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Israel admits using chemical weapons on Lebanon »
Posted by: _kam0_ 3 years, 1 month agoIsrael has acknowledged for the first time that it attacked Hezbollah targets during the second Lebanon war with phosphorus shells. White phosphorus causes very painful and often lethal chemical burns to those hit by it, and until recently Israel maintained that it only uses such bombs to mark targets or territory.
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Comments: 178
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geographer47
Oct. 22, 2006, 11:21 a.m."Phosphorus has been used by armies since World War I. During World War II and Vietnam the U.S. and British armies made extensive use of phosphorus. During recent decades the tendency has been to ban the use of phosphorus munitions against any target, civilian or military, because of the severity of the injuries that the substance causes."
There's no excuse for using phosphorous weapons! Urge your Senators to ratify the Third Protocol of the Geneva Convention on Conventional Weapons, which restricts the use of incendiary weapons.
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m-simon
Oct. 22, 2006, 6:26 p.m.I propose we end the use of knives, bullets, and bombs because of the pain and suffering they cause.
And fire. No use of fire in warfare. People can get burned.
No use of water because people can drown.
And no insults. People can get offended.
We need to civilize warfare. Just as soon as we civilize our enemies.
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berkeley
Oct. 22, 2006, 1:38 p.m."Some experts believe that phosphorus munitions should be termed Chemical Weapons (CW) because of the way the weapons burn and attack the respiratory system. As a CW, phosphorus would become a clearly illegal weapon.
The International Red Cross is of the opinion that there should be a complete ban on phosphorus being used against human beings and the third protocol of the Geneva Convention on Conventional Weapons restricts the use of "incendiary weapons," with phosphorus considered to be one such weapon."
when is a war crime not a war crime?
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jordan11
Oct. 22, 2006, 8:05 p.m.when is a war crime not a war crime?>>>>
When you or yours are committing the crime.
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Lurch
Oct. 23, 2006, 2:31 p.m.Why haven`t the US and Israel signed the Third Protocol of the Geneva Convention?
If this kind of weapon is not a CW than we/they wouldn`t have any problem signing it.
The real question is, how in the he11 do the idiots in charge expect our countries to stop terror if we`re using these types of weapons, especially on civilians!
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FrankieT
Oct. 22, 2006, 2:46 p.m.I am generally a supporter of Israel but this last conflict with Hezbollah, which Hezbollah began, gives me great concern. Lebanon was a US ally. Why did Israel feel they had the right to destroy the country in order to obtain justice. Why did they deliberately kill thousands of innocent Lebonese people and children? Why did they use the notorious cluster bombs? why did they use what most agree would be considered chemical weapons? Ok for Israel, but not Iraq?
The question is why Bush went along with all of this. We want to reduce violence from Arab nations? These actions show the blatant hypocrisy of our goverment. Fighting a war on terror in Iraq who was never a threat? Supporting this kind of action on Lebanon increases the threat. Protecting us from terror? why not release the records of Cheney's energy meetings? Are there national security issues involved? The American people have a right to know. How did those meetings affect other actions????
ciao.
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mamasan
Oct. 22, 2006, 6:43 p.m.Franki Agreed.
And the cluster bombs they left are still killing little kids....
Now why did they use those bombs???
Just sickening.
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SouthernBoy
Oct. 22, 2006, 8:16 p.m.The 'democratic experiment' in Lebanon was failing because of Hezbollah. The Lebanese government could not control them. For the sake of Lebanon, Hezbollah needs to be dealt with. It is too delicate a thing for the U.S. to do ourselves, and we thought we would let Israel do the dirty work. They could have succeeded too, had they been allowed to do what was necessary.
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NSWritie
Oct. 23, 2006, 6:17 a.m.David, Lebanon was occupied by Israel until 2000, thus giving rise to Hezbollah. It was then occupied by the Syrian military. Do you think they were going to disarm HZ? Syria eventually left in 2005. So that leaves exactly one year in which to disarm a heavily-armed and considerably popular resistance movement.
I don't see how that could happen. Also, when Israel left it didn't entirely leave (Shebba farms and other areas). It also maintained a policy of almost daily border incursions. So all the elements were there to spark a conflict.
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ThankYou
Oct. 23, 2006, 8:58 a.m.DavidHalko
Please get your facts right.
Lebanon IS NOT HIZBALLAH
As much as Israel is not the Shaas party!
Nor France is the LePen neo nazis.
They are a political party, and a very popular one thanks to Israel!!!
Israel has occupied, stole the land water and of Lebanon, killed and murdered any body who objecte to their presence in Lebanon, created a concentration camp for the opponents in Khyam etc...
Israel has refused to abide by more than 60 UN resolutions!!!
SHAME ON YOU ISRAEL!!!
and you are asking Lebanon, a country that has been occupied by Israel and Syria for more than 20 years, sucking the economy out of its soul, pushing any moderate person into siding with Hizb'allah as being the ONLY way to get justice done.
And Hizb'allah has been proven right! Israel only accepted to "partially" execute UN resolution and get out of Lebanon after 20 years of occupation BY FORCE!!!
SO Thank you Israel for making Hizb'allah so popular as to allow Hizb'allah into the parliament.
But just for your info, Lebanese law and politics ARE NOT the same as in Israel.
Hizb'allah IS in the government, but is not part of the decision making since they hold less than 33% of the seats.
And since you are so well informed, you should know that the Hizb'allah is working hard on bringing the present Lebanese government down because, thanks to israel, the government who was maybe afraid to receive an Israeli nuclear bomb, DID NOT SIDE 100% BY Hizb'allah during this last war.
SHAME ON YOU ISRAEL !!!!!!!
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ThankYou
Oct. 23, 2006, 8:47 a.m.Froggy57,
Please stop your lies and propaganda of intox information:
The cluster bombes were thrown on CIVILAN AREAS in Lebanon AFTER the cease fire was decided AND ACCEPTED BY ISRAEL, but Before it went into effect.
SHAME ON YOU ISRAEL !!!!!
Cluster bombs were thrown into villages, farms, planted fields, more than one million are still there waiting to kill kids.
Cluster bombs CANNOT slow down the trucks (destroying each and every bridge in Lebanon should have done that no???)
Cluster bombs were thrown ONLY to terrorise villagers and civilians from returning to there homes (thoses who still stand if any) ONE MILLION Lebanese ran away from the murdering Israeli machine.
The purpose of Israel was to create an internal conflict:
Most Lebanese who fled are Shia muslims, they hid mostly in churches and schools of the Christian areas in Lebanon. Israel was clearly aiming at creating a conflict between the Christians and the Shias by forcing the Shias out of the South and preventing them from coming back to their homes!!!
SHAME ON YOU ISRAEL!!!
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ThankYou
Oct. 23, 2006, 8:37 a.m.Frankie,
Please read the information right.
It is NOT Hizb'allah that started the conflict.
It is like saying that the French resistance started the war against the Nazis.
Hizb'allah tried to force Israel to abide by international law, and release the Lebanese civilians it holds prisoners WITHOUT TRIAL in it's dungeons.
Israel has been killing , stealing, oppressing, humiliating for many decades.
SHAME ON YOU ISRAEL !!!!!!
Hizb'allah just stood in the face of the oppressor one more time to ask Israel, who NEVER executes ONU resolutions (more than 60 in the waiting) except when FORCED to do so by it's ennemies, to free such Lebanese civilians.
So in your logic: if somebody steals your land, rapes your daughter and kidnaps your brother, is found GUILTY and sentenced to jail (but never goes to jail) sentenced to return the stolen land, but never does, is asked to free your kidnapped brother but says fcuk. Then 20 YEARS LATER AFTER ASKING FOR 20 F.... YEARS FOR THE EXECUTION OF LAW WITH NO RESULT, when you take one of his soldiers prisoner to ask for an exchange, then YOU started it????????
Come on!
Have some decency!!!!!
I am ready to accept your apologies if you show sincere remorse.
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rlgnmksustpd
Oct. 22, 2006, 3:12 p.m.The US has routinely given billions of dollars in aid to Israel, and little of nothing in comparison to the surrounding countries. The government has supported Israel unilaterally for decades, and we wonder why these countries hate the US. Even Bin Laden stated years before 9-11 their hatred of us was because of our support of Israel and its aggression against the Muslims. Until this last episode, the kidnapping of military (not civilians) was a generally accepted means of prisoner exchange. This time Israel used it a justification for attacking Lebanon.
For all their "we're just defending ourselves" rhetoric, Israel, because of unquestioning US support, has become the neighborhood bully.
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ThankYou
Oct. 23, 2006, 9:05 a.m.What if Israel does not protect the Israelis from the terrorists. Would you not agree that a group of Israeli civilinas should gather into a protection group?
I'm sure you do.
This is unfortunately what happened in Lebanon:
Israel has been terrorising the Lebanese for decades, humiliating, stealing, killing, kidnapping without ever abiding by international law, never executing ONU resolutions etc...
SHAME OU YOU ISRAEL !!!!
Lebanon was not able to protect its Civilians against Israeli state terrorism. The Hizb'allah has done so!
Thank you Israel for making the Hizb'allah such a popular party.
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tehranchik
Oct. 22, 2006, 11:28 p.m.If you want your eyes opened wide to what has happened creating and keeping Israel......"The Iron Cage" Rashid Khalidi. It takes you step by step through the whole process of giving Palestinian land to Isreal and the dehumanization of the Palestinian peoples. This started with the British long before any of us were born. Then continued through us into many more phases. Isreal gets away with what other countries would be attacked for. And...why was Isreal in Lebanon before this last war started?
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andy_f90
Oct. 22, 2006, 3:13 p.m.This is just sick and plain wrong.
Any moral person, non-partisan person would condemn this barbaric act against the collective punishment of an entire nation because 2 of Israel's soldiers were captured.
FoxNews and right-wing pundits like to talk about terrorism and Saddam's Chemical weapons, lets see them condemn this!
Don't count on it though, because Israel is fighting for its "survival" unlike the million Lebanese refugees and the "unfortunate" 1,000 civilians who paid with their dear lives for Israeli land, aerial, and naval aggression. Which by the way continues to this day, its just not being covered by the "fair and balanced" propaganda channels.
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eddie107
Oct. 22, 2006, 7:48 p.m.Hey Pansy, I mean andy, glad to see you back, you have been a topic of a lot of talk here lately because of your e-mailing people horrible hateful letters to them behind everyones backs. Including me, Remember al the comments about my mother and how I should have died in 911 and that I am a Jew lover? Funny how you have your e-mail inbox turned off, what kind of a coward are you?
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ThankYou
Oct. 23, 2006, 9:15 a.m.Wrong again DavidHalko,
you are saying that the UK should not talk to the IRA.
Instead the UK should bomb the hell out of Ireland, use cluster bombs, phosphore bombs, bring down the homes of all farmers to the ground when the IRA kills a UK policeman stationed in north Ireland...
Germany should bomb the hell out of Israel also, because an Israeli trained Lebanese (one of those a.holes who betrayed their country to become Israeli) was plotting less than 3 months ago, to make a terrorist attack on a German train...
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walden3
Oct. 22, 2006, 3:18 p.m.the US used white phosphorus during the raid of falluja. we must use WMD to prevent the use of WMD. it makes perfect in bipolar republican world.
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NSWritie
Oct. 23, 2006, 6:22 a.m.Interestingly, it is not considered a WMD by the US and Israel. I wonder what they would say if they were on the receiving end.
Besides, the use of WP here seems to be limited. The true scandal is the scattering of the cluster bombs as the Israeli military were leaving.
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walden3
Oct. 23, 2006, 8:38 a.m.it's not supposed to be used against personnel per geneva. oh, that's right geneva doesn't apply to the US because, no, no,no geneva doesn't apply to the targets because....no,no,no geneva doesn't apply because it's quaint.
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AJaye
Oct. 22, 2006, 3:35 p.m.White phosphorous is as much as chem weapon as bombs ..Used since WWI ..also napalm,flamethrowers, terrorist dislike them they prefer TNT on roadsides,or on suicide missions..Go Israel give them hell...
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FrankieT
Oct. 22, 2006, 3:36 p.m.Good to see some discussion on this because it is a complicated issue. I am not suggesting we not support Israel or its right to exist but I am suggesting we be careful in supporting actions we feel would be incoreect for any other country. Supporting does not include carte blanche.
Also, I feel our role in the lebanon mess was more than just supportive. We want new countries in the region as allies and then do nothing to stop or help Lebanon? somebody explain that to me. We thought Israel could destroy the terrorists but that assumption like many of this administrations was, as usual, faulty. So we allowed the lebanese people to suffer as a result of our 'thinking'. Despicable.
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SouthernBoy
Oct. 22, 2006, 8:06 p.m.Israel could have destroyed Hezbollah very quickly if the generals had been allowed to follow their plan. They wanted to conduct a swift, critical strike operation (shock and awe) that would have decimated the Hezbollah leadership within the first few minutes. But Israels' prime minister was afraid of how such a strong response would appear to the rest of the world, so he opted to restrict operations at first to the airforce. Big mistake, and the generals were not happy. Reportedly, the Israeli generals told him at the time that this would be the first war Israel would lose, and it would be his fault.
The generals plan would have destroyed Hezbollah within two weeks. It would have been more shocking to the world, but would have ended quickly, caused less civilian casualties, and actually succeeded in defeating the enemy. Now, Israel has only postponed a fight with what will in the future be a more formidable Hezbollah.
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Lurch
Oct. 22, 2006, 4:36 p.m.What part of International Law don`t you understand?
Third Protocol of the Geneva Convention.
Israel has a long record of breaking Intl law and their own laws. You need look no further than Lebanon or the illegal settlements (by Israeli law too!) that they have supported from decades ago.
Israel, by its actions, shows the only thing "twisted" here is the Israeli lack of any sense of humanity.
It`s sick that people, even Americans, defend those `Saddamites` to borrow an ugly term from the right wing.
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Lurch
Oct. 23, 2006, 3:15 p.m.WLDRLR,
[laughing]
Thanks for proving my point about you not understanding international law.
You`re mistaking the Third Convention for the Third Protocol. They`re different. If you took the time to do even a little research you would know that and wouldn`t need to be spanked on these boards.
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Hatt1
Oct. 22, 2006, 4:14 p.m.Walden3, wouldn't we all be bipolar then? We are arguing over a weapon and its legality. Oh, phosphorus burns people and gives them breathing problems, lets drop a 2 ton bomb instead, or maybe a MOAB. I almost don't even care about its legality because it KILLS people just like everything else. Maybe we should focus on the outcome of a weapon's use then how it does it.
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Lurch
Oct. 22, 2006, 4:54 p.m.The whole thing is just sick and wrong.
Makes me sick to my stomache to think that my tax dollars are helping support a bunch of CW murderers. These were innocent people, and our government stood by and covered for the murderers.
How can anyone support these disgusting excuses for politicians and human beings?
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FureKurss
Oct. 22, 2006, 5:09 p.m.A weapon is a weapon. They are going to kill anyway, but i guess we have to make it less painfull for the enemy...
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ThankYou
Oct. 23, 2006, 9:41 a.m.FureKurss
No sir, it is not the same.
As any educated person who has been through military training knows, the purpose of war IS NOT to kill the enemy. This is the purpose of War Criminals.
The weapons in a war are meant to create as much disruption in the enemy's organization: bullits are meant to wound without killing, hence forcing the enemy to have 5 soldiers out of order for each wounded soldier.
This is why the bullits in your M16 are different from the bullits in your hunting machine gun (in french it is called balle expansive) because in hunting the purpose is killing fast and clean, to cause minimum sufffering to the deer.
In wars, the purpose is to win while making as little casualties as possible so to pave the way for after war peace.
As any of you know, the war IS NOT between the soldiers, they are simply executing the orders of those who are at war (governments, politicians, religious leaders, brain washers etc...) and certainly NOT between the Pilot of the fighter jet, and the 5 year old girl who happens to live on the other side of the border.
Unless of course you are a war criminal and want to do ethnic cleansing or similar atrocities.
SHAME ON ISRAEL for being a war criminal!!!
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Donnaich
Oct. 22, 2006, 10:48 p.m.Yes, armies use weapons, but they also agreed, through the laws of land warfare and Geneva Conventions, not to use some weapons, because the effects of them were considered excessive. Things like poison gases, triangular bayonets, lead rounds.
General Curtis LeMay, in reference to what the Allies did at Dresden, Tokyo, Hiroshima, and Nagasaki, made a comment to the effect of "we had better win, because we will be hung as war criminals if we don't".
Just because a weapon is newer, and not specifically spelled out in the Conventions, does not mean it is morally right. Use of such weapons only gives "justification" to the other side for using increasingly horrific weaponry. Chemical weapons, biological weapons, nuclear weapons... there has to be a threshhold. Didn't we consider Germany barbaric for using Chlorine and Mustard in WWI?
Hezbollah are no angels, but it is barbarism on both sides that will never allow the prospects for peace.
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Donnaich
Oct. 23, 2006, 6:16 a.m.You can get a positive test for chlorine at a swimming pool.
You can get a positive test for nerve agents from organophospate insecticides, if I remember correctly. I've had training in WMD; you can get false positives depending on the test protocol. Was the camp in an area that saw the use of a weapon (Saddam vs. Kurds), or was it an Iraqi post that held them at some point? There are many ways to get a false positive. Not that I doubt that they're trying to get them, but we don't need to be condoning the use of this stuff by either side.
Israel has plenty of conventional weaponry, they don't need to use something questionable to fight. Weren't their people the ones who were being gassed in Germany? Amazing that they forgot THAT. And they've had more experience with it than we do.
It still is not justification for use of prohibited or questionable weapons.
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thaw
Oct. 22, 2006, 5:38 p.m.boys and girls.
all war sucks. and the fact that these weapons were used in WWI, WWII, and where-ever else, doesn't make the use of them now, acceptable. wake up, if we don't out law them, what's to keep them from being used against us, here at home?
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Donnaich
Oct. 23, 2006, 6:27 a.m.And you think we should emulate the terrorists? Are we going to use it because everybody else does?
I'm sorry, but I thought that excuse went out after grade school.
We can fight this war with what we already have "on the books"... the business end of a silenced 9mm can end those problems just as effectively. And without exposing civilians to prohibited weaponry.
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blog2006
Oct. 22, 2006, 6:01 p.m.WLDr
"Isreal has a pretty good record of following international law. "
This might sound good to you but it is so factually wrong it could be comical,if the reality of it was not so tragic.
Just check the number of UN resolutions (international law) that Israel violates,with US approval.
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blog2006
Oct. 22, 2006, 6:07 p.m.Israel does more than defend itself/it conducts colonial and regional bully policies.The Golan and Sheeba are the problem for peace with Syria.
The fact that it keeps many lebanse prisoners was the root of the problem with Hezbullah.
These policies will fail.
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m-simon
Oct. 22, 2006, 6:43 p.m.The Hizballah are great respecters of international law. They rained rockets on civilian areas of Haifa killing quite a few Israeli Arabs.
The Geneva Conventions are not a suicide pact.
BTW any proof that the Israelis used these weapons on civilians? Other than Hizballah fighters dressed as civilians? As opposed to anecdotal evidence? Any forensic proof?
Any proof the WP was aimed at fighters even?
Or was it used as a marker (the usual use) and fired at a target to mark it? Some times there are people in the marked target.
So is it better to have a few burned so the rest get bombed or should areas just be pounded with out markers to limit collateral damage?
Well I'm with you guys. Eliminate WP and go for carpet bombing instead. The Hizzies do that with rockets. The Israelis can use arty or bombing.
Be nice to see some actual facts.
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ThankYou
Oct. 23, 2006, 9:52 a.m.M Simon.
When did Hizb'allah rain rockets on civilina areas in Haifa???
Ah yes I remember, that was:
- After Israel bombed the Lebanese airport
- After Israel bombed milk factories
- After Israel bombed the wheat silos in Lebanon
- After Hizb'allah warned Israel that in wars civilians shoudl not be targetted
- After Hizb'allh warned israel that if it continues targetting civilians in Lebanon then Hizb'allah will retaliate by hitting Haifa.
- After Israel refused to negotiate the return of the 2 soldiers in return of the many Lebanese civilinas that are in Israeli Dungeons for more than a decade without a trial.
You are right, now I remember, Hizb'allah did rain in 30 days, the equivalent of one load of one Israeli plane in one raid over Lebenese civilians...
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Second question,
When did Hizb'allah commit suicide operations???
Now I remember: NEVER
Because unlike the israelis, they are not terrorists.
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deathray
Oct. 22, 2006, 8:07 p.m.mamasan -
in this you and i disagree.
the israelis use white phosphorous weapons because they were sold by the US, the same people who sold the cluster bombs...
i do not advocate the use of these weapons against a civilian populace, but there are issues regarding Israel's right to self defense that I am pretty clear on.
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mamasan
Oct. 22, 2006, 6:46 p.m.The best commentary on this stupid Isreal agression was a piece done by a chef who just happened to be in Lebanon when the bombs started dropping. He has a cooking show.
It was amazing how many Americans were there for Vacation. Whole families and not any help from the us and mostly just the cruelty ot Isreal.
Why did they not even give a crap about all the Americans that were there????
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m-simon
Oct. 22, 2006, 6:46 p.m.mamasan,
The Palestinians are much nicer. Especially since they have not done so well in killing more Israseli civilians lately and have turned their guns on each other.
http://powerandcontrol.blogspot.com/2006/10/descent-into-anarchy.html
http://powerandcontrol.blogspot.com/2006/10/defeated-commit-suicide.html
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NSWritie
Oct. 23, 2006, 6:30 a.m.I thought we were talking about Lebanon? And concerning Palestine, Hamas declared a shaky truce a year before coming to power (not that it did them any good). That might affect your statistics.
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mamasan
Oct. 22, 2006, 6:50 p.m.Yah know what I dont care...Isreal sucks...they need to take a look at themselves OK?
It is not OK to use cluster bombs....Tell me the point of that.
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mamasan
Oct. 22, 2006, 6:58 p.m.can you explain the use of cluster bombs???
maybe Isreal should just leave huh?
Who told them they could go in there with impunity anyway??
We did it to the Indians...they had plenty of examples that that kind of takeover would mean endless hostility.
they did that takeover in the modern age not the Dark ages.
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Donnaich
Oct. 23, 2006, 8:07 a.m.Yes, and what about the blankets of smallpox victims given to them so they would get smallpox? What of the our systematic destruction of the buffalo, to deny them of that plentiful food source?
So we didn't mistreat the Indian? Isn't that the same as denying the Holocaust?
If we go these routes, we are no better than the enemy. Might as well go straigh to nuclear, end it all, and let the cockroaches (the only sure survivors of a nuclear war according to radiation protection specialists) live in peace. Is that what we REALLY want?
I think not. So lets try toning down the rhetoric and talk some solutions!
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Romulus
Oct. 22, 2006, 7:10 p.m.M. Simon wrote:
"I propose we end the use of knives, bullets, and bombs because of the pain and suffering they cause. And fire. No use of fire in warfare. People can get burned. No use of water because people can drown. And no insults. People can get offended. We need to civilize warfare. Just as soon as we civilize our enemies."
First, you civilize yourself moron.
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Donnaich
Oct. 22, 2006, 10:57 p.m.I agree...
We do not have to call MS names because he expresses a different viewpoint. However, Romulus does have a point; if we cannot be civil ourselves, how can we expect others to be civil?
We do not need to lower ourselves to the standards of the extremists. If we don't, we stand higher in the regard of the moderate and civilized peoples of the world. I think that is a better idea.
We have enough "legal" weapons to kill each other effectively as it is.
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