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Religion: Freedom Versus Fundamentalism »
Posted by: populist 2 years, 6 months agoThomas Jefferson said religion was "a matter which lies solely between man and his God." Therefore, the citizens of the fledgling country Jefferson helped create would have an unparalleled freedom: To seek Truth and Knowledge without the leash of government telling them how to do it.
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Comments: 190
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CatholicRedneck
June 9, 2007, 11:08 a.m.LOL! Put me down in the camp of the pathological fundamentalists. Hey, I freely admit I share that much in common with the theocratic Muslims.
Religion is solely a matter between a man and his god, according to Thomas Jefferson - well, may he rest in peace. But he was full of crap on that score. If religion is nothing more than worshiping whatever your conscience tells you to, then all you're doing is worshiping yourself.
God, the real God, is powerful enough to make sure that each of us can learn what it is He wills us to do. Sorry, but it ain't His will that we worship our puny selves.
I can buy the argument that the US was established as a secular government. All the more reason to scrap the constitution [except for the parts I like (lol)] and establish a Christian theocracy. Those parts of the US that wouldn't want such a government should be free to secede and establish whatever kind of government they want.
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ind06
June 9, 2007, 11:56 a.m.I have sets of Jefferson's letters, the intelligence that shines through when you read them is simply phenomenal. To hear him described as "full of crap" is not only wrong but painfully crude. Mr. Jefferson deserves much much better, even in a put down.
Please, this is Thomas Jefferson you're talking about! Bring your 'A' game!
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Sideways_28
June 9, 2007, 12:53 p.m.The big problem with the article is the parallel between islam and christendom, the christians came here to be free and set up the free society to worship who and when you please, they were escaping the tyranical catholics, and as with anything humans do more tyranical people come along and try to force you to be something. On the flip side of this is the secular humanist who want to force me to not say God or Jesus in certain places, like schools and public gatherings of different kinds. So all tyrany needs to be stopped, not just certain kinds.
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ru4me
June 9, 2007, 1:18 p.m.Once again the First Amendment has been confused and trampled upon.
When will we ever wake up!
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crespi
June 9, 2007, 1:26 p.m.I'm really starting to turn towards polytheism.
Then one can choose the God that fits them best. And God can't be a jealous bully (like in Christianity, Judiasm and Islam) without some other gods standing up to Him. Built in checks and balances.
All hail Anubis...
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Rhialto
June 9, 2007, 2:55 p.m.People should feel free to persue any fantasy they please, as long as they are not infringing on other peoples rights.
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kbjohnson888
June 9, 2007, 3:39 p.m.Fundamentalism never questions itself. There is no chance that it can be wrong, because it is a belief in words, not a creator or spirit. It enforces it's beliefs by law and not example. Fundamentalism brings the inquisitions of the Catholic Church, the violent repressions of the Taliban, and the Salem Witch Trials of the American Puritans. It doesn't matter were Fundamentalism takes root, it will bring violence against those who don't agree with their beliefs. Paul continually warned to be on guard for false teachers as they sow discord and strife. What better description of Fundamentalism do we have than that? Fundamentalism is a false teaching that has crept into modern Christianity. Jesus rebuked Peter "Get behind me, Satan!" he said. "You do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men." This shows how easy it can be for Satan to do his work inside the Church or any spiritual movement.
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kbjohnson888
June 9, 2007, 3:52 p.m.We must remember the Christian Bible didn't come into existence for almost 400 years after Jesus. There was no literal interpretation of the Bible in the early Church because the Bible as we know it didn't exist. Jesus felt no need for writing anything down as he taught by example.
In Fundamentalism the example is an angry wrathful God determined to punish. It coerces conversion and adherence by threat and fear. You see nothing of the compassion, mercy, tolerance, and forgiveness of Jesus. In Fundamentalism they only use Jesus as a shield between themselves and a wrathful God. They do nothing to embody the teachings of Jesus or follow his example by bringing compassion, forgiveness, charity and comfort to the poor and weary of the world. They constantly pray for protection from the perceived evil they see around them. They see themselves as the Chosen People which are constantly under siege by the Devil, and are paralyzed to help anyone outside their own communities. I was there.
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elel
June 9, 2007, 5:12 p.m.Great article! The comparisons were well thought out and written. Past histories along with the not so past should really hit home how dangerous and lacking of liberty a totally religious based government would be.
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mossback
June 9, 2007, 5:14 p.m.So, putting aside the debate -- are we free to be fundamentalist Christians if we want? Is that the freedom that the Constitution states with the establishment clause? Or is it just that the Government won't establish a religion and tax us to support it like they do in the UK? And what is a religion anyway? The end state of 'Islam' is a government -- so isn't it a political party and not a religion? This debate sidesteps all the core issues.
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droid3913
June 9, 2007, 5:24 p.m.People you need to repect other peoples religious beliefs. This is the big problem we have in our world. DO NOT force your beliefs on someone else. I am a Catholic. I respect other religions. I ask the same in return.
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amazed
June 9, 2007, 6:32 p.m.((But it's the first ten words of that First Amendment which declare, in no uncertain terms, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion.))
But why is the rest of the clause -- "nor prohibit the free expression thereof" not equally telling and important? Is that not also part of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights?
Do we get to pick which clauses of the Constitution and Bill of Rights we like and discard the rest?
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agentX
June 9, 2007, 7:10 p.m.I like this part of the article the best
"Fundamentalists are nothing less than our own Taliban wannabes. They stand for a perverse rape of the Constitutional wall of separation, theological dominion over a "land of the free." It's worse than disingenuous: it is traitorous to American liberty, including religious freedom itself."
Not only that, their actions 'in the name of God' pose a threat to the rest of the world, as Bush said when he delivered the now-infamous line:"I'm driven with a mission from God. God would tell me, 'George, go and fight those terrorists in Afghanistan.' And I did, and then God would tell me, 'George go and end the tyranny in Iraq,' and I did."
So we as voters have a duty to keep these people out of power, marginalized, and on the fringe in their Waco's and Elhoim City, where they can't destroy the rest of the world or initiate the apocalypse because of the mortgages and closet homosexuality.
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kbjohnson888
June 9, 2007, 9:07 p.m.Jesus also taught that his kingdom is not of this world, and do not to store up treasures on this earth. Both Jesus and Paul also told us that Satan was the ruler of this earth, but Fundamentalists still insist on accumulating wealth and power on this earth which we see continually corrupts their leaders. Yet Fundamental "Dominionist" leaders want to take over government and continually speak about establishing God's Kingdom on earth. Only God, and not man can do this, and this will happen when ever the Second Coming occurs, not before, and not by man. Fundamenta... Jewish,or Hindu) act as if their God is so weak and powerless that he has no control or power over his own creation to implement His own plan and they must do the work for Him. What ever happened to "Let go and let God."
"Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art a stumbling-block unto me: for thou mindest not the things of God, but the things of men."
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aceofspades1
June 9, 2007, 9:09 p.m.someone who has had religion pounded into their psyche since childhood has no free will
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aceofspades1
June 9, 2007, 10:13 p.m.ever hear it said - "religion is the opiate of the masses"
it is the truest thing I know
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aceofspades1
June 9, 2007, 11:49 p.m.pphifer- you simply put you own definition upon the word"god" given that what you say verges on the truth. However I could just as easily use the word "dog" and say a dog is something you love & trust & have hope in above all, so for me anything could be a dog if I use your reasoning.
P.S. you don't have to believe in an athiest - they are here whether you believe they are or not.
Perhaps you8 mena you don't believe anyone is a true atheist, but then you would have to use your faulty reasoning , so like it or not some of us do not believe in a God.
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SultanME
June 10, 2007, 12:49 a.m.Contrary to popular beleif Islam gaurantees freedom of Religion. There are many verses in the Qur'an that emphasize this fact, like: 'There is no compulsion in Religion', 'To you your religion and to me mine' and the various other verses that allow the 'people of the book' (Jews and Christians) to worship their own way. The Taliban is NOT synonymous with Islam and Islam is innocent of how some Muslims deliberatly misinterpret its verses and Laws.
I have seen many Christian (anti-Islamic) sites jump on the oppertunity given to them by Taliban-type of sites and pretended that Islam is a religion that forces its followers to do anything at all.
Islam fought Pagans (Mushriks) but not Jews and Christians nor did it ever compel ANYONE, Jew, Christian or Muslim to worship in a certain way or to observe his religion in a certain way.
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edromar2
June 10, 2007, 1:04 a.m.George Washington told the ruler of Algiers that the US is not a Christian nation. We are a secular nation that allows all people freedom to aceept and serve their own religions--or not as their consciences and reason dictate. Only thereby can we have a free society.
But to not "establish" a religion mean not to use any means or influence or status of any government to in any way bring added respect, importance or wealth to any religion of rejection of religion. It just is non of the governments business to do anything to encourage or discourage, enhance or deprive any religion or anti religious individual of vitality. Only then can we avoid all jealousy and feelings that our persons and tax dollars are being used to provide any preference for any other religion.
Those who want government to favor a "right to life" policy that is favored by their religion in spite of the 1st and 14th amendments just don't understand how sweeping religious freedom.
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solomonskey
June 10, 2007, 1:37 a.m.The misconception that the founding fathers of America were devout Christians has been documented by historians. They weren't even Deists, nor was our system of government
based upon the Ten Commandments. What they truly feared, what was their worst possible nightmare, for some, has become a mandate of the few who believe they have the God given authority to impose it upon the many: Christian Theocracy.
Separation of church and state, not the Ten Commandments, not the Bible, was their basis and foundation when they drafted the constitution.
Freedom of speech, thought, disention, belief were the mechanisms set in place to insure against Theocracy of any form.
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goodgrief
June 10, 2007, 4:56 a.m."How is this so different from the words of former Taliban spiritual leader Mullah Mohammed Omar who . . . oversaw the campaign to destroy all his country's ancient Buddhist statues And what reason for this destruction? Omar explained: "I don't care about anything else but Islam."
How different!? I don't hear any Christians calling for the murder of non-believers.
Meanwhile, in San Diego schools, we are paying for muslim girls to be taught arabic so they can read the koran in its original language. We're paying for them to be in segregated classrooms. We're even paying for separate buses for them. While Christmas break has been changed to winter break. While Easter break has been changed to spring break. Etc. etc.
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goodgrief
June 10, 2007, 6:56 a.m.Are you kidding!? Catholic kids have to attend and pay for religious classes outside of public school. Jewish kids, likewise along with the study of Hebrew. Christianity, prayer, and even a meditation period are banned from schools.
Thanks to the ACLU there's not room anywhere for faith and tolerance.
AND YET a form of government, a public school system, is paying for the accommodation of the muslim faith. What f-ing sense does that make!?
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OldRusty
June 10, 2007, 8 a.m.Arent we so glad old Tom J, has passed and gone away,most of what he said and done, is so out-dated, it no longer applies to US,.The founding fathers BS, is usually only applied when it benefits those who are attempting to abuse some type of political agenda,.Dems,, Gop., Right and left., what a crock of Crap.The news, should be reporting events, not attempting to create spectical., as it does now.the public needs to jerk a knot in the ass of the elected and get the professional political agendas back where it should be.
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ETproductions
June 10, 2007, 9:04 a.m.It seems to me that if, as the Bible instructs us, God made man in order that we might freely love our creator, then God would not want mankind compelled to worship, compelled to pray in a certain way.
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