Waterboarding Used to Be a Crime »
Posted By deathray 1 year, 8 months ago in NewsThat we might consider waterboarding a reasonable interrogation technique ays a lot about how far we've fallen, as a moral power in the world. Evan Wallach tells us what the technique is really all about.
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deathray
Hm...summarizing a life...Investment banker, sailor, unintentional gourmet cook. Ex US Naval officer, also Foreign Service. Split my time between NYC and Miami Beach ...
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deathray1 year, 8 months ago
I am personally appalled that we HAVE to have the national discussion on whether or not waterboarding is torture. Evan Wallach talks about the technique in detail.
It's also of note that Daniel Levin, then acting assistant attorney general, went to a military base near Washington and underwent the procedure to inform his analysis of different interrogation techniques.
"After the experience, Levin told White House officials that even though he knew he wouldn't die, he found the experience terrifying and thought that it clearly simulated drowning.
Levin, who refused to comment for this story, concluded waterboarding could be illegal torture unless performed in a highly limited way and with close supervision."
http://abcnews.go.com/WN/DOJ/story?id=3814076&p...
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engineer1 year, 8 months ago
Remember in a dictatorship as is America now, anything the dictator (Bush/Cheney) says is the way it is otherwise you'll become an enemy combatant without legal recourse.
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quicksilver06021 year, 8 months ago
Excellent post and accompanying link, DR.
People have been tried and convicted for using this barbaric technique for over a century. How can we think ourselves civilized if we are able to redefine animalistic behavior as humane?
Ask anyone with breathing problems what it feels like to drown.
I knew a woman who, in the months just prior to her death, developed severe issues with her lungs. She was in an enormous amount of pain - excruciating pain - for the entire six years of her illness yet she confided that of all the pain she endured, not being able to breathe was BY FAR the most terrifying and uncomfortable feeling she'd ever experienced. She even said she wouldn't wish it upon her worst enemy - and she meant that.
There are those who argue "but it's effective."
Brilliant - so was the SS but that doesn't make something right or the best vehicle towards the greater good.
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jk54891 year, 8 months ago
Let's remember the context here. We are at war. This isn't done for sport. The subjects are no angels. They are enemy combatants tied to terrorism. If enhanced interrogation techniques have stopped terror attacks against Americans then they are justified. The so-called 'torture' methods are certainly not pleasant, but they are means of breaking down a person psychologically until they spill the beans. No permanent physical damage. No death. Not even severe pain. I suppose if you had a choice between saving thousands of American lives or not waterboarding you choose the latter. It is our government's primary obligation to protect its citizens.
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JJ19611 year, 8 months ago
Dear Deathray, Engineer and other way-far-2-the-left-socialists :
First, let's return from idealism to reality.
It's CONGRESS who are supposed to pass laws. If the Democrat leaders want waterboarding banned, let's see how many of them will support such a bill, THEN, how many of them will actually VOTE for it on record?
Having done that, let's say we now suddenly capture a foreign ARAB terrorist who is in the middle of setting off a nuclear device, planted next to your house in your city! And let's say that Hillary Clinton is now President! We have 24 hours to get from the terrorist the who, what, when, why and where of this plot.
But we can't waterboard him. We can't lay a hand on this guy in any way.
I wonder how long it would take before you'd be on the phone to Hillary Clinton in the White House begging her to get this terrorist to talk?
On the other hand, she'd have already beat you to it!
Different when it's YOUR President-YOUR house, isn't it?
Have a nice day.
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william-sire1 year, 8 months ago
Evan Wallach ... what an idiot. There are real evil people trying to take our lives and freedom. These are not meassures we take to win an election or because we believe our way of life should be the way of the world. We are protecting our lives and freedom against an evil aggressor and I for one would rather be alive and free than a victim of a tyrant. If water boarding helps to defend my life and freedom then it should be done. If the nutcase Evan Wallach doesn't think so then let him speak with action. He can take point to ferret out the enemy then I'll pick them off after he is dead.
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jordan111 year, 8 months ago
There are a few flaws in your argument. One is that we have 'tortured' people who had nothing to do with wanting to take your life or freedom. Another is, we are a nation of laws, which this administration has spit on. Another is, you have already lost some of your freedom, thanks to your own government.
Why does an administration that has made so many mistakes not concern you? Why do you ignore our unprotected infrastructure, our attacking another nation under false pretenses, the growing unrest and hatred of us in the middle east? Why can't you recognize that things are worse, not better on the issue of terrorism? You're afraid. Fear has limited your ability to reason.
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MonkeyBiz1 year, 8 months ago
You sir, are the idiot if you think that torture can do anything to help "protect our way of life." It accomplishes just the opposite. Our way of life does not include torture and tyranny.
If you can locate a US Army interrogation field manual, you'll discover what interrogation experts know; Torture produces unreliable information. Always has, always will.
Torture may give you a sense of revenge and justice, but as an interrogation method, it is of dubious value, and places American troops at risk if they become POWs in any future conflict.
Torture should be morally repugnant to anyone that believes in American values and justice.
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AnteUp1 year, 8 months ago
William Sire ~
"Waterboarding" - sounds so hygienic - how could anyone
object?
Want to offer the rationalization for the incisions made
on the chest and penis of Benyamin Mohammed al-Habashi FOR
US, in Morocco..........for 18 months? Man! That ticking bomb scenario must have had a very long fuse - eh? Plus - after the 18 months in Morocco - at our behest - he was sent to "The Dark Prison" in Afghanistan for MORE torture before we finally shipped him to Gitmo. According to his lawyer and human rights groups - there is evidence of the injuries to
his genitals - but it's CLASSIFIED - so don't expect to
have the findings released anytime soon. His lawyer knows
because of pix shown to him at Gitmo - but what happens
at Gitmo...........stays at Gitmo.
It is a lie that these procedures are being used to
keep us safe. We have hurt the victims and we have allowed
our government to victimize our soldiers ordered to carry out this policy.
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GHOSTWHOWALKS1 year, 8 months ago
William you are a complete idiot and a fool. Give me five minutes and I bet you'll be saying anything just to get me to stop torturing you. Nothing of any value is accomplished by torture as the one being tortured will say, do anything to get it to stop. Quote, "when one is willing to give up some right for safety, one loses both" Unquote.
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DeadXXXManXXXTalkin1 year, 8 months ago
''If water boarding helps to defend my life and freedom then it should be done.''
so if your life or freedom can be benefited by taking away the 'life' and freedom of others, so be it?
I think that is pretty much the definition of 'unchristian', if christianity's definitive credo is 'Do unto others as you would have them do to you'
what's that word 'antithetical'? I really should transplant my dictionary to this new machine
anyway these are perilous times for simple reason, apparently, but when you have a christian prez signing off on such things, it ain't all that surprising.
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CaptainLucid1 year, 8 months ago
War on an evil aggressor? Damn I had no idea that Iraq attacked us with no provocation. Thanks for clueing me in. By the way where can I find the "real" news. My local paper said that Saddamn had no WMDs but I know that can't be true because our soldiers are dying in Iraq therefore there must have been WMDs and all Iraqis sole purpose in life is to blow up an American soldier.
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lvrofwolves1 year, 8 months ago
Yes and didn't alot of German soldiers run towards the west where they new they wouldn't be treated unfairly by American soldiers, like they were with Russian soldiers? and that was during a real war, for real reasons, against real enemies.
Suspected means just that, suspected. So many of our definitions have been changed by the 'decider' and this administration.
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lvrofwolves1 year, 8 months ago
Yes and didn't alot of German soldiers run towards the west where they knew they wouldn't be treated unfairly by American soldiers, like they were with Russian soldiers? and that was during a real war, for real reasons, against real enemies.
Suspected means just that, suspected. So many of our definitions have been changed by the 'decider' and this administration.
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Amazing11 year, 8 months ago
Time and again it has been proven that torture does not work. Therefore, william sire, I suggest another technique. How about we treat them well. Give them nice clean beds and plenty of DVDs to watch. Things like "Bambi" and "Snow White" Nothing but sheer pap. Give them the food they like and no input except for sappy type movies, sappy music. After a week or so, they may be kinder, gentler people and ready to talk willingly.
Torture is wrong on so many levels. If you endorse it for others, it can happen to you. What, you say? You don't think you know anything the "terrorists" would want to know? It's a case of mistaken identity? No worry. By the time they get through with you, you'll be ready to confess to anything and tell them anything they want to hear.
And someone eles's torture is worth YOUR life? Give me a break.
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tanglang1 year, 8 months ago
"Give them nice clean beds and plenty of DVDs to watch. Things like "Bambi" and "Snow White" Nothing but sheer pap"
The aclu would say that forcing them to watch those movies would violate their civil rights.
"By the time they get through with you, you'll be ready to confess to anything and tell them anything they want to hear. "
I'm willing to bet dollars to doughnuts that William, much like myself is armed to the teeth and would not be worried about terrorists capturing him.
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Spadecaller1 year, 8 months ago
The Geneva Convention, of which the U.S. had once subscribed to, states that prisoners should be treated with "respect to their persons" and with "dignity".
Stripping prisoners naked and exposing them is also prohibited according to international law.
Waterboarding is not a recreational sport. Yet, according to Dick Cheney, "Waterboarding is a no brainer." Those were his exact words respecting the practice of using it to interrogate prisoners.
Lastly, the only information a prisoner has to provide is their name, rank, and serial number. If all they have is their name, than that is all they are required to provide according to the Geneval Convention.
The Bush Administration has dissolved our compliance to the mandates of the Geneva Convention. Many people including Americans will suffer the consequences of this barbaric breach of ethics.
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Endoscopy1 year, 8 months ago
What everybody here that is ranting doesn't understand is the law of the country and rules that the military have to follow. The law and military rules state "torture is the inflicting of severe pain or permanent injury". Water boarding does not come under this definition. Could that possibly be why Cheney said what he said.
Also water boarding done by the US is different than described in this story. Water never touches the person. They have a plastic wrap over the face instead of cloth.
Ignorance of the law is no excuse in front of a judge. Maybe that should apply to ranters.
A major problem with changing the law is this was written to be very clear. I heard a marine captain talk about this issue. He said that any change to the law must be done very carefully. There was a change to the law being discussed and the captain said that version would be extremely confusing and not enforceable since it was very fuzzy in intent.
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Poulenc1 year, 8 months ago
To put it another way, how could water boarding--an extreme method of coercion applied to prisoners from whom information is wanted as a prerequisite to the act--NOT be torture?
What it comes down to, sadly, is the "torture" mentality--authoritarians with, apparently, a punitive-sadistic bent--versus those who have no need to see others brutalized, to have their country indulge in acts that are as depraved as those they ostensibly wish to rid the world of.
Torture is barbaric. America should not behave barbarically. Let us act on our much vaunted (but of course stirringly admirable) ideals.
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DarkWizard1 year, 8 months ago
Waterboarding is torture. Torture is illegal. Torture does not give the desired results. If torture were so effective the U.S. would know all the hiding places of the insurgents, where OBL is, and any other enemy of the state.
We have criminals in office admitting that they use torture. We have an enabling Congress and Supreme Court ignoring the fact that crimes have been committed and therefore have become complicit in these crimes.
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tomboy5011 year, 8 months ago
The Post published another article on this last month. I'm glad it is being brought up repeatedly.
In 1947, the U.S. Called It a War Crime; in 1968, It Reportedly Caused an Investigation http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/ar...
I agree with deathray above. The fact that this country is even having this debate is appalling..
Then again, who would have guessed 7 years ago that we would be having the 'branches of government' checks and balances discussion...or fighting for habeus corpus...or having to remind our own leaders of all these other Constitution 101 issues that we all learned in high school civics classes.
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puffin1 year, 8 months ago
"performed in a highly limited way and with close supervision."
Gotta mix it up, y'know .. too much of anything becomes a bore and we're only talking waterboarding. Lots more "hot hits" to throw into the mix.
One can also rest assured that it will be done with "close supervision" ... and with glee.
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AnteUp1 year, 8 months ago
There was a lot of prejudice in this country in the 50's and
60's - we weren't perfect. Still have a long way to go but
we had a belief in Americans as "the good guys" - we wore
the white hats....or so we felt, on issues of human rights.
I still feel that what I will relate here is part of what
tore this nation apart - during and after VietNam.
Early 1960's - a black and white photo in Life magazine -
a No.Vietnamese on the ground next to a pig sty on his back,
blindfolded and gaged and other men crouched around
him.....doing something. There were So.Vietnamese
soldiers standing and laughing with American "advisors" as
they watched - the procedure. I had to ask my Mom what
was happening to the man on the ground. Well, they were
pouring water up his nose.....they were toruring him.
I remember asking,"Why doesn't the American soldier
stop them, Mom?" She assured me that my Uncle,in Special
Forces,wouldn't do anything like that.
Continued ~
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AnteUp1 year, 8 months ago
Continued ~
Do I know that "stuff" happens during war? You bet. I recognize that it is NOT a tea party and we have been
involved in incidents before - but VietNam took some
of our best and brightest and broke their belief in
themselves as the rescuers of the brutalized when we
not only allowed - but promoted policies of torture.
The young teen that I was in the 60's had a very difficult
time processing the idea that someone might hesitate to
approach a U.S. soldier out of FEAR. I was raised that
police officers and soldiers were your friends - they'd help you out. What message are we sending now? Why don't you ever see the DANGER to us? Do you look forward to guys schooled in torture coming home? The ideal "Be All You Can Be"
should NOT include torture skills!
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coolwhip1 year, 8 months ago
It seems that when US soldiers commit acts like torture and killing of civilians, when in the past US soldiers have been "rescuers of the brutalized", they have a greater likelehood of getting PTSD. It also would explain why WWII soldiers rarely got it but VietNam war soldiers frequently have it and Gulf War soldiers and Iraq War soldiers seem to be suffering from it more than previous wars.
http://www.usafa.edu/isme/JSCOPE05/Kilner05.html
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MonkeyBiz1 year, 8 months ago
As a veteran I can tell you unequivically that soldiers are NOT trained to torture. We were trained to observe the Geneva Conventions which specifically forbids torture and requires that we treat captives with respect and dignity (this was a very difficult thing to do).
Torturing a captive combatant is a war crime.
The US Army's Field Manual on interrogation techniques dismisses torture as an unreliable way to collect information, and reminds soldiers that it is forbidden by the UCMJ and the GCs.
The military is not doing the torturing, the CIA apparently is at the bidding of the chickenhawk neocons that do not know any better, and do not have the moral sensitivity or common sense to see torture for what it is, a useless information gathering method and a war crime.
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Obaku1 year, 8 months ago
What is on the rest of the list?
SCHIP?
Immigration?
"Security and Prosperity Partnership"?
Taking resources out of Afghanistan in order to invade and occupy Iraq?
Trillions of dollars in deficit spending?
Executing the mentally retarded?
PLEASE!
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bluekrypton1 year, 8 months ago
Just about everyone on here agrees that its torture - kinda obvious really and any fool can see that it is. What amazes me is that given that many of the posts on here are probably from Americans, then why is the US still allowing the use of torture? Maybe its time for you guys to vote in a new government. The US has a great history of freedom and respect for human rights, please let it all go to waste.
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Boz441 year, 8 months ago
As our current helsmen/women and whatevers continue to skirt the issue regarding WaterBoarding and whether tis torture or not and etc, suggest that we start with Bush, as the supremed decider , experience such first hand so as to be in a better positon to determine if such IS torture and while unergoing such, perhaps extract the "truth" from him on a number of pertinent subjects that many continue to find questionable. How about if Alberto be subjected to such procedure...perhaps would prompt HIS memory to point that he could recall of just why such procedure was deemed TORTURE and perhaps even give him a glimmer as to why we should NOT endorse such tactics !!
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scott42611 year, 8 months ago
Clinton...(bleeeeech!...)
Kennedy...(bleeeeeech!...)
Gore...(bleeeeeeeech!...)
Pelosi...(bleeeech!...)
God, it just never stops with you people, does it?
Try to stay on topic....
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MaryLynn_1 year, 8 months ago
TORTURE IS TORTURE NO MATTER WHAT WAY YOU LOOK AT IT. MAYBE WE SHOULD FIND A WAY TO GET RID OF THE ELECTORAL COLLEGE. THEN THE VOTING WOULD BE IN THE PEOPLES HANDS ONCE AND FOR ALL.
EXCELLENT ARTICLE DEATHRAY, QUICKSILVER THANK YOU FOR SENDING THE LINK
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Endoscopy1 year, 8 months ago
Read the law. That law defines torture. All the ranting here does not change the law. This has been used in only a small amount of cases where information was crucial. Get informed before you rant.
Before you get rid of the electoral college you need to think through the result of that. There is a reason for it.
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tanglang1 year, 8 months ago
MaryLynn, If you look on your keyboard you will see a key that says "Caps Lock". Do us a favor and press it one time.
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