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Propeller's Incorrigibles »
Posted by: Spadecaller 2 years agoWhen exchanging ideas in Propeller's vast cyberspace, members often encounter malevolent verbal assaults that one would find in a sleazy barroom hall at the town's edge. Have you had enough? What happens when Propeller's terms of use are ignored? What are your experiences?
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Spadecaller
Welcome to my profile. About me: I'm an artist of several kinds; from bull to painting. I don't spare too many words. Most ...
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Comments: 968
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Spadecaller
Nov. 27, 2007, 8:05 a.m.The level of debate at Propeller matters to many of us. I'm sick of personally abusive commentary that targets member's race, age, sex, nationality, ethnic background, or disability. What about you?
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Amazing1
Nov. 27, 2007, 8:22 a.m.I know of at least two people who have left because they were sent PMs that were abusive and insulting. Personally, the people who do this kind of thing are usually immature and not very bright. They do not want a discussion. What they really want is an opportunity to vent their venom. And they do not care in the least about the recipient of their poison. When I find abuse directed at me I do report it. And then I make a voodoo doll. That'll fix 'em.
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sumptuousdigs
Nov. 27, 2007, 8:28 a.m.Amazing1 . ... A voodoo doll! Wow! Could you send a little gris gris my way?
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getreal1
Nov. 27, 2007, 8:30 a.m.Although I do not care to be harassed, ETC. It is something that I have gotten use to. With out it that harasser can not show just how stupidly close minded he or she may be. In my World of many different people A human being, is a human being, I feel they should act like it. If not, then treat them as they wish to be treated. Let see there is a Dog, an As----, and several endless things that people wish to be treated like. It all depends on their ego trip.
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Nowalive
Nov. 27, 2007, 8:33 a.m.Spade,
Excellent piece. As you know I have often been attacked for being a 2 service veteran, with comments such as my being brainwashed to kill for the government. While this is one of the mildest personal attacks, it still has escalated during bitter, vicious attacks directed toward me and my family for our PERSONAL OPINIONS. I try to avoid being drawn into such arguementative rantings. My opinions are my opinions and I am entitled to them, but I must be prepared to be browbeaten by people who have no sense of what a debate really is. For a time I avoided NS/Propeller for that reason. I have even had "serial neggers" follow me and give me negative votes for things such as holiday and birthday wishes, and wishing friends speedy recoveries. It is very annoying, but since this is an "all in" site, I doubt that the powers that be will do much.
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canadianrancher57
Nov. 27, 2007, 8:35 a.m.My fisrt 16-18 maybe we could even push that to 20 of life consisted of the real life form of this site, my attitude was terrible and in real life it ususally led to fights. When I became a member I knew about most of the qualities of this site both good and bad. I to date have not really been the target of much abuse but it does concern me when I see personal attacks on people because I don't know anyones situation and if a person uses a word such as cripple we do not know how it may offend the party to who it is directed. I came here to debate and I don't give negs and I try not to insult. Most of what you mention in your post I have faced in the real world and I grew because of it, but I do agree that assults on members is unacceptable,how to deal with it is another question though. Each person seems to set their own standards and I find it very hard to judge people if their standards are different than mine.
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doppich
Nov. 27, 2007, 8:38 a.m.It does seem, sometimes, that I'm back on usenet, which I've not read in over a year. But watch out for Christmas vacation, when the kiddies have full access to mommy's computer during the day and get to try out the new words they've learned in school this year.
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Nowalive
Nov. 27, 2007, 8:47 a.m.You are absolutely right Amazing. The most venomous comments come from typically the 16-25 age range. They don't have enough life experience to even be that angry(IMHO). When someone who has not been in the real world yet attacks me, I just think to myself "Mommy must have started charging rent for the basement".
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canadianrancher57
Nov. 27, 2007, 8:57 a.m.I've been just called a hypocrite, not by a member but by my wife, and I must confess it is true. I sometimes see when the same person is giving negs to everone then I check and see if the person has given any comments on anything and if it is a good comment I give them a pos. Sort of sick I know, but revenge is sweet.
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CactusAnnie
Nov. 27, 2007, 8:57 a.m.Great article Spadecaller, thanks! Good subject to open up!
For the huge majority of the people who come here this is a wonderful place to discuss ideas and have a little fun with the propeller community.
Occasionally you do see those who make you wonder what is the matter with them. It's often hard to see into someones motivations and hopes through a computer screen. A lot of times when a person is acting their most hateful its when they need the most understanding. I have seen the propeller neighborhood be really great in helping deal with a few like that.
Then there are others who are just absurdly hateful and seem to magically disappear after a time. All in all, I have found this to be a great "hang-out" with wonderful, polite people and good humor! Lots of fun!
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Dicax_Maximus
Nov. 27, 2007, 9:13 a.m.Excellent article SC....
I've had my own run-ins with a select few members, but have (OK, it took a while....) finally learnt the power of the "block".....
I have been known to report abusive posts, when, IMO, they have overstepped the bounds of "passionate" debate.
I agree with one particular query in the piece, isn't it down to the "site" to "control" the more extreme members ?
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tonks21
Nov. 27, 2007, 9:20 a.m.I've had people slam things that I have written and even though I would love to respond to them and get into a heated debate I find also that it is best to just ignore them. You never want to sink onto their level. If they were to leave their comments in a more mature manner than they might make a bigger impact on other people.
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gamahuche
Nov. 27, 2007, 11:16 a.m.I've seen you getting more than a fair share of abuse from people whom you have negged.
I personally have no qualms about hitting the BAD button as often as I hit the good one BUT I also greatly wish that those buttons were called AGREE/DISAGREE.
It would prevent people from feeling that they are being "picked on".
That said I know quite well when I'm likely to incur negs and some days I may not feel like it and won't deal with a particular thread. It may be chickening out a little but hey - this is my leisure activity and sometimes its important to feel one's best for a certain meeting or other activity.
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jovial
Nov. 27, 2007, 3:13 p.m.Exactly my tactic. I give more positives than negatives. Positives are given for comments I agree with and negatives for comments I TOTALLY disagree with. I usually will not neg a person unless they're just being vindictive, insulting, or is spreading misinformation. If a person makes their point of view and isn't insulting, 9 out of 10 times, I'll just ignore the comment. My principles for sinking a story follows the same criteria. If you are trying to spread hate, I'll be the first to sink your story. I don't believe in hate period!
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Spadecaller
Nov. 27, 2007, 10 a.m.Tessylo:
Thank you for your forthright and candid comment.
I never sink stories, but I do cast negative votes on comments. Like Amazing1, I also will not hesitate to report abusive content and spamming when it inteferes with the topic under review. Sometimes, unfortunately, I also react to insults. I'm working on that one.
Your infractions and mine are commonplace; it is the hardcore incorrigibles who pose a different issue for us.
Those of us who can endure these maladjusted souls can weather their tirades; but some of us, who have more modest personalities, are often devastated by this conduct.
Doesn't the community and Propeller owe them their best efforts to help enforce those who have blatant disregard for the terms of use, which the rest of accept willingly?
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SonOfTheMask
Nov. 27, 2007, 10:13 a.m.I have used the Report button many times for egregious abuse. I have rarely seen any action taken in recent months. I have also made a few direct messages to James Marcus and he has responded pretty well. Overall, I think Propeller is understaffed to handle abusive members and/or sock puppets.
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Francisca
Nov. 27, 2007, 10:17 a.m.That's the problem: to determine where is the limit of " the liberty of Expression". What is an insult for the one is not for the other! As far as I am concerned I don't give neg votes anymore. When I don't agree, I don't vote, that's all!!
But believe me Spadecaller we are very lucky to be able to "speak" as we do here. We are between polite and civilized people, but of course we are all different. It is wealth of the debates ( LOL )
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Spadecaller
Nov. 27, 2007, 10:28 a.m.Francisca,
I thought commentary that targets member's race, age, sex, nationality, ethnic background, or disability violates Propeller's terms of use. I happen to agree with those terms.
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tdrapeau
Nov. 27, 2007, 10:35 a.m.@Spadecaller: Thanks for the post and discussion.
To all: We strive to respond to as many member reports as we possibly can. You can always, always send sitemail to me (tdrapeau) or James (JamesMarcus) to alert us to abusive comments.
I enjoy good banter as much as the next person, but we don't tolerate excessive abuse.
That being said, do you all think that the member base is better equipped to respond to this type of abuse more quickly than the site staff? There are sites out there that arguably do a great job at meta-moderation, i.e. watching the watchers, and we could employ a similar mechanism.
I always thought that Propeller members would prefer we handle the riff raff :-), but if we aren't responding fast enough, maybe we should consider doing things a bit different.
Thoughts?
Tom
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Spadecaller
Nov. 27, 2007, 10:40 a.m.When violators of the terms throw insults at members who have them blocked, other members on the thread still respond with their commments, thus it is really impossible to rely on the block feature entirely to cirumvent these characters.
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RedstateLib
Nov. 27, 2007, 10:52 a.m.I think when I see those hateful comments going forward I will just reply with "DNDR" for Doe Not Deserve Response. I think that those hateful posters just like the attention they get and if all of us that dislike that behavior respond to it with DNDR they will give up and go away. Kind of like ignoring children throwing a temper tantrum.
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simonsez
Nov. 27, 2007, 10:53 a.m.I want to say thanks, too, Spade. It sounds like many of us are re-thinking the way we participate.
The anonymous nature of blog adds to the depth of abuse by some, but I think most of us are here for entertainment and don't wish to be ridiculed for our comments.
I never sink a story and I gave up giving negs to comments months ago. I am trying to be more positive in my responses.
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Spadecaller
Nov. 27, 2007, 10:59 a.m.corey.spring;
ABOUT THE BUTTON...
Me thinks the button goes to an unattended warehouse in cyberspace.
I don't mean to be disrespectful, but by the time someone usually responds and then deletes unacceptable content, the discussion often degenerates into immature bantering over irrelevant information. Sometimes there are enough positive forces to overcome and move past that, but not always.
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greenmac
Nov. 27, 2007, 11:41 a.m.Thanks Spade..... I very seldom "neg" if at all. If the person has a point buried somewhere in the hate ... I will try to discuss .... if not I ignore. Most of these posters we speak of just want to joust. If we don't give them a partner to do that with they usually move on.
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Patriot1
Nov. 27, 2007, 12:19 p.m.Personally, I don't let it bother me. I have been attacked many times because of my military service. It seems that if you were in the military, you are a brain washed killer, and your opinions are irrelevant. It just shows what I have believed all along. When they can't come up with a decent argument to common sense, they revert to name calling. And hey it's easy because they wouldn't dare say some of this stuff to anyones face. they might get their asses kicked!!!
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hyperbola
Nov. 27, 2007, 12:20 p.m.Actually I would prefer to see even the abusive comments. It is very informative to see who abuses whom about what.
Perhaps one would spare himself a bit of annoyance by "cleansing" abusers (who decides what is abuse?), but I prefer to see a representation of all attitudes, even if they represent "red anger". Pretending this doesn't exist by expunging it is a dangerous thing to pursue. Better that the abusers simply not be encouraged by responding in form.
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not2needy
Nov. 27, 2007, 1:47 p.m.Alexis, although i tend to agree with you regarding the fact that people use fake names and pictures, there are reasons for that.
There are so many web sites out there that gives personal information, i.e. addresses, pnone numbers, etc. I live in Ky, most people here know that, and my name isn't a common one, hence all anyone would have to do is go to one of those search engines and type in my name and find me immediately. That isn't an attractive thought IMO! Therefore i use a moniker that isn't in any way related to my real name. If it leads to savage behavior, so be it! I would rather that than to have some of the nuts on here have access to my personal information.
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Candida
Nov. 27, 2007, 11:08 p.m.alexiskauffmann: "Ok, nothing here forces anyone to share their personnal info. And this is what inevitably leads to savage behavior."
I don't see why anonymity would inevitably lead to savage behavior. It allows it, but perhaps people show who they really are without the thin veneer of civility that society imposes on them. Whether I use my real name or a screen name, I am who I am and would never lower myself to savage behavior.
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DeadXXXManXXXTalkin
Nov. 28, 2007, 10:11 a.m.what does my name or face have to do with the things I say, AK?
you don't need to know those, just like i don't need to know yours
I am here to write and/or think. Period. And if a monkey can do what I can do, I guess Darwin was right after all
or I am behind the evolution curve a bit
also the working brain thing you said is a bit of an odd touch on a thread about insults and abuse being 'bad'
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Spadecaller
Nov. 27, 2007, 1:11 p.m.Hyperbola,
To use the term "cleansing" abusers is far-fetched and inappropriate. The term (ethnic) cleansing should not be construed with some basic guidelines of decency to join a social website. Let's get some perspective! This topic need not be politicized.
If you want to play by some basic rules of decency fine otherwise go elsewhere. (cleansing is an absurd anology.)
That Propeller.com provides Terms of Use that only require one to avoid victimizing, harassing, degrading, or intimidating an individual or group of individuals on the basis of religion, gender, sexual orientation, race, ethnicity, age, or disability is not much to require for membership.
Without some enforcement, adverse selection will occur and the civilized users will leave. Then you can have a whole nest of abusers to observe, hyperbola.
Most of us do not like to witness anyone being abused. If you want to study this phenomenon, vist your local prison or watch Jerry Springer instead.
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NelsonR
Nov. 27, 2007, 1:09 p.m.Nice to see all those who are commenting on this article that have been holier than thou while being a member. All have opinions with some getting downright contentious as has myself.
If you submit a story do not make the story an avenue for ridicule when a blogger answers that story. Case in point, Ind06 has a habit of including stories that are humorous or satire while not expressing the topic in the beginning. Consequently posters go in to a fake story thinking it is true. The end result Ind06 and his menial friends insult and ridicule the comments to this fake story. I find that offensive and I used the work "pedophilia to describe his acts". To me it is not offensive but to others it may be. In conclusion their are always two sides to every story so you righteous think about the issue before you condemn. Spadecaller you are no saint either your agenda is for Israel over Americas interest.
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not2needy
Nov. 27, 2007, 1:30 p.m.Excellent article Spadecaller, so articulate and exactly what i would expect from you my friend!
FTA: Often these spiteful saboteurs choose their victims and follow them from thread to thread, where they can continue their vengeful tirades.)) This has happened to me numerous times, i have reported it to no avail! The report button is a useless little gadget that should either be taken seriously or gotten rid of. If they aren't going to investigate abuses and do something about them, they should eliminate the report button completely.
Another thing i have witnessed, and discussed with other members, is the borderline porn on Propeller lately. I know all catagories deserve equal respect and space, but some of the sex articles that actually get to the front page with little or no comments or votes is ridiculous. There are WAYYYYYYYYY too many porn sites on the internet to engage in it on a NEWS SITE! Sex is not NEWS, or at least to me it isn't!
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flyonthewallzz
Nov. 27, 2007, 1:48 p.m.I have seen many posts with double digit positive votes that contain the word "IDIOT".
Sorry to shout but such words do scream at folks that dissagree.
The positive votes do amplify.
If I where here to garner positive votes an abusive form of language could possibly be an effective tool.
It is easy to support someone calling "****" an IDIOT and never giving it a second thought becuase it is, of course true.
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IanFraigun
Nov. 27, 2007, 1:51 p.m.I have been involved with a Usenet Newsgroup for a number of years. It is a support group and as such gets a bit more protection than other types of groups from Usenet.
Even there you find the boorish posters and those who make inappropriate and negative comments. Over the years we have seen that if everyone, and I mean EVERYONE, ignores them they goaway shortly as they no longer get the attention they crave.
Sometimes we have had to remind those being harassed to not reply, but eventually it does work.
I do the same here and ignore those boorish posts, mostly by giving a BAD rating so that I do not need to see it when I scroll through again. Unfortunately we need a bit of a thick skin in this internet world, but eventually lack of attention more than anything else drives the boors away.
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Cityslicker
Nov. 27, 2007, 1:50 p.m."He without sin cast the first stone !"
That was a junk story should not be on such a intelligent site .
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Itachirumon
Nov. 27, 2007, 2:21 p.m.Oh yes I too am absolutely sick of seeing all of the nasty comments that come up in here. I joined because I was actually a lurker for about 3 months before making an account and noticed about 50% of the time someone was representing history differently than I had been taught so I decided to join and politely correct the mistakes of my fellow netscapers, only to immediately be attacked. Although out of all the stuff that's gone on here, I still say the attack I (and spade and goppy too) recieved on here two nights ago was the worst out of all of them (I won't name names, but I'm sure everyone knows who I mean and if anyone is curious they can check my comment history) and was hopefully delt with post-haste. This is a forum for the free exchange of ideas and opinions, not personal attacks and hate speech propaganda.
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oldgringo
Nov. 27, 2007, 2:29 p.m.Great article Spadecaller!! Trying to get all of this out in the open is refreshing. I admit that I've been guilty of getting angry and name-calling...it's something I've tried very hard to overcome. I found that when I responded angrily to others, I would literally lose sleep over it. Then I would stay away from Propeller until I felt better. Now I've come to realize that even if I don't agree with many of you, I'm addicted to ALL of you, and miss you when I'm "offline". Even you, Goppy. Happy Holidays!
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Spadecaller
Nov. 27, 2007, 2:34 p.m.baddog:
Questioning my gender, calling me names, "punk", "cripple", "vile little man", and the usual "f**K'n pervert", "f**k'n wimp", "f**k'n girl" ...these are common from you and that is why your comments were erased the other day.
As I have witnessed, you are over the line and have no intention of respecting the terms of use. But I prefer to leave that final decision with management.
What you call intimation on my part is funny in an odd way. I told you that I was not threatening you -- that I was promising you that if you continue with your epithets directed at my gender and disability, I would sitemail managment.
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Grrr
Nov. 27, 2007, 2:40 p.m.Hmmmm. Don't much care for all this clamoring for censorship. I want to know what people really have to say.
And if you don't want to see somebody's comments, JUST BLOCK THEM. Easy, end of problem. Exercise your right to read something else.
All the rest is, well, whining, if you ask me.
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Charlson
Nov. 27, 2007, 2:43 p.m.Guilty as charged! I've been obtuse and abusive on Netscape and Propeller out of anger and a need to get back at those I felt abused me and misrepresented my positions on issues. But folks, in this forum, no one really gets physically harmed. I understand verbal abuse is a terrible weapon also, but we have the vehicle to counteract it by blocking and reporting it (which I have never done). Some have very thin skins and probably should not participate if they can't handle the strong and sometimes violent language. But this is a forum and with it, freedom of speech should be applied unless personal attacks include threats of action. I will try to think twice before keying in my responses and comments but I am human, contrary to what some might think, and will probably regress to my bad behavior at times. Just block me and move on.
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Poulenc
Nov. 27, 2007, 2:59 p.m.Seems to me there are two kinds of poster abuse:
Outright name-calling/bigotry without rebuttal.
Outright name-calling/bigotry WITH rebuttal, often irrational, but an attempt is made to engage in the issue at hand.
As distasteful as the first and often the second are, I usually feel that something is learned from both--about who people are.
Hate speech--the ad hominem attack based on race, religion, etc.--shouldn't be allowed, as it muddies, if not actually poisons the waters.
But I think, in general, censorship should be avoided. We are protected by cyberspace. The Internet is probably the last place to allow the frankest exchange of views. For many--I'm thinking of those in closed or totalitarian societies--its a life raft.
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splitrch
Nov. 27, 2007, 3:14 p.m.For whatever it's worth, Propeller / Netscape is much tamer than the "old" Yahoo message boards. Talk about venom and bigotry!! It was the worst. I found the "new" Yahoo message boards a few months back. Now the links are by topic rather than article. Same old disgusting rhetoric from my point of view. It's just a little harder to get to. I haven't tried since.
My first ever message here was about how civilized this venue is by comparison. My opinion hasn't changed.
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Klarissa
Nov. 27, 2007, 3:27 p.m.A comment about people wanting to be friends. First, some people seem to just add the whole list??
As a rule, if a person does not have an autobiography with their name I don't add them to my list. And of course, a few times their autobiograpy was why I didn't add them!
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Mutainia
Nov. 27, 2007, 3:39 p.m.Does this mean I can no longer be the gadfly on the bowed, up-raised booty of the "Religion of Peace", BITING it until there is a lot of loud, angry, quick side to side tongue wagging? Anyone see that Simpson's episode where Marge complains about the violence in Itchy and Scratchy, so, they make the cartoon peaceful? That kind of came to my mind while reading this. I think ALL you guys are great, I really do, including Daylight. (1 Cor. 11:19).
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JAG123
Nov. 27, 2007, 4:07 p.m.I enjoy having my blood pressure spike reading some of the crap spewed forth on Propeller.
That's what makes it enjoyable.
If I spend my life only reading what makes me comfortable how am I supposed to learn/grow from the experience.
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MonkeyBiz
Nov. 27, 2007, 4:12 p.m.I have gotten into a few ugly discussions with people that try to intimidate and ridicule opposing opinions. I try to give as good as I get, but sometimes the ugliness goes beyond anything I could come up with.
I saved a PM where I could actually see the spittle flying, red-faced rage at me for defending gay rights. The name calling was foul and obscenely profane.
I have been called a coward, challenged to a fight, and had my parents accused of ****** and incest.
Mostly it is entertaining to see how some people react to having their beliefs and statements challenged, but when they start to get personal, I have a little trouble keeping my own comments toned down.
I don't block anyone. I would rather keep them in sight and look for an opportunity to counter their ugliness.
IMHO, if you wouldn't say it face to face, don't say it here.
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THOMNH62
Nov. 27, 2007, 4:20 p.m.intellegent debate, hmmm that sort of leaves every liberal out, if you did that there would be no proppeler, or libscape. Libs are unable to have intellegent debates because they quidkly revert to name calling and hysteria, like a dog cornered in an unwinable fight. This story in itself is an oximoron.
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Truzseeker
Nov. 27, 2007, 4:23 p.m.Incorrigibles ? hmmm...responding with facts or authority seems to end a senseless debate.
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4cprocess
Nov. 27, 2007, 4:28 p.m.Like they say, if you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything.
People have a right to stand for what they believe in and if nothing but the reciprocation of mutual respect for one another it couldn't be that hard to at least agree to be civil to one another.
I do neg some on here but I usually try to follow up with a rebuttle. But I do have to admit there are sometimes that I don't based on the fact that I know what will follow. Abusive language or a neg chasing mentality on every following post.
I do enjoy this forum very much though. There is a lot to be learned here and like my daddy always said...."you can't learn anything if you don't listen".
May he rest in peace.
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markmawn2
Nov. 27, 2007, 4:37 p.m.It's all about the intention.
Some of the "challenging" comments have prompted me to think more clearly about my own arguments, and it is to my own benefit to become more articulate and succinct about my viewpoint. Not that the "challenging" person needs to hear it, but the others who read the post who need validation.
The idea of "winning" is not my intention. It is the offering and sharing of perspective and viewpoint that drives me on.
It is the weak amongst us that make us stronger.
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Cityslicker
Nov. 27, 2007, 4:37 p.m.Hey look Ma , one group of people and their opinions , no one is right except them , they can trash talk but you can't .
Repetitive posting on one topic "padding stats" .
Repetitive posting on one topic "padding stats" .
Repetitive posting on one topic "padding stats" .
Repetitive posting on one topic "padding stats" .
Repetitive posting on one topic "padding stats" .
Repetitive posting on one topic "padding stats" .
Repetitive posting on one topic "padding stats" .
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Klarissa
Nov. 27, 2007, 4:55 p.m.Propeller reminds me of the difference between a happy and unhappy marriage:
You can think whatever thought you want, but if you write say them outloud (write them down) they can't be taken back.
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joeblowe
Nov. 27, 2007, 5:30 p.m.I think of this as kind of like trying to enforce censorship on a TV channel. It's public, the players don't use their real names, and sometimes assume false personalities. So, what is the remedy for a TV show that is distasteful to you? Very simple: CHANGE THE CHANNEL! I don't have any "Propeller" stock - I don't care if you leave. Want to throw ME out? OK, BFD - doesn't really affect my life any - there are other forums if I REALLY feel I need to share my wisdom with the world. Plus, I have my OWN website if I want to expound. My point is this (as the eagles have helpfully explained): GET OVER IT. It's not much different than shooting the bull with a bunch of guys at the barber shop. Common courtesy is expected, not everyone is going to agree with you, sometimes a conversation will get "spirited" but too much foul language will upset the kids, personal attacks need to be taken outside. But if you don't care for the conversation, there ARE other barber shops.
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Ciera-Marie
Nov. 27, 2007, 5:49 p.m.Spadecaller:
Thank you for posting this. It has been an interesting thread so far.
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THOMNH62
Nov. 27, 2007, 5:55 p.m.come on, you have to admit that this is more like cnn, than a chance to put out real ideas. I was truly reminded of that fact after my last poast. I mispelled a word and thats really all you could come up with. Klitarrisa, you could have at least offered something interesting. Tell us what you think the answer is. Should I start eating tofu, reduce my carbon foot print like Al Gore or John Edwards and his 28K sq ft home. I really don't support the war, don't care for th direction Bush has taken us on many topics, but we don't ever get to that because your to busy calling others names.
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Ratskii
Nov. 27, 2007, 6:02 p.m.I don't feel I've been harassed or abused on Propeller. I've had a few PM exchanges, but they've always either to clear up what I meant by a comment or to exchange information.
I've only used the report function twice that I recall and the sink button three times, and I've been a member for quite awhile.
My thoughts re: what might make propeller a more civil site are 1) Use the neg button for ad hominem attacks, hate speech and name calling only. Don't neg someone just because you disagree with them (yes, I know, I've gone overboard a few times). 2) Consider, if you're debating the opposition, I assume you're doing it with the hope of changing their mind. If that is a correct assumption, ask yourself how will being abusive towards the people you disagree with help change their minds?
One last thing. Why was luvmyprez kicked off? While I frequently disagreed with her, she was one of the more respectful people in the opposition.
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eugenegerard
Nov. 27, 2007, 6:06 p.m.I think many of the abusive perps are coordinated efforts by the powers that be to stifel dissent. There are always a few nutcases but I've seen the posts get taken over groups(gangs) of sock puppets. They usually spew hate and disinformation. Most of the time they get in ongoing tirades between rach other that make interplay impossible.
The only way to beat these guys is to constantly repeat the truth and call them on their hate.
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truthiness
Nov. 27, 2007, 6:09 p.m.Well said Spade,
I'm not sure you can remove the trolls entirely. one of the problems with free speech is that it is available to jerks as well.
however, generally speaking, trolls tend to be looking for a reaction. it takes some amount of effort to log on to the forum to insult people, usualy it is being done with the hopes they will react and and give you the satisfaction of a return comment. just dont give them one and they usually get bored and go somewhere else.
as for the debates that turn ugly, the same method applies. although I am guilty of being baited on occasion, if you are looking for higher debate just don't respond to those who dont offer it.
nobody on the forum actually knows you: your "friends" are a list of contacts, not actual friends, likewise you dont have any actual enemies here either. there really is no reason to take anything anyone writes personally.
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JayGarcia
Nov. 27, 2007, 6:21 p.m.If you're that sensitive you wouldn't last but 10 secs in most support forums. Namecallers, agitators, trolls etc. hang around because they get recognized. Ignore them, they go away because a flame war doesn't break out. Also remember that you're only one click away from sending the cyberdevil to electronic purgatory. :-)
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mamasan
Nov. 27, 2007, 6:28 p.m.dam looks like a i missed out on a real good story here!!!
that what I get for having some "beauty " work done!
ouch.....
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Cybnetic
Nov. 27, 2007, 6:52 p.m.It would be nice to hold a real debate with freethinking people for a change. REAL ideas forming from human minds instead of midevil thinkers
OH, i do not believe in political correctness. thats just humanity in denial again. get over it and get a backbone
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david_nwpa
Nov. 27, 2007, 6:55 p.m.I would like to think I maintain a certain level of decorum on most of my posts, or at least I try to do so. However, I have about reached my limit with the number of pornographic spam postings; in particular, the Gay and Lesbian Forum has devolved into mostly lesbian porn. I have already said I will stop or reduce the frequency of my posts as a sign that I am not willing to keep propping up the forum with one or two valid stories. I know that other people who post legitimate stories in that forum are also being crowded out by smut. Vitabeat, RedStateQueer and TechnologyExpert are but three people who frequently post, only to have their stories lost amid the garbage on that forum.
We need civility both within forums and throughout the entire site.
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Spadecaller
Nov. 27, 2007, 7:01 p.m.Baddad's latest post addresses me and the rest of those who do not agree with his views or conduct by calling us names: "righteous butts", "chickencrap liars" and "cowards".
And then he proceeds to tell everyone else to grow up. I can't stop laughing at it. Would someone give this poor guy a mirror and a towel. His face is dripping with egg.
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MeanMotherUSA
Nov. 27, 2007, 7:33 p.m.REALLY: After Scanning Most Comments Nobody Can Insult Your Own Itelligence But YOU-Yourself...Beginning Comments:
I Agree There's Few Here Who Are Less 3rd Grade Mentality....
I Am Have Always Been Outspoken...
You Don't Like What He/She Had/Has To Comment Pass On It Or Better Yet:
"Consider The Source"...You'll Be Better Person In Lieu Of It!
MeanMotherUSA
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Fangarius
Nov. 27, 2007, 7:38 p.m.Here's the thing, anytime you get into a heated debate over anything--whether it's controversial, political, religious, or what have you, eventually the opinions start devolving into the lowest common denominator.
And Propeller is not the only forum site with this problem. Before they went on hiatus, Nintendo's Forums were rife with personal insults over things like technology, preference over game systems, even how Nintendo runs their company.
The problem here is you have over billions of people responding to news information everyday, and you can't simply corral every troll, spammer, and abusive crumudgeon which materializes on these sites. Regrettably all you can do is either report the abusers, or simply ignore them, because in the end, we've all been the abusers as well as the abusees over much ado about nothing.
We must consider the fact just because we are entitled to our own opinions, we don't have to get obnoxious about it.
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jovial
Nov. 27, 2007, 8:09 p.m.I have four people total blocked. I may unblock them at a later time, but at this time I think not. Saintettiene- arrogant, insults. Oscar 1-2-3, erratic behavior, moody, insulting, arrogant. Alfalfa, drunken comments, insults, profanity. Locky12, insulting, profanity. Occasionally, I peek at their comments to see if they have changed tactics. Sometimes they are civil, but they continue their tactics to this day. So i wait until they can consistently show civility.
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icono1
Nov. 27, 2007, 8:41 p.m.This blog space is kinda like life in general in that you have all types here. I personally think that a good debater or poster should be able to handle the 'good with the bad', the 'smart with the stupid', the 'low with the high' and be able to defend themselves as the situation calls for and add to the flow of the conversation accordingly, ie stay on topic, and move on with it. As for choosing what type of blogger is allowed onto the site, that should be, in my opinion, the job of the site owners and they should do that by enforcing the rules that the site and all participants are supposed to abide by.
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Jerclimber23
Nov. 27, 2007, 9:04 p.m.Hmm. Maybe someone has already suggested this, but how about an ignore button that you can press on any comment and from that point forward if you are logged in you will never see a post from that user again...
Just a suggestion...
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klr60
Nov. 27, 2007, 9:52 p.m.Very good commments from everyone. The "BLOCK" button is there for a reason. Use your own judgement>
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ConquerorWyrm
Nov. 27, 2007, 10:57 p.m.Without reading any of the comentary here, thus my first and 'pure' impression of this little article is quite simple.
Herein we have as true and pure a form of debate as possible. The fact that some (if not most or, to be honest, if not ALL) here do at one point or another respond with less than angelic posts, in my opinion, only sweetens and strengthens the very concept of this site. Herein we have the ability to express ourselves, even to the point of offending others. I know I have been offended many times as well I am absolutely possitive that some of my comments have offended others. Good.
See, the responsibility for offense lies with the offended, not the offender who may or may not have offended intentionally. It is the individual offended (myself included) who bears responsibility for that offense.
As for any discussion of limiting comments (beyond threats), I would shudder should that happen.
I don't mind being offended...keeps me humble.
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amazed
Nov. 27, 2007, 10:57 p.m.just wondering.. does "repugnants" and "dumbocrats" fall into the ranks of personal insults or are they considered "intelligent discourse"?
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puffin
Nov. 28, 2007, 12:14 a.m.I've never reported anyone for being abusive towards me personally, but I have when I've seen it against other members. Sometimes I've said when I've reported them, sometimes not. Be warned, Lol. To my knowledge, I've only been reported once. It was a long time ago, and the poor guy just didn't get the sick & twisted beauty of the joke.
*shrugs & smiles*
If there's a blatant sockpuppet fest goin' on, in a single post, I'll report it. If someone repeatedly posts chapters of a lame romance novel in the Pets section or under News, etc, and especially with a clearly misleading title .. I sink & report the fool. If someone repeatedly spams threads to their blogs, I report. Blog posts I may be a little more lenient with - particularly in the Pets section. There's only so much pet stuff (lots of it so sad, more suited to Do No Evil) some of the pic compilations are nice.
So yeah .. that's about it for me.
- I'm the same offline as I am online.
: )
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gamahuche
Nov. 28, 2007, 12:33 a.m.But some of them don't - and then its perplexing!
Sometimes perplexing is good..
Sometimes I just sits and thinks [W. Pooh]
[You can tell its early morning for me..
O.K. for all you night owls! and puffins]
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Indochine54
Nov. 28, 2007, 3:01 a.m.Oh good God!!!!!!
This thread must surely be satire!!
If it was an egotistical blog from anyone else I may have been able to swallow it, but from spadecaller!!!!!
yep, i only joined today, before anyone bothers to point it out and i have been banned from here before and making very sure that i stay within the rules of the TOC. I have been regularly reading NS and only rejoined (former ID, Capitaine Danjou) because of this thread.
I myself was banned for daring to argue with spade, like so many others. When he can't win a debate he brings in his religiona and disabled status, then twists it so that it is as if the person he was debating was attacking that.
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Cityslicker
Nov. 28, 2007, 8:47 a.m.Sad this topic is still going .
One groups opinion , forcing it on others , meant to provoke a negative response .
Let it go !
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jimdoze
Nov. 28, 2007, 8:52 a.m.Frankly, I could care less about name-calling, abusive language and the like. It simply gives me rise to sharpen my thinking. Without the adrenaline surge it provides, I would be less motivated to think more deeply and seek ways to express myself more clearly. I've always had an aversion to excessive schoolmarm type palliation as in "now ______, be nice to ______. Some of the discussion about using the neg button reminded me of that. I say "fire away". I know I get some at least small satisfaction from hitting it when I do. Why shouldn't everyone else?
In regard to the old brome that one is to never discuss politics or religion. From my viewpoint, these sites are the perfect medium for such discussions. Everyone is kept at an electronic arm's length so no physical harm may occur. If one punches out their own computer, that's their problem.
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EsaEngr
Nov. 28, 2007, 10:28 a.m.I find the level of name calling on this site to be very distractive and it certainly is not necessary to any open debate.
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Grrr
Nov. 28, 2007, 10:42 a.m.Well, after reading all this, all I can say, and this is from a bit of experience here, is:
Gee, spadecaller, this is all kind of, well, hypocritical.
I lost a lot of the respect I had for you during the course of this particular debate.
I suggest that you go set yourself up a group on Google, then you can control the member list yourself and only let friends that agree with you 100% of the time on there at all.
And the rest of us can have fun here on propeller without having to worry about offending some whiner that's just going to start negging everything we say and THEN get us thrown off when we call them out on it in an appropriately vulgar fashion by twisting it into some personal assault instead of the drive-by flaming it really is.
My two cents, straight off the cuff.
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Spadecaller
Nov. 28, 2007, 12:37 p.m.Hyper:
Games of semantics and the need to win a useless arguement do not float my boat.
You know quite well how I referenced anti-Semitism, racism, and sexism on this thread; it was in regards to abiding by the TOU. To misconstrue that to mean that I wanted to change the course of conversation to American Democracy, Zionism, and Jews, is absurd and false. And I don't to play your little game anymore. Find someone else.
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Cybnetic
Nov. 28, 2007, 1:04 p.m.I think its time for people to grow thicker skin. Why is everything so offensive and disagreeable to everyone nowdays.
grow up , get life and keep out of "other" people business and we will all get along better
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Obaku
Nov. 28, 2007, 2:47 p.m.OK then, will someone please give me an example of what is the politically correct way in which one might criticize the the policies and actions of the State of Israel, or it's 'defenders' and supporters, such as AIPAC and the Mossad, without violating the TOU?
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JamesMarcus
Nov. 28, 2007, 3:26 p.m.Criticism of the State of Israel, AIPAC, or Mossad is not a violation of our TOU.
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Silverghost
Nov. 28, 2007, 3 p.m.Spadecaller: Congrats on a winning thread & one that is downright needful. Would be great to see 1000 posts!
I hope that it will bring some improvement to the nature of the forum. -Rev. S
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Pastafari
Nov. 28, 2007, 3:34 p.m.I guess this shows just how wrapped up in our own views some of us are. With the time you spent ranting here Spade I hope you got paid somehow......but I am glad it wasn't on my dime. MY 2 cents: The Internet is a big place(....if you don't like this playground take your toys (opinions) and play with someone who agrees with you. That sounds like what your after. No offense intended just my observation.
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puffin
Nov. 28, 2007, 4:07 p.m.Some poster showed up the other day and was so harsh to someone that I think is a really nice person, and who handled it very well. It took repeated reports, and this thread, to get that person and their comments removed. I don't think it's a matter of censorship, entirely. Some stuff just shouldn't be tolerated. By any of us.
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Spadecaller
Nov. 28, 2007, 6:08 p.m.Some people do a lot of pointing fingers. The last place they look, however, is in the mirror. Blaming those of us who support the TOU is the same arguement rapists use; "she seduced me and willingly approached me."
If you submitted an application for membership at Propeller, agreed to the terms of use, honor the rules, and do not defend the right to violate the rights of others.
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truthiness
Nov. 28, 2007, 11:18 p.m.wow, has this gotten completely out of hand or what? sort of a self -fulfilling prophecy, eh? no offense to the religious among us.
obviously some people are more easily offended than others
nothing wrong with disagreement.. even if your opinion offends
just dont be a dck about it
golden rule and all that....
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slate
Nov. 29, 2007, 9:08 a.m.The premise of this thread is great, how can we not agree that civility on the boards would be a good thing. However the more I read the almost 900 posts I keep seeing a pattern.
The pattern I've seen is the submitter of the thread slowly going down the list to state those he felt have broken the TOU. With said submitter going over the details of the offense against him while he was innocently in the threads.
Another common thread I saw in this thread, was the accused coming to their own defense and stating that the submitter had stated half truths and had embellished the event posed.
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NoSpinDave
Nov. 29, 2007, 10:11 a.m.shake all you want, but its true. Whats SAD is liberals innate ability to be "outraged" only when particular (read groups that tend to vote liberal-Democrat) groups are disparaged.
Liberal hypocrisy at its finest!
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Webreader
Nov. 30, 2007, 5:28 p.m.Locomotive... freight train cars}-CABOOSE - whew! now I can continue on my way but those red blinking lights and dingdingding will be in my head for some time!
RIP Evel Knievel
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Fangarius
Dec. 1, 2007, 2:06 a.m.What's strange about this article, I recently was in a debate with another about a related article of cyberbullying. Basically on why the article was overlooked, whereas one guy particular was slamming me because he dismissed the problem since it supposedly can't compare to realistic, physical bullying.
Thus like this topic, if you counter something like it, simply shut it off or block the person. Whereas I pointed out though it's a temporal fix, it doesn't solve the problem. And when I attempted satire on him, it was rather wasted, since he presumed I was now comparing murder as being acceptable.
Which ironically he then ended his response by stating if he caught the person responsible for the cyberbullying (read the overlooked article: cyberbullying), he'd neatly do away with her arson style. Rather disturbing also stating in order to preserve our freedoms, we have to endure deaths and losses. As if the concept is comparable to those involved with war. (cont)
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Searchbeam
Dec. 1, 2007, 4:32 p.m.This whole thread has somehow been very cathartic. I saw several members of our community open up and give us a glimpse of their personalities.
Lots of the comments were off the track, but that is to be expected when the issues at hand touch many people in different ways.
Perhaps most reveling of all was the "Block" list by Ricky Dawkins..
On a more serious note, I want to express my thoughts on the often contentious exchanges between Spade and several other members. I am aware of the personal tragedies in Spade's life, including the horror that they went through the Holocaust period.
It was one of the darkest hours of civilization. No matter what perspective we use to look at it, it is still one of the most horrible things that happened to human beings, because they were of a particular religious faith. The details of the tortures and atrocities that became visible during the Nuremberg Trials will make our world hang our collective head in shame.
More..
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Fangarius
Dec. 5, 2007, 1:06 a.m.What's interesting about this entire debate is, I notice like Spadecaller indicates, how many tend on implementing the First Amendment as a basis of their argument when one wants to regulate forums, cyberspace, what have you.
But as he pointed out, the argument doesn't wash. Mainly because there are several circumstances which Freedom of Speech do not apply. Such as yelling 'Fire!' in a dark theatre, or marching down the street with a burning cross, swastika or other offensive material. Nor vandalizing private and public property.
Ironically, the key word here is 'rights', though one may have the right to free speech, they do NOT have the right treading on other's opinions which vulgar, immature and unacceptable behaviour.
Nor does it permit us in utilizing the goverment in letting us 'legalize' our misbehaviour. Case in point. Most of you have noticed my avatar and screenname is really a character I've created for over 30 years. (cont)
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Fangarius
Dec. 5, 2007, 1:25 a.m.Primarily because he discovered who I was in real life (apparently he was a student at one of my schools and recognized my art style), and decided on tormenting me for something which had occured 20 years back.
So where am I going with this? Just this, guys, though anonymity is great with the Internet, and many do have the right essentially for expressing one's opinions and views on topics, as I aforementioned, one does not have the right behaving carte blanche on ANY forum, chatroom, site or blog just because they're identity is unknown.
'Fangdarius' presumed if he came up and started pretending he was a Jewish guy using an altered form of my work, one of two scenarios would occur: (1) I'd freak and cower, closing the MySpace account and never draw or express my character on the Internet ever again; or (2) Start permitting my baser instincts to take over and spew slurs, epithets and Anti-Semetic remarks as a means for 'victimizing' him. (cont)
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GrainOfSand
Dec. 7, 2007, 12:16 p.m.Opinions are like a-holes, everybody has one. It's what we do with that information and how we deal with folks we do not agree with, that's the situation.
Some folks just will not understand any other POV other than their own, and that is their right. It is also everyone's right to disagree and try to make our own points known to those who disagree.
But to call folks names, belittle them or even threaten them for disagreeing with you goes against what the USA is/was all about. Freedom of expression, speech, etc.
If we lose that freedom because we simply disagree, then what is left?
It would be like living in Communist Russia. Nobody can dissent, nobody can disagree with the government.
Sounds like the Bush Administration to me. Disagree with Bush, and he'll fire you. Wear an anti-Bush tee shirt in front of him and he'll have you thrown in jail.
Is that freedom?
I will defend anyone's right to their freedom of speech, even though I disagree with their views.
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