An Atheist, Hitler Was Not! »
Posted By Spadecaller 1 year, 5 months ago in NewsMany preachers and politicians have joined together in a new movement: to distort and rewrite history to favor their own prideful agendas. On the airwaves they routinely condemn atheists claiming Adolph Hitler was not a Christian. Heartfelt objections to historical fact must not become the impetus for compromising the truth.
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Spadecaller
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Spadecaller1 year, 5 months ago
The power of history is great.
As Christian historical revisionism infiltrates mainstream America, it is important for the rest of society to recognize our need to craft an accurate, compelling, and a shared story of American history, particularly as it relates to the function of religion in government and politics.
More than needing to know how Christian fundamentalism is wrong, we ourselves must know where we stand in the light of history, in relation to each other.
We must know how we can better foresee a future united, when freedom from religious prejudice, and the prospects of religious warfare will cease to threaten our world.
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Spadecaller1 year, 5 months ago
For those who prefer personal attacks, (like BoBo in Texas)I refer you to the article that apparently he failed to read or comprehend:
"Is this an indictment of all Christians? Not at all! From every religion and from every nationality characters of ill-repute are born and raised."
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SonOfTheMask1 year, 5 months ago
Name one serious current scholar that believes the adult Hitler viewed Christianity as a motivating force in his world view. Name one...
Another example of the dumbing down of America when blogs such as this one are considered to have any have any scholastic merit.
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toph19731 year, 5 months ago
I learned he was a Christian in a Nazi Germany history class in college. Not really funny how Religion brings out the worst in people. Not only in Hitler, and the like, but every day people. Just notice that the people that treat other people badly are almost always religious.
The vatican was complicit in the Holocaust as well. The trainyards that were taking jews to concentration camps were right outside the walls of Vatican City. Yet they did nothing. I would surmise out of greed. Shameful.
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splitrch1 year, 5 months ago
Let me remind you of what Pastor Neimoller said in World War II: "First they came for the Communists, and I didn't speak up, because I wasn't a Communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up, because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn't speak up, because I was a Protestant. Then they came for me, and by that time there was no one left to speak up for me."
Rather than argue about whether Hitler was or was not a Christian, we need to focus on the effects of fascism on humanity - regardless of religious differences. We need to understand how people were divided, used and ultimately destroyed. We must remain vigilant and not allow the horrors of the past to reemerge.
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Bkumm1 year, 5 months ago
I think we must understand that while Hitler was not an atheist he was also not a believer in the Word. Hitler would have said anything necessary to achieve his goal of power.
The Catholic Church in Germany bears some responsibility in the Holocaust, but the Catholic Church as a whole does not and even the Catholic Church in Germany should be condemned as individuals and not part of the whole. The Pope at the time was in a tenuous position and so it was difficult for him to make a statement against the Holocaust. Further, he felt it was hypocritical to condemn the NAZI's without condemning the Communists.
It think it is tragic that people use something like the Holocaust and the NAZI's for their own political gain. It was a terrible period in history and we should never forget the people that died, but it should also not be used for political ends.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/ant...
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Spadecaller1 year, 5 months ago
Bkumm:
True historical fact neither favors or spares allegiance to any cause, politics, or religion. Parochial objections to historical fact must not become the impetus for compromising the truth about history. The lessons of the past can so easlily be lost.
"Condemnation" was not the point of the article at all.
Reminder:
Although Pope John Paul II urged Catholics in 1994 to repent for failing in their moral duty to protest the treatment of Jews, and the bishops of Germany and Poland have apologized for their wartime failings, the declaration read October 1, 1997 appeared to amount to an expression of remorse more complete, uncompromising and anguished than anything previously pronounced by the church.
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Candida1 year, 5 months ago
Bkumm: "he felt it was hypocritical to condemn the NAZI's without condemning the Communists."
What prevented him from condemning the atrocities committed by both? I know it was risky in those days, but if we expected ordinary people in Germany to raise their voices and officials to refuse to follow orders, then we could expect a Pope to speak out against injustice.
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KMFDM1 year, 5 months ago
Thank you Spadecaller. Though some would disagree, it is not my intent to discredit anyones religion. Though, when a certian group denies a certian fact about their own history and then attempt to pin it apon another group, then they bring much dishonor and shame to their own selves. Blemishes should not be hidden, but to be reminders to not repeat past mistakes.
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Dicax_Maximus1 year, 5 months ago
SC - Good article. It appears as if the (my take) allegorical implication has been missed.....
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Spadecaller1 year, 5 months ago
The real threat facing our nation and the world is fundamentalism, whether it be Zionist fundamentalism, Muslim Fundamentalism, or Christian Fundamentalism; from these sources come the acts of terrorism perpetrated on the lives of innocent people.
Hitler was also a fundamentalist and used his relgion to exploit the politics and government of Germany. Whether he was a devout believer of not makes little difference. People are judged by their conduct not by what we choose to believe about their inner beliefs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BaVOcGEvi0A&feat...
Is a person guilty for their thoughts or for their deeds?
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Spadecaller1 year, 5 months ago
Fundamentalism,
or the adherence to the basics of Christianity, grew at least in part out of a desire by fundamentalists to return to the days of a less ethnically and religiously diverse America, a time that predated not only the empirical approach to biblical criticism but also the influx of large numbers of immigrants from Southern Europe and the Mediterranean rim, mainly Roman Catholics and Jews.
They sought a return to a world in which moral laws were absolute, men dominated women, and the laws of the Bible were strictly adhered to. Throughout the 20th century, for example, fundamentalist Christians have staunchly opposed equal rights for women and the legalization of homosexuality and abortion.
For these reasons, fundamentalist Christians tend to be intolerant of those who practice modernized, liberalized, or less rigorous forms of their religion (something that is true to some extent of all religious fundamentalists, including Muslims, Jews, and Sikhs).
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palamaComment removed: User banned.21 Replies
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Bkumm1 year, 5 months ago
Hitler was a ardent and fervent German nationalist. The Reich was his god and taking the Fatherland to glory was his religion. He believed that Jews stood in the way of that glory for racial reasons, but more than that, he needed an internal scapegoat to focus the attention of the people so that fear would lead them running into the arms of the NADSP. Which it did. Racism was rife during this time and no group was more persecuted than the Jews.
However, making a claim that Hitler was Christian or atheist is, in the view of history, irrelevant. In the end, his religion or lack thereof is not what made him the man he was.
We argue about this on a pretty regular basis and demagogues like Coulter bring it up, but in the end it's not relevant. If religion is the primary motivator for someone, then it becomes important (the Inquisition, the Crusades, the Jihads), if it is not, then it is not important.
Well written article, Spade. It's gets a person to thinking.
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Spadecaller1 year, 5 months ago
I don't think it was irrelevant to history, when the German people rallied around a leader that claimed to be Christian. Truth did not lead our nation to war in Iraq. History is a reflection of charlatans and false causes. When Pat Robertson, James Dobson, Phelps, Hagee, and the rest of these right wing extremeists rally their supporters, is the truth their guiding light? Does their belief that this IS a Christian Nation need to be based on truth?
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Radiofreeeuropa1 year, 5 months ago
I believe your correct in saying religion was not the primary motivation but it was a factor. To what degree? Did his Christian supporters believe Jews killed Jesus (ignoring Rome's role)? It is also pertinent in the sense of todays world. Whether Nazi's were Christian or just used it does not matter. Religion, particularly State and religion combined, played a role. A lesson for today's world indeed.
SC, You are dead right about the real threat facing our nation and the world being fundamentalism of all kinds but I would add it's the combined threat of fundamentalism,corporatism, and elitism grafted to politics doing the damage. These combined elements have little in common other than each wants to rule the world. But combined they are remarkably powerful.
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Spadecaller1 year, 5 months ago
Thanks Bkumm:
As you clearly stated, "It think it is tragic that people use something like the Holocaust and the NAZI's for their own political gain."
Why is it tragic?
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Bkumm1 year, 5 months ago
The tragedy is that the Holocaust happened nearly 70 years ago and people are using it for political gain.
Hitler was a bad man. No question there. So was Stalin. So was Mao. So was Tojo. So was FDR. So was Churchill. It just depends on your point of view. What drove FDR to order the forced internment of over 80,000 American citizens? Was it Christianity? What drove Truman to drop two atomic bombs on Japan? Was it Christianity? What drove Churchill to order the firebombing of Dresden? Was it Christianity?
We need to learn from these events in history and speak the truth of them, but they should not be used for political gain or to shame people into not discussing freely what they think.
I'll give you an example. I'm not only a student of history, but a scholar of same. As a matter of study, I once postulated in a class that the Wehrmacht was the single greatest military machine of all time. In the course of the discussion I noticed a definite shift.
Cont.
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Bkumm1 year, 5 months ago
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The definite shift occurred when the discussion drifted from purely military terms to one of policy by the government. Within ten minutes the discussion was no longer about the Wehrmacht as a military machine, but whether or not that machine was justified. That was not the point I was making, nor was it relevant to what was being discussed. But, that's where it went and I found myself in the unique position of defending Germany, its war and to some extent the Holocaust, forced labor and other practices.
By the time the class ended I was accused of being a NAZI, a defender of war criminals and an anti-Semite. None of which is even remotely true. Later, the professor (who happened to be Jewish, although I did not know this at the time) took me aside to berate me for daring to bring up such a subject in his class.
The class?
German History 1859 - 1945
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Bkumm1 year, 5 months ago
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So, yes, I have an issue with the Holocaust being used for political gain by any group. Also, when we combine religion with a subject as potent and possible explosive as Hitler, we miss the point that history teaches us.
I understand what you're trying to say, Spade and I agree with your motives. Fundamentalism is NOT a good thing. We need to be aware of it where it lies and bring it to light as much as possible.
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TheRealizer1 year, 5 months ago
In my opinion there is nothing on the earth as inherently evil as organized religion. Perpetrators of this fraud live a life of luxury on the backs of their believers!!!!!!!!!
Nuf said.......
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icono11 year, 5 months ago
Isn't it interesting that 'our past' seems to repeat itself again in the guise of contemporaty fundamentalist Religion.
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Albmore1 year, 5 months ago
Hitlers views in life had nothing to do with Christianity but of self motivation. I live here in Germany and have talked with many who lived through the Hitler era.
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Spadecaller1 year, 5 months ago
My father, a Jew, marched through Germany after surviving the battle of the bulge and then joined in the "liberation" of Auschwitz, where he met the living dead. On every belt buckle of the Nazi soldiers insribed were these words: "Gott Mit Uns" (God with us).
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TheRealizer1 year, 5 months ago
When history of the early 21st. century is written, it will show that another insane madman was in control of a different country!!!
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Natureboy1 year, 5 months ago
One of the barriers to our learning from history is the practice of exceptionalism. We suffer from exceptionalism on at least two fronts, that of American exceptionalism and that tragic and foolish belief that the Third Reich was a historical exception to which no comparisons may be made.
A third would be holocaust exceptionalism, which teaches that the extermination of european jews is the only true holocaust and without comparison or parallel. Roughly 25 million Africans and their descendents died in slavery or during their capture and transportation for the purpose of slavery.
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Locky121 year, 5 months ago
The greater danger I see in these threads is that it isn't so much you want to see fundamentalism to go away, but all religion entirely to go away.
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Bkumm1 year, 5 months ago
I think that is inaccurate and completely misconstruing Spadecaller's purpose. He's issuing a warning against fundamentalism, not against Christianity.
I understand that it seems like he's attacking Christianity by linking it to Hitler, but I don't think he is and I don't think that's his purpose.
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Candida1 year, 5 months ago
No, Locky12, I don't want all religions to go away; I just want them to stay out of my life and the lives of my family.
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KISA452a1 year, 5 months ago
OK, someone help me here. Is Propeller designed specifically to allow various people to write blogs and then post them as real news? No idea if SC is right in his assessment, but... Very bizarre idea :/
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Candida1 year, 5 months ago
KISA452a: "Is Propeller designed specifically to allow various people to write blogs and then post them as real news?"
This is not posted as news. This is an essay on an aspect of religion and is posted under Religion. I guess if there were a category on history, it could be posted under there as well.
If you want to see news, then you should check out the News category.
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Lazloe1 year, 5 months ago
Isn't this the way the various bibles are written? Each church's doctrine is the right one and all others are made up and are false teachings. The King James version of the bible was made up of five other bibles at the time to try and satisfy the other doctrines of England at the time.
Of course the Catholics swear up and down that their Latin version is the only right one because it is a Catholic doctrine. Of course, we have to believe that the Jewish bible is the only right one, along with the Muslim's only true bible.
Hitler was an atheist? According to which doctrine? I am surprised that the Nazi's didn't create their own version of the only true bible.
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Locky121 year, 5 months ago
Lazloe, you're forgetting that the Catholic Church doesn't use just Scripture, but also the tradition of the Apostles (the first Bishops) and the teaching authority (magisterium) of the Church. They are all equal in authority.
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ML2007Comment removed: User banned.
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joeblowe1 year, 5 months ago
"joined apart" might refer to a glued up woodworking joint that hadn't been planed QUITE true. I've seen plenty of them, so I know they are real... {;>D)=
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Bkumm1 year, 5 months ago
I'm pretty sure you shouldn't end a sentence with a form of the verb "to be".
This sentence:
"What would joined apart be?"
is incorrect. It should read:
"How would something be joined apart?".
Perhaps you should take care of your own glass house before you throw a stone. I'm certainly not suggesting I'm perfect, but I wouldn't hammer the education system of a country and then make a freshman mistake as you did either.
Welcome to the thread! Do you have any comments about the article other than the grammar?
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AtheismIsRealityComment removed: User banned.3 Replies
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joeblowe1 year, 5 months ago
I have no idea what difference it makes as to whether or not Hitler was a christian, a non-christian, a pagen, an atheist, or a priest. He was responsible for more murders than anyone else in recent history. Whether you try to blame it on his invisible friend - or make it an issue based on whether or not he HAD an invisible friend doesn't change that one little bit. And if he thought he could confer with dead spirits by way of a Ouija board or some such, how exactly is that different from asking advice of an invisible friend that never talks back?
The real lesson is to NEVER invest too much power in any individual or group - REGARDLESS of their stated intentions or rationalization. They will surely abuse it to the severe detriment of others. This is why we (supposedly) have three branches in our government to keep a balance. As we have seen the past 7 years, when 2 of the branches do not EXERCISE that power wisely, the other one WILL abuse it.
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Aurinkohirvi1 year, 5 months ago
joeblowe wrote: "He was responsible for more murders than anyone else in recent history."
You probably mean the genocide of civilians in the concentration camps? Nazis were not the biggest murderers of the civilian population though: Stalin (before, during and after WWII) intentionally caused deaths of even more people.
joeblowe wrote: "The real lesson is to NEVER invest too much power in any individual or group"
That didn't prevent the allied establish concentration camps in Germany after the WWII. How many Germans POWS and civilians did they kill? Numbers unknown, but masses anyway.
Eisenhower's Holocaust - His Slaughter Of 1.7 Million Germans
http://www.rense.com/general46/germ.htm
HNN Debate: Was Ike Responsible for the Deaths of Hundreds of Thousands of German POW's?
http://hnn.us/articles/1266.html
Did the Allies Starve Millions of Germans?
http://www.serendipity.li/hr/bacque01.htm
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Candida1 year, 5 months ago
Locky12: "it does convince me there is a devil."
It takes little to convince you.
.
"Ironic how you don't believe in God, but yet had the reverence to capitalize the "G" in His name.'
I usually capitalize God too, except when I'm referring to "a" god. It's not because I believe in him; it's to show respect to your beliefs.
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Spadecaller1 year, 5 months ago
midleft
Now Locky is calling you the devil. Ha!
BTW this was not a discussion about disparaging the views of anyone's system of beliefs -- not a criticism of any religion or of atheism either. It is simply about those fundamentalists who are rewriting history and labeling Hitler an atheist. Their behavior is a threat to religious freedom, tolerance, and pluralism in America.
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1-2-Oscar1 year, 5 months ago
To a great extent "those fundamentalists who are rewriting history and labeling Hitler an atheist" exist only in your perverted imagination, yet that does not prevent you from using your creation to abuse ALL Christians. Your pose as a defender of tolerance and pluralism is unconvincing.
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TheRealizer1 year, 5 months ago
Possibly we should explore some historical examples of religous intolerence. On 9 11 1857 a militia commanded by duly appointed leaders of the predominant (only) religous cult in the territory of Deseret, western north america, massacred 120 men, women, and children. This event took place at Mountian Meadow in the southwest part of what would become the state of Utah. Initially This was blamed on native americans, later found to be only partially true. One commander was later executed for this crime, others involved were never charged........
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