Comments for Gaza City Goes Dark After Power Cut »
Posted By TechnologyExpert 1 year, 9 months ago in NewsGaza City was plunged into darkness Sunday after Israel blocked the shipment of fuel that powers its only electrical plant in retaliation for persistent rocket attacks by Gaza militants.
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Thinker221 year, 9 months ago
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From the article:
>> "We have the choice to either cut electricity on babies in the maternity ward or heart surgery patients or stop operating rooms," Gaza Health Ministry official Dr. Moaiya Hassanain said.
Well, not exactly. The people of Gaza also have the choice to convince their leaders to live in peace with their Israeli neighbors.
>> A defiant Hamas said its attacks on Israel would not cease because of the sanctions.
>> "We will not raise the white flag, and we will not surrender, " Hamas spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri said Sunday.
Oops! Apparently, attacking Israel is preferable for democratically elected Palestinian leadership in Gaza over both the babies in the maternity ward or heart surgery patients. If this is the case, it's NOT Israel that should be blamed for the results
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Daylight1 year, 9 months ago
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Thinker22
Oops! Apparently, attacking Israel is preferable for democratically elected Palestinian leadership in Gaza over both the babies in the maternity ward or heart surgery patients. If this is the case, it's NOT Israel that should be blamed for the results
Oops! Who says that Israel is a legitimate country which oppress and occupy Palestine? people who support this illegal entity must come forward to send them back to the countries they came from. These Zionist are an obstacle to peace among the Jews, Christians and Muslims. Hamas has the right to attack Israel because Israel is an occupier and also they build settlements everyday, they don't stop at that they oppress Palestinians everyday with the support of America, Britain and the Europe. The Israelis are illegal immigrants, the Palestinians must be given the right to decide on their fate, if they don't want the Israel in their territory they must be asked to leave, to the same destination from where they came.
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walden31 year, 9 months ago
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idov1 year, 9 months ago
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To Daylight.
Two way sword friend. The so-called Arabs who have been there for 150 years, and they are only a corporal's guard, were the products of Turkish imperialism-colonialism. Most of them came in from Bosnia. A lot of Egyptians flooded in when the British arrived, but they are only guest workers, since they've been camping there for less than 100 years. We'll send the whole lot back to Bosnia and let them sort it out. The day of imperalism-colonialism is over, Turkey is gone, so they are nothing more than illegal squatters with no daddy. Israel has a right to attack Hamas because Hamas is the occupier on behalf of the squatters. I agree the Palestinian "Arabs" must be given the right to self-determination but in Bosnia, where they came from. I just knew you'd see the light of reason. Problem solved.
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AnteUp1 year, 9 months ago
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idov ~
150 years?? I fear someone is shading the truth or has been
misinformed about how many years Arabs have existed in Palestine.
From:
http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/PlainTextHi...
The Arab conquests: 7th century AD:
The great Christian cities of Syria and Palestine fall to the Arabs in rapid succession from AD 635. Damascus, in that year, is the first to be captured. Antioch follows in 636. And 638 brings the greatest prize of all, in Muslim terms, when Jerusalem is taken after a year's siege.
Or:
From the uber-neocon,Daniel Pipes,
"The Year the Arabs Discovered Palestine":
by Daniel Pipes
Jerusalem Post
September 13, 2000
"In fact, the Palestinian identity goes back, not to antiquity, but precisely to 1920. No "Palestinian Arab people" existed at the start of 1920 but by December it took shape in a form recognizably similar to today's."
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Endoscopy1 year, 9 months ago
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That is right. Muhammad started a war of aggression to conquer the world. They went as far as France and were stopped at Tours. They went as far as Vienna and were stopped. They went over the north Africa and down into parts of southern Africa. They went east into India. The offer was to convert, Pay a large extra tax or die. That was the example set by Muhammad in Medina and that is what the Palestinians are doing now. Following the example of Muhammad.
Particular people did however come from the places indicated. The surrounding Muslim countries did however create the Palestinian problem by refusing to allow them into their countries and live there. Jews have always lived there as well. Something that people quite often overlook.
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AnteUp1 year, 9 months ago
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Endoscopy ~
I'm almost speechless - lol.
What in the heck were the Crusades doing there?
Was that the first attempt to bring Liberty & Democracy to
the Middle East - you know, liberate them from their resources
AND their lives??
Tell me when you - out of fairness - start packing your bags
to leave and give this land back to our Native Americans?
You know - the rightful owners.
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Endoscopy1 year, 9 months ago
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Crusades. Your ignorance is showing. The emperor of the Eastern Roman Empire (Byzantine Empire) wrote two letters to the Pope requesting military aid to help defend itself against the people attacking it. Guess who that was? Islam on its great 1000 year expansion. The Muslims had taken Spain, Africa, The Middle East and were expanding into the Eastern Roman Empire taking it piece by piece. The Muslims were turned back at the Battle of Tours in 732. They would not be ejected from Spain until 1492. They attacked off and on Italy and Greece. At about the time of the letters the Muslims were capturing people going on Pilgrimages and either stripping them of everything or killing them and taking everything.
Europe was in a pincer movement by the Muslims. Instead of just some Military aid the Europeans sent an army to hit at the center of Islam. Sound military strategy.
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Endoscopy1 year, 9 months ago
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ROFLMAO
" Tell me when you - out of fairness - start packing your bags to leave and give this land back to our Native Americans?"
I'll tell my multiracial children that they have to cut themselves in parts. The Black part can go to Africa, The Caucasian part can go to Europe and The Indian part can go to Asia since the Indians came here through Alaska.
You ignore the fact that many Jews have lived in Israel for 4000 years. Many came back there in the last 300 years. After Hitler and his final solution most European Jews left to go to Israel. They had had enough of Europe. Nobody was kicked out or displaced at this time. There was room for everybody. The British tried but failed to keep them out. When the UN created the countries there they made a Jewish dominated country of Israel. Jordan and other Muslim countries were created as well.
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Endoscopy1 year, 9 months ago
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The Palestinians left of their own accord after being told to by the surrounding Muslim countries. They were told that after the Jews were pushed into the sea and were killed there they would be able to take what they wanted. The war of 1948 failed. The Jews were able to keep part of what they were given. In 1967 they took back what they lost and more. I never hear any crying about what Israel lost in 1948. Why?
The Muslim countries refused to take in their brother Muslims they told to leave Israel. Why?
Why do you think that the Palestinians are created by what Israel did and not the fact that they were created by the Muslim Governments in 1948?
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hyperbola1 year, 9 months ago
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This has been known to be a lie for decades endo. Why do you keep repeating so many zionist lies?
The Origin of the Palestine-Israel Conflict
Published by Jews for Justice in the Middle East
...Arab orders to evacuate non-existent
"The BBC (British Broadcasting Corporation) monitored all Middle Eastern broadcasts throughout 1948. The records, and companion ones by a United States monitoring unit, can be seen at the British Museum. There was not a single order or appeal, or suggestion about evacuation from Palestine, from any Arab radio station, inside or outside Palestine, in 1948. There is a repeated monitored record of Arab appeals, even flat orders, to the civilians of Palestine to stay put." Erskine Childers, British researcher, quoted in Sami Hadawi, "Bitter Harvest."
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/history/origin.h...
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hyperbola1 year, 9 months ago
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Nice argument endoscopy! If someone steals your house, the neighbors are responsible for lookling after you!
In the end this argument boils down to:
Anyone who likes can steal jewish property anywhere in the world - after all the jews can go to israel.
Sorry endo, but INDIVIDUALS not ideologies have rights.
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hyperbola1 year, 9 months ago
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Why should a religious discriminatory state based on the ethnic cleansing of over 7 million christians and moslems have a right to exist as a racist state?
Keep in mind that jews are only 35% of the population of Palestine. What would your reaction be if catholics in america began robbing, killing, expelling or putting in concentration camps the majority population of america AND then claimed that they had the right to exist as the nation of america? Not so different from what israel claims - don't forget that israel even discriminates against the strains of judaism that are the majority in the US.
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Thinker221 year, 9 months ago
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> "In fact, the Palestinian identity goes back, not to antiquity, but precisely to 1920. No "Palestinian Arab people" existed at the start of 1920 but by December it took shape in a form recognizably similar to today's."
Interestingly enough, neither Mr. Pipes nor anyone else knew about the "Palestinians" as a people prior to the late 1960. If it was not the case at least ONE book or article would be published about them, their unique "Palestinian" culture and their history as a recognizable "Palestinian" ethnic entity.
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x00000000091 year, 9 months ago
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Nothing wrong with a democratic elected government, but when that government abuses its power and takes over their own country from any opposition (in this case Abbas) then that is no democracy. Seems to me that we have three states over there now. Israel, Palestine (West bank), And whatever the armed militia controlled Gaza strip should be called (not Palestine). I don't see why the Palestinians don't realize that; hay wait, they are doing this to themselves by envoking a endless war that can't be won, get rid of the ones in their own territory running the show, and start working on making what they have better. In stead of constantly blaming their neighbors for their problems and trying to take from them.
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browntiger1 year, 9 months ago
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I don't understand who pays for this fuel, electricity....
I very much doubt that palestinians.... If Israel, they nutz. I would cut off any services. If UN, EU or any arab nations wants to pay - take it of own budget.
Hammas seems to have way to much money....
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Thinker221 year, 9 months ago
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> Hammas seems to have way to much money....
The fact is that Hamas has enough money to acquire those missiles they shoot into Israel as well as thousands of automatic rifles and millions of bullets for them. Enough to shoot tens of thousands of those rounds into air at every occasion... but they do not have money to pay for water, electricity and other basic services.
As I (and Hamas spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri) said it's all a matter of preferences.
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AnteUp1 year, 9 months ago
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Thinker22 ~
We wouldn't want to let the other side of the story intrude.
On CNN not moments ago - their report from Jerusalem about Gaza - the one time only opening of the checkpoint to allow humanitarian supplies (oil, medicine,etc.) is being brought about because of global pressure on the Israeli government.
Also - that Israeli citizens in Sderot and other affected communities are applying pressure for the Israeli government to do something to halt the firing of the rockets.
How about Hamas' offer of a ceasefire in June 2006?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5082820.stm
Or ANOTHER ceasefire offer December 2007 which Israel refused to even discuss?
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/937196.html
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walden31 year, 9 months ago
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I looked at your two links-
The first from the BBC quotes the Israeli military, 'when it is quiet, we will respond with quiet.' Also in the article, "Since the deaths, Hamas has fired dozens of home-made rockets at Israel, causing panic and several injuries."
The second from Haaretz states that the Israeli government won't negotiate with Hamas until Hamas recognizes Israel's right to exist. Would you negotiate with those who don't even acknowledge your right to be?
In the past when Israel has agreed to ceasefires the terror groupo have used the ceasefire as an opportunity to regroup and rearm.
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AnteUp1 year, 9 months ago
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Walden ~
Re: the right to exist stipulation
From what I have read - Hamas asked many times exactly
what boundaries they would be agreeing to accept -
geographically - and Israel would NOT say.
So, agreeing to Israel's right to exist, without a
definition of the boundaries, could have meant that Hamas
was accepting the post-1967 war boundaries or anything else
Israel decided to enter. Haniyeh was elected by the
Palestinians - need I say in Democratic elections that the
Carter Center monitored - as their leader. What kind of
leader would sign on to such an agreement? Unlike Abbas,
he is a leader that would rather fight than sign away the
property rights of his people.
I do not believe Israel wants a ceasefire OR a two-state
solution and they have been extremely sucessful in
controlling the news we get here about the particulars.
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Endoscopy1 year, 9 months ago
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The main sticking point in any negotiation with any Muslim government or movement is the following. The little fact that none of them are willing to say that Israel has a right to exist.
The boundaries laid out by the UN were blown away by the immediate attack on Israel. The Muslim countries took a lot of land at that time. The 67 war got that back. Now people want to ignore that the Arabs took land but are upset that they lost it. Explain that one away.
When will the Muslims accept Israel? The answer is never. Their religious books, the Sunnah, give them no choice.
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AnteUp1 year, 9 months ago
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walden3 ~
Is that to me? If so, I would say a ceasefire would be a good starting point for either side. Then they could work on further "joint projects" - if it holds. What could possibly be wrong with that? A cessation of hostilities would be a good foundation.
Remember when ALL the Arab nations denied Israel's right to exist? That changed years ago. Saying the words, didn't mean
that they were going to do family picnics together but it
had been a real sticking point - and it changed. Unlike
Endoscopy's "never" - some nations have already changed
their behavior.
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Thinker221 year, 9 months ago
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> Remember when ALL the Arab nations denied Israel's right to exist? That changed years ago.
Oh yes. It changed when President of Egypt decided to make peace with Israel. He was ABLE AND WILLING to do it and Israel immediately accepted the Arab peace offer. A similar story happened when King of Jordan followed the Egyptian example. The same will happen when any Arab state will declare its willingness to sign a peace agreement with Israel. Israel did not and will not refuse.
On the other hand, Israel CAN NOT make the Arabs peaceful if they're unable or unwilling to be peaceful. As long as the Palestinian Arabs and their leaders are willing the war to continue it will continue.
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Endoscopy1 year, 9 months ago
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I have been doing some studying about Islam. What it believes in the religious books they accept. They are taught to deceive the non-Muslim. They are taught that any government that does not have Sharia law is oppressing their people. They are taught that Islam will inevitably conquer the world. They believe that there is a no peace until this happens.
Traditionally they conquer an area and people have the following three choices; convert, pay an extra special tax and be subjugated, or die. Failure to pay the tax gives the person the choice of the other two.
No Muslim can ignore these beliefs for very long. Egypt and Jordan got burned bad in war. They will wait until they are assured of an overwhelming victory. Then they will turn.
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Thinker221 year, 9 months ago
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> Egypt and Jordan got burned bad in war. They will wait until they are assured of an overwhelming victory. Then they will turn.
I have no doubts about that. This means that Israel (and the rest of the world) will have to assure that no victory will be in sight for them. Thanks to the former Soviet Union Egypt already has a built-in self-destruction device that will be triggered by Israel in case Egyptian leaders will decide to attack Israel again and if there will be no other way to bring Egypt back where it belongs.
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Endoscopy1 year, 9 months ago
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"I would say a ceasefire would be a good starting point for either side."
Since the time and example of Muhammad the only reason that Muslims agree to anything is to give themselves time to reorganize and rearm for another attempt to conquer the opposition. Their history declares this loud and clear. Muhammad made treaties with the three tribes of Jews in Medina. As early as possible he broke the treaties with each one in turn expelling two tribes with only that they could carry and beheading the men and making slaves of the women and children of the third. Always on some small pretext that a few people possibly did something.
Read their religious books of the Sunnah, the Koran, Hadith, and the biography of Muhammad.
This is their ideal and religion. They are not good Muslims if they do not conform. That is the sticking point. They believe the prophet spoke so they do it.
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Thinker221 year, 9 months ago
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> So, agreeing to Israel's right to exist, without a
definition of the boundaries, could have meant that Hamas
was accepting the post-1967 war boundaries or anything else
Israel decided to enter.
This is a blatant lie. The Hamas Charter (as well as the Palestinian Charter) explicitly state that a Jewish State is NOT ACCEPTABLE within any borders.
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hyperbola1 year, 9 months ago
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this is true Thinker - a jewish racist state is NOT acceptable anymore than any other racdist state is acceptable and the world needs to reiterate that. Fortunately there are jews with much greater moriality than you.
Why Israel Has No "Right to Exist" as a Jewish State
By OREN BEN-DOR
...In our world, a world that resisted Apartheid South Africa so impressively, recognition of the right of the Jewish state to exist is a litmus test for moderation and pragmatism. The demand is that Palestinians recognise Israel's entitlement to constitutionally entrench a system of racist basic laws and policies...
...only by individuating cases of injustice, by extending claims for injustice to all historic Palestine, by fair address of them without creating another injustice for Jews and finally by ensuring elimination of all racist laws that stems from the Jewish nature of the state including that nature itself, would justice be, and with it peace, possible....
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hyperbola1 year, 9 months ago
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The path of two states is the path of separation.Its realisation would mean the entrenchment of exclusionary nationalism for many years... Such a scenario is sure to provoke more violence as it would establish the realisation and legitimisation of Zionist racism and imperialism.
.. The non-recognition of the Jewish state is an egalitarian imperative that looks both at the past and to the future. It is the uncritical recognition of the right of Israel to exist at a Jewish state which is the core hindrance for this egalitarian premise to shape the ethical challenge that Palestine poses. A recognition of Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state means the silencing that would breed more and more violence and bloodshed...
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hyperbola1 year, 9 months ago
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..It is the non-egalitarian premise of a Jewish state and the lack of empathy and corruption of all those who make us uncritically accept the right of such a state to exist that is both the cause of the refugee problem and cause for the inability to implement their return and treating them as equals thereafter.
..To claim such a right to be racist must come from a being whose victim's face must hide very dark primordial aggression and hatred of all others...
Only a single egalitarian and non sectrarian state over all the whole of historic Palestine will achieve justice and peace.
Oren Ben-Dor grew up in Israel.
http://www.counterpunch.org/bendor11202007.html
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hyperbola1 year, 9 months ago
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No Walden, it is not reasonable to talk to the zionist government of israel in those terms. The world should NOT accept institutionalized state racism.
The Trap of Recognizing Israel
.. There is far more at stake for Israel in winning this little concession from Hamas than most observers appreciate. A statement saying that Hamas recognized Israel would do much more than meet Israel's precondition for talks; it would mean that Hamas had walked into the same trap that was set earlier for Arafat and Fatah. That trap is designed to ensure that any peaceful solution to the conflict is impossible...
The concept of a state having any rights is not only strange but alien to international law. People have rights, not states. And that is precisely the point: when Israel demands that its "right to exist" be recognized, the subtext is that we are not speaking of recognition of Israel as a normal nation state but as the state of a specific people, the Jews.
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hyperbola1 year, 9 months ago
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In demanding recognition of its right to exist, Israel is ensuring Palestinians agree to Israel's character being set in stone as an exclusivist Jewish state, one that privileges the rights of Jews over all other ethnic, religious and national groups inside the same territory. The question of what such a state entails is largely glossed overboth by Israel and the West.
.. This is the bottom line for a Jewish state, just as it was for a white apartheid South Africa: if we are to survive, then we must be able to do whatever it takes to keep ourselves in power, even if it means systematically violating the human rights of all those we rule over and who do not belong to our group.
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hyperbola1 year, 9 months ago
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Ultimately, the consequences of Israel being allowed to remain a Jewish state will be felt by all of us, wherever we live â;; and not only because of the fallout from the continuing and growing anger in the Arab and Muslim worlds at the double standards applied by the West to the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians.....
For all our sakes, we must hope that the Palestinians and their Hamas government continue refusing to "recognize Israel's right to exist."
http://www.antiwar.com/orig/cook.php?articleid=...
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hyperbola1 year, 9 months ago
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I have been to israel several times and took the trouble to see what you choose to ignore.
What would your reaction be if the US only allowed Americans to be married by Mormon pastors? Not so different from what actually occurs in Israel.
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walden31 year, 9 months ago
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Now you are really grasping.
You either believe that Israel can exist as a separate country or you don't. If you don't then I wouldn't negotiate with you either.
To focus on the word "rights" and make some really crazy argument that countries and governments don't have rights is like a drowning man clinging to a toothpick in a tidal wave.
Countries and governments have rights. International law and treaties govern those rights, remedies and responsibilities.
And you claim that by saying that Israel has the right to exist...I mean it's not...I don't even know where to begin.
It's just a red herring.
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hyperbola1 year, 9 months ago
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Well Walden, it seems you have never understood the genius of American democracy. It is individual human beings, NOT ideologies, governments, religions, ... that have rights.
"""We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."""
Any government that creates millions of victims for ideology or religion is to be condemned vigorously and ended. This is why the world ended nazi germany, stalinist russia and apartheid south africa. Zionist israel is in the same category of having created millions of victims.
The ultimate hypocrisy Walden is to claim these rights as a minority in the US (which I support), but deny the same rights when your "tribe" is the majority (israel), even if that majority is in fact fictictious (jews are only 35% of the palestinian population).
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Thinker221 year, 9 months ago
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> How about Hamas' offer of a ceasefire in June 2006?
How about their "hudna" (cease fire) in 2005 when Hamas claimed that they've actually ceased fire but Israel recorded 2,990 (Two Thousand Nine Hundred Ninety) terrorist attacks? Sorry, dear, in my dictionary "cease fire" means exactly that.
> Or ANOTHER ceasefire offer December 2007 which Israel refused to even discuss?
Discuss with WHOM? Hamas did not and does not recognize Israel. In addition, their "offer" explicitly stated that Hamas would not prevent other terrorist "factions" from attacking Israel and Israelis. Islamic Jihad immediately declared that attacks would continue... Sorry, dear, in my dictionary "cease fire" means exactly that.
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hyperbola1 year, 9 months ago
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No one should recognize a racist state like israel. It is shameful for the west to have abandoned its democratic foundations by recognizing israel.
The Root Causes of Tragedy by Oren Ben-Dor
... Zionism itself should be subjected to a legal challenge. It is because of Zionism that Israel is a racist state and will ever be. Zionism is committed to the preservation of a Jewish majority and character, and because of these commitments it can not contemplate acknowledging, apologizing for and making restitution for its dark actions. Zionism is the stumbling block...
Dr. Oren Ben-Dor grew up in Israel.
http://www.jerusalemites.org/articles/english/D...
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Thinker221 year, 9 months ago
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>>The regular fuel shipment from Israel did not arrive Sunday because the fuel terminal was closed, and the power plant has almost no reserves, said Rafik Maliha, director of the power plant.
>>The U.N. organization in charge of Palestinian refugees warned the blockade would drastically affect hospitals, sewage treatment and water facilities.
>>"The logic of this defies basic humanitarian standards," said Christopher Gunness, spokesman for the U.N. Relief and Works Agency, or UNRWA.
Apparently, Mr. Christopher Gunness' believes that in response to Palestinian missiles Israel has to supply fuel and electricity to Gaza thus allowing the Palestinians to build more of these missiles. No wonder this "logic" is defied.
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Dionys1 year, 9 months ago
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Three times as many Palestinians have been killed in the Israeli-Palestinian conflicts. Israel has engaged in intentional genocide in the area. Cutting off supplies (or destroying basic needs or infrastructure such as they have in Lebanon through bombing electricity or water plants, or even bridges)is par for the Israeli course. Isn't it interesting how Israeli ghettos for the Palestinians who have been in resettlement camps for generations are increasingly becoming more and more like Nazi ghettos.
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idov1 year, 9 months ago
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"Intentional genocide." I can give you a situation where every Palestinian would disagree with that statement. Let the Palestininians and the Tutsis vote in 1994 if they would be willing to change places and fates. Number of Palestinians in favor, zero. Number of Tutsis, all. If they had switched, a million Palestininians would be dead and all Tutsis would be alive. If Palestinians themselves don't think they are living in "genocide" situation, where do you get your information? Besides that their numbers have been increasing every year, which hardly indicates an attempt to wipe them out physically. Political rhetoric to be effective has to be, like advertising, plausible. Otherwise you are insulting the intelligence of the audience and that's doesn't win you any friends, friend.
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hyperbola1 year, 9 months ago
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That is why the zionist rhetoric can only be enforced by lying and censorship idov.
Forced Migration Review
Department of International Development
University of Oxford
Palestinian displacement: a case apart?
.. The great majority of the seven million Palestinian refugees still live within 100km of the borders of Israel, the West Bank and the Gaza Strip where their homes of origin are located. They are refugees because Israel â;; committed to a permanent Jewish majority and granting citizenship to any member of the Jewish diaspora â;; denies Palestinians their basic human right to return to their homes of origin. Palestinians are the world's largest refugee population, yet...
http://www.fmreview.org/FMRpdfs/FMR26/FMR26full...
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Endoscopy1 year, 9 months ago
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I have seen with my eyes and talked to Muslims living in and amongst Israel and not in one of those areas. They do not feel put upon. The Palestinians refuse to do this. They feel that the Muslims that do this are hypocrites and deserving of death. Why?
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hyperbola1 year, 9 months ago
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Start paying more attention and you will know that your assertion does not reflect reality.
For example, you do know that 25% of the non-jewish citizens of israel (both christians and moslems) are also displaced persons whose land and property has been stolen and given to jews.
For example, you do know that there have been serious riots inside israel by christian and moslem citizens who object to being discriminated against as second class citizens.
For example, you do know that the christian and moslem citizens of israel also object to israel being a jewish state, but that they can be jailed if they say so - even if they are members of the israeli parliament.
As for your remark about moslems, you need to start understanding that the leadership in resistance has long come from palestinian christians.
Israel's Purging of Palestinian Christians
http://www.antiwar.com/cook/?articleid=10297
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Thinker221 year, 9 months ago
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> Three times as many Palestinians have been killed in the Israeli-Palestinian conflicts.
Three hundred times as many Japanese have been killed in the WWII than Americans. Nevertheless it were the Japanese who started the war and it were the Japanese who were responsible for its results.
The Palestinian Arabs started their (separate from other Arabs) war against Israel back in 1964 when they've established the PLO and deliberate mass murder of Israelis was elevated to a new level. 44 years later the Palestinian Arabs still prefer this war to a negotiated peace... and no, there are no "ghettos" or "camps" in Israel. Not a single one.
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Thinker221 year, 9 months ago
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>>The British group Oxfam called Israel's cutoff "ineffective as well as unlawful." Gisha, an Israeli group that has fought the fuel cutbacks in Israel's Supreme Court, said: "Punishing Gaza's 1.5 million civilians does not stop the rocket fire. It only creates an impossible 'balance' of human suffering on both sides of the border."
I have to agree with their opinions. Much more effective (and lawful) way to stop the rocket fire would be to turn Gaza into a giant pile of rubble... just like the Allies did in Germany and Japan back in 1945.
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AnteUp1 year, 9 months ago
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Thinker22 ~
You mention Oxfam - which brings an old story to mind.
The link below is to a NYT article in 2000 that references
an event between Hillary and Suha Arafat - the infamous "kiss" - in 1999:
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=...
The text below (from a blog) is a very typical diatribe on the same subject:
Hillary Clinton standing next to Suha Arafat in Ramallah while Suha Arafat accused Israelis and Jews of deliberately poisoning Palestinian children. It was a blatantly antiSemitic lie. It was basically a rehash of a claim made in the Middle Ages that Jews poisoned wells and thereby poisoned the water supply and caused the bubonic plague. After Hillary was safely back in the US and after Hillary saw the criticism that her gutlessness recived, Hillary then condemned Suha Arafat.
Boy! Did she. The Israel Lobby said, "JUMP" and Hill said,
"How high?"
Continued below:
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AnteUp1 year, 9 months ago
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AnteUp ~ continued to Thinker22
Only problem with all that? Take a read Thinker22 -
It WAS true!
Read, "Poisoning the Village Wells"
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?...
And that my friend is my problem with Hillary - not that she
might be a b*ll-busting progressive but that she did not
stand up for the truth - she wilted when confronted with
AIPAC pressure. Oxfam tried to protect the wells many times
from the deliberate contamination by the settlers.
Bet you never heard that on CNN - neither did I.
Once again - thank goodness for the internet!
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Thinker221 year, 9 months ago
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> Only problem with all that? Take a read Thinker22 -
> It WAS true!
No, it was not. It was just another anti-Semitic racist lie.
You see, the Jews and the Jewish state have nothing to gain from poisoning Arab wells except of more Arab hatred, violence and terrorism.
Now try to use YOUR brains if you know how to use them:
WHO is interested in more Arab hatred, violence and terrorism against the Jews, in your opinion?
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AnteUp1 year, 9 months ago
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Thinker22 ~
This is probably hopeless - but, why would Oxfam lie?
Why would Haaretz lie?
Please - if you find the concept of Israeli's as oppressors
immpossible to imagine.........go to YouTube and look
up settler violence. The videos tell a tale that is
very hard for anyone to ignore.
Groups of Israeli children and teens terrorizing Palestinian
women and children with the IDF laughing and telling the
Palestinians to get on their way. Because the Israeli children are evil or bad - NO. Because they have been
encouraged to behave this way. There IS racism in Israel.
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Thinker221 year, 9 months ago
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> This is probably hopeless - but, why would Oxfam lie?
> Why would Haaretz lie?
Probably, for the very same reason YOU lie: in order to smear Israel and the Jews.
> Groups of Israeli children and teens terrorizing Palestinian women and children...
I have to admit that the Jews in general and Israelis in particular are NOT angels... and some Israeli children and teens "terrorize" Palestinians...
Do you believe that ALL Palestinians are responsible (and, therefore, should be punished) for the actions of terrorists from Hamas and Islamic Jihad? If not WHY are you blaming ALL Jews and the Jewish state for the actions of some children and teens???
> There IS racism in Israel.
Of course. Nevertheless, the number of Israeli Arabs increased TEN TIMES since 1948 and today there are 1.2 Million Arabs who legally live as citizens in Israel. During the very same period the number of Jews in the Arab states DECREASED by 99%. Do you have a problem with that?
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AnteUp1 year, 9 months ago
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Thinker22 ~
This thread is pretty well history at this point but I
see no reason for you to say I LIE.
I made statements but I also went to the trouble of giving
links to the stories. For you to posit that Oxfam and
Haaretz -just like me,you say - LIE in order to smear Israel
and the Jews? It is an unjust statement.
You also reference many population figures about Arabs
within Israel and Jews within "the Arab states" (and what do
you mean by that - Arab states??) but YOU give no reference
or link to the source of that info. You ask, "Do I have a
problem with that?" - I don't know. I cannot offer an
opinion on the current demographics without clarification
on your use of "Arab states" and your source. I find it
doubtful - but we might have the opportunity to be on the
same page - that is literally rather than ideologically.
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Thinker221 year, 9 months ago
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> I made statements but I also went to the trouble of giving links to the stories. For you to posit that Oxfam and Haaretz -just like me,you say - LIE in order to smear Israel and the Jews? It is an unjust statement.
Do you expect me to find a link to something saying that Oxfam and Haaretz lie or you want me to find actual examples of lies made by them?
I can do either or both, you know...
> You also reference many population figures about Arabs within Israel and Jews within "the Arab states" (and what do you mean by that - Arab states??)
By Arab states I mean just that, Arab states. Member-states of the Arab League. Syrian ARAB Republic, ARAB Republic of Egypt and Saudi ARABia are just a couple of examples.
Here is some more information about the Arab League:
http://lexicorient.com/e.o/arab_league.htm
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TheRealizer1 year, 9 months ago
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Thinker221 year, 9 months ago
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> The U.S. and Israel are good at reducing entire areas into rubble!!!!!!
Well, if you believe in your words above you'll have no troubles to list a couple of such areas Israel reduced into rubble. On the other hand, if you can not answer this question I'll have to conclude that you DO NOT believe in your own words...
The best definition of a liar is "one who does not believe in his/her own words."
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Daylight1 year, 9 months ago
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Thinker22
The best definition of a liar is "one who does not believe in his/her own words."
The best definition of a liar is that the one who repeats his lie hundreds of thousands of times and believe it as the truth. Israel has been taught an trained by the Hitlers regime, so there is no difference between Hitler and Olmert today.
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walden31 year, 9 months ago
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Endoscopy1 year, 9 months ago
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Every time Israel cave to a demand the Palestinians want even more. What they really want is death to all Jews. That is the only thing that they will accept. Muhammad's solution for the Jewish tribe of Qurayzah. Behead the men and make the women and children slaves. When Arafat made a treaty that the Palestinians didn't like he told them it will be like the treaty with the Qurayzah. They were happy then.
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Thinker221 year, 9 months ago
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> I don't believe Israel should have withdrawn.
> Are you so pleased with the results of the withdrawal?
You don't believe Israel should have withdrawn...
Apparently, you were pleased with the almost daily attacks of walking bombs in Israeli schools, markets and buses. Otherwise you would not ask for all those terrorists and their supporters who are now pretty safely contained behind the wall in Gaza to be INSIDE Israel.
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cherev1 year, 9 months ago
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"Apparently, you were pleased with the almost daily attacks of walking bombs in Israeli schools, markets and buses. Otherwise you would not ask for all those terrorists and their supporters who are now pretty safely contained behind the wall in Gaza to be INSIDE Israel."
I noticed you failed to answer my question, but went ahead and made a moronic assumption. There is another alternative. The world won't like it, of course, but the world always protests any effort to save Jewish lives.
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Thinker221 year, 9 months ago
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> I noticed you failed to answer my question, but went ahead and made a moronic assumption.
I believe that my reply was pretty obvious. Yes, I prefer to have the Palestinians in general and Palestinian terrorists, in particular, OUT of Israel.
The "moronic assumption" was a pretty clear summary of your position. You see, if Israeli Jews are allowed to live and move freely in and out of Gaza and the West Bank it means that the Palestinians from Gaza and the West Bank can not be prevented from moving freely in and out of Israel. You've stated that this was what you wanted, didn't you?
> There is another alternative.
What is it, elimination of all Arabs?
You may pray for it if you wish but I'm afraid that it is not going to happen.
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AnteUp1 year, 9 months ago
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walden3 ~
I'll give you three links to stories by Gideon Levy -
don't ask me why - I just want to share with you.
They in no way support the idea that Israeli's were taught and trained by Hitler's Third Reich - not something I would ever say. But there have been times when the plight of Gaza and the West Bank have brought to mind the Warsaw Ghetto.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/943711.html
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/907708.html
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/927531.html
P.S. I will add that the Israeli's have broken more than one ceasefire that was working by carrying out either a "routine
incursion" or a targeted assasination and then they sit back and wait for the rocket response they knew it would provoke.
Only then does the U.S. puts it's two cents-worth and condemn the "terrorists".
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Endoscopy1 year, 9 months ago
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Daylight
The Muslims are the ones doing the killing and launching of rockets. This has been going on to Israel since they first attacked it in 1948. People like you understand that the Sunnah says they must do this but you tell your lies on this site and act as if it was Israels fault. Just like Muhammad did to the Jews in Medina. That is the pattern of Muslims since then. Make up an excuse over some little thing and then attack and kill people. The last tribe of Jews men were beheaded and women and children made slaves. Why? Because they saw what had happened to the other tribes of Jews and made an alliance to try and protect themselves. Muhammad set someone to create distrust with lies and then attacked them after that. Sirat Rusul Allah is my reference to this.
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Endoscopy1 year, 9 months ago
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The Muslims in the area today just follow Muhammad's example. After dealing with you I have done a lot of reading about Muhammad and your religious books. It is a religion of war not peace. Your veiled threats to me show that you believe the war side of the religion.
I find that your accusation that Hitlers Germany trained the Jews is absolutely disgusting. He tried to kill all of them. Muslims wish the same thing. Why? When Muhammad went to them and presented himself as a prophet of God they looked at their Torah and found too many problems with what he was saying and rejected him.
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hyperbola1 year, 9 months ago
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That is not hard thinker.
Destroyed Palestinian Villages
A Reign of Terror & Systematic Expulsion
"In our country there is room only for the Jews. We shall say to the Arabs: Get out! If they don't agree, if they resist, we shall drive them out by force."
Professor Ben-Zion Dinur
Israel's First Minister of Education, 1954
from History of the Haganah
The systematic annihilation of over 85 percent of all existing Palestinian villages in the wake of the 1948 war is a reality that until recently Israeli historians have ignored. It was a process that accompanied terror, mass murder and systematic expulsion. The infamous massacre of Dayr Yasin has been presented by a majority of Israeli historians as an isolated incident carried out by right-wing extremists. History dictates that we examine the atrocity of Dayr Yasin within the framework of a series of well-organized and systematic attacks designed to instill terror and induce mass exodus.
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hyperbola1 year, 9 months ago
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Since 1983, the Center has focused upon the use of oral history techniques--supported by other methods--to conduct research and collect documentation on Palestinian villages destroyed in the wake of the 1948 War....
http://www.jerusalemites.org/crimes/destroyed_v...
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Daylight1 year, 9 months ago
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walden3
How do we stop the missiles from being launched into Israel?
Are the Palestinian people interested in living in peace?
No self respecting people will live in peace with an entity like Israel. Israelis are oppressors, occupiers and they have killed thousands of people and destroyed hundreds of thousands of of houses and made millions of people refugees.Until these people are allowed to return and Israel stop building those settlements and leave Palestine this problem will not be solved, If you don't solve this problem and support Israel then you won't live in peace, we have been seeing this. Muslims have no problem with the West, the problem is your support to Israel. West will only realize when something very bad happens or when the Western world become bankrupt by supporting and building Israel stronger in the region but the point is if all the Muslim countries turn their guns against Israel then that will be the end of Israel and nobody knows where it going to end.
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Daylight1 year, 9 months ago
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crghss
"all the Muslim countries turn their guns against Israel "
You guys tried this a couple of times remember. You got your butts kicked pretty good. So maybe this isn't such a good idea.
It is only a matter of time, if this situation drags on finally you can see Israeli butt get kicked. Past success is not a guarantee for a future success. They got their butt kicked in Lebanon, their invincibility is a myth, it is as same as the American invincibility in Iraq.The Right wing war monger like you will never learn from the past experience. With out the support of the US and the Europe Israel will be dead country.
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crghss1 year, 9 months ago
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"With out the support of the US and the Europe Israel will be dead country"
But they do have our support. And the only modern ally you had was Russia. And now their not helping you any longer. So reality is that Israel is here to stay.
"They got their butt kicked in Lebanon"
The only loser in the Lebanon war was Lebanon. It's a travesty that people like you, Iran and Syria can't let the people of Lebanon live in peace and keep using their nation as a pawn to kill Israeli's. It's their country, leave them alone to live in peace.
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cherev1 year, 9 months ago
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"With out the support of the US and the Europe Israel will be dead country"
Daylight is deliberately lying if he claims that Europe supports Israel. Of course, that would be par for the course for him. And, while the US supports Israel, if it didn't, Israel does have the means to defend itself. Of course, that would make it bad for everyone, wouldn't it?
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idov1 year, 9 months ago
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Israel has had to fight wars in 1948, 1956, 1967, 1973, 1982, 1991 (passively), 2006, people got killed and property was destroyed. Just some context. The Arabs drove out 850,000 Jews, stealing $3 billion in property. A few hundred thousand Arabs fled their homes voluntarily leaving behind property worth maybe a million or two. You want to solve the refugee problem, ask the Saudis to pay us $3 billion out of their oil profits, that's chump change to them, and we move on to another subject. The threat of another war is real, if Iran is allowed to build a bomb. If it were to come to that estimates are we would lose 800,000, Iran would lose 16 million, and Syria if they moved sideways would be effaced from the map. Our second strike capability comes from the sea so even if they damage our land resourcesd, they are still dead meat. In any event it won't be the end of Israel.
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Thinker221 year, 9 months ago
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> How do we stop the missiles from being launched into Israel?
It is necessary to convince the Palestinian Arabs that peace is preferable over a war.
> Are the Palestinian people interested in living in peace?
No, not yet. The price of their war against Israel is low enough so they're willing to continue paying it. Only when the price Palestinians pay will become high enough for them to refuse paying it any more will peace become possible.
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Commodore11 year, 9 months ago
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The Hamas are such idiots! They won't even stop rocket attacks to help their babies and heart patients. In their arrogance they can't even consider the idea of peace. The Palestinians are really in a quandry to have such incompetent and arrogant leaders. Of course they are blaming Israel for this. The Palestinians should consider new leadership.
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crghss1 year, 9 months ago
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If Hamas doesn't kill Israeli's then Iran and Syria (and people like Daylight) won't give them any money. So they have to do what ever Iran & Syria demand at the expense of their own people. If not they are nothing and will have to get a real job. Why the world keeps funding this I have no idea. If the world stops funding both sides then they would have to make peace. The Palestinians couldn't exit without welfare.
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Daylight1 year, 9 months ago
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crghss
If Hamas doesn't kill Israeli's then Iran and Syria (and people like Daylight) won't give them any money. So they have to do what ever Iran & Syria demand at the expense of their own people.
Not only Iran and Syria but also the countries in the region know Israel is a menace to their way of life, so they also have the right to help their fellow Muslims to drive out the Israelis lock, stock and barrel. Another few decades of war in the region will make America bankrupt like the Russia, and you will be begging on the street for helping a liability called Israel. Israel is not helping America or any European nation, the Western world will be better of without Israel bu it might take some more time to realize, when all the resources are drained out and you are pushed behind competing with other fast growing giants like China and India. Your are blinded by your arrogance of power and wealth.
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walden31 year, 9 months ago
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"But isn't Israel not only calling for the destruction of Palestine but making it happen?"
No. I don't believe this at all. I think the Israeli people would like nothing better than to live in peace among peaceful neighbors. Israel is willing to accept a free and sovereign Palestine.
Is Palestine willing to accept a free and sovereign Israel?
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crghss1 year, 9 months ago
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In time the Palestinians will leave the west bank and Gaza. Fewer and fewer stay around. What for. As the years pass and more and more of the older Palestinians pass on there will be fewer left. You'll still have a few puppets of Iran and Syria but they will be an inconvenience nothing more. Syria's government will be lucky to stay in power over the next couple of decades. The people want democracy and sooner or later this will happen.
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x00000000091 year, 9 months ago
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seems that they would have a lot more money coming from Israel if they cooperated with Israel over what they get from Syria and Iran put together. Their support from Syria and Iran doesn't seem to even be enough to keep their power on.
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pcknowledge1 year, 9 months ago
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"seems that they would have a lot more money coming from Israel if they cooperated with Israel"
Nope. Israel doesn't want to cooperate with the Palestinians. Neither side is fond of the other. Israel has the upper hand in the conflict because they are supported by our government.
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cherev1 year, 9 months ago
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"Israel doesn't want to cooperate with the Palestinians. "
So there have been no sacrifices by Israel over the last 15 years? Uprooting 8500 Jews so that the bloodthirsty and murderous Arabs could have Gaza all to themselves is a sign that the Israelis don't want to cooperate? When the Jews left, they even dug up the bodies in Jewish cemetaries so that the Arabs wouldn't have any Jews "contaminating" their "holy soil".
"Neither side is fond of the other. Israel has the upper hand in the conflict because they are supported by our government."
So cut the aid. Implement a weapons ban. Take off the leash. Please.
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hyperbola1 year, 9 months ago
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Actually the world should begin to apply the policies called for by sane jews, like this jewish member of the british parliament.
The case for sanctions against Israel
What worked with apartheid can bring peace to the Middle East
http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,...
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cherev1 year, 9 months ago
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"We have the choice to either cut electricity on babies in the maternity ward or heart surgery patients or stop operating rooms," Gaza Health Ministry official Dr. Moaiya Hassanain said."
"babies in the maternity ward" = less future terrorists
"heart surgery patients or stop operating rooms" = less current terrorists
Death to all terrorists, terrorist supporters, terrorist sympathizers, terrorist appeasers, and terrorist apologists.
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Isoparm1 year, 9 months ago
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I imagine that Hitler's supporters were just as dismissive about the suffering of Jews as you are toward Arabs.
Your's is the arrogance of the truly stupid. Because of people like you, Israel will never know peace. And sooner or later weapons of mass destruction will be used against it.
Increasingly, more and more Americans are seeing that the main cause of the problems in the ME is the occupation of Arab land by non-indigenous people who justify their crime by sharing the label "Jew". Americans are increasingly seeing the harm to our security that our support for Israel is bringing to us. As more and more Americans become aware of this, there is a strong likelihood of "blowback" against Jews in this country. Is this what you want? You should quit being so selfish and try looking at the situation from a position of objectivity for a change. Although considering your jewish indoctrination, this may not be possible for you. Try anyway.
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walden31 year, 9 months ago
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"Arab land" What exactly is Arab land? Is some land held aside specially just for Arabs?
"Jewish indoctrination" Can you tell me what that is too please?
Support for Israel is to blame, huh? How about the US overthrowing Iranian PM Mosadeqq? How about empowering and arming Saddam Hussein for years? How about supporting the Taliban when it suited us?
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walden31 year, 9 months ago
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No, but it's just as wrong to say Arab land then is it not?
BTW my uncle liberated concentration camps in 1944-45. You should do some research on concentration camps before you compare the plight of the Palestinians to living in concentration camps.
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idov1 year, 9 months ago
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Anti-Semites today such as isoparm are the only people around obsessed with the WWII era. Note that they can't write a line without referring to it.
The fact is that Nazism did not die. The original European version did, but not the Muslim branch. Hitler promised his pal, the Palestinian leader, the Mufti, that Phase Two of the Holocaust would be the annihilation of the Middle Eastern Jews. In return the Mufti headed SS Muslim units in the Balkans which murdered myriads of Serbs and Jews. When the UN offered the Palestinian Arabs a state, the Mufti rejected it and rolled the dice on Phase Two. He lost, passed the leadership of the Mufti Nazism movement to his nephew Arafat. On his last legs, Arafat launched his Intifada on the pretext of defending the Temple Mount to stir up Muslims everywhere to pounce on Israel and implement Phase Two. Osama with his idea of restoring the Caliphate derailed Arafat's scheme. Today Hamas has combined both goals, Phase Two and a new Caliphate.
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hyperbola1 year, 9 months ago
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Well, the nazis promised the zionists much more even earlier. Kind of fits in with the "special race" philosophy of both groups.
51 Documents:
Zionist Collaboration with the Nazis
... Zionist factions competed for the honor of allying to Hitler. By 1940-41, the "Stern Gang," among them Yitzhak Shamir, later Prime Minister of Israel, presented the Nazis with the "Fundamental Features of the Proposal of the National Military Organization in Palestine (Irgun Zvai Leumi) Concerning the Solution of the Jewish Question in Europe and the Participation of the NMO in the War on the Side of Germany."
Avraham Stern and his followers announced that...
http://www.counterpunch.org/brenner1223.html
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Endoscopy1 year, 9 months ago
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Isoparm
You seem to think that it is all right for the surrounding Muslim countries to attack Israel over and over again. If Israel loses territory you see no problem. If they gain territory big problem. The Palestinians were created in 1948 by the surrounding Muslims countries. They were told to leave before they attacked. When they failed to "drive the Jews into the sea and kill them there" they refused to give the Palestinians a place to go. These fine upstanding Muslims refused to take in their brother Muslims who did what they were told by them. Those countries created the problem but everybody wants to jump on Israel. They didn't create the problem and people like you want them to solve it.
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Endoscopy1 year, 9 months ago
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Your non-indigenous people is very laughable. They lived there for thousands of years. Even when the Romans kicked them out some stayed. The prayer for the Jews for the last two thousand years has been "next year in Jerusalem". Now many have returned to their HOMELAND. Thus joining those who never left and those who returned over the last few centuries.
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hyperbola1 year, 9 months ago
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You are sprouting ancient zionist propaganda again. These myths were exposed as lies ages ago.
Didn't the Palestinians leave their homes voluntarily during the 1948 war?
"Israeli propaganda has largely relinquished the claim that the Palestinian exodus of 1948 was 'self-inspired'. Official circles implicitly concede that the Arab population fled as a result of Israeli action â;; whether directly, as in the case of Lydda and Ramleh, or indirectly, due to the panic that and similar actions (the Deir Yassin massacre) inspired in Arab population centers throughout Palestine. However, even though the historical record has been grudgingly set straight, the Israeli establishment still refused to accept moral or political responsibility for the refugee problem it â;; or its predecessors â;; actively created." Peretz Kidron, quoted in "Blaming the Victims,"
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hyperbola1 year, 9 months ago
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Arab orders to evacuate non-existent
"The BBC (British Broadcasting Corporation) monitored all Middle Eastern broadcasts throughout 1948. The records, and companion ones by a United States monitoring unit, can be seen at the British Museum. There was not a single order or appeal, or suggestion about evacuation from Palestine, from any Arab radio station, inside or outside Palestine, in 1948. There is a repeated monitored record of Arab appeals, even flat orders, to the civilians of Palestine to stay put." Erskine Childers, British researcher, quoted in Sami Hadawi, "Bitter Harvest."
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hyperbola1 year, 9 months ago
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Ethnic cleansing â;; continued
"That Ben-Gurion's ultimate aim was to evacuate as much of the Arab population as possible from the Jewish state can hardly be doubted, if only from the variety of means he employed to achieve his purpose...most decisively, the destruction of whole villages and the eviction of their inhabitants...even [if] they had not participated in the war and had stayed in Israel hoping to live in peace and equality, as promised in the Declaration of Independence." Israeli author, Simha Flapan, "The Birth of Israel."
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hyperbola1 year, 9 months ago
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The deliberate destruction of Arab villages to prevent return of Palestinians
"During May [1948] ideas about how to consolidate and give permanence to the Palestinian exile began to crystallize, and the destruction of villages was immediately perceived as a primary means of achieving this aim...[Even earlier,] On 10 April, Haganah units took Abu Shusha... The village was destroyed that night... Khulda was leveled by Jewish bulldozers on 20 April... Abu Zureiq was completely demolished... Al Mansi and An Naghnaghiya, to the southeast, were also leveled. . .By mid-1949, the majority of [the 350 depopulated Arab villages] were either completely or partly in ruins and uninhabitable." Benny Morris, "The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem, 1947-1949.
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/history/origin.h...
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Thinker221 year, 9 months ago
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> The Palestinians were created in 1948 by the surrounding Muslims countries.
Not exactly. "Palestinians" were invented 20 years later. The first official definition of "Palestinians" was given in 1968 in the Palestinian National Charter. Before that there were Arabs or "Arabs of Palestine".
On the other hand, there was a Palestinian Brigade fighting the Nazis during WWII as a part of the British Army. Guess what? ALL soldiers in the Palestinian Brigade were... Jews.
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NelsonR1 year, 9 months ago
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Personally I give Israel credit for this act BUT
when will the Palestinians understand, Gandhi and MLK had it right with the idea of demonstrations with non violence. Is it that hard to understand? Violence begets Violence.
Is there any real sensible leader in the Arab World or is Violence the way to live?
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Endoscopy1 year, 9 months ago
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Read the life of Muhammad and you will get a better understanding of Muslims. This is the person they are supposed to emulate.
He made and broke treaties over nothing significant. He had people assassinated. He raided caravans to pay for his army. He issued decrees to a lot of tribes to convert or die. His war on the different tribes brought him an immense amount of wealth that he used again for his army. Anyone they conquered they would give him 1/5 of the possessions and the rest was split amongst the army. Jews and Christians were either killed or forced to leave the Arabian peninsula. One tribe of Jews he had the men beheaded, and the women and children taken as slaves. He made it an acceptable practice to lie to the non-Muslims.
Then you wonder why the Muslim leaders act the way they do.
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Thinker221 year, 9 months ago
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> Is there any real sensible leader in the Arab World or is Violence the way to live?
The late President of Egypt Mohammad Anwar Sadat was one such leader.
The was Jordanian King Hussein of Jordan is another such leader.
His son, King Abdullah of Jordan is committed to peace no less than his father.
Yes, there are real leaders in the Arab world. Too bad there are few of them.
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Thinker221 year, 9 months ago
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> when will the Palestinians understand, Gandhi and MLK had it right with the idea of demonstrations with non violence. Is it that hard to understand?
As a matter of fact, it is. You see, sometimes non-violent demonstrations are effective, sometimes they're not.
Do you think that a non-violent demonstration of one group of people (say, Hispanics) demanding all members of another group of people (say, Chinese) to die would result in mass suicide of the Chinese? I doubt it.
Similarly, the Palestinians demand no less than destruction of the Jewish state and elimination of Jews and I do not believe that any amount of non-violent demonstrations will cause this to happen.
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pcknowledge1 year, 9 months ago
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I expected that reply from you cherev. In any conversation, you will inevitably get personal. There is no point saying:"From my knowledge of you." I am neither a muslim, nor a Jew. I based my opinion on what I saw there. I'm not a fan of Hamas, but I'm not a fan of the IDF either.
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pcknowledge1 year, 9 months ago
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That's incorrect. Gandhi did critisize the Arabs for the methods they used. You should read what he said before you post inaccuracies. It doesn't matter wether you care or not. The methods the IDF uses are just as wrong as the methods Hamas uses.
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cherev1 year, 9 months ago
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"Gandhi did critisize the Arabs for the methods they used."
Well, you never post a reference to that. For that matter, you don't post references to where he criticized the Jews either. But it hardly matters.
In this case, the Israelis are non-violently cutting off power to the bloodthirsty and murderous Arabs. So it is safe to assume that Ghandi and you should approve.
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Thinker221 year, 9 months ago
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> The methods the IDF uses are just as wrong as the methods Hamas uses.
Can you offer BETTER methods the IDF should use to fight Palestinian terrorism and to protect Israeli lives and territory? BETTER means no less effective and no more costly, among other things.
Please consider that as long as you don't know such BETTER methods it means that the methods IDF is using are the BEST methods you know.
It makes little sense to complain that the best is not good enough.
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cherev1 year, 9 months ago
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"Gandhi's grandson went to Palestine & said he believes the Palestinians are being oppressed. "
That's different than Ghandi, isn't it? What he believes doesn't matter to me.
I believe terrorists, and anyone who does anything to promote their terrorist agenda, should be exterminated. And I don't care how violently it's done.
You, obviously, have a problem with that. Which is fine with me too.
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hyperbola1 year, 9 months ago
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So you think zionists should be exterminated for their state terrorism cherev? Here is a south african jew you could learn from.
Israel 2007: worse than apartheid
Travelling into Palestine's West Bank and Gaza Strip, is like a surreal trip back into an apartheid state of emergency....
The "security barrier" is designed to crush the human spirit as much as to enclose the Palestinians in ghettoes.... Its route cuts huge swathes into the West Bank to incorporate into Israel illegal Jewish settlements -- and annexes more and more Palestinian territory. ...
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hyperbola1 year, 9 months ago
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... We are leaving through Tel Aviv airport and the Israeli official catches my accent. "Are you South African?' he asks in an unmistakable Gauteng accent. The young man left Benoni as a child in 1985. "How's Israel?" I ask. "This is a f**ked-up place," he laughs, "I'm leaving for Australia soon."..
http://www.mg.co.za/articlePage.aspx?area=/insi...
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Endoscopy1 year, 9 months ago
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Amazing that since the 80's and early 90's when I made several trips to Israel that things changed so much. I went all over Israel and went into the Gaza strip. No problem walking around the area taking pictures of the island talked about in mythology. I shopped in Jerusalem and drove all over the country. I made a complete circuit of the Lake Kinneret (Sea of Galilee) and drove down the Jordan River. This was while they still had not given the Sinai Peninsula back to Egypt.
No oppression. Talking to the Muslims who lived in Israel as part of the country they were upset with the Palestinians.
The Palestinians made their own problems and now they have to live with the result. I saw the article about letting some Palestinians out to go to work and wondered how soon would it take for a suicide bomber to go out.
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cherev1 year, 9 months ago
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And what does that mean? Are they the experts?
As I said, I'm interested in the preservation of Jewish lives. Evidently, Ghandi was not since he advocated non-violence in opposition to Hitler, and was content to see millions of Jews exterminated rather than advocate violence against the Nazis. His grandson appears to be cut from the same cloth.
Now, what have you done to preserve Jewish lives?
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Dionys1 year, 9 months ago
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One person's terrorists are another person's freedom fighters. Therein lies the problem. From an Arab or Palestinian perspective the Israelis and the US government are terrorists. If you think about it, they're not too far from the truth. The Israeli government's killed more than three times as many Palestinians in the conflicts they've had. The US Government's killed over a million innocent Arabs in Iraq through 'collateral damage' or simple thuggery. All because a bunch of SAUDI ARABIANS (not Iraqis) flew into the twin towers and killed 3000 Americans.
One million or more dead versus 3000. Who's the bigger terrorist?
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hyperbola1 year, 9 months ago
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Well, the splintering of arab states into small, weak sectarian enclaves has been one of the stated goals of zionism for over a century. In the case of iraq, the PNAC document petty much shows very extensive zionist involvement in plans for attacking iraq already in the 1990s.
Drinking the Kool-Aid
W. Patrick Lang
Col. Lang is president of Global Resources, Inc. and former defense intelligence officer at the Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA).
... By October 2001, Undersecretary of Defense for Policy Douglas Feith had established a two-man intelligence cell inside his office with the job of combing the intelligence community's classified files to establish a pattern of evidence linking Saddam Hussein to al-Qaeda and the 9/11 attacks. The permanent, statutory agencies of the national intelligence community could not support such beliefs on the basis of what they saw in their own files....
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hyperbola1 year, 9 months ago
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..This kind of single-minded intensity in pursuing his goals was nothing new for Feith. In July 1996, he had been a principal author of a study prepared for Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. This paper advocated abrogation of the Oslo accords and the launch of a new regional balance-of-power scheme based on American-Israeli military dominance ...
.. The study was produced by the "Institute for Advanced Strategic and Political Studies" (IASPS), a Jerusalem-based Likud-party-linked think tank, and was called "A Clean Break: A New Strategy for Securing the Realm." In it, Feith and company wrote, "Israel can shape its strategic environment, in cooperation with Turkey and Jordan, by weakening, containing and even rolling back Syria. This effort can focus on removing Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq -- an important Israeli strategic objective in its own right ...
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hyperbola1 year, 9 months ago
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..The study-group leader was Richard Perle. Other members of the team included Charles Fairbanks Jr., a longtime friend of Paul Wolfowitz since their student days together at the University of Chicago; and David Wurmser, an American Enterprise Institute Middle East fellow, and his wife, Meyrav Wurmser, who headed the Washington, DC office of the Middle East Media Research Institute (MEMRI). Her boss in that group was a retired Israeli intelligence officer, Yigal Carmon. On July 8, 1996, Richard Perle presented the "Clean Break" document to Netanyahu, who was visiting Washington. Two days later, the Israeli prime minister unveiled the document as his own regional foreign-policy design in a speech before a joint session of the U.S. Congress....
http://www.mepc.org/journal_vol11/0406_lang.asp
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Thinker221 year, 9 months ago
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> One person's terrorists are another person's freedom fighters. Therein lies the problem.
Not exactly. The statement above is not a "problem" but a popular lie. Here is the definition of terrorism that makes the difference between the two VERY OBVIOUS:
TERRORISM IS DELIBERATE ATTACKING OF NON-COMBATANTS WITH POLITICAL GOALS.
> From an Arab or Palestinian perspective...
This is another lie. Palestinians ARE Arabs.
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pcknowledge1 year, 9 months ago
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"One million or more dead versus 3000. Who's the bigger terrorist?"
You should know by now that American lifes & Jewish lifes are worth much more then any other. Our government's & Israel's government's foreign policies have always reflected that. For example, I don't often see "my fellow Americans" dennouce the thousands of innocent Iraqis that have died in this Bush led war.
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cherev1 year, 9 months ago
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"You should know by now that American lifes & Jewish lifes are worth much more then any other."
Not to you, though. Not to you.
"For example, I don't often see "my fellow Americans" dennouce the thousands of innocent Iraqis that have died in this Bush led war."
Why would we denouce the Iraqis that have died? That makes as much sense as the rest of your arguments.
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pcknowledge1 year, 9 months ago
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Oops I meant to say I don't often see "my fellow Americans" dennounce the fact that thousands of innocent Iraqis died in Bush's unjustified invasion of Iraq.
"Not to you, though. Not to you."
You're right. To me, every persons life is equal to another person's.
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cherev1 year, 9 months ago
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"I don't often see "my fellow Americans" dennounce the fact that thousands of innocent Iraqis died in Bush's unjustified invasion of Iraq."
You can't be serious. "Americans" like you denounce it all the time.
"To me, every persons life is equal to another person's. "
Well, I believe you value the life of the terrorist at least as much as you value the life of his victim. Other than that, though, no sale.
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crghss1 year, 9 months ago
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If Islam wouldn't have attacked the US, not just 9/11 but multiple times. Would there be a "One million" dead Iraqi's? Also that number is way to high. And most of the killing was done Arab against Arab or should I say Sunni against Shia. So who is the "terrorist"? I think that's obvious.
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Thinker221 year, 9 months ago
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> "And most of the killing was done Arab against Arab or should I say Sunni against Shia."
> Iraq was much more peaceful before Bush invaded Iraq.
As far as I recall the Iran-Iraq war when more than one Million Sunnis and Shia killed each other happened during that "much more peaceful period" of Iraqi history...
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Thinker221 year, 9 months ago
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> You should know by now that American lifes & Jewish lifes are worth much more then any other.
Let me put it VERY CLEAR so you will understand:
For any Israeli his/her life and the lives of his/her family members are worth MUCH MORE than the lives of ALL Arabs, Palestinian or otherwise.
Please try to explain it to the Palestinian and Arab leadership who tend to believe that somehow Israel should allow them to murder Israelis for whatever reason.
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pcknowledge1 year, 9 months ago
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"For any Israeli his/her life and the lives of his/her family members are worth MUCH MORE than the lives of ALL Arabs, Palestinian or otherwise."
That truly is a very dangerous & very scary mindset. I never knew a human being can actually believe the lifes of Israelis are worth more then the lifes of people of any other race.
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Thinker221 year, 9 months ago
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> That truly is a very dangerous & very scary mindset.
Well, I have to disagree with you. This mindset is pretty healthy and assured survival of mankind throughout history. This mindset guaranteed the basic right of every human being for self-defense.
On the other hand, I'm sure that if some bloody murderer will try to kill YOU or YOUR children you will not interfere. After all, you're NOT a hypocrite, are you?
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Daylight1 year, 9 months ago
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This is indeed the status of state of Zionist state of Israel:
Avi Dichter
Avi Dichter was head of Shin Beth when Israel killed Saleh Shehada
An Israeli minister has canceled a visit to the UK over concerns he could be arrested on war crimes charges.
The foreign ministry said an "extreme leftist" organization was likely to file a legal complaint against Public Security Minister Avi Dichter.
He was the domestic intelligence agency chief in 2002 when Israel bombed a Hamas military leader's house killing him, his bodyguard and 15 civilians.
British law allows private citizens to file complaints of alleged war crimes.
"Minister Dichter has canceled this trip following threats of him being arrested in Great Britain. This is an intolerable situation," said his spokesman Barak Sari.
Continues
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Daylight1 year, 9 months ago
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He had been invited to London as keynote speaker at a counter terrorism seminar at Kings College.
The visit was called off after the UK government had been unable to guarantee him immunity, his office said, in the event of a private citizens complaint leading to an arrest warrant for war crimes.
'Mistaken attack'
The Shin Beth agency, headed by Mr Dichter between 2000 and 2005, helped plan the assassination of Hamas military commander Saleh Shehada in July 2002.
Nine children were killed in the raid. A one-tonne bomb was dropped on Mr Shehada's house. The dead included his wife and his three children.
In the face of international condemnation, including Israel's main ally the US, Israel conducted an investigation and concluded that the raid had been a "mistake".
In 2006, the Israeli army scrapped plans to send one of its generals to a course at a British military academy over fears he could be arrested on war crimes charges.
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Daylight1 year, 9 months ago
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A year earlier, former Gen Doron Almog narrowly avoided arrest for his involvement in the Shehada assassination. He refused to leave his aircraft after a tip-off by Israeli diplomats.
Correspondents say this is the first time an Israeli minister has canceled a visit over fears of a private citizen's complaint.
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Daylight1 year, 9 months ago
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All the Israeli leaders and most of the American leaders are war criminals they are worse than the Nazi criminals. Who else in the world has the power to these criminals and put them behind bars or hang them. No one can do that except the American people. If American people are people with conscience please do not support criminals to be your leaders. God will certainly judge you, however much you may deny God's Justice, it will prevail. American support for Israel has embolden Israel to kill people at will, they are not bothered about international laws or UN sanctions because America is always there to bail them out and continue to support their terrorism in the land of the Palestinians. Even the Arab puppets in the Middle east welcome criminals like George Bush with pomp and pageantry, is a shameful to the entire Muslim world.
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walden31 year, 9 months ago
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"God will certainly judge you..."
It's an odd God that you pray to when you write stuff like this:
"Hamas has the right to attack..."
"...there is no difference between Hitler and Olmert today..."
"...they also have the right to help their fellow Muslims to drive out the Israelis lock, stock and barrel."
When you promote violence and hatred the way that you do, you should fear a just God.
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hyperbola1 year, 9 months ago
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Well Walden, do you think that continuing zionist racism and ethnic cleansing in palestine does not promote violence and hatred? Pretty much tribal blinkers. Fortunately the number of moral jews is growing rapidly.
Overcoming Zionism
by Dr. Oren Ben-Dor
Joel Kovel's book written by a well-known American Jewish scholar and humanist is one of the most thought-provoking, multi-layered and consistent analysis of the situation in Palestine I came across....
.. Kovel shows how Zionists ideologues from the most militarised to the mildest harboured tribal phobia and aggression which could spare no empathy to the people who lived in historical Palestine. The result was that the indigenous population in Palestine was gradually dispossessed, ethnically cleansed in 1948 and has never been allowed to return.
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hyperbola1 year, 9 months ago
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..The separatist mentality of tribalism has been effectuating systematic racial discrimination against Arabs through racial basic laws and policies, using every opportunity to portray them as a 'demographic threat' despite them being, at least on paper, 'equal' citizens of the State of Israel. In the Jewish state, any notion of democracy is structurally and legally constrained for the enhancement and protection of the tribe.
...the oppression, dispossession of, and discrimination against, Palestinians, is a world problem. Tribal-based coordinates of 'pragmatism' and the 'never again the Holocaust' rhetoric blocks serious discussion about the possibility of de-colonisation and the establishment of civic and egalitarian constitution all over historic Palestine. Tribe trumps equality. that seemingly reasonable but in fact callous world endorsement of right of Israel to exist as a Jewish state and to commit crimes that makes this colonisation so unique and ruthless.
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hyperbola1 year, 9 months ago
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The incompatibility between Zionism and democracy hints at the deeper ontological actuality that tribalism can never develop egalitarian sentiments towards the fundamental interest towards all others can not develop constitutional guarantees of their deep interests. Tribalism must end up preserving the most ruthless and stubborn form of ethno-nationalism or Ethnocracy in which the tribal identity is sure to find thousand violent ways to reinvent its self-imposed ghetto.
Kovel holds the mirror to the face of world Jewry for lending themselves to protect that state thereby becoming themselves complicit in the constant generation of hatred against Jews, hatred that in turn continue to fuel the tribal survival.
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hyperbola1 year, 9 months ago
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Kovel demands nothing short of soul searching on behalf of Jews of that surplus which is left of their Jewishness once tribal tendencies have been overcome. No doubt that many Jews in the world will try to talk down this pearl of humanistic account. The tribe can not sustain self criticism. The hatred to the tribe to all others is projected onto those who criticise it from within â;; being dubbed Self Hating Jews.
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hyperbola1 year, 9 months ago
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..The book is written in such a spirit intending to start the ball rolling towards a peaceful revolution that will replace the Jewish state with a single state which will enshrine equality and liberty of all its citizens as its main goal. A state that will not cause our ethical reflection drop dead upon hearing the word 'Holocaust'. We must start not only to utter but to shout with conviction, as humans, that Israel has no moral right to preserve the premise of its statehood that has been inflicting so much misery. Kovel demonstrates just how urgent it is to generate new thinking about the idle and disastrous chatter 'two states solution' of and the 'peace process' which is based on it.
Oren Ben-Dor was born in Haifa and grew up in Nahariya, Israel.
http://www.propeller.com/viewstory/2008/01/21/o...
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hyperbola1 year, 9 months ago
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Well i have pointed out the flaw in your argument before Walden, but let me do it again. Your argument is equivalent to:
if once upon a time, somewhere there was a murderer, then i am entitled to kill anyone i like for my own pleasure and/or profit.
Sorry Walden, but zionist crimes against humanity cannot be excused by blaming others.
Especially when much of the "blame" is shared - one might even say the arabs have learned the tactics from the zionists.
Israeli Textbooks and Children's Literature Promote Racism and Hatred Toward Palestinians and Arabs
.. Professor Daniel Bar-Tal of Tel Aviv University studied 124 elementary, middle- and high school textbooks on grammar and Hebrew literature, history, geography and citizenship....
http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/099...
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hyperbola1 year, 9 months ago
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As usual zionists out in force trying to use America to support zionist crimes against humanity. Zionist israel is every bit engaged in "master race" thinking as Hitler's Germany. Gaza and the West Bank is not so different from the Warsaw Ghetto and is motivated by the same 19th century east european racism, colonialism and totalitarianism that gave us both Hitler and Stalin. Real jews should put an end to zionism.
The Ethnic Cleansing Goes On
Do No Evil â;; It's not about a clash between Jews and Palestinians. It's matter of colonialism. Today there are opinion movements of young Jews, in Europe and in the US, who point the finger at Israel's colonialist policies and accuse it as a colonialist and racist state, not because it is a state founded by Jews."
http://www.propeller.com/viewstory/2008/01/21/t...
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Endoscopy1 year, 9 months ago
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Daylight and hyperbole are a matched pair. They promote hatred and killing by the Muslims as a just way to treat the Jew. The comments are sick and disgusting. I can understand Daylight after doing research on Islam. Hyperbola must be a affiliated with Nazi/KKK groups or something similar. He spouts their hateful rhetoric.
The facts of the horrible atrocities that are committed against Israel are just thought of as justice. Anything to counter these attacks is ranted against with hatred. That demonstrates their obvious hatred of Jews.
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cherev1 year, 9 months ago
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Thinker221 year, 9 months ago
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> Just as I would not scoop up a pile of dog excrement on the sidewalk with my bare hands, so too do I refrain from associating with these two.
Unfortunately, I have to disagree with you. Just as "these two" are willing to force Israel and the Jews from Palestine you're calling for forcing the Arabs out of Palestine.
It's not a question of your willingness to be associated with "these two", it's your views and statements that make such association possible.
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hyperbola1 year, 9 months ago
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Sorry endo, but unlike you I take pride in being a 14th generation american and supporting the fundamental principles of american democracy. Things like this:
"""We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."""
See anything in there that gives zionists the right to ethnic cleanse the majority christian and moslem population of palestine (even today jews are only 35% of the population of palestine)?
Sorry endo, but your anti-americanism in favor of religious fascism is more than evident.
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