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Posted by: DropkickaLib 1 year, 7 months ago

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DropkickaLib1 year, 7 months ago

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I have a problem with it's race-based doctrine. I can't accept the concept of Black Revolutionary Theology as advocated by Rev. Wright. Jim Jones' People's Temple did a great deal to help its community also, before it morphed into a cult and well...we know how that ended. Jones used conflict between the races as a means to gather African-Americans to his church. Why not call someone out for doing the same thing again?

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  Beau78901 year, 7 months ago
  
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  There are several reasons not to be concerned about Rev. Wright, and particularly not to compare his church with Jim Jones'. And even more reasons not to be concerned with what a candidate who attends the Trinity United Church of Christ *might* do if elected.
  Jim Jones was far less conventional in his teachings, as well as in his church's acts, than Wright, and Jones didn't hand over his leadership position to someone else, as Wright did. (He is no longer the pastor at the TUCC).
  The United Church of Christ (with which the TUCC is affiliated) is also a much larger national organization. It's not a cult--it doesn't separate its members from their personal attachments to brainwash them, as, say, the Peoples' Church or the Scientologists do.
  
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    Beau78901 year, 7 months ago
    
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    And mainly because the TUCC doesn't actually do any of the things those who fear what you call its "race-based doctrine" are worried about. The story is calculated to spread fear of "the other"--in other words, race-based fear--among those who don't come in contact with the TUCC or its members, by making their philosophy and actions appear far from the mainstream. In fact, the TUCC is very popular. The TUCC "does no evil."
    
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      DropkickaLib1 year, 7 months ago
      
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      If a denomination permits a pastor to spout such poisonous rhetoric from the pulpit, it de facto endorses him. If the denomination disagreed with Rev. Wright, it should have expelled him. What do you mean he doesn't come in contact with its members? He was preaching the sermons and they were listening.
      
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        DropkickaLib1 year, 7 months ago
        
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        Feel free but his views do nothing to excuse Rev. Wright's form of racism and the fact that Obama has tacitly endorsed these views through two decades of church attendance.
        
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        DropkickaLib1 year, 7 months ago
        
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        I didn't but nice try changing the subject. If you have any specific comments you would like to address, I invited you to do so.
        
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        Beau78901 year, 7 months ago
        
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        I don't condone Obama's ignoring Wright's comments for all that time, IF he was aware of them. But I wouldn't call silence a tacit endorsement--he had no power to expel Rev. Wright from his own church.
        And I'd add that extremely few people agree with absolutely every utterance of the leader of any large organization that deals with as many varied topics as a church--one must balance the good that the organization does against the bad. In this case, I'd say the church has much more beneficent effects for its congregation and community than a few wrong-headed remarks by its former leader cause harm. it's like the way Catholics weight the acts of Catholic Charities against many of the statements of its leaders, the various supposedly "infallible" popes, over the many years of the Catholic Church's existence.
        
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        GHOSTWHOWALKS1 year, 7 months ago
        
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        While he may not have had the power to do anything about the preaching of Wright, he did have to power to get up and leave instead of just sitting there and doing nothing. To apologize no is to little too late. The time to do something was then, not now.
        I can remember just such an incident. When my family heard the sermon they stood (two full pews) and walked out. Btw. We were not the only ones. Everyone has the right to speak, but that does not mean I have to sit and listen.
        
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        DropkickaLib1 year, 7 months ago
        
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        That put it nicely.
        
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        ybdogsct1 year, 7 months ago
        
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        GHOST:
        "he did have to power to get up and leave instead of just sitting there and doing nothing."
        I don't think there's any documentation proving Obama sat passively during one of these particular sermons. Why would ANYONE think Obama is racist against white America when OBAMA IS HALF-WHITE HIMSELF and was raised by his WHITE MOTHER when his black father left his own family!
        No, Obama is only associated with Wright because they share one common goal of serving the underpriveleged, the poor, and the underrepresented minority.
        http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily...
        "The only relevant question is: are Obama's beliefs represented by the handful of video clips of the most incendiary of Wright's sermons? I can find no evidence that he is. Give me a speech or a sentence or an off-hand remark in the last twenty years in which Obama has said such a thing or reflected such a worldview and I will gladly post it."
        
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        amazed1 year, 7 months ago
        
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        and the most virulent anti-Italians I know are those who are half-Italian. Some of the biggest misogynists I have ever met were women. What's your point? You never heard of self-loathing?
        
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        ybdogsct1 year, 7 months ago
        
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        AMAZED:
        "and the most virulent anti-Italians I know are those who are half-Italian."
        How could I have ever forgotten about the plight of the Italians? I must have missed the day in history class that covered the centuries-long systemic slavery of Italians.
        AMAZED:
        "You never heard of self-loathing?"
        Do you have ANY proof that Obama self-loathes his white half? Do you have ANY proof that Obama loathes his white mother, who took care of him after his black father abandoned his family? Do you have ANY proof that Obama, who attended the predominantly white Columbia and Harvard Universities, is racist against whites?
        Why don't you post YOUR PROOF that Obama suffers from self-loathing? Why don't you post a SINGLE STATEMENT Obama made that can be remotely characterized as racist against whites. Go ahead. I'll wait, although something tells me I shouldn't hold my breath.
        
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        amazed1 year, 7 months ago
        
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        Where did I say that Obama is self-loathing? The point I was attempting to make is that just because one is a member of a particular group does not guarantee that they bear no ill will or prejudice toward that group.
        I'm sorry if the subtleness of my post confused you.
        
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        ybdogsct1 year, 7 months ago
        
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        AMAZED:
        "Where did I say that Obama is self-loathing?"
        Are you really going to make me quote yourself to you? AMAZED: "You never heard of self-loathing?" You were NOT talking about Wright, because Wright is black. You were CLEARLY referring to Obama's supposed self-hatred of whites.
        AMAZED:
        "The point I was attempting to make is that just because one is a member of a particular group does not guarantee that they bear no ill will or prejudice toward that group."
        Oh is that the argument you were trying to make? Based on WHAT EVIDENCE?
        I'm sorry if you're too lazy or too obtuse to dig up ANY evidence supporting your unsubstantiated charge of self-hatred. Apparently, facts are not your forte.
        It sounds like you confused yourself. LOL.
        
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        ybdogsct1 year, 7 months ago
        
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        You pathetic neocons have stooped to circuitously arguing that Obama should somehow be responsible for the words and actions of everyone he happens to know.
        Your false outrage is even more laughable when you consider the neocon silence when bigoted Christian conservatives endorse Republican candidates. Where was your outrage when:
        1) Pat Robertson, who regularly spouts homophobic diatribes, endorsed Giuliani.
        2) Jerry Falwell, who called 9/11 an act of divine punishment on homosexuals, endorsed Huckabee.
        3) Ann Coulter, whose regular homophobic, bigoted, and antisemitic comments have made her a CELEBRITY on Fox News, defends and endorses Bush.
        4) George Allen called Indian journalist S.R. Sidarth "macaca."
        5) Mitt Romney and Tony Snow uttered the racially-charged term "tar baby."
        6) Bob Jones III, who banned interracial dating at his school and calls Catholicism a "cult," endorsed Romney.
        Spare me your hypocritical false outrage.
        Pathetic
        
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        ybdogsct1 year, 7 months ago
        
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        http://voices.kansascity.com/node/729
        "Rev. Wright has not said anything that has not been said or is not being said in bars, poolrooms, barber shops, hair salons or anywhere else more than three black people gather.
        Rev. Wright is not the first black minister to condemn this country for its racist practices. The Rev. Martin Luther King called out America for what it did and was doing to people of color all over the world (slavery, discrimination, the Vietnam War). He did it in a more sophiscated way, but his message was the same. But Rev. King did not call for black people to burn the flag, to destroy property, to kill white people or to leave the country. And, as far as I can determine, NEITHER HAS REV. WRIGHT.
        Rev. Wright is not leading nor advocating a revolution. He is just venting, and in many ways, preaching to the choir. Shouldn't a man or woman be judged more by his or her actions?"
        (cont.)
        
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        tkyrchncs1 year, 7 months ago
        
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        It is my understanding that when a man of the cloth in full regalia standing at his pulpit on a religious occasion says "God damn" something (in this case America), it is not just an expletive one might say on mashing his finger. It is calling down the Wrath of God. An appeal for a manifestation of God's condemnation. His right to speak, my right to speak against, and believe me, I do. Had I been there I would have spoken to his face before I walked out.
        
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        DropkickaLib1 year, 7 months ago
        
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        That sermon was inappropriate by any reasonable standards and based on wild assertions on Wright's part.
        
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        tkyrchncs1 year, 7 months ago
        
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        I certainly would have. I have before in another church, and once at a political rally. Christ calls on us to LOVE and BLESS those who do us wrong, and that is precisely what I would have said. I have made no comments on any other content of this speech or the other activities of this preacher, but he is a successful man living in a more than middle-class house (they showed it on tv) condemning the COUNTRY, not just some of the citizens, because he perceives himself as being treated poorly. For shame. Racist behavior is specifically forbidden by law and regulation in almost every context in America. That was not the case when I went to a "separate but equal" elementary school from my friend and neighbor. How can he claim that there is no progress? People are NOT going to change by lightening strike just to make him happy, especially with a mouth like his.
        
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        tkyrchncs1 year, 7 months ago
        
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        I have been involved in the civil rights movement nearly as long as he has, and undoubtedly for similar reasons. But for the same reason I find it wrong to exclude and oppress someone because of race or other factors not in his control, I find it wrong to condemn a whole nation for what some of its citizens do. Being black does not excuse discriminatory behavior or rhetoric. And I reserve the right to call down my Christian brothers for un-Christ-like behavior, just as he does.
        
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        lovemylibs1 year, 7 months ago
        
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        WOW, WMMR. You are starting to sound like a propagandist AND an apologist.
        
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        ybdogsct1 year, 7 months ago
        
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        http://voices.kansascity.com/node/729
        "Sen. Obama has done nothing to indicate
        he is anti-American. In fact, his whole life is a testament to the American Dream.
        And if Sen. Obama were to totally distance himself from every black person over the age of 30 who has at one time or another said or thought God damn America, he probably could hold his next campaign rally in a phone booth.
        If you don't like Obama, fine. If you don't like his policies, fine. But let's not waste any more time over a made-up issue."
        
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        AnteUp1 year, 7 months ago
        
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        OnionHead ~
        Heck - those guys are mainstream pastors. They address
        AIPAC and appear WITH their candidates. No one seems
        ashamed of their pronouncements. They call for bombs
        to rain down on Iran - they call other religions a
        "wh*re" - natural disasters are Divine punishment for
        homosexuals............what's the problem - eh?
        My problem is - their support has been COURTED.
        Some candidates have WANTED to appear with them.
        Those candidates didn't just attend services at
        their church - NO - they wanted their endorsement.
        Obama has already disassociated himself with those
        remarks currently being shown of Wright - Can the same
        be said for the other guys? Surely not - they have
        been too busy kissing their butts.
        
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        Beau78901 year, 7 months ago
        
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        I didn't say Wright didn't come in contact with his church's members.
        I said the story about Obama's association with the Rev. Wright is calculated to spread race-based fear among those who don't have any knowledge about the TUCC or its members.
        You have a point about the denomination's implicit tolerance of Wright's inflammatory remarks. But there is still no evidence tht Obama has some sort of secret agenda for the country that is based on Wright's beliefs or comments. Obama is not one of those politicians who takes orders from his pastor, or anyone else.
        
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        DropkickaLib1 year, 7 months ago
        
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        I don't want to imply that Obama fully subscribes to Wright's views, but it disturbs me to hear what his pastor of two decades has said from the pulpit.
        
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        Beau78901 year, 7 months ago
        
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        Here's why I gave you a negative vote, Scrimshaw.
        1) Calling a name is pointless, and that particular one doesn't really make sense in your context; there's no commonality between Wright, who spoke possibly offensive words, and Tyson and Simpson, who broke laws and expected to be treated differently than ordinary criminals.
        2) The n-word is a noun, not an adjective.
        
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        Beau78901 year, 7 months ago
        
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        Obama's speech was excellent. (And of course it contained a political component--it was given in Philadelphia where the coming primary is very important.)
        AA? You don't mean Alcoholics Anonymous, do you?
        Your definition of the "n-word" isn't in the dictionary either. You can look it up here, and this site clearly defines the word as a derogatory term used for all black people for no reason other than their skin color. In other words, by their definition, it's a racist term:
        http://www.yourdictionary.com/
        Or you can look it up here, and find a slightly more forgiving take, though certainly its primary meaning is derogatory:
        http://www.merriam-webster.com
        It makes me uncomfortable to write or utter what I call the "n-word," as other people feel about swearing. My meaning was clear in context, though, dictionary definition or not.
        
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    DropkickaLib1 year, 7 months ago
    
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    Jim Jones didn't start out as a radical cult leader. My point is that he fanned the flames of racial hatred to mislead people. It was a gradual process of creating a cult but that mentality can lead to it.
    
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      Beau78901 year, 7 months ago
      
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      Again, not a cult. And actions speak louder than words. When you read about the TUCC ministry's actions, you still can't pinpoint anything that denigrates non-blacks, regardless of what rhetoric Wright may have used. And again, he's no longer the pastor--I'm not certain of the circumstances of his departure, but if you wanted the congregation to expel him, the result would be the same as it is now.
      
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        DropkickaLib1 year, 7 months ago
        
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        ...after decades of being the pastor. He should have been expelled a long, long time ago. Clearly, no one called him out on his rhetoric until recently.
        
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