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Posted by: bubba2 1 year, 7 months ago
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bubba21 year, 7 months ago
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Unemployment is 50% or more. Children are working instead of going to school because their parents (if still alive) have no jobs and their families are living in POVERTY.
Most of the internal and external refugees have NOT returned home unless they are forced out (from the current country they are in) or are broke and can't live where they have been any more.
America needs to GET OUT of Iraq. The Iraqis WANT us out, because we have screwed up their country.
Whatever they do after we leave is their business and their problem. We should never have invaded in the first place.
The next President should be "saddled" with NOTHING regarding Iraq, because the next President should get all of our troops OUT of there as soon as possible.
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djrevelky1 year, 7 months ago
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Bubba2,
Everything you say is correct. The situation in Iraq is worse than it was under Saddam.
However, your lack of reasoning...for such a thought out response is troubling. If all of these problems are happening with the US military THERE then what will happen to the people of Iraq when we leave?
The anti-crowd constantly talks about the plight of the Iraqi people; they say that the US military invasion had no foresight or regard for the wellfare of the Iraqi people. That might be true. But those who argue for a withdrawal are doing the exact same thing they accuse Bush of doing. Bush started a hasty invasion without regard for the consequences and the anti-war group wants to make a hasty withdrawal without regard for the consequences.
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bubba21 year, 7 months ago
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IF the current administration could actually DO something about the mess they made, and they SHOWED it, I might not be so adamant about totally pulling out.
But, as you agreed, the situation gets WORSE every day, NOT better.
The Iraqis WANT us OUT. The latest published poll indicates over 70% of Iraqis want the U.S. to leave.
The Iraqis need to take care of their own country.
You say that pulling out now is the same as the hasty invasion?
You DO see what goes on while we continue to stay?
There is NO evidence that the violence and/or the situation in that country would get worse if we left. The administration says that, but seeing as they have lied about everything regarding Iraq, why would you believe them on that point?
Since most Iraqis want us OUT, the odds are that the situation will actually get better because the occupiers will be GONE.
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djrevelky1 year, 7 months ago
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The evidence that suggest that the violence in that country would get worse if we leave is called common sense.
As you said yourself, it is a civil war. We all know that the US military propping up the government. When you remove the prop, a government falls. When the government falls, the civil war gets worse.
What would have happened in the Balkans with the declaration of the independence of Kosovo if UN troops had not been there?
The war for control in the middle east between Shia and Sunni Islam has been going on for over 1,000 years...removing the US presence will not end that war automatically.
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bubba21 year, 7 months ago
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That's right ... the war between those factions has been going on and on, and WE will NOT stop it.
Being IN Iraq is not stopping that conflict - in fact, we exacerbated it!!
If you believe in what the Bible says, those people will fight each other until the end of time. WHY should we stay in the MIDDLE of it? WHAT good is that DOING? None!
Comparing the Balkan / U.N situation is NOT the same thing.
The U.S. MADE the mess in Iraq, but we continue to make the mess WORSE by STAYING.
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joeblowe1 year, 7 months ago
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wtagg1 year, 7 months ago
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Why are we allowing those that made all the mistakes to continue to make mistakes? If it is worse than it was under Saddam, what evidence do you have that it will get better, especially under the direction of those that created the problem. In project management, you do not continue a project for 5 years and $500,000,000,000 that has returned nothing back except a badly damaged economy, 4000 dead heroes, tens of thousands of causulties, tens of thousands of dead Iraqi civilians, and no oil to boot.
We should have taken the $500,000,000,000 and put it toward research and development of energy sources to replace oil. We are funding those that fight us. That is stupid (or incredibly brilliant strategy from the oil industry, depending on the point of view).
We do not seem to learn from our choices in the past.
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fourthtunz1 year, 7 months ago
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djrev,
The lack of reasoning you mention also extends to the premise that our country should be nation building instead of leaving jobs like that to the un.
The loud voices that say that we should stay due the repercussions on iraq, well what about the repercussion of staying, to our own country?
There is a middle ground, let the UN and Iraq forces take over, we are in deep financial trouble in the US.
10-20% of our population are benefiting from this war, unfortunately they are the loudest and wealthiest.
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djrevelky1 year, 7 months ago
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I don't think we should be nation building...but I also believe that when you break something you try to fix it.
We broke Iraq, I think it is our duty to try to fix it.
Yes, the world hates us for the war, yes the Iraqi people hate us for it...and they will hate us all the more so if we leave and allow chaos to take control.
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Jaydee401 year, 7 months ago
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Your position that if you broke it you should fix it is admirable but you must realize you have neither the tools or the skill to do so, it's like using a chainsaw for minor surgery. Before you fix a country halfway around the world should you not fix your own?
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dissent1 year, 7 months ago
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the biggest part of fixing it is to just get out of the way. as bubba said, we make it worse. but this supposed stance of "responsibility" is a dishonest and ingenuine argument anyway used as an excuse to stay because that's what this administration, both parties, the military and the corporations really want. everybody on this planet knows that our plan is to keep it. our thinking as a nation is that sure we broke it. that means we bought it and if we bought it that means we own it, so if we own it it's gonna be ours any which way. what's really stupid about this thinking is that it's like we burnt the house to claim the insurance only to find we were under insured or not insured at all. it's like sitting and hemorrhaging at the wheel after the car crash trying to look at the bright side
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mesodude1 year, 7 months ago
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"If all of these problems are happening with the US military THERE then what will happen to the people of Iraq when we leave?"
--I think it partly depends on which definition of "leave" you're using, djrevelky. The pro-crowd is tediously fond of projecting black and white exit scenarios in which, for example, US troops wave a white flag, hand over their weapons to the people of Iraq and depart the country overnight in a huff. Those on the right love to cast Democrats in the role of Dr. Suess' as if they will be like the Grinch stripping Whoville of every last vestige of Christmas. Who, other than cons, has even ONCE suggested such a ridiculously irresponsible approach to winding down the war in Iraq?
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dissent1 year, 7 months ago
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there's nothing in the history books that makes withdrawal look encouraging unless it happens in peace time like say, when the english left hong kong in 1997. every other time when an occupier doesn't really want to leave and is trying to make it look like they're the good guys it's been a mess. the worst case scenario is when there's a war. this is the worst case scenario and probably the worst of those at that. and as long as we are there there will always be war. so there is no clean way out, do it fast, do it slow, it's going to be ugly and it's going to be a disgrace. but it has to be done. that's what i call responsibility. doing what's best for everyone, not just what makes us look good. you can't fix the problem when you are the problem.
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mesodude1 year, 7 months ago
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You make a lot of great points. I agree this whole thing is one big hideous train wreck. My fantasy picture of withdrawal would have us redeploying after we reconciled with all of the allies we p!ssed off over the last 6 years figuring out a way to share duties and responsibilities in Afghanistan and/or Iraq. Unfortunately, I don't think the PIC realize that rhetoric like "cut and run" and "surrender" doesn't exactly endear us to those from whom we want help.
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