Comments for Girl Dies From Diabetes After Parents Pray for Healing »
Posted By Neophile 1 year, 8 months ago in StyleAn 11-year-old girl died after her parents prayed for healing rather than seek medical help for a treatable form of diabetes, police said Tuesday.
Read Full Story at wcco.com »
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walden31 year, 8 months ago
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Jeesh, where to begin. I feel bad for the parents because they didn't mean harm. That being said, they should be charged with child abuse resulting in death. The poor little girl must have suffered a horrible death. The other two kids should also be removed from the house until the parents are able to demonstrate that they are capable of exercising better judgment. It's fine to believe what you want, but your religious rights end at someone's else's health.
We had a case like this in Massachusetts a few years ago where some "cult" members starved a little boy to death.
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JackofallChems1 year, 8 months ago
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well, actually...it wouldn't be the first time that someone paid lip service to a religion or deity while deliberately committing a crime...I grew up in a non-Catholic religious school, and saw less severe forms of such depravity on a regular basis without the camoflauge of 'tradition'...is a flagrant criminal actually deserving of less hostility than a cold and dishonest one?
of course, the parents could just be religious-reading-impared dummies that can't figure out when they're being swindled into phony religious beliefs because some twit in charge wants to hear himself talk or have a new excuse to bilk money out of suckers. (selling of indulgences, anyone?)
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libsRfunnyComment removed: Hard Banned2 Replies
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slate1 year, 8 months ago
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mesodude1 year, 8 months ago
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"Prayer isn't supposed to replace medical attention."
--But sadly that (or desperate hospital emergency room visits) is the approach Bush and the GOP Congress want the 10 million innocent uninsured American children (from whom they have fought ferociously to deny health insurance) to take when they need treatment for their cancers, decayed teeth, and broken bones. I guess it's just too bad our kids weren't born in Iraq. Sure, they'd live in fear of being bombed by us daily but at least we're funneling enough money into the infrastructure there (while our bridges and levees disintegrate right out from under us) such that Iraqi children can receive decent healthcare. God DAMN the Republican Party. ;-(
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mesodude1 year, 8 months ago
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Welcome to today's episode of The Weak & the Illiterate. Poorly educated conjob: I didn't state that this was Bush's fault. Where specifically do you READ where I claimed this particular incident was Bush's fault? Exactly. NOWHERE. I merely pointed out the fact that Republicans are willing to allow millions of children to go without health insurance and possibly suffer life-threatening illnesses and die. Now, please log off of Propeller IMMEDIATELY and do not return here to post again until you've taken a remedial course in reading comprehension. Thank you, kindly.
PS This time 2 years ago, chickenhawk wingers like you were flapping your gums nonstop and warning us that America would never put blacks,homos and a certain "San Francisco liberal" in charge of Congress. Your tiny little con crystal balls are shriveled up. Stop making predictions you can't back up. And have a nice day. ;-)
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cloud151 year, 8 months ago
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meso the fact that you just brough Bush into this conversation speaks volumes.
Poor girl, people have to learn that science and religion can co-exist and there is nothing in the bible against medical treatment. You can bet a million bucks that if the pope was sick he'd seek medical assistance, not a cure from God.
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mesodude1 year, 8 months ago
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"meso the fact that you just brough Bush into this conversation speaks volumes."
--Well, no...Actually, what "speaks volumes" I think, is the fact that *you* and the Bushwipe above chose to zero in on that one aspect of my post and then you proceeded to lecture me on a point I never even tried to make. Where do I suggest that science and religion can't co-exist? Really, WHERE do you deduce that from what I wrote?
I never said the girl died because she didn't have insurance because I don't know if that was the case or not. However, given that Bush and the GOP (aka the "family values" party) have fought to deny health insurance to millions of children (essentially putting them in the same situation as this girl who DIED because her parents chose not to get her medical treatment) bringing up Bush and the GOP in the context of this story is perfectly reasonable. I'm sorry if you choose not to look beneath the surface.
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mesodude1 year, 7 months ago
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And still *more* con cluelessness. Are you freaking serious?! Medicaid isn't and never was "always available" to anyone (not even to all poor people) so why are you even mentioning Medicaid ( as if anyone can simply walk in off the street and get approved) when you know millions of children come from families with household incomes too high to qualify?
And why do you freaks keep pretending you don't know anyone who has been denied Social Security disability benefits or that you don't hear the stories of Iraq occupation vets returning home with PTSD and/or missing limbs being forced to jump through hoops to collect disability? You wingjobs know the GOP sweats every penny going into social programs . I can see right through you so don't even try to yank my chain. You cannot be serious...
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DropkickaLib1 year, 7 months ago
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Wrong again clueless Lib. I am well-aware of the availability of Medicaid and its spend down requirements. You are the freak mesodumb. Got any data on Iraq vets or are you just inventing anecdotal evidence to make a lame political point?
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mesodude1 year, 8 months ago
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According to a FOX News story (so read this with a grain of salt) "The girl's father, Dale Neumann, a former police officer, said he has friends who are doctors. He started CPR "as soon as the breath of life left" his daughter's body, he said."
--Here is the part I don't get (and which I also think a jury might find problematic). If you truly believe in the faith of God, why wait until your daughter is on the brink of death to suddenly decide that the Deity is... I don't know--maybe otherwise occupied and that *this* is the point where human intervention is needed? As judgemental as that question sounds, I really do not understand how it's possible to switch back and forth like that. Her father was once a freakin' COP! Come on...
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,341869,00.html
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DropkickaLib1 year, 8 months ago
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Considering the times that my wife and I have taken our 2-year-old to the emergency room or the doctor's office, as well as having surgery on dogs and cats, I can't agree with the parent's actions. God can help your kid while you see a doctor.
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Spadecaller1 year, 8 months ago
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Oh boy! I sometimes wonder if people should need to get licenses to reproduce. When religious belief is used to deny the need of responsible health care, it becomes more of a threat to those we love than a source of comfort and protection. What a shame. Such ignorance!
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toph19731 year, 8 months ago
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More proof that prayer does not work whatsoever.
You bring up a good point. It begs to ask should childbearing be a right? We have to have licenses for everything. Except the thing that requires the most responsibility. If the majority of people are not responsible enough to handle their automobiles, how can they be responsible enough to have a child?
If you have to get a license to get married you should definitely have to have one to have a child.
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Nixie1 year, 8 months ago
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That is not proof that prayer does not work. It is proof that, for whatver reason, the answer was no. She is not suffering now, she is, if her parents are corect, in a better place. We are not privvy to God's plans, we do not know why or when he intercedes in answer to our prayers, and we do not know why the answer is sometimes no, even when it's something we think should be an easy yes.
But, I think these parents were wrong. Faith should make you grateful that the Lord has provided resources capable of preserving life, not make you refuse them. Very sad that these people did not trust God to provide doctors and treatment to save her.
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lvrofwolves1 year, 8 months ago
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like the story-There was once a man trapped on his roof by rising flood waters.After a while,someone came floating by on a raft and said,"Come, and I will take you to safety." The man replied,"No, thank you. I have prayed to God, and He will save me." Later, after the water had risen higher, someone came by in a boat and said, "Come into my boat, and I will take you to a safe place before the water overtakes you." Again the man replied, "No, for I have prayed earnestly to God. He will surely save me." Finally, with the water having risen up to the man's neck, someone in a helicopter came by and said, "Hurry, and come aboard lest you drown!" And again, the man refused saying, "I have no need of your help. I have great faith that God will save me." Soon the man drowned. cont-
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lvrofwolves1 year, 8 months ago
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Right before this story came out, someone wrote to our local newspaper (it's a page where anyone can anonymously voice opinons) said : If you are a true Christian, God will provide you with everything you need.'
That was in reply to an elderly disabled couple who had unexpected bills and could not afford any food, and asked for help from the community.
Now maybe prayer can feel like support, comfort as a suppliment to REAL support from others, be it food, medical, housing etc...
If those parents wanted to believe that for themselves, so be it, but when you are responsible for anothers life, that is neglect and regardless of their religious views, I hope they are charged with negligent homicide.
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AntiNeoCon1 year, 8 months ago
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Prayer is good, but God also gave us a brain that we are supposed to use. When you need medical attention, you go to the doctor or emergency room.
Now Ricky will probably tell ya to contact Budda or Darwin....but they are dead. j/k Ricky. Hang in there...
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BronxBomber1 year, 8 months ago
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"And now she is in heaven..." Ricky, are you displaying real sympathy or are you just being sardonic in this tragedy? I mean knowing you're track record on folks who are reliant on theology, and Walden? I simply don't get you're statement that "They didn't mean harm" Are you also kidding? Maybe subconciously they wanted to get rid of they're little girl, and are hiding under this veiled act of religious benevolence to mask they're malicious intent. For an unknown reason. They didn't serve NO religious order or any denomination whatsoever. I guess they didn't have the good sense that "God" gave a goldfish. I have zip-zero sympathy for them whatsoever, they knew just as everybody knows that there are conventional alternatives to medicine, and that they should've used those measures to help they're daughter, but they insentiently CHOSE NOT to.
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BronxBomber1 year, 8 months ago
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Are we? Let's say for argument's sake; a parent crashes his car into a tree, manages to get out with just minor scratches, but his child recieves more extensive damages to the body, suffers internal injuries,excessive external bleeding in some places, has shallow breathing, broken bones, and is in dire need of medical aid, but the parent decides that prayer & prayer alone will salvage the health of that child instead of calling for an ambulance....the child dies.
Is that parent then condigned to a free "get out of jail" card?
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grungeplunge1 year, 8 months ago
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Yes, they very probably didn't mean harm and it must be awful for them as well - but this is what comes off uncritically claiming to "knowing the truth" within whichever context, and that isn't restricted to religion alone. Where beliefs escalate to a mere upmanship of "I know more than you do" and someone gets hurt or even killed in the process, it becomes unpardonable.
So yes, too: If this kind of thing goes unpunished, society and its organizational incarnation, the state, will arguably lose all justifiability in terms of their own raison d'etre.
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Beau78901 year, 8 months ago
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Interesting that you should say that about "knowing the truth" within whichever context. An argument could be made about medicine working the same way. (I know, I know, the practice of medicine is based on experimentation and usually works as intended. And anyone who sees my comments out here knows I'd never make the same choice myself that these parents made--certainly not based on "faith."
Interesting that you should say that about "knowing the truth" within whichever context. An argument could be made about medicine working the same way. (I know, I know, the practice of medicine is based on experimentation and usually works as intended. And anyone who sees my comments out here knows I'd never make the same choice myself that these parents made--certainly not based on "faith."
That said, occasionally medicine also has unintended consequences and does more harm than good. And sometimes the ill actually do get better without medical care.
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Beau78901 year, 8 months ago
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If we as a society believe parents should have the right to raise their children according to their beliefs, then these parents, Christian Scientists, or others who believe in faith healing should be allowed to make their own mistakes, even in raising children.After all, children are entirely the parents' responsibility to take care of by law, but they're not taught how. If they're sincere in their religious beliefs, they're using their best judgment.
This isn't a point I would usually argue, but how far do we want to allow the government to control our private lives and how we raise our children?
Most consider withholding medical treatment unacceptable. Some consider exposing their children to second-hand smoke should be punishable by law. Child car seats are a good idea, but they're required in many (if not all) states. How about what you feed your kids? Certainly diet has a significant effect on health--why not regulate that as well?
Where do you stop?
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Tangent0011 year, 8 months ago
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There is no well-defined line regarding just how far the state can go in infringing on the rights of parents in order to protect a child. This case is obviously one where the state would have been justified in intervening, since the mortal danger to the child was both clear and immediate. As to second-hand smoke and child safety seats, I'd say the latter is more demonstrably lethal and immediate than the former.
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tehranchik1 year, 8 months ago
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The black and white of it is---something as simple as an insulin shot would have saved her life.
The mother still thinks she can be resurrected?
It's one thing to do what you want with your own life but quite another when you are responsible for another's life.
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Tangent0011 year, 8 months ago
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There has been discussion of having to get a 'license' to procreate, since the state makes adoptive parents subjects of such intense scrutiny. A parenting license is a bit too fascist for my taste, however a tax credit for passing a comprehensive parenting class for first-time parents would seem to make sense.
Thoughts?
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joeblowe1 year, 8 months ago
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And the TRULY disgusting thing: those f'ing idiot people are probably SATISFIED with the outcome; "it's God's will that she be taken to heaven now." or some such bul!sh!t. It's unfortunate that someone who knew about this didn't get a judge to intervene.
And another irony: These are probably the SAME freaking idiots that would carry a picket sign all day in front of an abortion clinic.
And a question: If they took the girl to a doctor for immunizations, why not for life saving medical treatment? Did they simply get more and more mentally ill as the girl got older?
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slate1 year, 8 months ago
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Ya forgot Mass, NY and Ca ya ^&#*@(@*$&%^%!!! Ya hate Jews and Arabs? I bet you think you aren't racist either do ya?
Ya hate the south! LOL cool stay up in them thar woods yer shck is in.
With an IQ and mind set like you have Far Left,,,, you aren't one to talk about being inbred, just ask your Unclegrandmaw, it'll set ya straight about your family tree with no branches, Just a knarly ole trunck,,,, yeeeehaaawww!
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slate1 year, 7 months ago
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Gawd Mid,,,, too bad your Mom didn't follow that back wood birth control you hicks like so much and kick the bucket out from underneath your dad's feet (that bucket method only works with a good swift kick) but dang that gene pool had to keep marching on with you ,,,,,
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DeadXXXManXXXTalkin1 year, 8 months ago
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''Its a tribal disease, and inbred idiots are expecially susceptible. Witness the entire middle east, and the inbred Arabs and Jews, not to mention southern Ohio,''
the 'entire middle east' is 'inbred idiots'?
what about parts of Africa? they are also heavily religious, mostly muslim?
how come Africa gets a pass?
you're lucky I'm from NORTHERN Ohio, or I'd have to yell at you.
and four people gave this bigoted anti-semitic statement positives?
Its even bigoted in the context of religion-hating, pointing out specific regions and thereby religious persuasions
religion is inbreeding?
you could have at least said 'intellectual' inbreeding.
lame
and I guess I did yell at you, N ohio dweller or not
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cowboygrandpa1 year, 8 months ago
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Yes she is. Where she no longer suffers from any ailment. Or stupid parents.
I truly believe in God, Christ and the Holy Spirit.
But when my children were sick or injured I not only prayed, I took them to doctors. Who had medical training and knowledge. I had faith that God would help my child with the knowledge he had given that doctor.
Someone needs to inform these parents that while prayer is called for so is action. When my grandson got hit by a car we prayed. We prayed when he was on the helicopter on the way to the hospital. We prayed when we were on our way to the hospital and we prayed and gave thanks when he was alright.
But we let the professionals look at him to make sure.
I wonder if these same people pray the coffee and food they need to prepare are done everyday? Or if they actually do what is needed and give thanks for being able to.
They need some serious help. With understanding a lot of things.
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cowboygrandpa1 year, 8 months ago
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midleft:
There have been doctors who have no answers for how a patient was healed from some deadly disease. They have attributed it to prayer. Whether you choose to believe it is your choice.
Prayer is not always answered with positive as n2n stated.
There are prayers that are answered with a yes and those that are answered with a no.
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cowboygrandpa1 year, 8 months ago
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I'll give you one quick example.
When my grandson was hit by a car doing 35 MPH. He shattered the windshield bounced off the car and landed on his feet 10 feet from the car. He walked over and asked a lady to call 911 then fell out. When the paramedics arrived the blood pressure was low and falling, he also had chalky white skin a sign of shock but also a sign of internal bleeding.
They calld in Life Flight and flew him to Loma Linda hospital. When the doctors saw him they were amazed. They did all their checks and xrays and found only bumps and bruises. The doctor told me he had just treated a girl wo git hit by a car going 15MPH and she died.
When I told him we were praying this doctor told me that he could not give me a logical reason for my grandson not have a broken back or ribs as well as internal bleeding.
Now you are all welcome to believe as you please. But I know God wrapped his mighty and protective hand around my grandson that day. I know it!
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not2needy1 year, 8 months ago
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Endoscopy1 year, 8 months ago
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lvrofwolves1 year, 8 months ago
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midleft-no reason in the world to call people idiots or inbreds because of their beliefs, except for your own hate filled mind. Religion and prayer has helped many people, being Agnostic I cannot say because there was any 'God' who answered their prayers, but because in a way those people might have helped themselves because they believed. It is 'self help' some people find their belief a great comfort, and if it helps them fantastic! it doesn't mean I believe, but I believe they believe. And in the end..who knows, they may be right! Besides harming others with any belief, why do you care what someone believes in? would you call a child who believes in Santa a moron? an inbred idiot?
I won't devalue someones prayer belief just as I wouldn't want someone to devalue my belief in luck, hope etc...
but it has to remain personal, you cannot harm other as these parents harmed their child by not providing her with medical attention. Very selfish.
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lvrofwolves1 year, 8 months ago
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midleft-I never said harm couldn't come to people who believe in 'Gods',Billions upon billions of times it has, I said a persons belief should NOT cause others harm. And if people use religion for greed, political gain, power, justification for violence,etc.. then yes that is selfish!!!!
so you are off a fence,you're off the fense, I guess that means you are a very exciting person!! LOL, right! no need to say which side you are standing on, but how about proving without a doubt that there is no God! I'm not saying there is...but well you know, just as you think you know Agnostics are boring, I have to admit people like you that are so hate filled aren't boring, not exciting either..I don't have a perfect word for people that say and believe in some of the things you do.
These people like EVERYONE else on Earth need to be responsible for their actions.
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skeptic2711 year, 8 months ago
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not2needy: Where in the Bible does it say that sometimes the answer is no? It says just the opposite, over and over again.
Matthew 7:8
For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened.
Matthew 21:22
And all things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive.
Mark 11:24
Therefore I say to you, all things for which you pray and ask, believe that you have received them, and they will be granted you.
Luke 11:10
For everyone who asks, receives; and he who seeks, finds; and to him who knocks, it will be opened.
John 16:24
Until now you have asked for nothing in My name; ask and you will receive, so that your joy may be made full.
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DeadXXXManXXXTalkin1 year, 8 months ago
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you are right, 'do unto others' is complete mythology
the older you get the less 'sure' you'll get
the 'surety of youth' indeed
*sigh*
''The bible, koran, and anything written before modern knowledge is complete mythology.''
A friend tells me that certain mathematic formulas were invented BCE. like around the time of the Buddha
A ways before 'modern knowledge'
you may want to be more careful in your writing
but doubtless you just need a little seasoning
wisdom may not come with age, but perspective usually does
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Bkumm1 year, 8 months ago
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And there you have it, ladies and gentlemen, the stupidity of religion at it's most evil.
Pray to save your child from diabetes (which of course human SCIENCE can treat) and then keep telling me we should teach intelligent design as an alternative to science in schools.
Go on, keep telling me.
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StillUnashamed1 year, 8 months ago
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Question: Have you ever known someone who has become ill with a treatable illness, go to the doctors/hospitals and died? I have.
Have you ever seen someone whom the doctors say they cannot help and that they don't have a chance to live through the night but still not only survive but recover to live a quality life? I have.
The point I'm trying to make is this: Is medical science perfect? Of course not. If the medical profession fails to heal a person and that person dies, will the family be critisized for not relying on prayer?
FOR THE RECORD: I believe in the power of prayer and the ability of the medical profession. I have a right to my belief, you have a right to yours and those parents have a right to theirs. Once their rights are taken away from them, and my rights are taken away from me, there'll be no one to keep your rights from being taken away too!
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Bkumm1 year, 8 months ago
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Sure. It happens. But, if you pray to some Big Daddy in the sky to save you when you're bleeding from a fountaining carotid artery rather than go to a doctor I think you're flat out crazy. But, that's not the point.
Your point is pointless. You can believe whatever you want, but I'll bet you any amount of money you want that if these parents were accused of beating the crap out of their child and selling him or her over the Internet in a kiddie porn ring that you'd be outraged. And rightfully so. But, if they happen to belong to the Church of Internet Kiddie Porn and Child Beating (there are sillier things) are you still going to say that it's within these parents rights to do as they wish with their children for religious beliefs? Of course you wouldn't. And rightfully so.
Don't get hung up on the issue, it's really pretty simple.
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StillUnashamed1 year, 8 months ago
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"Your point is pointless." Only to the arrogant.
Your example is downright silly and totally absurd. If it is the intention of the parents to kill or harm the child by withholding medical treatment, that would be one thing. But their intention was to bring about healing in the way they believed to have the best chance.
To expound upon my example above. My brother's son had a medically treatable condition. My brother took him to an MD who performed surgery and declared my nephew cured. A few months later, my nephew died from that condition. Is my brother to be faulted for not taking him to a BETTER doctor or to a BETTER medical facility? My brother made a wrong decision as to whom he took his son. A different doctor may have saved him. These parents made a wrong decision concerning their child and they are hurting.
Can you say with 100% surity that insulin would have saved the child's life? Maybe 99%, but not 100%.
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Tangent0011 year, 8 months ago
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Chain? Try Deuteronomy 21:18-21
"If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, 19 his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. 20 They shall say to the elders, "This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a profligate and a drunkard." 21 Then all the men of his town shall stone him to death."
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globalwarmer1 year, 8 months ago
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I think the point is, at least your brother took his child to the doctor. No one is guaranteed to be saved if they go to the doctor but you did all you could by at least seeking medical attention. If you want to pray while your loved one is being treated, fine, have at it but don't deny treatment.
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Bkumm1 year, 8 months ago
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No, your point is pointless to those who understand the difference between doing what is possible and doing what is unimaginably improbable (is that not the definition of a miracle?).
Nothing is certain. Nothing is 100%. I am 99% sure that there is no god, but I am not 100% sure, because I can not prove it. Their intention may have been good, but the road to damnation is paved with good intentions.
If the parents beat the crap out of their kid ("spare the rod and spoil the child" sound familiar?) to save the child's soul from Hell and if they thought that selling the kiddie porn pictures was somehow "cleansing" the evil from her soul, those parents would also have the best of intentions, would they not?
Your position is indefensible.
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canadianrancher571 year, 8 months ago
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I wonder if the childs parents where badly injured in an accident if they would seek medical aid or just pray to be healed. If one wishes to mess with ones own life fine but when it comes to other peoples lives especially children I wish some of these people would clue in.
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smithichie1 year, 8 months ago
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That is an excellent point, canadianrancher. I think if the parents sought any medical attention, for themselves, since they last time they provided it for their daughter, they should be facing murder charges instead of mere negligent homicide charges.
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djn3nunez31 year, 8 months ago
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Dear god,
http://www.lyricsfreak.com/x/xtc/dear god_20147941.html
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Harbeas1 year, 8 months ago
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How do these parents now that it was God's will? It could just as easily been God's will to give the little girl the medical attention she needed. If the little girl got the shot and still died, THAT would be God's will! Sterilize both parents so they can't kill anymore of their children!
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quackpot1 year, 8 months ago
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This couple takes advantage of the modern miracle of electricity (they own a coffee shop) but not the modern miracle of insulin?
As sad as this story is, it is nothing compared to what the Bush Administration is doing.
This couple killed one person with their "faith-based" approach to diabetes but Bush is killing millions with his "faith-based" approach to sexually transmitted diseases. An approach that requires that 1/3 of anti-AIDS funds be spent on this "faith-based" nonsense.
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Endoscopy1 year, 8 months ago
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There is no cure for any virus disease. There are now several STD's that can't be cured. Prevention is the ONLY method. Condoms are not safe. 1 in 15 failure per Consumer Reports. Some diseases just go right through the wall of the condom. Yet people like you say abstinence is not the answer but condoms are.
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Tangent0011 year, 8 months ago
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There is a kernel of truth in Endo's comments. There can be a condom failure rate as high as 10% among 'novice' users. Couples that are aware of proper use, storage, and disposal of condoms have a far lower failure rate.
Statistically, abstinence-only programs show a HIGHER rate of unwanted pregnancy than more comprehensive sex education programs.
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quackpot1 year, 8 months ago
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Sex education for Endoscopy:
--Some viral disease can be prevented via vaccination. The most lethal strains of Human Papilloma Virus are among these.
--The most common sexually transmitted diseases (e.g. chlamydia) are not viral and can be cured with antibiotics if recognized. If ignored they can be transmitted with unfortunate results.
--There is STRONG evidence that proper condom usage reduces the risk of transmission of STDs (New Enland Journal of Medicine 354:2645-2654).
--While abstinence is the best way of reducing the spread of STDs, the teaching of abstinence only has not been successful.
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cloud151 year, 8 months ago
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My gosh.....
Are you that obsessive over your hate of Bush that you have to say something about him every time you post? This topic has nothing to do with him or politics yet you must talk about him!
Its pathetic and sickening how some people can't forget about politics and stop pushing their agenda.
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quackpot1 year, 8 months ago
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I am sorry that you do not see the connection.
The topic is faith-based approaches to medicine as opposed to evidence-based approaches.
Both the family in this article and the President of the United States have caused harm by blindly holding on to faith-based approaches that have been conclusively shown to be ineffective.
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Tangent0011 year, 8 months ago
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Indeed! PEPFAR (President's Emergency Plan For AIDS Relief) requires that 1/3 of the budget go toward abstinence-only programs.
From http://www.healthgap.org/camp/pepfar.html:
"Some 32 million quality-approved condoms remain impounded in government warehouses while the U.S. government ramps up financing for abstinence-only approaches to HIV prevention. According to Ugandan AIDS activists, the government's actions will undermine community efforts to reduce HIV prevalence and HIV transmission. These trends away from scientifically sound, evidence-based prevention strategies are occurring in Uganda and in other countries hard-hit by the AIDS epidemic, such as Nigeria, South Africa, and Zambia."
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IanFraigun1 year, 8 months ago
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Religion was designed by prehistoric man to try and make sense of what he did not and could not know. We now know much about many of these things due to thousands of years of increased knowledge.
Relegion can still clam a mind facing major issues in life both physical and emotional. If it does that then all the better for the individual.
On the other hand we know that there are aspects of science that can help with many things including some severe illnesses.
Using our human intelligence properly we should take advantage of all those achievements of men and if needed still rely on religion to emotionally calm us, but we should never ever try to use religion to cure what mankind has found the ability to cure.
I had a minor stroke several years ago and am on anti-coagulants for life. If I would decide to use religion and give up the medicine I say to those who know me they should have me committed for attempted suicide.
These parents are to blame for what happened.
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an15dy1 year, 8 months ago
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There a lot of people who are miss informed, the parents included. For them to expect some babble to heal their daughter it's absurd? Surely they went through some ailments in their lives that they prayed, and prayed about and it never releived the pain, it never helped, after that you'd think someone would get the hint, "there ain't nothing there!!!!!", quit being cheap... go see a @#@*#& doctor!!!
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djn3nunez31 year, 8 months ago
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While I agree with you about supernatural creatures, I don't think the charge of murder is warrented. I don't think her intent was to kill her child. I think it fits for the crime of negligent homicide. Nor do I think they deserve jail time because loosing a child has got to be the worst punishment, knowing that your negligence caused your childs death has got to be unbearable. I can't imagine it.
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lvrofwolves1 year, 8 months ago
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djn3nunez3-I agree except for if they think it was 'Gods will' that she die. I don't care if it's 'Gods will' or not, I wouldn't want my child to die, and I can't imagine letting any faith stopping me from trying anything possible, if that INCLUDED prayer, that'd be ok. From what I know of this case so far, it's negligent homicide.
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Bkumm1 year, 8 months ago
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Well, you may not believe one word of it, but this isn't the first time this has happened:
http://www.masskids.org/dbre/dbre_2.html
http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/gues...
So, there you have it.
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Panzival1 year, 8 months ago
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Hmmm this is a very similar to a story my parents once told me... Once their was a man and their was a flood. The man was sitting on his roof praying to god to save him. Then a man in a boat came offered to save. "No, God will save me." he said. Then another man in a boat came by and offered to save him. "No, God will save me." said the man. After, the man drowned and died. Once in heaven, he asked God why he didn't save him. "But I did," God said. "I sent you two people to rescue you."
Anyways, stupid parents. They should take their children away.
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saneman1 year, 8 months ago
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Where do these people come from? Are they hatched without brain stems. Its unbelieveable that caveman or living-under-the-rock people actually exist these days. Its hard to fathom such stupidity. This goes way beyond child abuse. They will be definitely charged with a homicide.
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markmawn21 year, 8 months ago
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To quote Morgan Freeman in "Deep Impact".
"Because I believe that God, whomever you hold that to be,
hears all prayers, even if sometimes the answer is no."
Healing is not a matter of illness but of health. However, when handled with arrogance and misunderstanding of the process, it can lead to greater illness and even death. It appears the parents were not listening for an answer to their prayers, but insisting on doing their own will over God's to prove a point. Then after their will failed, they excused it as God's.
I have seen reversals of illness that some would call miraculous. The reversal seems to occur after the afflicted person disengages, or detaches from the illness and sets an intention on health.
Good doctors are our teachers. They inform us on what we have and why we have it. Ultimately it is up to us to use the knowledge to return to health (if we want it), and sometimes outside assistance is required. The wise know when to use it.
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Bkumm1 year, 8 months ago
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This:
" "Because I believe that God, whomever you hold that to be,
hears all prayers, even if sometimes the answer is no." "
Is the biggest scam ever foisted on the religious. Sometimes God (god) doesn't answer your prayers because of X, Y or Z. What? Why pray to a supreme being who doesn't answer your prayers in the way that you want he, she or it to answer your prayers?
That's like saying you're dating a woman or a man that has broken up with you and married someone else. Oh, she or he will come around, they just haven't yet.
Move on.
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Mutainia1 year, 8 months ago
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God does not shy away from allowing His followers look like idiots to the non-believing world. Speaking about diabetes, IF you want to believe God is helping you in your battle with it, then cut down on carbs and exercise. Doing that sort of thing seems to be helping two of my loved ones who are battling this affliction. I don't have type 2 diabetes yet, but, that might be because I exercise after eating carbs. IF you want to beat diabetes, you have to litterally fight it like a prize-fighter. You've got to have the eye of the tiger with this affliction.
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markmawn21 year, 8 months ago
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I cannot offer a solution, only a suggestion. Take time to research Quantum Healing. Fighting often puts the focus where it should not be. Most people prefer treatment to a cure because it takes work, so they exhaust their energy "fighting". Also, illness provides a sort of false "power", and some people use that power to control others around them. In the long run, it renders you powerless in the end.
On a battlefield, does not the battle also harm the fighter? Why double the injury by taking poison to kill the poison?
I say, go for the CURE! Stop at nothing to look for any way that works for you! Be open minded!
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Mutainia1 year, 8 months ago
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So, you are against exercise when it comes to fighting back diabetes? All I know is, is that my dad, who is a border-line diabetic, has feet that start burning after he eats carbs due to a raised bllod sugar. He then goes off and exercises, blood sugar goes down, his feet feel better. But, if you feel no exercise helps, go for it.
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markmawn21 year, 7 months ago
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I wasn't specific to your situation. Exercise is GREAT! But exercise is a given for total health and fitness. We're built for it. Ever tried Stevia as a sweetener?
The biggest challenge to change is ridding one's self of addictions. Addictions are Ego based. Once addictions are removed (and that's the hardest part) then instinct kicks in. Soon you desire only things that help you. Even chocolate can be medicine if your body says it needs it! Your body is a smart device when the mind or limbic system is not out of whack. Drugs only trick the brain into releasing chemicals. A healthy mind can do better. The cumulative effect of unhealthy living is reversible, lest you get an arm cutoff or something.
Think Quantum!
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whosoeverwill1 year, 8 months ago
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skeptic271: you ask "Where in the Bible does it say that sometimes the answer is no? It says just the opposite, over and over again."
The point of the verses you quoted is the absolute necessity of trust in God's unlimited power, not a blank check for answered prayers. God has 3 answers for prayer: Yes. No. Wait.
Mary & Martha sent for Jesus immediately when Lazarus became ill. They had faith Jesus could heal him. However, Jesus intentionally waited until 4 days AFTER Lazarus had died to do anything. (At that time, the Jews believed the soul did not depart until after 3 days so Lazarus would have been considered beyond help.)
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whosoeverwill1 year, 8 months ago
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Jesus himself prayed "My Father! If it is possible, let this cup pass from Me. Yet not as I will, but as You will." Matthew 26:39. God said NO & Jesus went to the cross & was crucified.
Then there was Paul the Apostle: "To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. But he said to me, 'My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.'" 2 Corinthians 12:7-9 Again, God said NO.
Having faith is believing what is not seen however, it is NOT an excuse for inaction. Do either of the parents work or do they just have faith God will provide all their needs? Sounds like the same sort of reasoning to me!
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cter1 year, 8 months ago
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I feel most sorry for the loss of the girl whose only fault was having morons for parents. Religious freedom doesn't even begin to hide the fact that this was murder. Faith is a good thing, but should never be used for killing a child. As a diabetic, I know full well how easily treatable type 2 is as I have not had to use any medication. This was muder most foul, at the hands of those trusted by God to protect his most precious gifts.
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ls00701 year, 8 months ago
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religious whackjobs!!! i can't beleive that in this modern day of age, with cloned people and sex robots, genetic manipulation, and such intelligent people. (some) How is it possible that people still use such an insane concept like religion as a crutch? How much more proof will people need to realize the truth? What a shame..........that poor little girl didn't stand a chance.
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vor1 year, 8 months ago
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That's somewhere around 85% of Americans who believe that way. It all goes back to the compulsary need of parents to drag their children along the same path which they were previously dragged. This compulsion and subjugation is what allows religion to thrive and survive. Not the miraculous acts of a loving God. In this case it ended up causing an unnecessary death. The child never having a say as to whether she lived or died.
I will never forget the day when I was about 9 that I was tossed out of Sunday School for questioning the teacher. And then my mom telling me it was alright to develop my own beliefs. That I didn't have to conform if I did not feel the need. That was the day the chains were taken off and I began to truly learn. Most kids never get that chance. I don't mind at all that we free thinkers are in the minority. At least we can now speak out. In the olden days I would likely have spent my days in a dungeon or they simply would have put me to death as a heretic.
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smithichie1 year, 8 months ago
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"I've been praying for a sweet new 10 speed bike for 18 years now.....never got it".
That's because you don't know the secret to Christian prayer. If you want a bike, don't pray for a bike, instead steal a bike then pray for forgiveness for stealing.
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Daylight1 year, 8 months ago
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When someone asked the Prophet of Islam whether to tie the camel or put the trust in God, the Prophet told him to tie the camel first and put his trust in God. The parents should have opted for the medication for the girl and prayed to God for her speedy recovery.
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Thrasherguy051 year, 8 months ago
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i think these parents are idiots. they should be responsible for children if they think god is going to automatically heal every illness they get. yeah sure praying might help you feel better about it but it doesnt just make stuff disappear. Prayer isn't supposed to replace medical attention. if thats what it was intended for then we wouldnt need doctors, couple of dumb asses.
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Thrasherguy051 year, 8 months ago
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if believe so that there is a god, then pray to him for a better job, cause all im seeing is a bunch of people with no life writing comments about stories that are obviously so bored with their lives they have to talk about others lives and problems. besides sunday isnt even really the true holy day, read the bible, its saturday.
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vor1 year, 8 months ago
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How about tossing that relic of a book aside completely. Follow the Commandments (which predate Moses, if he existed at all) and skip the ones demanding fealty to one God. Add the fact that you will also treat women, children, and people of a different color with decency and fairness (somehow those got excluded from the original document). Realize that there is zero proof of the Exodus or of Moses on Mt. Sinai. Take that and the other stories of the Bible as myth (as they truly are). Forget whether Saturday or Sunday is the Sabbath. You will be surprised that your life will not change. That the Earth will continue to rotate around the sun and that certain calamity will not follow. Understand that you were taught to fear a God that was created by man. That there is in fact nothing to fear. Not even death.
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DeadXXXManXXXTalkin1 year, 8 months ago
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''Take that and the other stories of the Bible as myth (as they truly are). Forget whether Saturday or Sunday is the Sabbath. You will be surprised that your life will not change''
you couldn't be more wrong.
letting go of that particular view of the bible and reality changes you in a fundamental way, which changes your life
different mind with which to perceive life, different life. The 'details' of life may not change, stiil a welder, still 5'10" still in debt, but YOU become different, which of a necessity changes your life
Part of it usually involves a reduction in fear as well as joy
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DeadXXXManXXXTalkin1 year, 8 months ago
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sort of a trade off
Joseph Campbell, student of myth and all things 'religious', used to use the term terror/joy when referring to religious phenomenon
Interestingly, the pleasure and pain centers in the brain are very closely linked [hypothalmic region I think]
so maybe that explains terror/joy
the human nervous system is wired to notice difference, so a reduction in fear[and the immediacy of life myth may preserve] naturally reduces that childlike joy we experience thru contrast
Myth and religion at their best preserve our immediate emotional experience of life and give us a buffer or shield from psychic entropy
But as with all things of value, there's a price we pay
----
''That there is in fact nothing to fear. Not even death''
Dying unsatisfied with unfinished business in this life is something to fear, and whether the actual process of dying apart from that is nothing to fear or not, well, when someone comes back from it and says it's a breeze...
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vor1 year, 8 months ago
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I can't imagine that Christians would ever believe that they died with unfinished business? Afterall it is all according to God's plan.
To live without fear of death has taught me to be more aware of my surroundings and I have also learned not to take unneccesary risks with my physical body. Sort of like living in moderation something I definitely did not do before. I want to extend life not fear death. It is inevitable. Having died for a short period on an operating table taught me alot. I got a true second chance. I used to mountain bike, now I run, that sort of thing. Age is a definite factor as well.
Awareness should not be confused with fear, the two shouldn't be confused. The unaware are much more likey to walk in front of a car. Fate isn't the only thing in play.
I've read Campbell, Armstrong, Borg, none of them sufficiently explained it.
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DeadXXXManXXXTalkin1 year, 8 months ago
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Christians are people too. You can say they would just say we'll wait until we're in heaven, but suppose they want to express an emotion to a hellbound relation? No waiting then[see the book of Luke, Chasm, tongue, fire, cool, etc].
Christians come in all flavors, from the surprisingly rational to the totally irrational
I once asked a Pastor at my mom's church if she believed that if I took a shovel and dug long enough I'd end up in hell
she said 'yes'
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DeadXXXManXXXTalkin1 year, 8 months ago
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I made the illustration not to be caustic, but to make sure she understood my question if she thought hell was a physical place.
If you want to be technical there is no such thing as a living Christian; like Kamikazees, all the good ones are killed in practicing[their faith]
after all to follow Christ and his life is to martyr yourself, tho those with a metaphysical bent would use 'self' in a more Buddhist sense.
as for your claim to not be afraid of death, well, I've been close to death as well, and familiarity did not breed comfort for me.
can I ask how you know not to be afraid of something you've never experienced?
or is your stance, I've never experienced it, so why should I fear it, not knowing whether it is an unpleasant experience or not?
Logic would say it's not rational to say death is nothing to be afraid of, if one has no data on the matter
all we can do is shrug our collective scientific shoulders
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vor1 year, 8 months ago
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LOL on the comment about the pastor. Do agree with you that Christians come in all flavors. I do have quite a few Christian friends. We have just learned to agree to disagree and leave it at that.
I just don't fear the inevitable. Death is going to happen to all of us. We can make certain concessions as I have done to try to delay that fact but it is not under our control. I don't fear going to hell, no fear of judgment or condemnation. I don't fear the unknown (maybe looking forward to seeing the rest of the show I missed). I just don't fear it. I have seen others die right in front of me. A couple with the most pleasant smiles on their faces. I've always been a bit different regarding these matters. But we should all make the most of the one life that is known. Never assume anyone is correct as to what is on the other side.
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DeadXXXManXXXTalkin1 year, 7 months ago
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a thought:
maybe the Pastor thought I was 'unsaved'
maybe the Pastor meant if I kept digging long enough I'd die of a heart attack
and end up in hell that way!
:-)
I don't fear death in the abstract either, but abstract and conceptualizing it, and having one foot in the bucket is two different things
I'm afraid to die in that I'm afraid to leave this life 'unfulfilled'
as for the experience of dying, what it feels like, it may be the most pleasurable feeling available to us, for all we know
and as perverse as life is in all its contradictions and paradoxes, having the most pleasant thing in life being leaving it would seem entirely appropriate to me
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kyodi19961 year, 8 months ago
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These people had to take their daughter to the doctor to have her diagnosed in the first place, god didn't tell them she was sick or what kind of sickness she had. So why is it that they couldn't get her medical treatment? No one will ever know the real truth because they won't say it. It could have been the cost of the care and medicine, being a diabetic myself, I know how much they cost. I highly doubt that it was simply because they thought god would save her, that's just a bullcrap copout. And the father is an Ex COP. He above anyone should know when medical treatment is necessary and if he doesn't then he NEVER SHOULD HAVE BEEN A COP. Basically they should have gotten her treatment, no matter what the cost, how much training and education they needed to understand the disease and take care of their daughter. Their other children should be taken away and they should be prosecuted.
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kyodi19961 year, 8 months ago
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Religion is not an alternative to proper medical care. They are trying to blame god for their actions, how pathetic is that? God didn't tell them to deny her medical help, that was their choice. People like this sicken me. My daughter runs a high risk of developing diabetes because I have it and it runs on both sides of mine and my husbands families. I've had her checked one a year since she was born. In some ways I do agree that some people shouldn't be allowed to have children, but not that we should have licenses for it. Yeah it's wrong to try and say who can have kids and who can't, but would we rather have people like this have kids and murder them or just prevent it from the get go?
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