Comments for Women soldiers being raped more than killed by enemy fire »
Posted By Aidenag 1 year, 7 months ago in NewsIn today 's LA Times, Rep. Jane Harman sheds light on the staggering number of sexual assaults within the military, stating, "Women serving in the U.S. military are more likely to be raped by a fellow soldier than killed by enemy fire in Iraq."
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Aidenag1 year, 7 months ago
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UnusualSuspect1 year, 7 months ago
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The idea that it's more likely being attacked and raped by fellow soldiers in your own or other units than being attacked, raped, or killed by Iraqis is just amazing to me.
As a male, I am ashamed of my brothers overseas who have committed these crimes. I would strongly urge these women to pursue charges against these cowards, to the fullest extent of the law!
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dandt16121 year, 7 months ago
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DropkickaLib1 year, 7 months ago
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I think that military discipline standards have suffered during recent years, according to what my friends in the military have told me. Could you imagine someone like R. Lee Ermey putting up with that kind of indiscipline when he was a Marine Corps drill instructor during the Vietnam War?
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PapaWolf1 year, 7 months ago
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>>I think that military discipline standards have suffered during recent years
Actually, it's not so recent. There are support groups for women who have been raped dating back to, IIRC, either WW-II or the Korean War.
Also, I had a close friend when I was in college almost 25 years ago. She had entered the military just after she turned 18. I got a call from her late one night telling me that 3 or 4 guys in her unit followed her into the bathroom & raped her. That's one of the most helpless feelings I've ever had.
So, no, it's not relatively recent.
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Petom11 year, 7 months ago
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You're right PW. This has been one of the military's "dirty little secrets" for years. During the time I served 30 years ago there were far fewer women and rape by fellow soldiers was almost a routine and seldom investigated thoroughly. Add 5-6 times more women in the services and a combat environment where discipline becomes secondary to mission and survival and it's going to get nasty in a hurry.
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sacscale1 year, 7 months ago
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Yes, that seems to be the problem; rape is not relativly as important as survival. And the opportunity for that kind of behavior is increasing with the increasing use of females in a combat zone. It is unfortunate yet inevitable that a military exercise less moral restraints and inexcusable that our military is slow to support the welfare of it's members and the civilians for whom they are fighting.
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injest1 year, 7 months ago
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Other true stories
Woman living in the USA are more likely to be raped by fellow Male US citizens than killed in gangland crossfire.
FTA
"These are true stories, and, sadly, not isolated incidents.
Women serving in the U.S. military are more likely to be raped by a fellow soldier than killed by enemy fire in Iraq."
Over the top statement.
There have been 1,400,000 military personnel that have served in Iraq, 03/03/20 to 08/03/31. 4012 deaths to date. Of that 95 have been female, of that 59 Female soldiers (all branches) Killed by Hostile fire, 36 by Non-Hostile.
http://icasualties.org/oif/Female.aspx
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mesodude1 year, 7 months ago
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"Woman living in the USA are more likely to be raped by fellow Male US citizens than killed in gangland crossfire."
Wow...If things are as bad here as you indicate it sounds like we should be using those trillions of dollars we're spending in Iraq to civilize our own citizens first.
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DropkickaLib1 year, 7 months ago
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You know your story reminds me of an incident from the late 1980s involving the sister of an old college girlfriend of mine. Her sister enlisted in the Navy and the recruiter was promising women better military assignments if they had sex with him. I don't know how many women fell for this line but apparently a number, including my girlfriend's sister. He was eventually caught and disciplined. I think that her sister didn't enter the Navy as a result of this situation. It's been 20 years and the story slipped my mind until just now.
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PapaWolf1 year, 7 months ago
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These are all horrific. We may not agree on politics, but this is something we can all agree on. And having 4 sisters & a daughter, this is kind of worries me, too. As someone else posted in here, these are the same people who will be discharged into our general population.
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bruhaha1 year, 7 months ago
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I didn't mean to imply that they weren't. I just happened to pick up on that story particularly because it is "more relevant" to where I live. The gang graffiti was "Chi-town". I live and work around Chicago. Not to mention, that it's not just blacks and other minorities in the gangs.
On top of the gangs, the military now allows white supremacists into the ranks. Add to the plain criminal element that have been let in and you've got one hell of a mix. Giving our white supremacists combat training that can be used for the "race wars" or whatever.....doesn't seem too smart.
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Teech1 year, 7 months ago
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..."Did we send men of honor or uncontrolable animals over seas? What a disgrace"
Most of the soldiers sent to Iraq are, indeed, men of honor. A few, like the moron president who sent them over there based on lies and greed, are worse than uncontrolable animals. They are simple war criminals and should be prosecuted as such.
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PapaWolf1 year, 7 months ago
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>>I would strongly urge these women to pursue charges against these cowards, to the fullest extent of the law!
Listening to interviews w/female soldiers who were victims of rape, many did try. Either they were told to shut up, brought up on charges, or put back into their old units under the command of the very soldiers that raped them in the 1st place.
It's horrific.
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mesodude1 year, 7 months ago
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"The idea that it's more likely being attacked and raped by fellow soldiers in your own or other units than being attacked, raped, or killed by Iraqis is just amazing to me."
--You're not the only one who is amazed. Imagine what the rest of the world thinks of us when people read such stories. This is one of countless reasons America shouldn't be in the business of "civilizing" other nations (and it's also why we shouldn't simply give firearms to anyone who can find his way to a gun shop).
We still treat women as less than, we'd rather spend money on weapons than children's healthcare, we're some of the most violent people on the planet and we believe that might makes right. What the hell kinda warped, Twilight Zone inspired version of a moral high ground is that supposed to be?
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mesodude1 year, 7 months ago
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"according to the constitution the govt isn't to spend money on health care.that is the responsibility of the individual."
--I see...So then I take it you've contacted President Bush and told him you think we should strip him, Laura, Barney and the twins of their "un-Constitutional" health insurance (among many other benefits they receive) paid for with your tax dollars, correct ?
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Blackacereturn1 year, 7 months ago
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There is seemingly no end to the mess that this war has created! Why is it that we are now hearing about this horrid behavior? Once again the left wing media has sought to protect the right of this country by keeping this under raps! Now one have to wonder is all the other things we hear about our solders are true! I am not Against our solders I think they are remarkable under the conditions they are put in but this just cant happen, it's another black eye to our nation as a world leader. They should weed out these criminals and string them up by the NUTS TILL DEAD! These ladies have more to worry about than weather or not our own solders are going to rape them.
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Seth_Cohen1 year, 7 months ago
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You were doing good until you mentioned "left wing media" ???? The "left-wing" has been against the war from the start, and I don't think the media is very left-wing to begin with. Not even sure what relevancy that has to the whole topic.
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Blackacereturn1 year, 7 months ago
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Set and Aji - I was playing on words. "The left wing media has sought to protect the right of this country by keeping this under raps" I was being ironic well attempting to be! And while the underground media has been reporting this, the main stream media hasn't!
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mesodude1 year, 7 months ago
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Yes, but the soldiers aren't the ones signing up convicted felons (because no one else thinks our military is worth joining anymore) and looking the other way or passing the buck when our enlisted people engage in criminal behavior.
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lvrofwolves1 year, 7 months ago
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They should be informed yes, and also what means they can take if it happens, but seriously, I don't think recruiters would ever tell women the stats, or give anyone else any negative stats. #1 reason I didn't join the army like I wanted to, was because the recruiter that came to my house told me several bald face lies, trying to convince me to sign up.
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disraeli1 year, 7 months ago
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I rather doubt that anyone sensible would consider the subject matter of this piece to be suitable April fools material.
On that note, although today is indeed April 1, the piece was dated yesterday March 31.
This op-ed, rather than expose the "rampant hypocrisy in the lefts 'we support the troops'" lead to your comment. Which, comprised as it is of the clutching at straws approach that typifies the cloistered narrow thinking of some on the right, exposes something quite different and hopefully not rampant.
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DoseASpinoza1 year, 7 months ago
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And let's not forget that in not prosecuting these offenders, the military is making an active choice to cut sex offenders loose on our home society.
But it's nothing new: my uncle is a pedophile and after committing an offense in Japan in the 60s, he was given a sexual misconduct discharge from the Navy and nobody was warned that he was out assaulting children. I have no idea how many he assaulted since then. All I could do is warn authorities where he lives now to watch out for him.
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HannibalBarca1 year, 7 months ago
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As crude as this sounds it is bound to happen when women are introduced into what was a male orientated area.
Does anyone remember 10-15 years ago when women rights allowed women reporters to enter into a male locker room after a hard fought struggle by the male team? Total crap is what happened.
Am I a chauvinist when I believe there are places women should not be, no, just common sense can see what I see.
I work on the oil rigs and until 5 years ago, women were not there, now they are starting to get into the work force and good for them, but at the same time they are bringing in a factor that was never there before, sexuality, and some males can't handle it, some females flaunt it and what you have is a cluster f*&k till it gets sorted, if ever.
Women have every right a man has, but regardless of sex, there are places where they should not be together.
Imagine a man wanting to interview the winning womans volleyball team in their locker room,,,,yeah right
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earthlingerer1 year, 7 months ago
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No, this is clearly a problem in a stupid society of criminals. Americans lock up more of their own than any other country, and with good reason.
Although many other countries (Canada, Israel, Germany, Russia, and Sweden) have women in the military, even in combat. These countries don't have the same problems as the US.
Some US servicewomen have even stated that racially segregated military units would eliminate more than 80% of these rapes and assaults.
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DropkickaLib1 year, 7 months ago
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Jaydee401 year, 7 months ago
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DropkickaLib1 year, 7 months ago
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Women are assigned to combat units in Isreal but not to combat deployments. They get transferred prior to actually engaging the enemy. I'm sure that the Russians don't send women into combat either. I don't think the other countries mentioned have had any wars lately so clearly women haven't seen combat there.
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Jaydee401 year, 7 months ago
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DropkickaLib1 year, 7 months ago
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DropkickaLib1 year, 7 months ago
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Neophile1 year, 7 months ago
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DropkickaLib1 year, 7 months ago
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DropkickaLib1 year, 7 months ago
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I actually just looked this up. Apparently, Canada is the only Western country to assign women to combat units and has done so since 1987. I also read that only a relatively small number have actually been trained for these roles. Of course, the Canadian military will also pay for sex change operations so I don't see the U.S. following their model of social engineering.
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Neophile1 year, 7 months ago
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This is a pretty good history of women in Canada's military:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/cdnmilitary/w...
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DropkickaLib1 year, 7 months ago
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Lord, I hear that. That deserved more than one positive. My wife is a Liberal Democrat and I'm an extremely Conservative Republican. People here who think that I hate Lefties are clearly wrong. I come here because I can't speak my mind at home. :)
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injest1 year, 7 months ago
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Wrong again Neo.
Females are not assigned to "front line combat duty". Below is a link to all casualties for Iraq. 2 female Helicopter pilots have been killed in action. Most of the rest killed due to hostile fire were IEDs, indirect fire (mortars, artillery) and RPGs in convoys.
http://icasualties.org/oif/Female.aspx
Capt. Kimberly N. Hampton, 27, of Easley, S.C., was killed on Jan. 2, 2004, in Fallujah, Iraq.
Hampton, was the pilot on a Kiowa, OH-58, Observation Helicopter when it was shot down by enemy ground fire and crashed. Hampton died as a result of her injuries.
Capt. Jennifer J. Harris, 28, of Swampscott, Mass.
All five Marines died Feb. 7 when the helicopter they were flying in crashed while supporting combat operations in Al Anbar province, Iraq
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Seth_Cohen1 year, 7 months ago
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Disagree with you. I think americans lock up more of their own partly because of the barbaric drug laws in this country, where we lock up a lot of people for non-violent crimes that don't hurt anybody.
Second, I think one general problem with the military right now is that they've had to lower their recruiting standards so much that now they're just bringing in uneducated thugs. This was a false war created on false pretenses by the neo-con extremists, and any well-informed person would think twice about joining the military to do these extremists' bidding. So what we're left with is a bunch of unqualified thugs joining the military.
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mesodude1 year, 7 months ago
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"Americans lock up more of their own than any other country, and with good reason."
--You mean because America has a history of enslaving, raping, lynching and otherwise oppressing black people? Is that the reason you're getting at?
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lvrofwolves1 year, 7 months ago
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I agree that there are some places men and women just shouldn't be together, locker rooms best example, but on the other hand I'd expect everyone to show some self control for god sakes. I have no patience for women teasing or flaunting in a 'work' setting either, especially one that is or has been mostly male dominated, both sexes need to understand and follow bounderies.
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swasdiva1 year, 7 months ago
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While it is inexcusable and abhorrent in any circumstance, you've got a point. I've never been in the military, but I imagine any isolated, high stress situation like that can turn people feral. Still, the lack of necessary punishment contradicts the heinousness of the crime. These men think they can get away with it. That's what's despicable. Do you think a stronger punishment would deter the behavior?
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mrbs1 year, 7 months ago
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yes ..however removing the temptation would do better.keeping women and men separated would go allot further.this is one of the reasons used in the arguments against mixing women into the military in the first place.this just proves those arguments valid witch is one of the things that this article avoids.that should be part of the focus instead of using it to bash the "good ol boy" network.it was that network who opposed the integration in the first place.
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Jaydee401 year, 7 months ago
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I disagree, much of the assaults seem to be in the rear area including one when a female was assaulted by a doctor during a physical. It would seem these men simple are looking for someone to lash out at and if not this victim then another. You simply can't isolate them forever so sooner or later it's going to happen. I think one of the biggest contributers is lack of access to mental health services by overworked personnel. These boys are stressed to the breaking point and the women are paying the price.
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lamorena071 year, 7 months ago
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i totally agree, there are places women shouldnt be, and the army is definitely one of them. there was a reason that back in the days, women werent allowed to serve in the military, only as a nurse. it is common sense. its like putting a bowl of candy in front of a group of children and telling them that its off limits. you know one of them is going to grab.
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mesodude1 year, 7 months ago
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" its like putting a bowl of candy in front of a group of children and telling them that its off limits."
--Maybe it's men who were raised with a sense of entitlement and socialized to think of women as "candy" who should be excluded from the military. Just a thought...
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Seth_Cohen1 year, 7 months ago
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I have mixed feelings about your comments. On the one hand, I do believe that women probably shouldn't go to war to begin with. I think war is pretty much a male-created black mark on humanity, and there is no need for women to join in, as much as I do believe in equality on every other issue. However, I had an issue with you bringing up women "flaunting" - because that puts the blame of rape on the women. This is a MALE problem, and it's the males who need to engage in corrective behavior for this, not women.
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Blackacereturn1 year, 7 months ago
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Hanniba - What are you saying? That this is expected...there is no reason to be raped! The women in locker rooms take their chances men take showers in there, this my friend is not the same thing! They are there fighting for us, yes, you are a chauvinist! I don't get this type of thinking, the cavalier approach most of you take to these ladies being raped and nothing being done about it, they are not our enemy they are our solders for crying out loud!
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HannibalBarca1 year, 7 months ago
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Then read again, and again till you get it.
It is quite simple, put 100 men into an environment and let them bond, now add 10 women, 1 or 2 men will be jerks.
Am I being a chauvinist? NO !!! realistic Yes, and until these 100 men are used to the idea of women being beside them there will be problems.
As for the 1 or 2 jerks, cut there nuts off
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Blackacereturn1 year, 7 months ago
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Truth is I don't want to get what you are saying. It's stupid and puts men back a million years. Raping a woman is WRONG regardless of the situation. Men fighting over a woman is also the act of a fool and maybe you should have fired them. But you are soo stupid i don't think you will ever get it. i hope you don't have children boys or girls.
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HannibalBarca1 year, 7 months ago
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You say I am stupid because I can see 1 or 2 jerks in a crowd of 100??????WTF
I suppose yo want to cuddle these 1 or 2 poor misfits because their mommy didn't treat them right,
You need to learn to read, point out once where I condoned rape. you can't
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Blackacereturn1 year, 7 months ago
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I am talking about the Raping of American solders by American solders! What are you talking about! I can care less how much of an idiot the 1 or 2 jerks in a crowd are, when the conversation is about women being rape, to me any form of justification or excuses for men doing this is absolutely idiotic! What you are doing here is blaming the women, what you have failed to see in your example is that the men were being just as emotional as you accused the woman of being after all she didn't start the fight. If your worker didn't think he owned her he would have realize she is not a good woman and do what I would have done move on and leave her be!
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tehranchik1 year, 7 months ago
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Guys----rape is about power. Women are around every corner. Why is this happening this often in the military? Is it a group mentality? Is it a way to mark territory?
Hannibal said something very interesting "there are places women should not be". I can agree if he means the men's locker room. I also agree that men shouldn't be allowed in the women's locker rooms. BUT---do you realize how close this, learned attitude of women shouldn't be there, is to men in other cultures believing women should be covered from head to toe?
Women are raped just because they are there???
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tkyrchncs1 year, 7 months ago
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Why ARE there men's or women's locker rooms? Or bathrooms? Or teams? These are generally agreed to be ok, but we all know that "separate but equal" is not viable. The thinking that rape occurs because the sexes are not segregated when they should be is anachronistic, to be kind about it. What happened when senior military officials declared that racially desegregated military would be a bad idea? Truman told then to make it work or leave their stars on the table when they left, and we need a modern president who will make similar courageous and decisive commitments to human equality.
Where are the other SOLDIERS in this? No man in any barracks I was ever housed in would have lived through the first night that such behavior was known of him. And for doctors and commanders there are always friendly fire tragedies.
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HannibalBarca1 year, 7 months ago
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I do not know the army, but have worked rigs for 32 years.
On a rig there are 3 crews of 5-7 men each with 1 crew on time off at all times by rotating them.
There is also 2 drivers on site, a tool push, and consultant.
For 27 years this is how I worked, all men, if a woman drove on lease work slowed down and everyone wanted to talk to her if possible, but there was a saying that was an unwritten rule "no snatch in the patch"
In the last 5 years women have entered into this and now we have problems, we men have to change how we joke, dress look at women or face sexual harassment charges and there are many, it is a young man work force and as such, chasing women is the norm.
This winter I had the first female ever on a steady basis under my control and after a few days she felt comfortable with me so we talked and she asked me what was the best way to get along with the crew; I told her to f%8k them all or none, as soon as you play a favourite the rest get jealous.
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HannibalBarca1 year, 7 months ago
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Anyway she did not listen and picked herself a boyfriend, and this was in a camp job; 450 men 35-40 women.
Come Saturday night, the crew minus the woman all go to town and get drunk, boyfriend also.
Girlfriend got pis sed as she was not invited so she is off to some other room.
2 in the morn the boyfriend comes back from town, horny, drunk and can not find his girl so he starts a ruckus destroys his room wakes up other workers and gets into a fight, gets calmed down till the girlfriend comes back and then he explodes.
Next morning I hear of this and now I have to fire 4 good workers because of company policy, 5 years ago this would have never happened
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earthlingerer1 year, 7 months ago
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Sounds like your business has had to wake up to the real world, and not one controlled by men.
It sounds like there was only one worker in the wrong, and he wasn't a female, but a substance abuser with serious emotional problems that their boss couldn't see as being more of a liability to the company than an asset.
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HannibalBarca1 year, 7 months ago
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I agree, but at the same time, women are now coming into the work force and until the thinking changes we have, and this is my comment from a day ago "what you have is a cluster f*&k till it gets sorted, if ever"
And getting drunk is not a substance abuser, it is if done on a regular basis and this was never mentioned.
Still you never commented on women execs who abuse their power,and that is on the rise.
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bill29361 year, 7 months ago
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earthlinger,
It sounds like your 'real world' needs to wake up to real life. After working for a few years as a geologist/mudlogger on the rigs, you find out it is a hard job in a tough dangerous world. Maybe after you spent a few nights at zero degress and a stiff wind, you would understand.
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Ajierene1 year, 7 months ago
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So, does the fact that the job is 'hard' mean that women cannot handle it?
Does it mean that men should not be expected to have self control because they have a physically demanding job?
As far as HannibalBarca is concerned - men abuse executive power as much as women do. The rate of women abusing executive power correlates with the amount of women in executive roles, a role a decade or so ago was not considered a role women could perform successfully.
Also, there are different forms of alcoholism. Binge drinking is one of them. Going to a bar and not being able to stop yourself from drinking. And don't give me 'well, they only get to drink once a year' or any such nonsense. I have a demanding job and know other people with demanding and/or stressful jobs and lives and drink only occasionally and somehow can manage to have just a few drinks - whether or not people are egging us on to drink more.
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HannibalBarca1 year, 7 months ago
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I never disputed the fact that men abuse power, all I said was power corrupts,,,MEN AND WOMEN,,, and rape is by far a man's crime.
As for stress, you have the cornerstone on how to deal with it?
Since when were you the ultimate authority on how others deal with stress.
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Blackacereturn1 year, 7 months ago
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Awww I FKIN feel for you Hanni! what the hell are you saying. It was wrong to disrespect them in the first place if they were there or not! My grandmother told me "respect is what you show when the person isn't in the room." if you wouldn't call or say those things about your mother, sister, wife, or child then they shouldn't be said about any women. While words are invented to speak some are better left unsaid! I guess you and your boys feel put upon because you cant put women down anymore, well a proper man wouldn't have been in that position in the first place! Your vulgarity has no place in a civilize society, well we say we are anyway. We are not animals are we?
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Ajierene1 year, 7 months ago
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Thank you - my family and my boyfriend (total of about 25 men) are the first ones that come to mind that not only would not talk about women in a degrading way, but would correct anyone talking about women in such a way. Now that I think about it, the men in my unit would also agree that they do not say anything when in the room by themselves that they would not say if women were in the room.
They would never have a problem with women in any role, so long as she can do her job. Any woman or man that can do the job is welcome to help and any woman or man that cannot is welcome to leave.
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Blackacereturn1 year, 7 months ago
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I agree with you tkyrchncs! This isn't about culture shock wow look girls, this is about an encouraged behavior. I am starting to think we have a few rapist among us. Any an that would reason this away must not come from a mother! No matter how you shake this it's wrong. If they were raping men you would all be upping arms calling for their heads but because it's women that are being raped it's alright or some how more palatable, it's not to me they should be shot, this is a reflection of a lack of decency, it's a reflection of this government, they are bullies and now so are our male solders!
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Blackacereturn1 year, 7 months ago
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Yeah, well look again Jaydee40. When you start pinning this action on the women for putting themselves in this position and for wanting to make as much money as men and invading your work space guess what buddy you are saying it's good that they got rape. You are saying you would do it too or condone it! Mind, I am not saying you but i am saying anyone who seems to think that these ladies asked for it by being in a mans world. It's not your world it's our world!
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Jaydee401 year, 7 months ago
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Saying women need to take an active role in protecting them self is in no way condoning or justifying rape. Nobody pulled women down for wanting to make as much money as men or that it's good they got raped, I ask you why you imposed your obvious paranoia on others posts? For the record people who put themselves in risky situations whether male or female play a part in whatever happens to them. What did people say when drug users and homosexuals contracted Aids? They were denounced for their reckless choices right... It's the same thing with rape or any other crime, the best protection is not to put yourself at high risk.
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lkrdgevaComment removed: Retracted by user
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HannibalBarca1 year, 7 months ago
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--do you realize how close this, learned attitude of women shouldn't be there, is to men in other cultures believing women should be covered from head to toe?.........
--As I said "and what you have is a cluster f*&k till it gets sorted, if ever.
--Women in the military is a new concept, or oil patch or any what was once a male orientated area. You add women you have problems.
--To me this was like segregation, when you forceably bused in other races and colours into schools that were predominately of one colour you had problems.
--There is no excuse for rape, never has been and should never be, but common sense says to me that in an all one sex type of situation you have problems introducing the other into it, and I am sure that while it may not be physical rape, many women execs abuse their power toward men who are lower in rank
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bill29361 year, 7 months ago
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But in those other countries, the women in the military don't as like women in the military, but act like military personnel. Just remember that in the US military they have Maternity BDUs. Think about that. For those not familiar with real life BDU is 'BATTLE DRESS UNIFORM'.
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tehranchik1 year, 7 months ago
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For Hanni----"but common sense says to me that in an all one sex type of situation you have problems introducing the other into it,"
There is a transition of getting used to having women in certain situations---but why rape?
The 'common sense' of it has to change. There are board rooms all across this nation filled with men to only a couple of women. Those women aren't being raped. Are the men in board rooms different than the men in the military? Haven't lots of those men in the board rooms been in the military?
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HannibalBarca1 year, 7 months ago
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tehranchik: you ask
There is a transition of getting used to having women in certain situations---but why rape?
And to use your own words
Guys----rape is about power.
And my point about women in boardrooms was about this...power
Yes there are very few women rapists but as women get power so do these incidents rise.
Rape is wrong, and the punishment for rape is not severe enough, nor are the laws made so that females can feel like they can get justice,...sometimes the court case is worse than the crime
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Blackacereturn1 year, 7 months ago
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"As I said "and what you have is a cluster f*&k till it gets sorted, if ever" Are you that thick that you cant see where this comment condones the action of the solders. Things are the way they are because of people like you willing to say f it this is just the way things are, cant you see that things are like this because you do nothing to change it? As a black man i get this all the time in discussion with my white friends and i get on them. I say if Bob in invoice starts talking about blacks being the N word if you don't tell him to stop you are as much to be blamed for continuing this thinking.
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globalwarmer1 year, 7 months ago
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Normal men do not rape or harm women, there is a disease in our military. There must be some gang mentality that sparks these cowards to rape.
These guys need to share a cell with their own personal Bubba. They should all feel the same pain and humiliation their victims felt.
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nikkibabe1 year, 7 months ago
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For a sex addicted nation with legalized porno industry, distribution of condoms in college campuses which promotes sex among students, it is no wonder the sex starved maniacs snap.
If they are in the military, it is just coincidence.
It is the culture and not a problem.
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Dionys1 year, 7 months ago
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"For a sex addicted nation with legalized porno industry, distribution of condoms in college campuses which promotes sex among students, it is no wonder the sex starved maniacs snap. "
Rape isn't about sex or sex addiction. It's about feeling the need to exercise power in a powerless situation. When you drop poorly trained, undereducated, often criminal (these days) troops into a horrid situation they will feel powerless and take out their feelings on those they feel will re-inforce their ideas of what power is.
Rape is inexcusable. The problem isn't women in the military or women in combat situations, it's animals in BDUs given free reign by their commanders who refuse to prosecute. Part of the problem (and you can ask any woman that's come back) is that the officers are as much a problem as the enlisted -- married ones often approach women who aren't their spouses. It's disgusting.
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Jaydee401 year, 7 months ago
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Rape has almost as many reasons and perpetrators, they don't fit into nice little check lists. Rape is wrong? why? What is wrong with it? I'm not justifying it or saying it's OK, it's not. But the armed forces mentality is all about taking what you want by force and if the enemy can't protect it the don't deserve respect, hardly a mentality that is contrary to rape is it? Military is all about enforcing your will on a weaker people or persons, why expect any different? It was always that way, the strongest and best soldiers get better treatment so now you introduce women into the mix and surprise, the strong prey on the weak. Go back to Roman times, Generals understood down time was dangerous for troops so they had then build while not fighting to keep them busy so they wouldn't gamble or visit brothels or bars causing problems with discipline. How much down time do modern troops have and just what is there to do with their time could be a factor as well.
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Jaydee401 year, 7 months ago
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Son of Sam blamed a neighbors dog, people who commit crimes will blame anyone but them self. The point I am making is not about the men committing rape but that women need to make smart decisions not to put themselves at greater risk. I think any man who would do something like that is clinically insane, but thats not a defense, just a diagnoses.
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sumptuousdigs1 year, 7 months ago
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Perhaps some women don't make smart choices, let's still put the heat on the bad actor, Jaydee. Many women do make good choices, and still are victimized. They're both victims. Now, do you tell the one that made good choices, we'll take your case, and the other one to take a hike?
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Poulenc1 year, 7 months ago
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Nikke, the sex drive is fundamental and transcends immediate culture.
The need for sex is undoubtedly increased by a situation that often (although not always) results in enforced celibacy; by the tensions of training and/or the danger of battle, etc.
HOWEVER, rape is immoral and those guilty of it should be expelled from the service and/or otherwise punished.
Would it not make sense to provide access to sexual relief to soldiers wishing it in some formal/controlled fashion?
Horrors, say the puritanical! But, why not?
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DropkickaLib1 year, 7 months ago
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There are photos of lines of naval personnel as far as the eye can see lined up outside of a brothel in Honolulu during WWII. I read about a brothel in Australia located in a town visited by a U.S. naval vessel during the present Iraq War and so many of the crew went there that they had to close down for 2 or 3 days to give the girls a rest.
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smartsweetheart1 year, 7 months ago
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That´s exactly the reason why I am sceptical concerning female soldiers. For these women, being in close physical neighbourhood to men who were forced to be sexually abstinent for a long time, creates a dangerous constellation. Recrutes should learn more about the psychological and biological facts to be prepared in critical situations. To be raped is surely one of the most disgusting experiences a woman can make in her lifetime. So, if she wants to take this risk besides the "normal" risk to be killed during a fight, call it courage, call it acting hazardous!
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Dionys1 year, 7 months ago
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So it's a woman's fault for being near animal rapists who claim to be soldiers and human beings? Faulty, offensive, twisted logic of the same type that Islamists use to require their women to wear Bhurkas. It's like blaming a robbery victim for having their wallet in their pocket. Or a murder victim for walking somewhere. Offensive.
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Jaydee401 year, 7 months ago
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" It's like blaming a robbery victim for having their wallet in their pocket. Or a murder victim for walking somewhere."
It's done every day, and become acceptable practice. It's time women accept their role in these actions as well or they will never be stopped.
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HannibalBarca1 year, 7 months ago
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No way, I disagree with you here.
Very few men will ever be raped by physical force, they may be forced by threats but physical...not. This is not the case with women getting raped.
Also if a woman rapist is caught, the male victim will not be dragged through the mud, have his character assassinated, be implied that he deserved it in what we call a law court, of course these same courts are another mostly boys club.
Rape is wrong, whether by a conquering army or a physco, and a society that puts women into what was a male orientated section of society, then this will happen
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Jaydee401 year, 7 months ago
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This time I must disagree with you HB, in many cases all a woman need do is accuse a man and he is found guilty of rape. While I admit that the good old boys club may still be present in the military it has gone the way of the DODO in civilian life. Now mind you there are always exceptions to every rule.
You mention how a male victim of a rape would not be drug through the mud but I dispute that very much, any legal counsel who didn't bring into question the character of the accuser is inept at the very least.
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Mdiar1 year, 7 months ago
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I had a brother raped... was apparently lying, or so the argument was. Never went to trial. He was so traumatized by it that he couldn't recall the date. What are the statistics on male rape victims going to trial, if you know them?
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DeadXXXManXXXTalkin1 year, 7 months ago
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''It's time women accept their role in these actions as well ''
you are on some very thin ice here with this statement
If you mean there are things a woman can do to lessen her chances of being the 'grunt'[crazy typo] of criminal behavior, then I'm with you
But the 'role' a rape victim has in the 'action' of rape is NEVER responsibility
Regardless of any circumstance or behavior, the culpability always lies with the rapist
It's taken centuries for the majority of people to figure this out
Now are there circumstances and behaviors that make one more likely to fall victim to rape[or any crime]?
sure
someone who stays in their house and is a hermit is far less likely to get raped, but such an incident happened in my area recently
and she is no more or less responsible for what happened to her than the woman in another case here who was out and about and dressed up.
Dionys is 100% correct on this one
and yes, I live in a sh!tty crime-ridden city [6th nationally per capita]
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Jaydee401 year, 7 months ago
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What is the prime goal in society with regards to rape? You can never eliminate it or make it so that it never happens to someone, that's unrealistic. The only thing is to limit the numbers of people it happens to and to do that you need to look at areas or increased risk, many women already know them but ignore them so they play a part in the reason for their own rape, like it or not. I don't know about in the military but here when a doctor examines a female patient they must have an assistant of the female persuasion present who protects both parties. Is that the case in the military? I ask because one of the cases mentions mentioned a doctor. Now a good example of how to lessen the risk would be to insist in having another female present during the exam.
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HMMaceComment removed: Spammer, Hard Banned14 Replies
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nikkibabe1 year, 7 months ago
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If this is not a sex addicted nation, how would someone explain the # of middle and high school "white" female teachers seducing and raping their students?
The upbringing starts right at school level where these "raped" maniacs return the favor later!
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Poulenc1 year, 7 months ago
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Nikke, there's no such thing as "a sex addicted nation." I mean, theoretically, there COULD be, but you're drawing a false connection between the prevalence of sexual "cues" in a culture and the dangerous--which is to say, criminal--acting out of sexual impulse.
What there IS is a rabid media culture that digs out "news" items that in former times wouldn't have seen the lighter light of day.
That we live in a less puritanical culture than we did previously is so and, in my opinion, a good thing.
One must not, however, throw the baby out with the bath water by insisting that we retreat to a time of greater sexual repression. Which can't happen anyway.
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Jaydee401 year, 7 months ago
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Mdiar1 year, 7 months ago
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Huh? I don't have any statistical evidence, true, but I do have the weakest evidence of them all... anecdotal! I have a few friends from Europe, sexually speaking they are more repressed then I... and I come from the so called "bible belt"... I see no real view of sex as "dirty" from the people here. Its not really discussed compared to other topics, but its definitely not treated like its dirty. Teachers would joke about it to the upper level classes and I see others joking about it all the time. Others consider it an embarrassing subject, but these tend to be private people as opposed to those who consider it dirty. I see my mother, a women who reads the bible on a daily basis, joke about it more then just about anyone else over forty. Maybe other areas of the country have a different view of it... but I see most from this state treat it like this. Including the more rural areas I go to often. Not to argue... just saying what I notice in Missouri.
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Mdiar1 year, 7 months ago
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Anyway I can only go by what I've experienced... if you have any statistics that say differently, or other evidence, feel free to share it. Anecdotal is the weakest form of evidence and I won't even debate it to much. My state probably isn't the norm, particularly for the region. Stephen Colbert once had a go at us for being the most liberal state in the heartland :O But from what I've seen here its not considered dirty.
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jimdoze1 year, 7 months ago
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Don't be so certain that it can't happen, Poulenc. Mixing strict Islamic codes of conduct (and/or Christian puritanical codes of conduct) with modern survellance and information technology seems to me to bear the possibility of being a perfect recipe for a return to repression.
Juxtapose Orwell's 1984 to 2084.
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Poulenc1 year, 7 months ago
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Women NEVER ask to be raped. Never.
The idea that in some cases men "can't help themselves" due to female (or even male) provocation is spurious.
When necessary, women in the military should know how to protect themselves from unwanted sexual attention, as women must outside of the service.
And the necessary apparatus should be in place to protect all people in service from exploitation or abuse by other service members.
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Jaydee401 year, 7 months ago
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So according to you the person who decides to drive to a party and drink then drives under the influence of alcohol trying to get home isn't responsible either?
We are all responsible for the positions we put ourself in, like it or not.
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Jaydee401 year, 7 months ago
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It was a perfect analogy and I'm right, it's the same as the girl who goes out drinking all night with a bunch of guys then acts surprised when one or all want sex. The best protection against rape is to not put yourself at increased risk. I remember reading a article where women in the military would routinely travel together and avoid being alone with groups of men to cut down on risks, this is just what I'm advocating. Why put yourself in a position where it could even happen at all?
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SpareChange1 year, 7 months ago
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This is just another reason to bring our troups home.
The military and their families are the only ones carrying the burdon.
We need to get them out of that insanity and TAKE CARE OF THEM when they get home - none of this republican cutting the VA nonsense.
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sumptuousdigs1 year, 7 months ago
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tkyrchncs ... that's the best post I've read on the topic.
How is it that we can explain away, or place blame on the victims, parents, teachers, lack of self control(bullshirt!), or just pine for the good old days?
Lawlessness, studied ignorance, shirking of duty, and shifting the blame, will ensure that the good old days will always be with us. Sure there are a lot of reasons for bad behavior, got a few of my own. Yet in the adult world, I couldn't help myself, or the devil made me do it, ain't gonna cut it.
Resistance to change is the greatest military tradition. Yet, change you must...or leave your stars on the table.
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Jaydee401 year, 7 months ago
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Sump, your never going to change mankind, there will always be rapes, the best protection is to be informed and honest about it. Being idealistic is of no help at all. If you wish to see the numbers drop in the military the direction must come from the top as with all things.
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caljr1 year, 7 months ago
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There can be no excuse for the conduct or for inaction on the part of the military. Soldiers, male and female, must be treated -- and treat one another -- with respect. One caution. The article suggests a critical issue that needs immediate, official action, but it cannot be used as a brush with which to paint a negative image of all soldiers. In any population there are those who will victimize others. Contrary to what this article suggests, I believe the proportion of predators in the armed services is probably lower than in the general population. The vast majority of soldiers are honorable people who understand the importance of treating people with dignity and respect. This is a problem of leadership failing to hold the bad apples accountable and sending a clear message that this kind of conduct will not be tolerated.
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lvrofwolves1 year, 7 months ago
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and still women that are covered from head to toe are raped...no advertising needed. I might be wrong but I don't think women who advertise it are raped as much as women who don't.
As far as 'advertising, flaunting and teasing' for morale purposes that sort of thing should be eliminated, but even if they do advertise etc...nobody deserves to be raped for any reason. There is no such a thing as 'asking for it' if it's truly rape.
This was in response to Jaydee40 about not advertising what's not on a menu..how it got way up here above his comment??? don't know!
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sumptuousdigs1 year, 7 months ago
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No, you're wrongo boyo! ...and I don't know about all of your ancestors, but some of mine were wrong about a lot of things. If it ain't available, then why put it on the menu? Are you in a restaurant? A store? Who's paying? Grandmother's advice is good, but not an excuse for others to act like pigs.
Grow up dude, and start thinking wth your big head, instead of making excuses. If you like to dress like a horse, does everyone get to ride? I don't think so...but just in case we can...I ride bareback! LOL! Giddy-up Jaydee. Squeal like a pig!
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Jaydee401 year, 7 months ago
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I'm right and you know it, your just to idealistic to admit it. What good does it do for a young girl who's raped to have someone say that should never of happened? it's to late and not going to make her feel any better is it? Of course men should know better and be able to control themselves, but guess what, some don't or wont. Women will get raped and nothing you, I or anyone else does will stop that, now a woman who understands this can better protect herself than one who is idealistic thinking all men should and will behave like gentlemen. It's blind idealism like yours that puts more women at risk, I know that sounds harsh but it's true. It's not a question of it being right, just of who it's going to happen to next?
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Jaydee401 year, 7 months ago
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Sorry sumptuous but I live in the real world not lala land, sexual harassment is a daily event even in workplaces with zero tolerance. Again my wife who serves on many comities and councils has had to sit with both side of the scope at work with CRA, there's no getting rid of it, only dealing with it. While I commend your personal attitude you must admit not everyone is of the same mind, so the truth is while you and I may condemn it women will still need to deal with it daily. One way to deal with it or lessen the likelihood of it happening is to look to see is any action brought it on and to address them and that is what my point is.
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Ajierene1 year, 7 months ago
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There are a few issues that are not being addressed. The Army raping women, not the military. Meaning when my units and other units I have talked to were deployed, the vast majority of Air Force women who were rapes were raped by members of the Army. The Navy and Marines have very strict rules of conduct due to life on a boat or submarine.
BDU's do not a women look any more womanly than a man. They are bulky and leave a lot of room- which both makes them very comfortable and hides the figures of both men and women.
There are as many women, both inside and outside of the military that 'flaunt' or 'tease' as there are men.
It never ceases to amaze me that men are all upset about having to 'change how they talk' but are the first to get upset when women want to discuss menstruation, menopause, sex, men and other things infront of men. Men talking about ejaculation, masturbation, dates and sex infront of women should be ok, though....
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Jaydee401 year, 7 months ago
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To funny,,,,,,,or access to them or a missile or two. In all honesty now I think the amount of courage these women must need to demand justice or even basic protection is huge. You do raise a honest point, has there been any cases of self protection or armed retaliation?
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joeblowe1 year, 7 months ago
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Jaydee401 year, 7 months ago
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I don't understand the NEG but anyway I think that will be the message from HQ but worded differently. It's my understanding that it doesn't happen under combat conditions but in the support areas so that negates their ability to use that excuse doesn't it?
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Dicax_Maximus1 year, 7 months ago
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J40 - I'm fairly sure that most male soldiers (in the middle of a firefight or taking incoming) would be just a tad more occupied in staying alive, than raping a woman !!
Of course it's not "under combat conditions", but the entire of Iraq is a "Combat Zone"......
So, I'd have to agree with JB's comment, all too likely !!!
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sumptuousdigs1 year, 7 months ago
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Rapes can occur at any opportunity. (That is, opportunity for the rapist, not the victim). On the other hand, there is documentation of people (internees) making love in Nazi death camps, under starvation conditions, and the prospect of immediate death. Let's not confuse the two. If Either party is not consenting, it is rape. No excuses!
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lvrofwolves1 year, 7 months ago
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I agree completely, there are ways to reduce risk for almost all crimes happening to someone. Reducing doesn't mean preventing, and just because someone still takes a risk, it doesn't mean they deserved it. A stripper wouldn't deserve it ,they have people to protect them because they are taking a bigger risk. If a female soldier was acting like a stripper, she wouldn't deserve it either. She should however be reprimanded, and she would be stupid not to think her behavior was making that risk much higher. But regardless of anything, nobody deserves to be raped, the military should make that loud and clear, and show they will not stand for that. Women are going to serve, yes there will be issues, but they should always be addressed and woman should feel safe, they won't always be safe, that's why they should know ways to reduce the risk. It's unfortunate, but it's reality.
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Jaydee401 year, 7 months ago
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exactly, Thank you. You ever notice how people get it into their heads your trying to say something other than what you said and no matter what you say they don't see it? Then someone else comes along and says the exact thing it is you were saying and they get it right away? That pi$$es me off.......lol
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lvrofwolves1 year, 7 months ago
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I can be somewhat dense at times myself, you know until that lightbulb clicks on lol! just remember it's usually not personal.
In almost ever situation we send our children out with knowledge that bad things can happen, so we try and teach them risk factors, safety measures..we do it for sports, we do it when sending our children out on their first date, when we travel,our health- almost everything in life has risk, no reason not to be preparred, it's a reality of life. If I leave my car unlocked with windows rolled down and the keys in the ignition-something bad may happen, it doesn't mean I deserve it or that the criminal isn't responsible for the crime. Regardless of how well one is prepared tho, bad things still can happen. Life is a risk! shouldn't prevent you from living, but take safety measures when you can.
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joeblowe1 year, 7 months ago
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"I don't understand the NEG" - I'm guessing:
A) Didn't read whole sentence and thought it was a serious response or
B) Couple of guys working in the pentagon with nothing to do but read Propeller posts.
As to the wheres and whens: Putting horny young men in close quarters with women? I'm all for women's lib and such, but I'm not 100% sure that quartering men and women together - or even NEAR each other - in a high stress situation is going to have satisfactory results. Self-control is one thing, but these are mostly young men and some are of questionable backgrounds.
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Ajierene1 year, 7 months ago
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The facts also need to be considered - where are the numbers?
Are they talking about women compared to men in the same jobs in the military or overall? There are far fewer women in combat roles than men. Women are still not allowed to be pararescue, SEALS, or other 'front line' type jobs. This changes the views - are we talking in a month, 2 women are killed and 4 are raped? Out of thousands of women in the military and over there, these numbers are small.
Something else to consider is something my brother talked about - when he was leading troops in Iraq, the men were the problem, ignorant men with outdated thoughts - mostly from those scoring lower on the ASVAB. Rape would not be tolerated at all in my brother's unit-how much higher ranking personnel tolerate this or ignore it will determine how much it happens.
Sex is 'allowed' while in Iraq - kind of a 'don't fornicate, here's condom' thing.
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Ajierene1 year, 7 months ago
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If you are being sarcastic to show disbelieve - I need to expand. Limited character use insisted on shorter sentences.
Generally speaking, lower IQ's are linked to less cultural awareness. People with less outside influence and are more likely to see life with blinders on, so to speak.
So it is really the culture of the lower standards that is effecting different jobs.
There is culture to consider, and any high ranking person that sweeps misconduct under the rug is saying it is OK. This is something that is noted in my brother's unit - any misconduct that resulted in injury was strictly forbidden and the iron fist of my brother came down. He was well respected in that unit (he just moved to a different one), which helped - along with evidence state-side of his wrath. People did not cross him both because they respected him and because they knew he would 'make good on his threats' so to speak.
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Jaydee401 year, 7 months ago
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Culture, education, or wealth doesn't transfer to morals, the rich educated can be equally unmoral as anyone so I disagree with you. The simple fact armies have killed, raped, and pillaged for thousands of years. When they have good commanding officers the numbers are lower, when command gets weak and moral drops crimes increase, no further analysis needed. No woman service personnel is out there causing it so why blame serving women? But the fact remains when the risk is high it's up to women to protect themselves more until command gets things under control.
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lvrofwolves1 year, 7 months ago
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I agree with your statement,culture, education and wealth does not = morals
But for the part of it's up to the women to protect herself, that is sometimes very difficult if not at times impossible. And you shouldn't have to think or worry about defending yourself against your own fellow service people.
I have a friend who was raped when she was in the army, this was almost 30yrs ago, she was actually reprimanded (sp?) for calling out an officer,and really put through the ringer for it, eventually she won her case, but she said if she had to do it all over again she would have just kept her mouth shut..I wonder how many do?
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Jaydee401 year, 7 months ago
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I think the problem is we deny what we know to be true because we don't like what it says. Rape will always be around, there is no way to get ride of it. It's a flaw in mankind that's not going to go away. The Army is all about force and violence so the rates of rape should be higher in the armed services. These men are not Knights on shinny white horses, their not modern day heroes, they are people called to do a job, a dirty ungrateful job that has few benefits. They can be killed at any time when in theater and they know that and some times decisions are not made with clear thinking and people get hurt. It's not pretty is it?
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lvrofwolves1 year, 7 months ago
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My bottom line is you should be able to depend on those you are serving with,your life may depend on them someday. I'd like to be able to expect good conduct from everyone both male and female. whatever happened to the military demanding respect, obediance etc...from the soldiers? or is it that it just looks that way to civilians? I understand they are all human,they are there to do a job..doesn't seem they can handle it if there are so many rape cases going on. Why the rape crimes so high there? there must be aditional reasons don't you think?
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Jaydee401 year, 7 months ago
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In my honest opinion the military is in chaos, troops are being pushed to deeper dept s of depression and despair than any time in history. Support for combat in Iraq is low at home and among the troops as they don't see competent leadership in many levels. Now most cases seem to be not at unit levels but in recruits and sorry for the pun, but in the rear areas. So it's not a case of with people who you count on daily, that respect I think or hope is intact. One thing I think plays a part is with troops being deployed contrary to past practices, in other words unfit for combat or repeatedly, that they have a feeling of being powerless. Not a good feeling for people who's lives depend on showing power and force. So I think much of it is acting out because of feeling powerless, not pretty but thats what I think. For the guy bordering on mental collapse women look like easy targets, sadly some are. Now for the record it's wrong and need prosecution to the full extent of the law
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Jaydee401 year, 7 months ago
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You know putting some one in prison after the fact is only a small victory, stopping it before it happens is big. Understanding why and what steps could have been taken so it never happened is so important but we put so little energy into it..
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lamorena071 year, 7 months ago
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i agree with HannibalBarca. There are places that women shouldnt be. i dont know why they changed it, but back in the day, women weren't allowed to serve in the military, for fear that they would distract the male soldiers. someone was thinkin smart then. alot of these men are away frm there wifes, going crazy and sexually frustrated im sure, it doesnt give them the right to rape someone, but its just like if you were to put a hot homecooked meal in front of a group of STARVING men, just because you said they cant eat it, that isnt going to take away that strong hunger they have, They're starving, they're going to eat it. Women are like that meal to a man and when they are starving for the feel, touch, smell of one, that hunger becomes so strong they cant resist. They end up doing something that im sure they'll later regret.
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Ajierene1 year, 7 months ago
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Some issues with these statements:
Women can be just as sexually frustrated as men - this is not gender specific, but individual specific.
You cannot equate food with sex. Food is required for survival, sex is not. It is comparing apples and oranges.
Women distracting men is not the women's fault and basically this line of logic is punishing the women for male weakness.
Put any woman in my unit next to her ideal (physically speaking) man and set them to a task - the task will be accomplished. If she is all google eyed at the man and does not accomplish the task, she is punished - not the man.
In the logic of 'women shouldn't be in some specific job because they distract the man', women are punished by being restricted to specific jobs because men do not have the cognitive capability to function in the presence of women.
Perhaps men just need to learn to not be so weak.
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Poulenc1 year, 7 months ago
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Jaydee, I believe you're drawing a false analogy. How does being responsible for being intoxicated while driving equate with being responsible for being raped?
Responsibility, in the larger sense, for oneself is a given. Being responsible for sexual assault committed upon oneself, which is a criminal act punishable by law, is quite another.
What you're implying is that by dint of being sexually attractive to another, you implicate yourself in your own rape, if it occurs. Even if you WERE provocative, does that make you responsible in any measure for being raped? (I know: sexual fulfillment in whatever form is a man's prerogative, something to which he's chromosomally entitled.)
To put it another way, should one wear a burka in situations of possible sexual interest? (Come to think of it, a good percentage of the world's population thinks you SHOULD.)
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Jaydee401 year, 7 months ago
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DeadXXXManXXXTalkin1 year, 7 months ago
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make it another crime besides rape
a man gets mugged at 2:30am wearing expensive clothes
could you imagine someone inferring he was in any way culpable for the crime?
could you imagine an attorney saying, 'you knew it was a bad neighborhood, and you knew it was late,and you knew your nice clothes advertised your wealth. You put yourself in that position. And why did you do that sir? What did you expect would happen?'
none of that is at issue
the behavior of the victim is not the issue, the crime is
the only part a victim plays is the part of the victim
no one made that robber rob, and no one makes a rapist rape
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Jaydee401 year, 7 months ago
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Those are all things said all the time, person gets mugged at 2:00 am and one of the first questions is what were you doing out at that time? Go into a bad area and get your car stolen the first question your insurance agent asks is what were you doing there in the the first place? I know it's not popular but if we are not responsible for our own safety then who is?
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DeadXXXManXXXTalkin1 year, 7 months ago
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you are mixing two different things
I won't try to change your mind
that's up to you
Now you are mixing in personal responsibility by saying 'if we are not responsible for our safety who is?'
responsibility? rights?
how bout the criminal having 'personal responsibility' for controlling his behavior?
how about people having the right not to be made victims of those criminals even if they act foolishly?
this whole line of argument you've been using sounds like someone saying, 'well, if you didn't want the money stolen, why did you leave it on your coffee table? why didn't you chain your lawn mower up? why did you leave your car running?
It's pretty simple. You're a smart cookie-if you don't get it it's because you don't want it.
That's fine, but I can't explain it any better than I have.
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sumptuousdigs1 year, 7 months ago
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Mugged? Auto theft? The answer to those questions are: "None of your G-damned business!". Now for the rhetoric...it's obvious that as long as people display attitudes like those that you're espousing, NO ONE WILL EVER BE SAFE. Sorry I shouted, but I don't think you get it. It's about time little boys grow up and quit making excuses, Jaydee.
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Jaydee401 year, 7 months ago
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The truth is you are NEVER SAFE, SAFETY IS AN ELUSION. Understand that and let it sink in, you can be killed at any time or raped at any time, yes men get raped too. There is no safe society and you are your own best tool to protect your self. Wake up and see the truth.....
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injest1 year, 7 months ago
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"Go into a bad area and get your car stolen the first question your insurance agent asks is what were you doing there in the the first place?"
They ask "what were you doing there in the the first place?" because their not allowed to ask "are you really that Fu** stupid?
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sumptuousdigs1 year, 7 months ago
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"The simple fact is...". Wow! Welcome to Jaydee's world. Being attractive, acting a bit flirtatious is askin'fer it, eh tater haid? What is it, aiding and abetting? The wheel man? Just what part? You can't name it, can you? Show me the law on the books. You are talking out your tailpipe.
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DeadXXXManXXXTalkin1 year, 7 months ago
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In all fairness, that might be a bit harsh.
What may be going on is a conflation of two different things: criminal responsibility, and risky behavior
Risky behavior seems to point a finger at the victim engaged in such behavior that leaves them open for a crime
But any time you point a finger at the victim's behavior and say 'the whole thing woulda never happened if they hadn't...', you can just stop right there and say if the criminal hadn't done what he or she had done, we wouldn't be having this discussion...'
so it's bad logic that stands on its own head
It's certainly OK to say or recommend that women are careful about who they hang with and how they behave, but that's BEFORE any crime is committed, afterward it has to be all about the crime
I'm willing to think 'playing a part' as in responsibility was a poor choice of words by jaydee and give him the benefit of the doubt and being guilty of the lesser crime of conflation as opposed to victim-blaming, which is mondo-uncool
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Jaydee401 year, 7 months ago
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Finally someone who gets it,,,,,,,,,,,,,THANK YOU. After the rape is committed nothing helps the victim feel like it never happened, it's to late so the goal is to not let it happen. We must accept that there are rapists out there as they are in fact out there so the thing is to make decisions with that fact in mind. You can say if you never would of but what good is that going to do except maybe not do it again, it will eat you alive so why should somebody else say it to you is my opinion.
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Ajierene1 year, 7 months ago
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There was also a study on Israeli soldiers, showing that generally speaking, men would sacrafice the mission if a woman's life might be in jeopardy, but female soldiers did not reciprocate.
These kinds of studies show that men see women differently much more so than women see men differently. Women do not care is men become nurses, flight attendants, wait staff, administrative assistance; don't care if men start cleaning and cooking - jobs and positions traditionally assigned to women in the US.
On the other hand, a woman wanting to fight along side men, be an executive, work in computer science, take out the trash and mow the lawn, not want to cook or clean - these meet much more resistance from men.
Rape is about power - usually the result of a man being rejected by a woman or women; or feeling threatened because she is in his job position.
When I worked retail, I often heard the comment 'no, I need a MAN to help me..this is heavy, or women don't know about flooring.'
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annoDomini1 year, 7 months ago
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It's a good question, but the answer really is, if we are being realistic, for many people: NO. By the way, this is not some new human condition. It has already been noted in this discussion stream that if you encamp a large number of men for a long time, they will simply not be able to not have sex. The larger the number of people you collect, the greater the number of people you will have who cannot exercise self-control. The longer you keep the group in isolation, the more difficult it will be for all of them to exercise self-control.
This behavior is also not limited to males, but, on average, it is more difficult for men than for women to exercise sexual self-control.
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Ajierene1 year, 7 months ago
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The first problem with this is that the men involved are just as often not in 'isolation' and there are plenty of promiscuous women in the army willing to help men 'take the edge off'.
Also, by saying it is more difficult for men to exercise self control is excusing the behavior and implying genetically somehow men cannot control themselves. This is a completely false statement that is proven false by the amount of men that deploy and do exercise self control.
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Poulenc1 year, 7 months ago
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To examine one's attitudes toward women and rape, it's useful to do a little figurative gender-switching.
If a man rapes another man, is the raped man "asking for it"?
Before you say it's not the same thing as man-with-woman rape because men are equally strong, and therefore (theoretically) better able to defend themselves than woman, take into account the number of male-male rapes that occur in prisons...or, for that matter, the fact that military women are TRAINED to defend themselves...
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Jaydee401 year, 7 months ago
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It all comes down to the fact that one person whether male or female is better able to exert their will on the other. It's the same with male on male rape. Now I think men would be less likely to think a man would rape them if women were around but in prison men tend to try and watch each others backs, I'm sure women in the military do this as well.
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lamorena071 year, 7 months ago
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i disagree, i dont think it is about all about power, ive been raped. the man that did it, was in love with me. he wasnt seeking power, he thought by doing that to me that i was going to love the way it felt and inturn fall inlove with him. there are places women shouldnt be, for the simple fact that humans are not perfect, we will fall, doesnt give you a license to sin, but doesnt mean that you won't either. there are people in this world that dont think right, just because you do doesnt mean others do too. especially people in the military. i have cousins in the military that tell me of so many soldiers that go crazy in the military from being in combat and seeing what they see. man/women raping another man/women, there are a wide range of reasons why they would commit that crime, but putting yourself in a situation where that is bound to happen, thats foolish to expect that nothing will.
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annoDomini1 year, 7 months ago
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Even one rape within our military is bad. Thousands of rapes is a terrible statistic and implies a serious systemic failure.
We shouldn't be surprised by this. In the military, the powerful have always preyed on the weak at all levels. Historically, that subjugation was realized as hazing and physical assault. When women were brought into the military, it became realized as sexual assault/rape. That doesn't mean that women are responsible for being raped; it is simply a reality that nearly all men will not rape another man to show their dominance, but many men will rape a woman to show dominance.
Is it any wonder that conservative clerics in the middle east cannot abide being "liberated" by the US, knowing what the standards are for US behavior and justice?
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SPEAKOUT1 year, 7 months ago
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I agree with all who say rape is wrong. But, from what I,ve seen with my own eyes; most young men enter the armed forces as clean cut morally good. Being in combat changes the way most men think or don't think.
We are going to have many more problems in the future that will have been caused by being in IRAQ.
Question number one, when did this really become a problem?
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annoDomini1 year, 7 months ago
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This article claims that justice has failed more in the military than in US society at large and presents some numbers, but it appears to me that the numbers are non-equivalent. The military imposes different justice than civilian courts. In the military, there are more options for penalties outside of courts that are not available in civilian situations, specifically because of the military hierarchical power structure. That structure also imposes coercion on both complainants and the accused.
In the article, it is claimed that in civilian cases, approx 28% of complaints are prosecuted, while in the military only 8% of complaints result in courts martial. Unfortunately, the article provides the stats for rape in the civilian cases and all sexual assault in the military cases and then shows that approx 20% of the military cases were punished with no court activity.
Our civilian record for convicting rapists is not so great after all...
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nshootinstar1431 year, 7 months ago
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Unfortunately i have to say that from everything that has been in the news i'm not completely surprised by this fact. After all from my personal experience a rapist isn't just a civilian, it can be a officer, military person, or any kind of emergency personel worker, a rapist could also be a female which is one thing you never hear about, because some men are very proud and will end up being very embarrassed if it happened to them. You never know with military men as proud as they are one of them themselves could be a rape victim. My point is it's not just woman who are rape victims, although i do feel their pain.
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cwebefree1 year, 7 months ago
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Wow,
Kinda scary reading some of this stuff.
So much dehumanisation towards immigrants, Po' folks, the underprivileged and rural citizens from both the left and the right.
Now what I remember always hearing is that these men and women do "what they are trained to do".
It would seem obvious, well beyond race/class baiting, that the US military has been a bit remiss in some of the training which our soldiers receive. Should it not be apparent that, perhaps, the style of training used to teach our soldiers to not behave in such a reprehensible matter is faulty?
Maybe not enough, maybe lacking in emphasis?
Do we want the world to think we behave this way?
Do we want our brave sons and daughters to be viewed as barbarians?
Do we want our sisters, daughters, wives to be treated so horrifically?
This is, by definition, a failure of command. It needs to be addressed.
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Mdiar1 year, 7 months ago
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Nah, sorry THOMNH62... I had an uncle in the air force and I'm hardly a liberal in the sense that you use it. I'm actually a registered Republican and possibly more conservative then you. All, or even a majority, are not gang members, certainly. However with the relaxing of standards more and more are slipping through into the military. This war has stretched the military thin and I don't fault Bush or the military for the actual lowering of the standards. Sometimes it is necessary to do so. However I do hold Bush and, from what I can tell Clinton, at fault for the military being at the point it is now. Clinton cut it to the bone I believe and Bush got us into a war. That led to the conditions in which standards are lowered. I believe I saw something in the history channel about it not to long ago, an episode of "Gangland" I believe. Are they liberal as well?
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Mdiar1 year, 7 months ago
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http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/07/28/eveni...
Might help you see what I'm saying, I can do more. Life is how it is and during war time we either lower the standards or draft people. But I don't really think this war is necessary. I'm not trying to just blame Bush... Congress and Clinton each contributed and others that I'm unaware of at the moment probably did as well.
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MightyAphrodity1 year, 7 months ago
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I wish I could say i was surprised. Of course this is happening, it a "society" built on the idea that you adhere to what i say and want and if you don't I'll dehumanize you so I can look at myself in the mirror after I've killed you, etc.
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bluenote15221 year, 7 months ago
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mdiar, Bush got us into war along with congress. How did Bush in 6 months in office deplete our military? Are you recommending a draft to upgrade your standard of who is qualified to serve?
Anyway, back to the point. Women in combat areas is not a good idea. Men do not act the same when women are around them in many respects. Am I really opening anybody's eyes here? This is what liberalism produces. A bad idea with a wishful utopian outcome. Not gonna happen. Just the way it is.
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Mdiar1 year, 7 months ago
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Yes... he did get us into war with Congress. Bush didn't deplete it in six months. Clinton played his part in this whole fiasco as well unless I'm terribly mistaken. Actions have consequences and I think Clinton, Bush and congress all really failed to see the consequences. I don't recommend a draft. I recommend a withdrawal over a time period of a few years. Frankly I don't think we should have gone in. I'm not somebody who blames Bush... I think he made some mistakes, but he's only human. Saddam was bluffing and Bush called the bluff to the detriment of pretty much everyone.
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joeblowe1 year, 7 months ago
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To me it seems nearly unbelievable that if there are rapes occurring - regardless of the frequency - and are BEING REPORTED and investigated, that there aren't courts martial involved. Evidence could surely be collected just as it would be in a civilian situation. If something like this is reported and NOT followed up on, I'd have to guess there is basis for a severe lawsuit. Getting shot in a combat zone - OK, they signed up for that, but getting RAPED? By one of their own? I don't see how they could possibly sell the idea that anyone signed up for that.
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injest1 year, 7 months ago
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Joeblow
"To me it seems nearly unbelievable that if there are rapes occurring - regardless of the frequency - and are BEING REPORTED and investigated, that there aren't courts martial involved."
Yep rape in the military can carry a life sentence in war time execution (And yes its been done)
But how unbelievable is this story for Aprils fools day April 1 ?
Hey that's today!
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HabibTheRepublican1 year, 7 months ago
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I flat out do not believe this. Not after being told a thousand times that our current military is the best trained, best educated and all-around best we've ever had - making even the 'Greatest Generation' look like complete incompetents...
Now, when I was in the Navy I did meet a bunch of waves who - given a bit of the booze we were all drinking - ahem, shall we say, were easy; liking their sex as much as the guys.
If they are later, calling this rape - well, first of all - what a load of politically correct crapola, and second - bite me...there was no real NEED to be raping anyone - and if you had, their friends would have soon taken care of you!...
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jmopinion1 year, 7 months ago
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http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=...
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SEI-1 year, 7 months ago
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I certainly hope this is not true.
One of the problems I have with it of course is the one 'party line' who automatically discounts it. Causes a person to think twice about the denial.
"...I think thou does protest too much"
peace~
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canadianrancher571 year, 7 months ago
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I read this story early this morning and found it very hard to come up with any comment that would make sense, but now after reading all the comments I know that the situation will never change so maybe the job description should specify that the chances of being raped with no punishment to the offenders be included, sad but that seems the only option in this case.
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sumptuousdigs1 year, 7 months ago
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Now this idealist has lived in some mean cities all of his life, and has a little street savvy. I also share that knowledge with any visitors. Ask around, I can be annoying about it. Never, ever, do I have the mind set that a victim did anything wrong...or played a part. Crime prevention does not address how we deal with sociopaths.
Regarding victim assistance, your 'bedside manner' I consider atrocious.
I'm visiting Pee Wee Eye soon. Are you going to fortify your house and stay inside? Reading your posts on other topics, one would get the impression that American men are blood thirsty shooters. Best not take any chances, right?
I'm certainly not that kind of person, but if you ever come to the states, you'll be packin' right? If not, you'd be a hypocrit. You deviate from your own position when it comes to gun control. The pro guns say it's for protection. Jaydee, what do youn say?
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Jaydee401 year, 7 months ago
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I say people like you are why numbers are higher, the "it's not right so it can't be" mentality does nothing to help. My mentality is don't put yourself at risk and the chances of it happening are less. The best victim assistance it to ensure women understand what increases the chances of being raped and are mindful of the things they do daily. You sound like you just wish them luck and send them on their way, hardly helpful in todays world is it? As for my position on gun laws or gun control how am I a hypocrite? Show me please. I always wondered how you felt about my criticism of the US but I guess now we know don't we, right no matter what is it?
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Jaydee401 year, 7 months ago
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"Crime prevention does not address how we deal with sociopaths."
Don't you think that's part of the problem? Addressing it after seems falling short to me but then again I expect more from my police and government than you seem to south of the border. To say victims had no part to play in their assault is wrong, to say they are to blame is more wrong and I never said it.
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sumptuousdigs1 year, 7 months ago
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How idiotic! I referred to sharing street knowledge. I guess I should be more specific, but I won't. Let's just say that around here, I'm known as the "Crown of Security". No one is playing parts, (aside from the little drama fantasy being acted out by the perp on their victim),
I do caution women, children, and newbies about preventive moves, and heads up awareness. But you don't tell a fresh victim they "played a part"...when they were exercising their rights. And you don't reinforce perception that a rapist would behave otherwise. Tou've made a lot of statements on this thread that are grounded in opinion.
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sumptuousdigs1 year, 7 months ago
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Now guns. Come on down to Texas, Jaydee, everybody's packin'. Some are strapped and balanced. It's my right not to carry if I like. Perhaps I should, just for protection. I'm still waiting. What would you do? I don't think you'd pack the heat. I think you'd stay home. Avoid danger, and give up your right. It's the safe thing to do. Don't you see how you think women should just stay in their place. Show the studies on complicit rape victims. Your argument sounds like you think they (for the most part) ask for it.
Commit the crime, do the punishment. Period. Or just tell everyone not to live life, execise therir freedoms, because it might incite the bad guys. How Victorian!! LOL!
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sumptuousdigs1 year, 7 months ago
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It's not about your position on guns. It's about the popular opinion in the U S that citizens need guns for protection, would you carry if you had urgent business in the states? Or would you forego your business, and stay home...safe and sound.
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sumptuousdigs1 year, 7 months ago
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I take your criticism as heartfelt criticism...sometimes harsh, but always well meaning. My criticism of some of your comments is because when expectations change, societies change. All the baddies don't go away, but they do find it harder to get away with it. I look to Canada as a stearling example of a free, tolerant, yet very civil society...something to do with expectations I suspect. No hard feelings, eh, tater haid?
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Jaydee401 year, 7 months ago
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If your asking if I would carry if in the US then the answer is no I would not and have not. But here again I was only in familiar areas and with family that is from there. Now in honesty if I had to live in the US I would own a gun, frankly I have no faith in law enforcement and the government to protect me unlike here, not meant to be a dig just the honesty you asked for and deserve.
That caution you referred to is the point I was trying to make, women must exercise it or face the increased risk. That doesn't mean I think they asked for it and I never said that. Women just need to realize that they are in more control than they realize of their own life.
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Jaydee401 year, 7 months ago
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You see I have a problem with that, every life is the exclusive property of that person and they have the right to do with it, or not do with it as the case may be, as they see fit. Your country whatever it may be does not have the right to dictate if and when you must give it up unless you have taken the life of another. In short for the people who like things clear if I were in the military and I was ordered to do something I didn't agree with, and I don't mean peel potatoes, it would be F You. Same if my country had a draft and said I had to go, not charming likely if I didn't see there was a real threat to it. I think people need to stand up to their officers more. Gen MacArthur once said he was more famous for the order he didn't follow than the ones he did. But back to the story at hand I don't think the Brass is in control and that's why there are so many rapes, and it starts at the top.
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sumptuousdigs1 year, 7 months ago
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My position is a 'shade' different than Jaydee's I believe. While being forewarned and forearmed is certainly prudent and well advised, no onus for a crime should be placed on someone acting lawfully. Rapists don't need an excuse, just the opportunity. Once people start thinking in terms of erradicating those opportunities, whole communties will be much safer.
I get the suspiscion from some comments, that women should stay in their place. That very well may be an archaic idea who's time has past. I think some conrol issues may be evident. Certainly some cannot control their urges. These are not manly urges, for they are not men. I'm not for cutting lessthanhuman beings any slack.
Every citizen of the United States, and Canada (for that matter), that passes age and physical requirements, has the opportunity to serve their country. Retbeg said a war zone is no place for a women. I heartily agree. A war zone is no place for anybody.
My position on guns? No one should have one, except me!
LOL!
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