Comments for Beijing to hold talks with Dalai Lama's envoys »
Posted By Alexia 1 year, 7 months ago in NewsUnder increasing pressure from Europe and elsewhere, the Chinese government announced Friday that it would meet with envoys of the Dalai Lama, an unexpected shift that comes as Tibetan unrest in western China has threatened to cast a pall over the Olympic Games in August.
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MacBookForMe1 year, 7 months ago
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skeek1 year, 7 months ago
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Some facts you should know.
1. Tibet has been part of China for 800 years.
2. China has never relinquished sovereignty of Tibet.
3. Tibetans lived as slaves under the Dalai Lamas.
4. The Dalai Lama is on the CIA payroll. Google it.
5. Pro-Tibetan Groups are also CIA funded, eg. Reporters Without Borders.
6. China has always been open to talks with the Dalai Lama.
Here's an example.
Wednesday, December 06, 2000
China still 'ready' for talks with Dalai Lama
BEIJING, DEC.5. China today said its channels of communication with the Dalai Lama remained open but refused to make any concession for restarting negotiations to end the Tibet impasse.
http://www.hinduonnet.com/2000/12/06/stories/03...
If you are so sincere and earnest about returning land to its rightful owners perhaps you should set the example and pack up out of the stolen land you live in - the United States of America.
Didn't think so.
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HanymanComment removed: Retracted by user43 Replies
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oldgringo1 year, 7 months ago
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hey skeek...I was sitting here, sipping a Margarita, and just for ******s and giggles I Googled "a history of slavery in China". Dude, get a grip. We Americans are pikers compared to China.
"Slavery has a history dating back to the Shang dynasty in China (18th -12th century BC). About 5% of China's population was enslaved. The way they were generated there in China was the same everywhere else slavery had reached. With slave raiding, sale of insolvent debtors and capture in war. In China the selling and buying of women and children was allowed to repay debts. China didn't actually develop into a slave society but slavery moved on to other places such as Korea, India, and Asia. Slaves were used in Mesoamerica as porters in the absence of animals. And some were eaten by the social elite. Then on to England, Scandinavia, Russia, and Islamic societies, slavery traveled.
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oldgringo1 year, 7 months ago
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And the there's this, examples of salvery in China TODAY.
http://granitestudio.blogspot.com/2007/06/slave...
And I found more describing the Chinese people selling their countrymen all over the world! Take a few hours to read it all and get back to me!
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skeek1 year, 7 months ago
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You can't be serious. You are citing examples of slavery in China from the 18th century BC? And 5% of the population at that?
Oldgringo, the ancient Greeks only first developed democracy as a political theory well after that, in about the 4th century BC. The fact is, oldgrino, that in the 18th century BC, slavery was the standard in most so-called civilisations of that time. Is this what you call intellectual integrity?
Please, keep in mind too, that your country was built on slavery just a few short centuries ago. It will help with maintaining historical and chronological perspective.
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skeek1 year, 7 months ago
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As for your link to an anonymous blogspot, the story refers to unscrupulous labour agents and does not cite this as government policy. It makes mention of the corruption of civilian authorities turning a blind eye but again, it does not cite this as government policy. You do understand what is meant by government policy don't you? Slavery was government policy under the Dalai Lamas.
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Mdiar1 year, 7 months ago
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"country built on slavery"
Your point? The economy of the UK was built on slavery as well, do you wish to attack them for this as well?
Fact: Slavery was an accepted practice in some form or another throughout almost all of human existence. Even nations that actually outlawed the practice before the United States did not always enforce these laws.
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skeek1 year, 7 months ago
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No argument here. The British Empire for centuries turned slaves into the world's most sought after commodity prior to the Industrial Revolution and the need for oil. But that empire is a spent force and it is now only your country's sidekick, a mere shadow of its former self. Why should I talk about Robin when I can address Batman? I raised this point because many here will state all kinds of reasons for America's success but avoid the obvious, such as slavery. I can, however, see why such a distasteful reason should be ignored and far more heroic and mythological possibilities repeated ad nauseum.
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LARK1 year, 7 months ago
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Slavery existed in various parts of the world. Does this make it acceptable now? No. It's a matter of time and the stage of evolution and civilization in human history. In modern civilized society, slavery is no longer acceptable.
But, Tibetans were slaves under Dalai Lamas at the same time when slavery was not acceptable in the civilized world. And, it's ironic and hypocritical to support the very person who had practiced slavery before he was stopped from doing so, the very person who now feigns holiness. Come on, this is sick!
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oldgringo1 year, 7 months ago
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"Oldgringo, the ancient Greeks only first developed democracy as a political theory well after that, in about the 4th century BC. The fact is, oldgrino, that in the 18th century BC, slavery was the standard in most so-called civilisations of that time. Is this what you call intellectual integrity?"
No different than you using slavery in the US, or the incident in which three officers,(two were black)were found innocent of gunning down an unarmed black man, to prove the US is an evil empire. If you weren't so rabidly anti-American, if your generalizations weren't so utterly
hypocritical, your posts might carry more weight.
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oldgringo1 year, 7 months ago
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"It is a standard ploy that your country has used repeatedly against Russia, Communism, the Middle East, Islam, and now China."
See, skeek, it's these kind of statements that crack me up. You re-write history. The cold war was Americas fault. Russia didn't really take over Eastern Europe after WWII. Korea, Viet Nam, Cambodia...no Chinese invovement there! It's all just a mad plot for us evil Americans to dominate the world. lol
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ETproductions1 year, 7 months ago
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LARK1 year, 7 months ago
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Hey, do you want Tibet for your goodself to be king there? The Dalai Lama does not want it! He says Tibet is part of China, even he said that! He didn't say it at the beginning of the riots; he said that only after he had lobbied for support and failed to garner enough for him to be king, just support for causing trouble. He denied being connected to the rioters, but he indicated downright refusal to advise the people to stop killing and wounding innocent people while he was supporting Tibet independence which was at least a taciturn support for actions of the rioters. Now he wants to keep clear of those responsible for the riots. Why didn't he do that at the beginning? If he were not part of them, he had FAILED IN HIS ROLE AS A SPIRITUAL LEADER. He had better keep his mouth shut, or give good advice for peace. Is a culture of rioting part of what he wants to preserve? What if every time some people want to preserve a historical building, they start rioting & claiming independence!
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ETproductions1 year, 7 months ago
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All this excuses China's invasion and occupation of a separate nation HOW?
Yeah, I know the US invasion and occupation of Iraq is the same thing. Don't even get me started on that. But at least I am willing to admit that it is a violation of international law.
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Mdiar1 year, 7 months ago
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The excuse is simple. China is larger, more powerful and thus is able to do so. China is just large enough that the rest of the world won't do anything about it, much like the United States invading Iraq. International law is a joke. It serves as a way for the powerful to wag a finger at the less powerful and look righteous while doing so.
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skeek1 year, 7 months ago
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The US invasion and occupation of Iraq could only be the same if Iraq has been an integral part of the US for the past 800 years, if China had destroyed Tibet's infrastructure rather than having built and maintained it, and if China was fighting a brutal and bloody guerilla war causing countless deaths, millions of displaced citizens and a flood of refugees. Otherwise there is no comparison.
Besides, Tibet is not and never has been a separate nation.
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ETproductions1 year, 7 months ago
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According to theological and historic record, Tibet has been a separate and often powerful nation state since before recorder history. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Tibet
Mao's invasion of Tibet in 1950 was bloody, produced its own flood of refugees. Sorry, I am not seeing the moral high ground you communist apologists seem to claim.
The issue now in Tibet is that the Chinese Communist government has undertaken a very deliberate program of resettlement to wipe out Tibetan culture by population infusion and assimilation.
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ETproductions1 year, 7 months ago
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Correction: The Above should begin, "According to archaeological and historical record, ..."
Seems I mangled my attempt at archaeological so badly my spell checker mistook it for theological, and substituted that without my noticing it.
Also, the end of that sentence suffered the same fate. "...before recorder history." was not meant to mean before the development of a particular woodwind instrument. I meant to write "...before recorded history."
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skeek1 year, 7 months ago
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Incidentally, prior to that date Tibet was not a nation. If there is anyone who actually founded the nation of Tibet with governance, statehood and territories it is the Mongol Emperor, Genghis Khan, who installed a leader of his choosing to do his bidding. Coincidentally and ironically, that leader was the first, living Dalai Lama. There were some others who were backdated and elevated to this newly created and titled position but they had already been long dead prior to receiving their titles. The Dalai Lamas have always been politicians first and foremost. Now, the Genghis Khan of the today, the USA, wishes to repeat history and reinstall a Dalai Lama to do its bidding.
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ETproductions1 year, 7 months ago
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Actually, other than the two countries closer proximity, the USA could make a similar argument. Iraq was conquered by our ally and progenitor, the British empire during WW1.
Tibet and China were conquered by the Mongol empire founded by Genghis Kahn.
Claiming that because nation state 1 and nation state 2 were both conquered by nation state 3, one belongs to the other conquered land is a flimsy stretch taken back to 1918, and even flimsier when pulled all the way back to 1354.
The entire world outside of China saw Mao Zedong ordering the Chinese army's bloody invasion of Tibet in 1950 as one nation state grabbing another sovereign state by military force. However superior the Chinese Communist Party thinks its rule may be to that of a living Buddha, they have no right asserting that superior idea on another land by force of arms.
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LARK1 year, 7 months ago
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You were ashamed of the way the native Americans were treated. But you don't think the native Americans should now declare independence from Britain and kick all others out, right? In this case, there's clearly an invasion in modern human history by people who now call themselves Americans. But Tibet has always been part of China, only that the Dalai Lama had taken advantge of China's troubled times to make himself more powerful and like king there. And, the U.S had taken advantage of that to cause trouble for China. And, there are people who have been indoctrinated and blinded and so have the gut to join the politicians of their country for victimization.
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skeek1 year, 7 months ago
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ETproductions "The entire world outside of China saw Mao Zedong ordering the Chinese army's bloody invasion of Tibet in 1950 as one nation state grabbing another sovereign state by military force. However superior the Chinese Communist Party thinks its rule may be to that of a living Buddha, they have no right asserting that superior idea on another land by force of arms."
This is the mythology but it is incorrect. Tibet was never a sovereign state, your very own links support this, yet you keep repeating it. As for the "bloody invasion" and the Dalai Lama being the "living Buddha" you are seriously off with the fairies. Read history, not hysterical fanatical propaganda.
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ETproductions1 year, 7 months ago
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Wrong. The history (not mine) shows that Tibet was a nation state on and off throughout history and had leaders and territorial sovereignty many times before the birth of Ghencis Kahn.
The fact that the Mongol Empire defeated both modern Tibet and the core area of modern China doesn't in any way make Tibet part of China, so your claim of 800 years of Chinese rule is ridiculous. The Tibetans regained territorial control numerous times after the demise of the Mongol empire and had many sovereign leaders. The end of that sovereignty started in 1950 with Mao's invasion, and ended in a pool of blood in 1959 when all attempts at reconciliation broke down. That's what the history actually shows.
Your twisting of facts and selective reading of history shows you to be a shill for the Chinese Communist leadership. Perhaps our CIA is attempting to help the Dalai Lama. If so, good for them. I hope that the talks at least allow the Tibetans to preserve their unique culture.
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skeek1 year, 6 months ago
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The history you say is not yours has no source. If you could at the very least do that you would establish some credibility. As for the CIA doing some good, when has that ever been the case?
I fully understand why you dismiss me as a shill as it requires no further critical thinking on your part that could just undermine your indoctrination. Your blinders are up as its too challenging to go beyond such comfort zones. When in doubt fall back on the propaganda you know. It's safer that way.
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LARK1 year, 7 months ago
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Comments on other articles such as hunger and rising prices of food clearly show some Americans' fear of the national debt and downturn of economy. There were comments such as whether the orange robes of monks would curb China's competitiveness.
The issue is all politics, don't try to shroud it in the names such as preservation of culture and other things.
Fear and evil wishes for trouble are sick. This is the result of indoctrination of the western press, with their purse strings pulled by powerful groups in the west that fight between themselves but stand together for common interest - the actions of some politicians in the west clearly indicate that. Such control of the press is even more powerful than direct control by the state; it makes the press the mouthpiece for the powerful.
And, it is a fact that France has FAILED to maintain order for an important global event - the Olympics.
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Mdiar1 year, 7 months ago
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I'm not an expert on Tibet by any means. My big "source" was Wikipedia on this issue and something I saw on the news not so long ago, pre protests of Olympics. My stance on this, in general, is to simply allow a free election to determine the future of Tibet.
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skeek1 year, 7 months ago
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This, I gather, would be the same call for free elections based on CIA interference and agitations and its funding of a political opportunist, the Dalai Lama, in addition to its funding of protest groups who perform on cue for the US-led Western media eager to see the demise of China.
Their eagerness comes because it not only feeds into the sensationalistic, overly simplistic stereotypes of China, irrational Western phobias held since childhood, but because it makes great headlines that pull strong ratings and subsequently the big budget advertising contracts, and also because their governments have long been plotting China's downfall.
There is no risk of offending anyone as Western media, governments, corporations and public opinion are all on the same page. It's a win win situation for everyone. Everyone except the scapegoat of course. That would be China, but then, that is the general idea after all. And as such they should have no say in the matter. Those 'free' elections?
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oldgringo1 year, 7 months ago
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Good morning, skeek. Last night I did as you suggested and kept searching for the true history of the Dalai Lamas and Tibet. I found this great article that supports everything you've been saying:
http://www.michaelparenti.org/Tibet.html
Quite an eyeopener.
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ETproductions1 year, 7 months ago
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Really just shows that Lamas are humans too, just as are all the other religious leaders, popes, self anointed prophets and other smoke and mirror peddlers of the world.
Where I balk is in supporting the Communist government's claim that their way is the superior way. Even if Tibetans want to worship a real Llama or an Alpaca, that's just fine with me.
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oldgringo1 year, 7 months ago
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"Where I balk is in supporting the Communist government's claim that their way is the superior way. Even if Tibetans want to worship a real Llama or an Alpaca, that's just fine with me." Best comment of the thread, ET. I agree completely. I'm not naive enough to give anyone a free pass.
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skeek1 year, 7 months ago
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Thanks oldgringo. ETproductions, you are obfuscating. My concern has been with revisionist history, and revisionist at a remarkably rapid pace at that, in an effort to demonise China. Regardless of what you may think of China and how you believe your country's foreign policy towards it should be determined, I'm not a believer in Machiavellian principles. It appears your government is, especially when it comes to China, if not most other things. The end does not justify the means. It is, at the very least, blatantly dishonest and immoral.
Furthermore I need to point out the hypocrisy of your words. The only government that broadcasts loudly and relentlessly to the entire world "that their way is the superior way" is yours -- the United States of America. However it not only broadcasts it, it imposes it. American values at the point of a gun, in your own hands or someone else's. To some on this thread this point is irrelevant, for reasons of "convenience."
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skeek1 year, 7 months ago
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ETproductions: "Where I balk is in supporting the Communist government's claim that their way is the superior way."
ETproductions, below is an excerpt from the link posted by oldgringo. Please tell me how this is not superior to what went before.
"Whatever wrongs and new oppressions introduced by the Chinese after 1959, they did abolish slavery and the Tibetan serfdom system of unpaid labor. They eliminated the many crushing taxes, started work projects, and greatly reduced unemployment and beggary. They established secular schools, thereby breaking the educational monopoly of the monasteries. And they constructed running water and electrical systems in Lhasa."
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skeek1 year, 7 months ago
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Also from the article.
"By 1961, Chinese occupation authorities expropriated the landed estates owned by lords and lamas. They distributed many thousands of acres to tenant farmers and landless peasants, reorganizing them into hundreds of communes.. Herds once owned by nobility were turned over to collectives of poor shepherds. Improvements were made in the breeding of livestock, and new varieties of vegetables and new strains of wheat and barley were introduced, along with irrigation improvements, all of which reportedly led to an increase in agrarian production."
This is what most of the world calls civilisation. China introduced it to Tibet. The Dalai Lamas did not; they had prevented it.
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