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Posted by: PapaWolf 1 year, 6 months ago
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PapaWolf1 year, 6 months ago
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Not to mention the US's total failure to even attempt to stop Israel from bombing Lebanon. That gave a not-too-popular fringe group - tho well-armed, I'll admit - increased popularity & power in an already divided country & region.
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newbie0420Comment removed: Hard Banned40 Replies
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PapaWolf1 year, 6 months ago
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What about Israel's failure to live up to its promise to release Lebanese prisoners.
And how do you justify the killing of around One THOUSAND INNOCENT CIVILIANS over the KIDNAPPING of 2 soldiers?
You claim we blame the US & Israel for everything, which is wrong; we only blame the US & Israel for what is their fault.
You, on the other hand, can not accept ANY blame whatsoever of the US. From a possible illegal, preemptive invasion of a helpless country, to torture, indefinite detention, illegal wire taps, lies, and on.
Or Israel (the GOVERNMENT, not the people, most of whom want peace): from its occupation of Palestinian land, to its incessant bombing of the West Bank & Gaza, to targeted assassinations, to destruction of private & public buildings, to indefinite imprisonment & breaking of treaties.
I can accept that some blame is on Lebanonese & Palestinians. Can you accept ANY blame of the US & Israel?
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newbie0420Comment removed: Hard Banned10 Replies
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PapaWolf1 year, 6 months ago
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But you ignore those firing HUNDREDS of rockets onto Palestinian land for every rocket fired onto Israeli land. Look at the death tolls on both sides. I've posted them numerous times but don't have them saved. You can google "Palestinian and Israeli casualties" or something like that. You'll see that, even with the indiscriminate rocket fire from Palestine, the casualty rate is somewhere around (depending on the particular time period) 3:1 to 150:1. In 1 stretch, there were about 3 or 4 Palestinian CHILDREN ALONE killed for every Israeli SOLDIER.
What would you do if you were on the receiving end of that? What would you do if your children were being shot & blown up by an occupying force?
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walden31 year, 6 months ago
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PapaWolf1 year, 6 months ago
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>>Do you wish that more Israelis were killed to even the score? I know most Palestinians do.
Way to read a bunch of Sht into something.
No, I do NOT want more Israelis killed. I, and MOST Palestinians, and any THINKING person, want LESS PEOPLE KILLED, PERIOD!!!! To even suggest that is barbaric; to me, your statement sounds like you don't believe enough Palestinians are being killed. Are you truly that much of a murderous, blood-thirsty barbarian?
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walden31 year, 6 months ago
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Listen, I like to be truthful. I like the truth.
"...and MOST Palestinians, and any THINKING person, want LESS PEOPLE KILLED..."
The why do Palestinians dance in the streets when Israelis are murdered? Hmmmm? Be honest.
"The attack prompted celebrations in Gaza where Palestinians took to the streets firing in the air and passing out candy. "
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/03/07/world...
"Palestinians in Gaza celebrated the double suicide attack in Dimona Monday by passing out flowers and candy, while giving praise to Allah. As news of the attacks spread, drivers honked horns and passersby laughed with joy. A Hamas spokesperson thanked Allah the attacks were successful, calling the bombings a 'glorious act.' Islamic Jihad took the same approach."
http://www.infolive.tv/en/infolive.tv-17566-isr...
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PapaWolf1 year, 6 months ago
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Good point.
The only thing I can say is it's like the cheerleading going on here during 'Shock & Awe' on just about every news channel. Or like the Israeli children writing messages on the bombs to be dropped on Lebanese civilians.
I don't agree with the celebrations, but I can understand it. After suffering constant bombardment from Israel, any attack would seem a good reason to celebrate. With Israel's tanks, planes & helicopters, it can strike anywhere in Gaza & the West Bank it wants. With their limited weaponry, the Palestinians can't strike inside Israel as easily. So a strike against their oppressor would be cause to celebrate.
Again, I don't agree, but I can understand it.
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walden31 year, 6 months ago
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I agree too. I'm not saying what I would or wouldn't do, because thank Dog I'm not in that situation, but I do understand.
Shock n' Awe made me sick.
Little Israeli kids writing on bombs makes me sick.
The use of cluster bombs in Lebanon makes me sick.
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PapaWolf1 year, 6 months ago
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>>thank Dog I'm not in that situation, but I do understand.
You got that right.
Along w/everything else in your post.
To paraphrase, "it's sickening" - and all so senseless.
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dissent1 year, 6 months ago
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Edmar141 year, 6 months ago
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Papa Wolf, do you actually believe what you are posting? Israel has an extensive civil defense system in place that protects its citizens from indiscriminate rocket attacks. The Palestinian authority has done absolutely nothing to protect the citizens which elected them. Hamas uses civilian neighborhoods to fire it's rockets into Israel. In the real world, that would make the civilians targets because the civilian neighborhoods are the areas where those firing the rockets can be located. When Germany fired it's V1 and V2 rockets into English cities, the British and Americans leveled Dresden to the ground. Real wars are fought in real battles and if civilians are used as human shields, they are going to get killed. Welcome to the reality of war. The US just recognized that fact in Sadr City this past week. It's easy to play armchair general when you are 6000 miles from the fighting. When Hamas starts caring about the children, the rockets will stop and the children will be fine.
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PapaWolf1 year, 6 months ago
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>>The Palestinian authority has done absolutely nothing to protect the citizens which elected them.
Simple answer: from day 1, Israel & the US refused any aid AND the moneys Israel OWES the Palestinians for revenues Israel collects & is supposed to turn over to the Palestinian gov't. How in God's name do you expect Hamas to operate when it has no money - NOT EVEN ITS OWN REVENUES - to pay for any type of gov't services?
>>When Hamas starts caring about the children, the rockets will stop and the children will be fine.
Look over some statistics over the past number of years. I've GOOGLEd this a few times & posted links, but you can do the same. Hamas rockets & bombings actually DECREASED over a few years. Israeli attacks, however INCREASED that same period.
So your assertion of the children's safety is pretty hollow when it's only a 1-sided cease fire.
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DropkickaLib1 year, 6 months ago
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How do you justify Hezbollah stationing rocket units in apartment buildings? When you use civilians as human shields, amazingly enough, some of them get killed.
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PapaWolf1 year, 6 months ago
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DropkickaLib1 year, 6 months ago
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You are spouting B.S. Hezbollah stationed units in urban areas with the goal of hiding behind the civilian population. Nevermind the fact that Hezbollah regularly shells civilian targets in Isreal.
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PapaWolf1 year, 6 months ago
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>>Hezbollah regularly shells civilian targets in Isreal
First, Hezbollah STOPPED shelling Israel after it pulled out of Southern Lebanon. Hezbollah didn't start firing rockets until 2 or 3 days into Israeli bombing of Lebanon.
And on the civilian casualties, look at the numbers. How many Israeli civilians were killed for every Lebanese civilian? Answer: NONE!!!!.
And look at the Palestinian civilians killed for every Israeli civilian. The number of Palestinian civilians for every Israeli is astronomical.
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DropkickaLib1 year, 6 months ago
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Has Hezbollah released the captive soldier? Right, their innocent victims. Don't worry, the rockets are still aimed at Isreali cities and Hezbollah still has bunkers in residential areas.
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PapaWolf1 year, 6 months ago
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Has Israel lived up to ITS end of the bargain when it left S. Lebanon some years ago? No. THAT'S why the soldiers were kidnapped. It's happened before; Hezbollah kidnaps a soldier & bargains for the release of women & children Israel SHOULD HAVE released years ago, then there's a prisoner swap. This last time, however, Israel decided to forgo the usual pleasantries & bomb the majority of Lebanon, including an oil refinery causing the worst oil spill in the Mediterranean's history.
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PapaWolf1 year, 6 months ago
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You're implying that any Lebanese citizen, including women & children, is a terror suspect for the simple fact that (s)he is Lebanese?
You racist little sht.
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Edmar141 year, 6 months ago
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I really don't think that's the question that you should be asking Papa. The only reason why Israeli casualties were minimal was because Israel is so used to having rockets fired into its cities and surrounding areas that it built an excellent civil defense system to protect its citizens. Had there been no system in place, Hezbollah's rockets would have indiscriminately killed thousands of Israelis. Israel in comparison tried to minimize Lebonese casualties when the Lebonese had absolutely no civil defense system anywhere in the country. 900 civilians were killed in Lebanon and such is the price of war. Hezbollah fired its rockets into Israeli cities with the hope that they would kill as many Israeli civilians as possible. That's a fact that every agency in the world recognized. And the rockets had ball bearings and nuts and bolts in them to maximize the death toll. The Israelis lost only a handful of civilians thanks to shelters and warning systems. Your arguement is baseless.
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PapaWolf1 year, 6 months ago
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Israeli casualties are low because the rockets are blind. Most of the time, they land in fields posing little threat to civilians.
>>Israel in comparison tried to minimize Lebonese casualties
If you believe that, you're too gullible. Israel warned citizens to leave areas then fired on them as they were leaving. That's minimizing casualties?
>>. Hezbollah fired its rockets into Israeli cities with the hope that they would kill as many Israeli civilians as possible
But only started DAYS after Israel started bombing.
>>And the rockets had ball bearings and nuts and bolts in them to maximize the death toll
As opposed to the cluster bombs Israel used - a great majority within the last HOURS leading to the cease fire? And many are still unexploded and STILL posing a threat to Lebanese civilians?
Your 1-sided support of Israel is baseless.
Indiscriminate rocket attacks by Hezbollah are atrocities, but so were the indiscriminate bombings by Israel.
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walden31 year, 6 months ago
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I don't agree with everything on these websites.
What's Israel to do when those who want to kill Israelis use women, children and red crescent ambulances to smuggle munitions and bombs?
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism- Obstacle to Peace/Hamas war against Israel/Hamas exploitation of civilians as human shields - Photographic evidence.htm
http://www.geocities.com/palestiniansarelies/Hu...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/nov/20/israel
http://www.israelnewsagency.com/palestinianterr...
http://blog.technonllc.com/index.php?/archives/...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MuRp4qXARCY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Xyp1eP7uTs
http://www.truveo.com/Palestinians-Terrorists-u...
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PapaWolf1 year, 6 months ago
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1st, how did we get from Hezbollah to Hamas?
2nd, what would you do if your homeland was occupied by a brutal force who cared less about your life than the wildlife in its homeland?
Israel is extremely well funded & well armed by the US, with the latest weapons & implements of destruction. The Palestinians & Hamas have been isolated with little to no assistance from anyone, and have been brutalized for TOO many years. What would you do in that situation?
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walden31 year, 6 months ago
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So you're denying that Hizbollah uses civilian populations to it's advantage, or do you accept it, because on the one hand you seem to deny it, but on the other hand you seem to rationalize the behavior?
What would I do? I'm not sure. It's impossible for me to say anything without being in the situation. That's one reason I would never criticize Kennedy for Chapaquidick, because I've never been in a car sinking to the bottom of dark waters.
I'd like to think that I would do the right thing and not hide behind my wife and kids to draw enemy fire. Terrorists know that they can't win militarily so they need to win in the court of public opinion. That's the nature of terrorism.
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PapaWolf1 year, 6 months ago
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I don't agree w/hiding behind civilians. I also don't agree w/targeting civilians, no matter WHOSE hiding behind them. And, btw, Israel was targeting civilians long before Hezbollah started hiding behind them - even before Israel was a state.
And I'd like to think that I would've stayed in the National Guard. But never having been a coked-up alcoholic facing the possibility of deployment to Viet Nam (was the NG used in VN at that time), I'm not sure what I would've done.
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hyperbola1 year, 6 months ago
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How overtly you now apply the nazi/zionist ideology of "superhuman", "subhuman", "living space for the master race" and "ethnic cleansing / genocide for the subhumans" in your posts Walden. Seems you are increasingly desperate to cover up racist zionist crimes against humanity.
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walden31 year, 6 months ago
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How dare you Hyper. I'm one of the few people on Propeller that sees both sides. When Israel does wrong I'm not afraid to criticize and I have been vocal about the destruction of homes, the war in Lebanon and the bombing of Syria to name a few. When Palestinians or others do wrong I'm not afraid to criticize.
You support and rationalize shooting missiles at Israeli civilians. You support and rationalize suicide bombs in market places.
Not once have you ever criticized any violence that any Muslim has done. A month ago when that Palestinian set off a bomb in a marketplace and killed some old Jew woman you blamed the "Zionists."
You have a hell of a nerve pointing your guilty finger at me.
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PapaWolf1 year, 6 months ago
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>>How dare you Hyper. I'm one of the few people on Propeller that sees both sides
My memory's not the best, but I do seem to remember that about you. I like people who can see both sides.
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djrevelky1 year, 6 months ago
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walden3,
Don't worry about hyperbola. From my experience, the first person to accuse someone of being a racist usually is the racist.
Why does hyperbola criticize the Israelis but not the Palestinians? I think we know the answer...
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hyperbola1 year, 6 months ago
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Sorry Walden, but you are anything BUT a neutral observer and commentator. You are constantly inventing "excuses" for zionist crimes against humanity. There are jews (like this one) who do put human rights ahead of zionism, but you are not one of them.
The end of Israel?
I am feeling optimistic about Palestine....
...I am optimistic not because I think the process of ethnic cleansing and apartheid in Israel/Palestine is going to end tomorrow, but because I can feel the ideology behind these policies beginning to collapse. For years the true meaning of political Zionism has been as ignored as its effects on Palestinian daily life. And suddenly it is beginning to break open...
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hyperbola1 year, 6 months ago
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..So this idea of a "two-state solution" a la Olmert -- which I would argue provides neither a "state" nor a "solution" for the Palestinian people -- is the new transfer. It is no longer popular in the world to openly discuss expulsion (though there are political parties in Israel that advocate this), but Olmert hopes that by creating a Palestinian "state" on a tiny portion of historic Palestine, he can accomplish the same goal: maintaining an ethno-religious state exclusively for the Jewish people in most of historic Palestine. His plan, as all other plans Israeli leaders have tried to "negotiate," ignores the basic rights of the two-thirds of the Palestinian population who are refugees. They, like all other refugees in the world, have the internationally recognized right to return to their lands and receive compensation for loss and damages. This should not be up for negotiation....
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hyperbola1 year, 6 months ago
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So why am I optimistic? Why do I think Olmert will fail, if not in the short term, at least in the long term? There are many signs....
...So when Olmert warns that we will "face a South African-style struggle for equal voting rights" and that "the state of Israel [will be] finished," I get a little flutter of excitement. I think of the 171 Palestinian organizations who have called on the international community to begin campaigns of boycott, divestment, and sanctions against Israel until Israel complies with international law. This is already a South African-style struggle, and we outside of Palestine need to do our part. Especially those of us who live in the US, the country that gives Israel more than $10 million every single day, must take responsibility for the atrocities committed in our name and with our money....
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hyperbola1 year, 6 months ago
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..as a Jewish-American, I know that while it might be scary to some, while it will require a lot of imagination, the end of Israel as a Jewish state could mean the beginning of democracy, human rights, and some semblance of justice in a land that has almost forgotten what that means.
(Hannah Mermelstein is co-founder and co-director of Birthright Unplugged, which takes mostly Jewish North American people into the West Bank to meet with Palestinian people and to equip them to return to their own communities and work for justice; and takes Palestinian children from refugee camps to Jerusalem, the sea, and the villages their grandparents fled in 1948, and supports them to document their experiences and create photography exhibits to share with their communities and with the world.)
http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article9169.shtml
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walden31 year, 6 months ago
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Hyper - make no mistake about it, you defend, enable and rationalize attacks against Israeli civilians. You do. The record is there.
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hyperbola1 year, 6 months ago
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Nope, I simply ask you why you are surprised when palestinians that have been subjected to a massive ethnic cleansing program by zionists for most of a century fight back by any means they can. So long as you support this ethnic cleansing and deny these human beings their rights as human beings because you support a racist ideology, you haven't much cause to complain when the victims of your racist aggression fight back.
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Daylight1 year, 6 months ago
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walden3
I'd like to think that I would do the right thing and not hide behind my wife and kids to draw enemy fire. Terrorists know that they can't win militarily so they need to win in the court of public opinion. That's the nature of terrorism
It is a lie that every governments tell the world that so called terrorist hide behind the civilians. If these people hide behind civilians they will lose the public support. This is not a new accusation that the criminal governments like Israel and the US make against those who resist because America, Israel and their puppets kill civilians and they need some kind of justifiable excuses.
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walden31 year, 6 months ago
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Did you look at any of my links? Did you see pictures of gunmen and little kids interspersed? Did you see the pictures of the ambulances smuggling bombs and weapons? How about the picture of the people hanging out on top of the building where the missiles are fired from?
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dissent1 year, 6 months ago
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because what the palestinians do is wrong doesn't make what the israelis do right. put yourself in the shoes of the palestinians, if you can. what would you do? what would you do that would ensure survival? the palestinians are already the living dead. what is a lot like what's happening to indigenous people everywhere. i'm not say they are, i'm saying it's similar. another difference is that rather than drinking and dying by degrees they're fighting back. seems to me they don't have too much to lose. when you're clawing for survival against methodical extermination its easy for morals to be sacrificed, wouldn't you say?
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MrBabyMan1 year, 6 months ago
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US tried to stop israel? That is not true. Israel wanted to stop the war after a week they started and the same US gov told Israel to keep going to remove Hezbullah!
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Endoscopy1 year, 6 months ago
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papawolf
I know you think Israel is wrong about everything. They are supposed to let the surrounding terrorists send rockets and suicide bombers and do nothing like good little sheep led to the slaughter.
What a guy.
Christian brotherly love. For the terrorists only.
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