Comments for Military Draft Discussed in Senate »
Posted By Neophile 1 year, 7 months ago in NewsIn an exchange sure to send ripples of anxiety through the all-volunteer military, the Senate's senior defense spending member asked Defense Secretary Robert Gates and Joint Chiefs Chairman Adm. Mike Mullen if it is time to "consider reinstituting the draft."
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Teagen1 year, 7 months ago
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Then if you studied your history we'd still be a part of the United Kingdom. Each colony drafted people to serve in the Revolution. Over 75% of the colonies wanted to remain with Brits. The Civil War would have been won by the South. How else would you get farmers from Illinois or Wisconsin to fight a war over slavery. Think of the time period. Most wouldn't help out his neighbor if he was Irish and the other was German. You think they'd actually give to rips about some slave in Georgia or Virginia? The draft made it possible. Drafts have their place. WW1, WW2, the Cold War and the like. Great national threats. If we were taking on all of Islam then perhaps but your average person in this region is just like us. Good schools for the kids. A job for them. Nice home with running water and electricity. Good security and police. Just like us. They're rebuilding a country and don't need one. Neither do we.
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djn3nunez31 year, 7 months ago
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Iraq is holding steady at number 6 (0.773 million barrels per day, at todays prices thats $100 million a day we spend on Iraqi oil), behind Venezuela (0.858 million barrels per day).
http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/petroleum/da...
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Charlson1 year, 7 months ago
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Too bad we don't require a mandatory service to our country...a couple of years of serving our country in the military or in a civilian capacity. Besides taxes, our citizens are not required to serve our country. That's one way citizens can give our nation the help to build new infrastructures and help defend our borders. And wars of aggression would be thought long and hard before committing our men and women to combat because they may be you or someone dear to you. It's so easy to start wars when it's someone else's sons and daughters going off to fight in foreign lands for less than defending our nation.
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Jaydee401 year, 7 months ago
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The country is there to serve it's citizens, which the US falls short at by the way, and not the other way around. The government has no right to mandate military service but then again in people living in a truly free country already know that.
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slate1 year, 7 months ago
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Jay,
Germany, Finland, Sweden and Switzerland all have 'mandated' drafts. Now are you going to tell me that these European countries, that the left uses as the template of how countries are supposed to benevolently er 'serve' their people aren't 'truly' free and their government has no right to mandate military service?
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Teagen1 year, 7 months ago
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Europe did if for the last 2000 years or so and it wasn't corporate greed, it was the greed of a king or queen. Now before you call Mumbles, "King George", please note we're not colonizing Iraq. We're actually drawing our troops down. We will have bases there for a while but that isn't new. Germany and France permit our bases as does South Korea. I suspect Iraq will need our help for some time. The good part, the bases in Saudi and other nations are no longer required and you will see them start closing.
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Jaydee401 year, 7 months ago
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What you say is true but as unorme2 points out they don't take advantage of the trust their citizens put in their governments like the US government does. When a government lies to it's people they are no longer obligated to serve or support it anymore. The US came into being based on a lie and hasn't stopped since.
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earthlingerer1 year, 7 months ago
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Many more than those countries require service for their nation. You'd be surprised how many countries working along side the US in Iraq and Afghanistan require service.
And those countries aren't sending green kids to these palces, either, but their best soldiers who choose and relish the chance to be soldiers.
Of course, when you consider some of these countries, and the way the government operates in them, it would make one wonder how "free" the US actually has become.
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Skeptic1 year, 7 months ago
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Whatever happened to the party of John Kennedy?
"Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country."
Ever since LBJ and the "Great Society," it seems the Democrat party has drifted further and further into believing that all problems can be solved by the state.
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jumpmaster1 year, 7 months ago
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Jaydee401 year, 7 months ago
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jumpmaster1 year, 7 months ago
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There is a different attitude in Canada than there is in the US. Canada is a nanny state. Canadians who have drive and initiative have to leave the country in order to fulfill their dreams and to realize their potential.
You ask why would anyone serve a country that does nothing for them. Maybe the Americans who volunteer to serve know that the US has done a lot for them. Maybe they believe in their missions. The fact that you asked the question shows that you are really all about you.
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Jaydee401 year, 7 months ago
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The fist part of you post is purely BS as Canada has always had a better standard of living than the US and that has been documented. Canadians do well any and everywhere.
Again I ask what does the US government do for it's people, one of the worst health care systems in a developed country, the public education system is based on lies and how many states teach creationism for Pete sakes. The government puts no value on the lives of those who chose to serve as seen by the callous manner it commits them to battle. When Katrina hit did the US government rush in to help? No that's right it was three Canadian ships providing support to those who needed it. Jump your blinded by the flag you're wrapped up in my friend. Must go for now, have a good day...Stay safe Teagan.
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jumpmaster1 year, 7 months ago
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I don't have to wrapped in any flag to be offended by your statements which have no basis in experience.
My point is that you are a self-proclaimed expert in the military while never having walked an inch while in uniform. So you watched a couple of Oliver Stone movies while sitting in an air conditioned theater and you have seen a few homeless vets panhandling. That does not give you any first hand knowledge of what motivates a person to enlist nor does it give you any first hand knowledge of the quality and character of the people who serve.
It would be no different than me judging all Canadians by your behavior and attitudes.
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canadianrancher571 year, 7 months ago
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jumpmaster- I'm glad you don't judge as all together,this is not related to the draft but it has to do with people doing things for the right reason. My son was down in Minot visiting his girlfriend who was in university down there, this was in mid April, he came home on Monday and said about having a really busy weekend. When I asked him how he kept busy he said that a notice came on tv. for people to come and help fight a large grass fire so he went on Saturday and again to another one Sunday,he did it because it was the right thing to do, made me proud.
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Jaydee401 year, 7 months ago
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My comments have every basis in experiences, my experiences. Your offended, so what? The US military and government has been offending people all over the world for years so your do some payback. News flash here folks your not the good guys and haven't been for years. That's not you personally of course because you seem like a fine person but you don't question enough. If soldiers really wanted to do the right thing they never would have entered countries like Iraq or Vietnam would they?
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Teagen1 year, 7 months ago
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I don't hate Canada, I think they're some of the prettiest states we have.... Please see my comments about my cousins health disasters below. You have an over glorified HMO. On Katrina, you're dealing with a very "unique" population. I have friends living where the hurricane actually hit. The problems you saw in New Orleans all stemmed from the corruption and graft that is Louisiana. The other problem stems from location. New Orleans is 2 stories below sea level while having borders with a huge lake, Mississippi River and the Gulf. I don't believe in evolution but anyone dumb enough to live in that place... It causes a person to think. Anyway. There were millions spent on the levies but between bribes and kick backs, it magically disappeared.
The entire bill presented to rebuild NO was actually larger than the entire value of the Gulf region. Corruption had nothing to do with it. A city controlled by the DNC, no corruption at all. Makes Chicago look legit.
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Jaydee401 year, 7 months ago
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I don't care what the problem in New Orleans stems from, the simple fact was that the United States government needed Canadian help because they were ill-equipped to deal with it. As for our health care system call it what you want, according to the facts involved it's leaps and bounds better than anything you have even if it's not perfect.
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Teagen1 year, 7 months ago
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Jay, perhaps you'd like to ask that of my cousin. She lived in Calgary. She and her husband imported English bone china. Did very well. Until he died waiting for cancer surgery. A couple of years later, she needed an emergency bypass. Fortunately for her, she had the money to fly to St. Paul and the Mayo Hospital to have it done. With the Canadian system she was told it would be about 6 weeks. She would have died waiting. So that's your "better standard". That's as bad as the dictator of Iran bragging there is no homosexuals in Iran because they're such a moral people. Then you find out the reason is they're executed. A much higher lifestyle in deed.
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Jaydee401 year, 7 months ago
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Teagan how about the people who die in the US every day because they can't afford to even see a doctor let alone get treatment? People die on waiting lists all around the world including the US so your little story whether true or not means nothing, the facts are clear that Canadians live longer and healthier and at a lower health care cost than Americans, your desperate attempt to belittle our system is nothing more than ignorance.
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Teagen1 year, 7 months ago
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I'm a conservative. Please don't compare JFK to Billy. JFK was a war hero who clearly proved his love of country. Billy rather than serving was in Moscow protesting America.
JFK fought in a war. Clinton paid w--res. JFK was wounded in action. Clinton was hit by an ashtray thrown by Hillary.
They have nothing in common besides being president. Well the sleeping around. JFK had Monroe, Bill had, oh no the fat intern? He's the president and that's the best he could do?
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lfergie8121 year, 7 months ago
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No The belief is that all problems are caused by the unlimited spending of the state. The difference is that the Democrats believe the money should be spent for the betterment of the people and the Republicans believe the money should be spent for the betterment of them.
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Teagen1 year, 7 months ago
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Mandate military service? Our government has every right to call a draft if there was a national emergency. That's a part of the Constitution and Bill of Rights. However there isn't a national emergency. This is a political dirty trick pulled during Memorial Day weekend. A total joke.
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Teagen1 year, 7 months ago
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Jay,
The people and the government are the same group of people. None better none worse. We select our leaders, it's the "consent of the governed". I know that's a part of the Declaration but it fits here and is easy. We select our leaders and they make important decisions with our consent. Screw up and you're out of office. One problem we have is the lack of term limits. We have guys like Kennedy and Byrd who should have gone home 30 years ago. They never seem to leave.
I hope this covers some of the misconceptions you hold for the USA.
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Jaydee401 year, 7 months ago
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The USA is different than no other country, slavery is legal nowhere and no one is the property of another including a country or their government. While you may select your leader, as most of the world does, they do not own you.
The problem is many Americans have misconceptions about the US and the world in general.
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Wolfie20071 year, 7 months ago
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Charlson
Actually, you're wrong about a requirement of US citizens ro serve their country it's called the militia. It is federal law but everyone now says the militia was replace by the National Guard but no one is required to join the guard.
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slate1 year, 7 months ago
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slate1 year, 7 months ago
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What I find interesting here is the people that are from the left that now somehow like the idea of a draft after detesting the military and especially being mandated to join the military. The question now is why the change of heart. A few of the possibilities are listed below.
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slate1 year, 7 months ago
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1. They didn't forget that we were attacked a few years ago and know that even though Bush has indeed made some major mistakes as it pertains to the war on Radical Islam, the fight is still going to be needed to go forward and they are wise enough to realize we need a larger military and are willing to have all the young in our country susceptible to the draft?
2. They actually just hate the war in Iraq, that they will be OK with anything that is put forth, as long as it gets us out and especially if it's a slap in the face of the current administration.
3. They are very patriotic and they want to open the door for their children to also be able to contribute to the greatness of this country, by serving in the military?
What do you think the answer is?
Signed,
Straw Monkey
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nostalgia1 year, 7 months ago
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Jaydee401 year, 7 months ago
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slate1 year, 7 months ago
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Heck I've been asking my entire life for the Government to not spend so much so I can keep more, you do know that when you make these claims, that it's all those in both parties involved don't you?
What's our 'New' place? Does this mean that the world will no longer ask for our help, be it with our military, monetary, technological or otherwise?
That's fine with me, now that we are second tier in your eyes, who da big benevolent Dawg that's going to step into out 'former' place and take up the slack. Please make that list for us to see, I've very interested on your perspective on this one.
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Jaydee401 year, 7 months ago
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US help is like the kiss of death, pleasant but at a hell of a cost. Where is all this Aid or help Americans claim to give the world? Numbers show that the US has a terrible record for actually providing the funds they commit to providing. Half of their 2006 aid numbers was to Iraq a country they destroyed so how is that Aid? No sir they are not the kind benevolent do gooders that you would have everyone think. The world can live very well without the guns, bombs, mines, and planes that kill all over provided as aid or at a price from the US thank you very much.
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Jaydee401 year, 7 months ago
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Lets look at Americas position in the world lately shall we? Economy, one of the worst of all first world countries, the countries debt is at a point where it can never be repaid, your military is the largest in the world and you spend more on it than the rest of the world combined but you still have yet to win against a first rate enemy on your own. Say that sounds like your health care system, you pay more than anyone but get lest than satisfactory results. Your education system is one of the worst in all developed countries, thats baring your Universities because the wealthy pay extra for that. Your national standard of living, always lower than ours I might add, is falling globally and your trade deficit keeps getting worse. USA is far from a superpower and that's thanks to seven years of Bush. lmao
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canadianrancher571 year, 7 months ago
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My opinion about a draft is that I think that all countries should have it and there should be no exemptions, once a person finishes high school or leaves school they should receive a military training and I feel that there is a position for everyone unless you are a complete vegetable. But the main point would be no exempions or special treatment.
A comment on the story, The reason I feel the draft was brought up a couple of years ago was not related to cost but from declining enrolement in the forces and I won't get into that but the second reason has to do with cost and I think that the government has made a mistake in regards to outsourcing alot of things. The companies that supply services to the military do so for a profit and when it comes to the military it should all be left under government control. For some reason I think that the military could supply every thing that is needed and at a lower cost if they were allowed to have open bidding on supplies and equipment.
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canadianrancher571 year, 7 months ago
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Jaydee401 year, 7 months ago
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How much education does it take to point and shoot? Is a person convicted of car theft any less likely to desire to serve their country? Is not the Army the ultimate gang that demands loyalty and obedience? Is it the job of a soldier to ask "paper or plastic"?
Here in Canada regular forces can be hard to get into while reserves are much easier.
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jumpmaster1 year, 7 months ago
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Your comment perfectly illustrates how ignorant you are of the military and it clearly shows that you have never served in the military.
I don't care if you served or never served. But you don't have any idea what you are talking about and it shows loud and clear.
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Jaydee401 year, 7 months ago
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Ok you've insulted me now support what you say if you can?
It has been my experience that military personnel are short sighted, single-minded and short tempered, hardly the kind of person to solve any problem but instead make more. No I have not served and have more brains than to mindlessly give my life to a bunch of dimwits to use as they see fit in the current global situation. Many people are of the mind military service gives you some elevated citizen status but that's not the case thankfully. If you look back to the two last real wars it was citizen armies who won the day and not professional soldiers and you would do well to remember that Jump, it's the everyday person our country must serve and not some would be elite.
Why would it matter what a person did before if military training is up to snuff? Answer that Jump if you can?
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walden31 year, 7 months ago
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"It has been my experience that military personnel are short sighted, single-minded and short tempered, hardly the kind of person to solve any problem but instead make more."
You don't know anyone, or enough, people in the military or maybe it's just the loudmouths that attract your attention.
Lots of people join them military for economic reasons or school loans. It's not a bad career, when Republicans aren't in office. Don't forget for every guy humping a rifle there are ten peeling potatoes, cleaning toilets, delivering supplies, cutting hair and so on.
The military provides a discipline, a sense of pride and maturity to people.
It's done wonder for my cousin who was a pot smoking, jobless, video game playing guy. Now he's a scout. He's mature, neat, has his act together and is married with baby. The army was the best thing that ever happened to him. Quiet, soft spoken, kind, generous guy.
His dad's been in the service forever. The guy has a doctorate.
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Will13131 year, 7 months ago
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my son is in the navy.. engineering officer on a nuclear submarine... the military has WELL over 1 million dollars in educating him...
he could triple his salary in the private sector... not just too many people running around IAEA certified to cold start a nuke reactor...
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jumpmaster1 year, 7 months ago
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"How much education does it take to point and shoot?"
For a nuclear engineering officer, my guess is that it takes a lot of education. My brother was a nuke and I don't recall any of his peers being the kind of mindless, uneducated, dirt bags that jaydee claims they are.
My thanks to your son for his service.
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Will13131 year, 7 months ago
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got a FREE masters in Applied Physics.. from the very prestigeous Naval Post-Graduate School....
flew him and his family to Germany twice for over a month each time to test the theories he and his prof were working on... his thesis is CLASSIFIED...
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crghss1 year, 7 months ago
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So the service is made up of people with just guns running around to "point and shoot". They don't maintain, fix and fly some of the most sophisticated aircraft in the world? They don't manage one of the most complex logistic processes in the world? They don't maintain, fix and operate one the most advanced communication networks in the world? Your naivety is astounding?
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earthlingerer1 year, 7 months ago
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Especially the gang members, criminal waivers, psych cases allowed in, and the ones that can't even satisfactorily complete high school.
In other words, people that can't even get jobs in grocery stores or fast food.
Of course in your Canada, things may be different than in the US.
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jumpmaster1 year, 7 months ago
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"Especially the gang members, criminal waivers, psych cases allowed in, and the ones that can't even satisfactorily complete high school"
Even if that was true, which it is not, the military is just a slice of society and you are part of society. So thank yourself for producing gang members, psychos, and high school dropouts.
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Teagen1 year, 7 months ago
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A draft? Wow, just another dirty trick from the dems. We don't need a draft. I'm in the military and we want people who want to be in the military. Not some sniveling cry baby.
Also if you're the type of person too stupid to get a college deferment, we don't want you over here either.
This really is a low blow for the dems. They're trying to make it sound like we can't handle things. We're seeing a draw down here and friends from my first husband's unit claim they're seeing good progress in Afghanistan.
Why would the dems want a draft? Their messiah, Obama has made it pretty clear he's pulling a Jimmy Carter. We will see the military slashed. I have many friends waiting for this election before the re-up. Obama wins, they're retiring as am I.
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jumpmaster1 year, 7 months ago
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"we want people who want to be in the military. Not some sniveling cry baby"
I agree 100%. I was happy to have served with volunteers. They wanted to be there, they volunteered to be there and their attitudes were much, much better than a bunch of whiny, sniveling little babies.
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DeadXXXManXXXTalkin1 year, 7 months ago
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"So what your saying is it takes a college education to kill unarmed civilians and children"
my nephew wants to join the marines and I guess you need a bachelor's degree. I don't know much about it.
but I know people who've been in the military
they run from dumb to brilliant, cowardly to brave, all types of folks
some of the jobs done in today's military take serious education and training
I'm not sure what point your pursuing
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Jaydee401 year, 7 months ago
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My point is someone made a comment about them lowering the standards to allow people with criminal records and lower education into the military, there is no reason to think they can't be just as good or orderly as a person with a college education. Any training they need they get from the Army or what ever branch they serve in. It's only right that the military represent a cross section of society with good and bad coming from all levels of society. What education needed would depend on just what posting you wanted I imagine, hence why some drop outs get in as well as people with degrees. Another point I'm trying to make is if they all wanted to do the right thing many would refuse the orders given them.
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Codi69341 year, 7 months ago
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I would like to see how a Democratic controlled Congress will package this and sell this to the American public? With the election coming closer, and Democratics could have both Congress and the WH. They WILL NOT settle themsleves with defeat in this war. Don't disappoint me anti-war crowd. If you buy this hook ,line and sinker you are suckers and only following a party with no ideals and not using your head. Be a man, if you against the war, stay that way!
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pcknowledge1 year, 7 months ago
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A draft is an excellent idea. Many people who are for the war don't actually want to fight in a war. The Bush family, the Cheney's, etc don't want to send their own children to fight in any war. The military needs people & in an effort to recruit they offer Immigrants & their families citizenship provided they enlist & complete their military service.
I've been to the Middle East. I didn't see any proggress there because of these Bush led wars. In fact, Iraq is much, much worse of now then it was prior to the Bush led invasion. Afghanistan is much of the same, except even poorer since the war. Most of the infrastructure (if one can even call it that) was destroyed in the Bush led war & never repaired. The Taliban is just as active as it was prior to the Bush led war. BL was never found. It was all for oil, Bush/Cheney's greed for it.
We, people living in America, haven't seen any benefits from these wars. We are paying the price for it.
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militaryone1 year, 7 months ago
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I can tell you first hand that we do not get paid 126,000 per year. This is a joke from all those that think it. Our men and woman work 20 to 24 hours per day. No time for family, friends, holidays or vacations. We do this from the heart to protect and serve our country not for the very minimal pay we receive. This position in life is for people that love and care about others and our Great Nation. I agree I don't want a draft because then I will have people like you (uncaring and nongiving) standing next to my husband (who cares and defends this country) during and after wars. None of you know what it is to stand up and fight for our country or any other. You hide in your homes talking about things you have no knowledge of while the true heros of this country are out giving you the freedom to hide at home. Shame on all of you! If you actually took the time to look at a map maybe (if your smart enough) you will see that Bush put us in a good place. Think about it!
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raza91 year, 7 months ago
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"If you actually took the time to look at a map maybe (if your smart enough) you will see that Bush put us in a good place. Think about it!"
mmmmm-k My friends and family that are currently, or have been over to the middle east have a very different viewpoint. They don't want to be occupiers. My cousin even said to me, "Those Iraqis are doing what every red blooded American would do, if foreign troops occupied our country."
I will even go as far as to say, that most men/women don't believe in the "war", that is why Ron Paul had so much money donated to his campaign by individuals in the US Army, Navy and Air Force.
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militaryone1 year, 7 months ago
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This is to JayDee! Jump is correct! More Brains!! Ha,Ha I think not! I would like to ask you for all the dimwits out there that protect you, "Where are your brains?" You have no idea what you are talking about and since you are not happy with our country why not move out. Where would you be today if it was not for our military over all these years? All the veterans, all the active duty and reservists. Where?
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pcknowledge1 year, 7 months ago
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"Where would you be today if it was not for our military over all these years?"
I agree with that statement. We wouldn't be where we are today if it where not for the fine men and women who served in the past.
With that said, our President should be selective on when & where wars should be fought. The Bush led wars in the Middle East where only for reasons of oil, profit, and greed. Our military is there to protect the country, not to be used for the greed of the President, Vice President, OPEC, Corporate America.
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pcknowledge1 year, 7 months ago
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The most comon accusation I hear from people who are for the wars are :"You live in Mommy's basement & have no idea. Or you talk about things you have no knowledge about."
I don't know any adults who live in Mommy's basement. I do know quite a few people who travel to the Middle East for business/work. Who are working in the Middle East for a security company or in some other field or serving their country. I was in the ME when Bush announced the Iraq war. I am quite familiar with the region. These Bush led wars have accomplished nothing, except inflame the Middle East regions. Kill thousands of innocent civilians & destroy their infrastructure. With Saddam dead, there is a power vaccum which the Iraqis won't allow us to fill. The Taliban is as active as ever, all the way into Pakistan, where they are led by Taliban leader Baitullah Mehsood.
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pcknowledge1 year, 7 months ago
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Every Taliban leader we manage to kill, will be replaced by another. Everytime we interfer in the Middle East & train someone like Saddam, he will turn against us & decades later our government will want him dead.
They hate our interference on their land, they believe the oil that flows on their land belongs to them. They will fight us everytime we invade their country or send our troops there. Obama is right. Now is the time for tough talks. Now is the time to withdraw our troops from the various ME regions & limit our business activities to buying their oil. There is no way to win this war in Iraq, & there will never be. Whoeever the Iraqis will choose as their next leader, will inevitably turn against us a few yrs from now. There is no way to win a war in Afghanistan. The Taliban will hide out in Pakistan, in the village areas, in caves, & as soon as our forces withdraw they show up again.
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crghss1 year, 7 months ago
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Nice rant but prior to 9/11 whose land were we on? If you say Saudi Arabia it was because they asked us to. Remember, Kuwait and all that. So nice try but rings kinda hollow.
"train someone like Saddam"
So we trained Saddam to drive and fly Soviet Planes and Tanks?
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fsev411 year, 7 months ago
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Why not a hybrid military. If you volunteer and are capable of filling the more high-tech positions your pay and benefits reflect that. If you are drafted you wind-up filling the more mundane jobs that we're paying contractors outrageous amounts to perform. Your pay and benefits are lower but you're done in two or three years. I think it worked well before and gave a lot of wayward young people a direction in life. Some even came to enjoy the military life and stepped up to the volunteer ranks. One major side benefit is that it would seriously deflate war profiteers like Haliburton. It would have to be a fair draft with minimum reasons for deferment. It could also give us more bodies for such things as responding to natural disasters, assisting in maintaining national parks and other government facilities and maybe even some teachers aides and such.
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walden31 year, 7 months ago
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I think a draft is a good idea.
Not necessarily military service, but some sort of national service like rebuilding NO after Katrina.
I think we'd be less likely to support international intervention if each of us had a dog in the fight.
I think that the US used to be a melting pot. Now we all hold on to our own ethnicity maybe a little too much. A lot of immigrants don't want to be Americanized, be assimilated or learn the language. Forcing everyone to serve would help to weave us all together again.
I think the benefits of a draft outweigh the benefits of an all volunteer army.
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jumpmaster1 year, 7 months ago
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"I think a draft is a good idea.
Not necessarily military service, but some sort of national service like rebuilding NO after Katrina"
I agree with this 100%. If everyone contributed to the country in some way or another, then you would see a big shift in attitudes. The problem is that most people don't want to contribute in any way. The military is not for everyone but contributing to the society in which you live is for every single person in that society.
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hyperbola1 year, 7 months ago
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We have seen in numerous "wars" in the past 50 years that the US military is repeatedly used to provide "private security" for corrupt US corporations.
The idea that the state can force citizens to "contribute" is totalitarian and worthy of the Soviet Union.
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fjgalt1 year, 7 months ago
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Involuntary servitude means slavery. The military draft was and is a form of slavery, forcing people to act differently than they would if they were free. In practice, a military draft is sending young men and women to fight and die for the benefit of others. Forcing them to build and repair bridges and other forms of "national service" is still a form of slavery.
The idea that a military draft will end wars is false. There was a military draft when we fought in Korea and Vietnam, and tens of thousands of men died in those undeclared, and hence unconstitutional, wars.
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fjgalt1 year, 7 months ago
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A military draft is philosophically opposed to the founding principles of the United States -- a person's right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. The Constitution gives the government the power to fight wars but it doesn't have the right the abrogate the rights of its citizens by instituting a draft. You can thank Lincoln for violating the Constitution and setting the precedent for conscription and forcing a bloody, costly war between the states.
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walden31 year, 7 months ago
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I disagree. The need to protect one's country is so basic that the power to draft doesn't need to be expressly enumerated. In return for the rights and privileges of citizenship an obligation arises to serve if and when required to do so even if one disagrees with the specific mission.
Finally, I think Congress is granted the power to draft with the "to raise and support armies" clause. What good is this if Congress can't compel service?
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fjgalt1 year, 7 months ago
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Your premise that the citizen owes service to the government assumes that the government grants rights and privileges, much as the serf owed service to his master. The original American concept of rights was that people are born with those rights - life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness - (given by a creator or his by his nature as a human being) and that the government's purpose is to protect those rights, not violate them for some "noble" purpose.
There is no obligation on the part of the citizen to submit to force being used against him to place his natural rights to life, liberty, and his pursuit of happiness in jeopardy.
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walden31 year, 7 months ago
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See I think there's a sort of collective responsibility. Your individual rights don't mean a thing without the ability to defend them. The noble purpose is to defend the Constitution, our allies or our borders. Just as government can tax, government can draft. If you want government then you have to take everything that comes along with it. The creature needs to be fed whether it's with taxes or unfortunately, hopefully never or rarely if at all, with our blood.
How about government's ability to imprison people, do you accept that government can deny an individual their liberty because they violate some law?
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fjgalt1 year, 7 months ago
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A rational person's responsibility is to defend his rights and those same rights in others. But this responsibility cannot be imposed on him by force, else it would violate the same rights it seeks to preserve. I would surely pick up arms to defend this country if it were attacked. I would never do so to fight against people who have not attacked this country. There was no shortage of volunteers to fight in WWII. Without a draft, the government could not have waged the war in Vietnam, for example.
It is because of the lack of a draft that we can't commit more troops into the Middle East. Once a draft is re-established, there would be nothing to prevent the government from attacking Iran.
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fjgalt1 year, 7 months ago
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The power to impose direct taxes on the citizens was prohibited by the Constitution until the passage of the 16th Amendment, a contradiction to the original intent. To tax, i.e., steal the fruits of one's efforts, is to infringe on a person's right to sustain his life, liberty, and property.
The power to tax is the power to destroy, as is the power to initiate any force against people. As for imprisonment, the government's responsibility is to remove from the general population those who have violated the rights of others. The punishment for murder, theft, etc., are properly the role of government, an objective delegation of the citizen's right to self-defense.
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hyperbola1 year, 7 months ago
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Well Walden, you sound like a newcomer to america who doesn't know much about our history.
Many of our founding fathers were so aware of the pernicious effects of government that they were against the US even having a standing army. Indeed, they also said that the Constitution precludes the US sending troops overseas.
Speech against military conscription (Daniel Webster, 1814)
...Is this, sir, consistent with the character of a free government? Is this civil liberty? Is this the real character of our Constitution? No sire, indeed it is not. The Constitution is libeled. The people of this country have not established for themselves such a fabric of despotism. They have not purchased at a vast expense of their own treasure and their own blood a Magna Carta to be slaves. ...
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hyperbola1 year, 7 months ago
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Where is it written in the Constitution, in what article or section is it contained, that you may take children from their parents from their children, and compel them to fight the battles of any war in which the folly or the wickedness of government may engage it? Under what concealment has this power lain hidden which now for the first time comes forth, with a tremendous and bailful aspect, to trample down and destroy the dearest rights of personal liberty? Who will show me any Constitutional injunction which makes it the duty of the American people to surrender everything valuable in life, and even life itself, not when the safety of their country and its liberties may demand the sacrifice, but whenever the purposes of an ambitious and mischievous government may require it? Sir, I almost disdain to go to quotations and references to prove that such an abominable doctrine has no foundation in the Constitution of the country....
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/814514/p...
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walden31 year, 7 months ago
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" The possession of authority to enact the statute must be found in the clauses of the Constitution giving Congress power 'to declare war; ... to raise and support armies, but no appropriation of money to that use shall be for a longer term than two years; ... to make rules for the government and regulation of the land and naval forces.' Article 1, 8. And of course the powers conferred by these provisions like all other powers given carry with them as pro ided by the Constitution the authority 'to make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers.' Article 1, 8.
As the mind cannot conceive an army without the men to compose it, on the face of the Constitution the objection that it does not give power to provide for such men would seem to be too frivolous for further notice."
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walden31 year, 7 months ago
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"In the Colonies before the separation from England there cannot be the slightest doubt that the right to enforce military service was unquestioned and that practical effect was given to the power in many cases. Indeed [245 U.S. 366, 380] the brief of the government contains a list of Colonial Acts manifesting the power and its enf rcement in more than two hundred cases.
'That every member of society hath a right to be protected in the enjoyment of life, liberty, and property, and therefore is bound to contribute his proportion toward the expense of that protection, and yield his personal service when necessary, or an equivalent thereto.' Article 8 (Thorpe, American Charters, Constitutions and Organic Laws, vol. 5, pp. 3081, 3083)."
http://supreme.justia.com/us/245/366/case.html
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hyperbola1 year, 7 months ago
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Yes, by 1918 (your article) we had already begun to lose many of our freedoms. That we lost them in the course of that particular war is an excellent example of what Daniel Webster was objecting too - capricious governments abusing their own people.
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ARRAY1 year, 7 months ago
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I would be more than happy to serve in the military myself, but the draft would probably include females this time, and I would never let my little girls go to war. I would simply leave the country and take them with me before they got to the age of being drafted. If a draft was truly needed I am not sure if i would be against it or not - would illegal immigrants be drafted as well? What about the daughters of politicians? I think that every person in the country should have to perform some sort of national service for two or three years, immigrants included - even if they are too old to serve in the military when they arrive here. And all the older people who have never served in the military should have to serve in some way now. It has to be fair. Either everybody has to be forced to serve, or nobody should be forced to serve.
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Wolfie20071 year, 7 months ago
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Reinstatement of the draft would be a betrayal of the so called "60's generation" by liberal democrat politicians.
How soon they forget, the volunteer military was their idea to stop the draft. Of course, it's nothing new, liberal democrats always betray those who trust them.
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quillyregnold1 year, 7 months ago
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Gather round folks gather round, It's time to let your children die for no F*king reason at all!
"It's time to consider re instituting the draft." Isn't this something we were told would NOT HAPPEN less than a year ago??
George W Bush should lead the fight in uniform, let him and everyone else that wants this war, take the place of our children who wanted nothing to do with it!
Our kids are dying for oil, revenge for daddy Busch, and war profit for daddy Busch not to mention several others.
Where is Osama, We have destroyed Iraq for uhhhh.....well just because. Now that we have terrorized Iraq, shouldn't we be LOOKING for Bin Laden?? After all he is the one who Supposedly responsible for destroying the world trade center. That is if you believe these skyscrapers fell straight down from a jet crashing into them, even though any other skyscraper requires demolition to do so. "Just the Facts Ma'm"
I love America!! I hate the terrorist regime that runs it.
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not2needy1 year, 7 months ago
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I am so glad i don't have any close family members that would be eligible for the draft, and if i did, i would recommend that they either leave the country or refuse to go. If enough men and women refused, what could they do? Not enough prisons to lock them all up!
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pcknowledge1 year, 7 months ago
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No we could never have won in Afghanistan. And we will never win any war in any part of the Middle East. Their way of life, their mindset, their culture, is very different from ours. The Taliban are the offspripng from the mujahadeen who ousted the Soviets (with the CIA's assistance). Since the Soviets invaded Afghanistan, they have decided they don't want any foreign interference on their land. They have ruled Afghanistan since then. To them, any foreign interference is viewed as a negative. Our values, our beliefs, our way of life, clashes with theirs.
They don't want any part of it, and they would never permit any foreigners to make any decisions for them. They are armed, stubborn, extremly dangerous, cunning. They know where to hide out in a time of war, they fight deadly guerrilla warfare, and they are supported by Pakistan's ISI. Whatever we try to build there, they will inevitably destroy. They will insist on ruling the country on their terms.
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