Abu Graib: What the Most Seen Photographs Say »
Posted By bubba2 1 year, 4 months ago in Arts & Entertainment'Standard Operating Procedure', the new film by Errol Morris, is the fruit of meticulous research into the ill-treatment of Iraqi detainees. Featuring numerous interviews with military personnel who served at Abu Ghraib, it leaves the viewer in little doubt that the cruelty captured on camera was authorized at the highest levels in Washington.
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bubba2
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nikkibabe1 year, 4 months ago
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This will put to shame not only Bush, Cheney, Rice & Powell BUT all the Americans who supported and still support the invasion and occupation of a country.
It is the worst a civilized UN member nation can do to another country. The UN was formed to prevent just this kind of "HITLER & NAZI" head rising again in the civilized world.
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bigurn1 year, 4 months ago
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Y'know, I had a guess about how many comments it would take to get to "Nazi" or "Hitler". Nikki, you blew it away. Comment #1! What an accomplishment! That's the kind of calm intellectual discourse we need on Propeller.
The incidents at the Abu Gharib were a stain on our military police. The commanding officer was legitimately relieved of command, and positive changes made.
The atrocities committed by the terrorists were orders of magnitude more grotesque, and orders of magnitude more common. Comments like Nikki's weaken our resolve and help the terrorists.
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Mutainia1 year, 4 months ago
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One thing I learned about this, is that, the worst thing you can do to a Islamic terrorist, is to put underwear over his head and take a picture of it. Sounds like they'd prefer death than have underwear over their head and photographed. I'm thinking that, instead of water-boarding, why not threaten to put them naked in a pyramid, or, put underwear over their head and take a picture. I KNOW his face can't be seen, but, hey, it MIGHT get him telling where a bomb is.
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Locky12Comment removed: Spammer, Abusive12 Replies
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bubba21 year, 4 months ago
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Both of you just never have gotten it ...
The VAST majority of the people in Abu Graib and Gitmo have NEVER been charged with ANYTHING because NO one has any EVIDENCE that they ever did anything wrong, let alone were involved in any "terrorist" activity!
You also apparently are totally ignorant regarding torture, because it is WRONG - period. It does NOT matter who does it. Especially because our country is SUPPOSED to be a democracy and a country that UPHOLDS the equal rights of others, we only DEMEAN ourselves by lowing our standards to those of our enemies.
You both should have applied for jobs at those facilities - I'm sure that the administration would have hired you in a heartbeat considering your attitudes.
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jordan111 year, 4 months ago
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Excuse me, but I just can't let this comment go: "the worst thing you can do to a Islamic terrorist, is to put underwear over his head and take a picture of it."
The Iraqi people were not "Islamic terrorists." What on earth is wrong with you that you can't get it through your head! Iraq had NOTHING to do with 9/11. The people treated so horribly were NOT 'terrorists!' They weren't charged with anything. My gawd, what does it take for people like you to wake the hell up???????
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mesodude1 year, 4 months ago
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"Sounds like they'd prefer death than have underwear over their head and photographed."
--And in some cultures I'm sure we're perceived as nutjobs for going ballistic if someone burns our flag and for holding Congressional hearings because a woman shows her bare breast on tv for 2 seconds. It's pretty cool how we get to be both the democracy spreader and the sole arbiter of what qualifies as torture. In essence, we sexually assaulted these people for fun. The bottom line is that if you wouldn't want to see that happen to Americans then we shouldn't be doing it to anyone else. Otherwise, get out of the business of nation building. Oh well..."my country, right or wrong..."
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Sabretooth1 year, 4 months ago
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Mutainia said:
"I KNOW his face can't be seen, but, hey, it MIGHT get him telling where a bomb is."
Perhaps you could link the terrorist attacks that have been thwarted by the use of torture, that may help prove your point.
I also would like to question your right to prosecute terrorists when you are a country that supports the use of terrorism globally as it suits your needs. I think it may help your cause to prosecute your own people before you start in on other countries.
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gamahuche1 year, 4 months ago
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http://newsquake.netscape.com/2008/04/21/heroes...
An interesting interview which James Marcus conducted with the director which was then also discussed on propeller.
Oddly enough I can't track the url for the discussion that ensued.
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gamahuche1 year, 4 months ago
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flyonthewallzz1 year, 4 months ago
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Lose Moral Legitimacy, Lose the War
During the Algerian war of independence between 1954 and 1962, French leaders decided to permit torture against suspected insurgents. Though they were aware that
it was against the law and morality of war, they argued that;;
1; This was a new form of war and these rules did not apply.
2; The threat the enemy represented, communism, was a great evil that justified extraordinary means.
3; The application of torture against insurgents was measured and nongratuitous.
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flyonthewallzz1 year, 4 months ago
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This official condoning of torture on the part of French Army leadership had several negative consequences. It empowered the moral legitimacy of the opposition, undermined the French moral legitimacy, and caused internal fragmentation among serving officers that led to an unsuccessful coup attempt in 1962. In the end, failure to comply with moral and legal restrictions against torture severely undermined French efforts and contributed to their loss despite several significant military victories.
Illegal and immoral activities made the counterinsurgents extremely vulnerable to enemy propaganda inside Algeria among the Muslim population, as well as in the United Nations and the French media. These actions also degraded the ethical climate throughout the French Army. France eventually recognized Algerian independence in July 1963.
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nikkibabe1 year, 4 months ago
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Quote:
"I know. Nikki likes it better when people courageously hack off people's heads with knives."
Yes, I do. If someone invades, destroys and occupies another country, that is one of the things you can expect from those who don't have F16 & B1 to blow up occupiers.
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Mutainia1 year, 4 months ago
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flyonthewallzz1 year, 4 months ago
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"Torture also has been the subject of much domestic political debate in the United States, but this debate has largely been over the legality of interrogation techniques. The debate usually misses the central point illustrated by the negative impact of international reaction to reports of torture on US foreign affairs: in counterterrorism and counterinsurgency operations, although torture may bring about some short-term tactical and operational advantages, officially or unofficially condoning its use is a major strategic blunder."
http://www.carlisle.army.mil/usawc/Parameters/0...
This one is worth reading!, and not as long as the Army Field Manual.
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mmrhe1 year, 4 months ago
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bigurn
Isn't blaming the police and commanding officer missing the point? If they were doing what they were told it really goes much higher than that does it not?
It seems your doing a good job as an apologist for the tactics described so why not just come out and say so?
Then again it would be just like the rest of the Bushies to leave someone else holding the bag!
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bigurn1 year, 4 months ago
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I'm not blaming the CO. I'm holding the CO for what happened in her command. And it's the police, because the entire prison was under the command of the Military Police Brigade.
The UCMJ is very clear here. There is no allowance for latitude while in command. All decisions begin and end with the CO, and this is understood when getting a command. A General should be able to maintain good order, and she didn't.
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nunzio19461 year, 4 months ago
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If you don't agree with the concept of torture, that's fine. To each his/her own. But don't say it doesn't work. They've been doing it for thousands of years with great success, and I've personally seen the verified proof of it while serving in Viet Nam (buried munitions to troop movements) Personally, I'm all for it, and if someone has planted a bomb, I'm not opposed to nailing his dick to the chair and pouring gas on him while holding a match, if there is the slightest chance the guy might talk. 'nuff said.
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Candida1 year, 4 months ago
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nunzio1946: "But don't say it doesn't work. They've been doing it for thousands of years with great success"
Yes, the Inquisition can testify to that. Even if it works when you torture the guilty, what do you get when you torture the innocent?
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Amazing11 year, 4 months ago
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What we allow to be done to others, we must be willing to accept towards ourselves. Many of the detainees in both Gitmo and Abu Ghraib were/are innocent of any terroristic proclivities. But I imagine they feel like being terrorists now. There was no Al Qaida in Iraq until Bush wrong headedly took us there for war and occupation so that big oil could get their hands on the Iraqi oil fields. And for this, innocent people have been tortured in the name of nothing but greed. The ordinary citizen trying to make a living is paying through the nose for the waste of our American soldiers lives, our money and the complete trashing of our reputation as a nation. I can hardly wait until this presidency is history.
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mmrhe1 year, 4 months ago
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C'mon....Don't play semantics. Blame, Holding responsible. It's the same thing!
The issue is were the tactics a part of a larger strategy ok'd and implemented by top administration officials.
The article in question makes a compelling case that indeed it was.
So how can you hold the MP's and CO responsible?
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nunzio19461 year, 4 months ago
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To the person who wrote ... "Well if that's the case, then don't bitch when it's done to you." You're missing the point ... Nobody wants to be tortured ... Just don't insult my intelligence by saying it's been proven that it doesn't work.
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bubba21 year, 4 months ago
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Sorry to "insult your intelligence", but ...
http://www.alternet.org/rights/28585/
http://progressiveaustin.org/torture.htm
http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/2008/...
http://www.sundayjournal.ie/mary-nelis/Torture-...
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Candida1 year, 4 months ago
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nunzio1946: "Just don't insult my intelligence by saying it's been proven that it doesn't work."
Oh, it does work, just not to get good reliable information. Both the Inquisition and the KGB used is very successfully to get confessions, and for that it worked excellently.
BTW, anybody who hasn't seen the movie Goya's Ghosts, really should. It came out about a year ago and is available on DVD. It's not about Iraq; the script was written before the Iraq war, but you'll be surprised by the similarities.
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nunzio19461 year, 4 months ago
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.... and by the way ... the other side does use torture. They also behead people who disagree with them, blindfold them with their hands tied behind their backs, and throw them off buildings, bury them up to their necks and stone them to death, crush ankles, and chop off limbs (just a short list)
So yeah, we put some panties on some guy's head ... I can see where you get your outrage. Like I said, if you're against it, that's fine ... but let the rest of have a little fun.
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CHAM1 year, 4 months ago
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Good Post Bubba2, I watched a guy on Book TV ( C-Span ) this morning. He is the CEO of CACI which was the Contractor (Mercenary) "civilian" soldiers outfit who participated in interrogations at ABu Gahrib from May 2003.
I looked for the same thing in that telecast, that I looked for in this article - discussion about how many detainees were tortured to death at Abu Gahrib. Jamad Al Hamadi is the best known and most documented, but he wasn't the only one tortured to death that Nov 4th night in 2003.
The CEO of CACI didn't mention it. Neither did the Book TV Moderator. I didn't see anything in this article about it either.
Why do you suppose that the dead from the torture are never mentioned, whenever we speak of Abu Gahrib?
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tiredofwhiners1 year, 4 months ago
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Comparisons to Hitler, Nazis, "torture doesn't work" etc. Goes to show if a lie is repeated often enough some people will believe it. I don't. Repeating the same tired old story (Abu Ghraib) also makes some people think it is real important in the grand scheme of things - not. If the atrocities by the terrorists, Sadaam and Bin Laden were repeated as often as this story, they would be all everyone would talk about and would unify the good people of the world against them. What is being attempted in posting this story is to make out the Americans as being evil and to be hated by the world for what they have done towards the cause of freedom. No amount of excuses for this discussion can diminish the real intent of this story that has been debated and publicized to death for such a long time now.
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ConquerorWyrm1 year, 4 months ago
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tiredofwhiners whining...
Simple:
you have your Left Wing (extreme end would be Stalinist Communism)
you have your Right Wing (extreme end would be Nazi Fascism)
current administration self-declared themselves NEO-CONS and have touted proudly their RIGHT WING beliefs.
Tell me, should we, when referring to an admittedly far right wing political party, compare them to the extreme left or should we stick with the relevant comparison and steer our characterizations to the appropriate political representation?
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bubba21 year, 4 months ago
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The "intent" of the story is to reveal the SCANDALOUS treatment of detainees in Abu Graib by our government, and that the APPROVAL of that treatment was granted ALL THE WAY FROM THE WHITE HOUSE.
No one asked to like the truth, but it IS the truth.
And - it is also VERY TRUE that torture DOES NOT WORK.
http://www.alternet.org/rights/28585/
http://progressiveaustin.org/torture.htm
http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/2008/...
http://www.sundayjournal.ie/mary-nelis/Torture-...
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Candida1 year, 4 months ago
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tiredofwhiners: "If the atrocities by the terrorists, Sadaam and Bin Laden were repeated as often as this story, they would be all everyone would talk about and would unify the good people of the world against them."
The good people of the world have always been against them. There is a difference between being against them and invading their country. There is a lot of talk these days about the atrocities in Zimbabwe. Do you want to invade them too? How about Darfur?
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nunzio19461 year, 4 months ago
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CHAM1 year, 4 months ago
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and what do you think they learned by torturing this man to death? As I recall the story, he was picked up in an area sweep conducted by the Armed forces. In that sweep, they picked up every male over 14 and some women.
One way to get the torture stopped was to finger someone present.
YOu think maybe someone pointed out Hamadi so tht they could get the torture stopped?
You think that Hamadi wouldn't accuse some innocent person just to stop the torture , knowing that after he was thru being tortured, the person he pointed out would have to face the same torture?
Would you point out anyone who has commented as a "Whatever" to get your torture stopped?
I think you would and I think I would!
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breckandy1 year, 4 months ago
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ConquerorWyrm1 year, 4 months ago
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"The atrocities committed by the terrorists were orders of magnitude more grotesque"
by what comparison?
also, define 'terrorist' for this statement
justify why this even is of issue...in other words, is some cruelty and evil allowed because others have done worse?
Is that what Christ taught?
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CHAM1 year, 4 months ago
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breckandy, remember the terrorists who cut off the heads of three soldiers after the rape of a 14 year old girl in Mumidayah and the murder of her family by the rapists?
Are those guys in Jail?
The terrorists who cut off the heads of those soldiers claimed they were doing it because of the rape and murder. Don't you remember that? Do you remember that the soldiers who had their heads cut off were from the same outfit as those who committed the rape and murder?
Are you a moral person?
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CHAM1 year, 4 months ago
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Oh by the way, the principal character in this rape murder episode, A Private Green, had his latest court date rescheduled because of a conflicting Quilt show in town.
In Paducah, Kentucky, last scheduled for April 27th, 2008 or maybe 2009, I'm not sure.
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Klarissa1 year, 4 months ago
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We have been wallowing in Abu Ghraib long enough.
Americans are human, no better and no worse that the rest of the world.
We have mean, dishonorable people, and Americans are distressed by their actions.
Do you see Muslim countries being distressed by women carrying bombs and killing innocent people?
We hold ourselves to a higher standard, Marquess of Queensbury rules, treat your enemy fairly, do unto others as you would have them do unto you - the whole nine-yards of what most of us think is right.
When Americans don't act by these precepts, we fall harder - we have a higher mountain to fall from.
It is time the we celebrate the millions of good people in this country who live their daily lives in in ways that we are proud of.
The bad are so few, and worse, it seems to the liberal goal to paint the rest of us with the sins of those few.
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CHAM1 year, 4 months ago
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Klarissa you are wrong that the Liberal crowd wants to paint America as decadent for the sins of a few. Unless-some people want to overlook what those criminals did because they might be Conservative, or Republicans, or Democrats for that matter.
What I have railed against and all who have read anything I've posted know that I call criminal, what ever is criminal. You know that I written that I thought Bill Clinton was the second worst president in US History. Just because I think Bush is worse, doesn't mean I think Clinton is now suddelnly good.
What is happening to America is that people are embracing their crook and washing him clean simply because he is of their party.
Conservatives and Republicans are not good just because they may be better than Democrats or others. A criminal is a criminal, no more, no less.
We in America need to stop this crap and look at the culprit. One that I have called the Shadow Government.
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Candida1 year, 4 months ago
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Klarissa: "We have mean, dishonorable people, and Americans are distressed by their actions."
You don't sound very distressed by them. Even now you are trying to claim that this indicates just a few bad apples, completely ignoring that this was with the knowledge and probable approval of people at the top levels.
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CHAM1 year, 4 months ago
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The Shadow Government is that Entity made of of Wealthy, Influential, Powerful people who are more interested in milking the public than they are in being American.
I am an American who cares for his country. I want my country to be the best it can be. It cannot reach that level if we suffer dishonesty simply because it comes from our political persuasion.
Klarissa I am asking you to stop being anytrhing except American. There is no pain with doing so, just an admission that someone or some group we placed on a high pedestal wasn't what we thought they were.
I said that I voted for Bush the first time. I thought that he would be the one to bring America back to moral Government that kept the fidelity intrusted unto them by the people. After the first term, I realized that I was wrong. And I said so. I had been a Republican since Goldwater.
I decided it was time to be an American. I have never thought of myself as a liberal. There must be many like me.
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