Comments for Abu Graib: What the Most Seen Photographs Say »
Posted By bubba2 1 year, 5 months ago in Arts & Entertainment'Standard Operating Procedure', the new film by Errol Morris, is the fruit of meticulous research into the ill-treatment of Iraqi detainees. Featuring numerous interviews with military personnel who served at Abu Ghraib, it leaves the viewer in little doubt that the cruelty captured on camera was authorized at the highest levels in Washington.
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nikkibabe1 year, 5 months ago
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This will put to shame not only Bush, Cheney, Rice & Powell BUT all the Americans who supported and still support the invasion and occupation of a country.
It is the worst a civilized UN member nation can do to another country. The UN was formed to prevent just this kind of "HITLER & NAZI" head rising again in the civilized world.
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bigurn1 year, 5 months ago
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Y'know, I had a guess about how many comments it would take to get to "Nazi" or "Hitler". Nikki, you blew it away. Comment #1! What an accomplishment! That's the kind of calm intellectual discourse we need on Propeller.
The incidents at the Abu Gharib were a stain on our military police. The commanding officer was legitimately relieved of command, and positive changes made.
The atrocities committed by the terrorists were orders of magnitude more grotesque, and orders of magnitude more common. Comments like Nikki's weaken our resolve and help the terrorists.
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ConquerorWyrm1 year, 5 months ago
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Apologist!
You state that the incidents at Abu Gharib were a stain on our military police and that the commanding officer was relieved of command...what? And you speak of intellectual discourse when your primacy of importance is how long it takes before a reference to the most notable and memorable, the standard bearer of, Right Wing political regime...what a crock!
1st: what about the private contractors involved? what about the chain of command up to where the issue originated (white house)? isn't Responsibility a virtue cherished anymore?
2nd: This was a stain on America due to the unpatriotic actions of those who ORDERED the systematic abuse.
3rd: you want to justify this by saying "but gee, they do bad things too..." WTF! moral relativist!
4th: when speaking of an admittedly (& proudly so) 'right wing' political organization, to whom should you reference? the standard bearer of the OPPOSITE? Stalin? No, you reference the appropriate political faction.
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Sabretooth1 year, 5 months ago
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"Comments like Nikki's weaken our resolve and help the terrorists."
It is actually comments like these that help the terrorists. Your comment shows that you no longer value the moral high ground and have become that which you claim to hate...a terrorist nation.
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mesodude1 year, 5 months ago
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"The incidents at the Abu Gharib were a stain on our military police. "
--The incidents were a stain on America and contributed to the rest of the international community's skepticism of our motives for invading. Some underlings took the fall, the world saw that not only was the spreading democracy excuse a total sham but we didn't even take advantage of the opportunity to show we're serious about justice and severely punish those involved. Sad.
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Lincoln851 year, 5 months ago
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what a shame, that the media focused on that, and not the support of the troops. I am not saying it should not have been reported...but focus on support of the troops or the mission was not the agenda. Within a week or two of 911, Hillary and her ilk were demanding to know what Bush knew and how long he had known it. How transparent was that..less than a year after Gore lost.
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Candida1 year, 5 months ago
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I think you should check your sources more carefully. After 9/11, not only the Democrats but the whole world was supporting America and even Bush. Even in the ramp-up to the Iraq war, the whole of the US seemed to be completely blind and deaf to the lies and deceptions. I found it shocking that very few in the Congress, Senate or the media ever questioned anything. It seemed as if everybody in the US were under a spell.
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Mutainia1 year, 5 months ago
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One thing I learned about this, is that, the worst thing you can do to a Islamic terrorist, is to put underwear over his head and take a picture of it. Sounds like they'd prefer death than have underwear over their head and photographed. I'm thinking that, instead of water-boarding, why not threaten to put them naked in a pyramid, or, put underwear over their head and take a picture. I KNOW his face can't be seen, but, hey, it MIGHT get him telling where a bomb is.
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bubba21 year, 5 months ago
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Both of you just never have gotten it ...
The VAST majority of the people in Abu Graib and Gitmo have NEVER been charged with ANYTHING because NO one has any EVIDENCE that they ever did anything wrong, let alone were involved in any "terrorist" activity!
You also apparently are totally ignorant regarding torture, because it is WRONG - period. It does NOT matter who does it. Especially because our country is SUPPOSED to be a democracy and a country that UPHOLDS the equal rights of others, we only DEMEAN ourselves by lowing our standards to those of our enemies.
You both should have applied for jobs at those facilities - I'm sure that the administration would have hired you in a heartbeat considering your attitudes.
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Locky12Comment removed: Spammer, Abusive47 Replies
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Mutainia1 year, 5 months ago
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Hey, bubba. IF there is strong reason to suspect that ONE of these guys knows where a bomb is to, like, oh, strap on to a retarded women to go off in an Iraqi PET store, killing innocent Shiite children in the process, I say, "Surfs UP!!!"
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Mutainia1 year, 5 months ago
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IF torture doesn't keep us finding out where a bomb is to keep New York from going up, then, I agree, don't torture. Personally, I don't do well with pain. I don't think it would take much to get ME spilling the beans on something. Good thing I'm not working for Mr. Al Qaeda. I'd probably say SCREW Quran 3:28 and 16:106! I mean, NO "holy Islamic lying" (al-taqqiya) on MY part!!! I'm telling the CIA where that friggen BOMB is!
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Sabretooth1 year, 5 months ago
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"I don't think it would take much to get ME spilling the beans on something. Good thing I'm not working for Mr. Al Qaeda."
I am sorry but i do not believe you are innocent so we are going to need to keep torturing you. I am quite confident that the information i got on your terrorist activity from the guy whose parking spot you stole is accurate. It is just a matter of time before you tell me what i want to hear. Sorry also for the fact i will not be able to let you go since now you are most definitely an enemy of my people.
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jordan111 year, 5 months ago
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Excuse me, but I just can't let this comment go: "the worst thing you can do to a Islamic terrorist, is to put underwear over his head and take a picture of it."
The Iraqi people were not "Islamic terrorists." What on earth is wrong with you that you can't get it through your head! Iraq had NOTHING to do with 9/11. The people treated so horribly were NOT 'terrorists!' They weren't charged with anything. My gawd, what does it take for people like you to wake the hell up???????
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ConquerorWyrm1 year, 5 months ago
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"CIA agents dressed as Sunnis DRESSED as Shiites"
Not sure about CIA but there were some British SAS boys busted doing just that...not to mention the tens of thousands of steroid junkie private contractors operating totally unregulated...and if 'black flag' operations didn't exist, why would we have a term for them.
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Sabretooth1 year, 5 months ago
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"Who are those who set off bombs on the side of the road and blow up Iraqi Shiite children in pet stores?"
My God, please don't tell me someone as misinformed as you is allowed to vote? I think you need to start reading something other then American propaganda channels.
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Mutainia1 year, 5 months ago
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In a cowardly way, I did, HURTing my credibility in the process. Had I followed THOU shalt NOT Lie, (like the BIBLE commands), instead of something more in line with the Qu'ran (surahs 3:28 and 16:106)... I would have been a GREATER and more NOBLE man in MY estimation, atleast. But, tain't no time machine, so, I now have to live with my folly and hope for faulty memories.
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bubba21 year, 5 months ago
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MOST of those bombers are IRAQIs. They are waging a CIVIL WAR and have been for the last 3 years.
We are the occupiers and they want the occupiers OUT!
BEFORE we invaded Iraq, there were not street-side suicide bombs going off every day, and there was no sectarian violence.
When the Bush administration capture Saddam and then let his ENTIRE army go, it all went downhill from there and the administration had NO plan and did NOTHING to stop the spiral into chaos and sectarian violence.
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Mutainia1 year, 5 months ago
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Personally, I'm surprised that things aren't much worse. I mean, not ONLY do they believe in a book, the Qu'ran, that alienates them from those who DON'T do five times a day of butt in the air, but, the first Bush left them in the lurch to die at the hands of Saddam's helicopter gunships when they could have easilly been shot down by our air-force. But, the first Bush just HAD to follow the orders of Saudi Arabia and NOT shoot down anything that wasn't fixed wing air-craft. When I heard that Bush and company were expecting flowers to greet our troops, I cringed. I mean, after the big let down in 1991? REALLY?!?!
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jordan111 year, 5 months ago
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Who are those who set off bombs on the side of the road and blow up Iraqi Shiite children in pet stores? >>>>>
Sunni's for all you know. Iraqi Sunni's. Not 'terrorists' who attacked us. They're fighting each other, yanno. The Shias and the Sunni's. Both want power against the other. And if by chance they were al qaeda, WE LET THEM IN!!! WE didn't protect the borders! They come from Saudi Arabia. Just walk right on across the border, they do. But the fact is, they weren't there before WE got there. And the majority of those mistreated were NOT al qaeda, if any at all were.
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bigurn1 year, 5 months ago
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They were Ba'athist thugs, Iranian agents, Mahdi Army, and Sadrist criminals. If this sounds like a glee club to you, let me know.
Let me help you: By the time we needed a prison in Abu Gharib, we were in a shooting war with a broad definition of "insurgent" groups. They were blowing things up, including themselves, and inflicting terror on the general population. What would you call people who inflict terror weapons on others?
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jordan111 year, 5 months ago
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You're full of it. I'll take the word of people who were so disgusted with what we were doing, & who had nothing to gain from stepping forward, & who were THERE. Here's one of MANY.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/may/07/ira...
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bronk771 year, 5 months ago
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You don't charge them with anything. You throw their asses in a hole and leave them there. They were picked up on the battlefield in the act of trying to kill our GI's! When the hell are people like you gonna wake up??????
"My gawd, what does it take for people like you to wake the hell up???????"
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Candida1 year, 5 months ago
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bronk77,
What does it take for people like you to wake up? The majority of people who were held in Gitmo has already been released without being charged with anything. Is your administration so incompetent that it releases people who have been picked up on the battlefield in the act of trying to kill your GIs?
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mesodude1 year, 5 months ago
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"Sounds like they'd prefer death than have underwear over their head and photographed."
--And in some cultures I'm sure we're perceived as nutjobs for going ballistic if someone burns our flag and for holding Congressional hearings because a woman shows her bare breast on tv for 2 seconds. It's pretty cool how we get to be both the democracy spreader and the sole arbiter of what qualifies as torture. In essence, we sexually assaulted these people for fun. The bottom line is that if you wouldn't want to see that happen to Americans then we shouldn't be doing it to anyone else. Otherwise, get out of the business of nation building. Oh well..."my country, right or wrong..."
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Sabretooth1 year, 5 months ago
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Mutainia said:
"I KNOW his face can't be seen, but, hey, it MIGHT get him telling where a bomb is."
Perhaps you could link the terrorist attacks that have been thwarted by the use of torture, that may help prove your point.
I also would like to question your right to prosecute terrorists when you are a country that supports the use of terrorism globally as it suits your needs. I think it may help your cause to prosecute your own people before you start in on other countries.
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Candida1 year, 5 months ago
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Mutainia: "I say, try just about ANYthing, if it saves people from either being killed"
You see, here is the stumbling block: "if it saves people." You never know ahead of time whether it would save anybody since you may be torturing an innocent person.
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Mutainia1 year, 5 months ago
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Which is why one should never torture ANYone unless you are a hundred percent certain that the one you have in your custody KNOWS the where-a-bouts of a bomb. THOSE are the ones I'm saying "SURFS UP!!" to. Thank God Muslims see drawing pictures of Muhammad as worse than being waterboarded, allowing one to bring the doubt down to atleast 90 percent certain for such "torture"...drawing pictures of Muhammad, I'm advocating.
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gamahuche1 year, 5 months ago
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http://newsquake.netscape.com/2008/04/21/heroes...
An interesting interview which James Marcus conducted with the director which was then also discussed on propeller.
Oddly enough I can't track the url for the discussion that ensued.
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gamahuche1 year, 5 months ago
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Codi69341 year, 5 months ago
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HannibalBarca1 year, 5 months ago
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Codi69341 year, 5 months ago
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No not the new terrorist, just adapting to meet the need. Yes, it is a dangerous path, I agree. But we do have brave men/women that can do just that. But, we most bring them back into the fold once their job is completed and not treat them as outsiders. The same we did with our WWII veterans. Welcome home , we don't care what you did the war is over, we won!
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Mutainia1 year, 5 months ago
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Personally, I feel all this insanity can end if the Ka'aba in Mecca is taken out with conventional cruise and buried in the remains of pigs and their poop. Sure it would ****** off the terrorists BIG time. They'd want to rise up and set off nukes in our cities, but, as the hours ticked by, I think it might dawn on them that the god (Allah), that supposedly created the universe just by saying "be", couldn't keep "His House", from being destroyed and defiled in such away where terrorists all over the world would then be bowing down to the remains of pigs and their poop. In the process, it might dawn on them that ALL of Mecca is touchable, and, if an Islamic nuke goes off in New York City, the defiling of the Ka'aba would just be the fuse to far worse.
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Mutainia1 year, 5 months ago
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But, fair warning and mercy was shown by LETTING them know ahead of time that, such a defiling showed Allah impotent, and, if so, it might, MIGHT make them question whether or not a slothful brothel in the sky really awaits them after all IF they seek revenge for such a defilement of Allah's house. In the prophecy of Islam, the Ka'aba isn't destroy
until AT the end of the world...NOT by what was mentioned above, but, by a greedy, black, bald, spindly Ethiopian, looking for gold under it.
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Candida1 year, 5 months ago
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Candida1 year, 5 months ago
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You are intolerant toward their religion. How would you like some foreigners to tell you how you should live and what you should believe in? Would you sit idly by if some foreigners occupied and looted your country? Islam is not the problem, a lot of historical events are. I don't like any religion, but as far as I'm concerned you can believe in anything you like. You deny the same courtesy to them.
When people interfere in other people's lives, they tend to be resented. I know you are not necessarily advocating physical violence, but you are advocating the elimination of their religion. As a Christian, how would you like it if others desecrated some of your religious icons?
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Codi69341 year, 5 months ago
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Where is your proof of looting? Islam is not the problem, but Radical Islam is. Christianity does not preach killing non-believers. It teaches tolerance. Which Islam is really lacking. I believe you can worship a folk, I don't care. But when you believe that folk is telling you kill non-believers. That is were I have a problem with your religion.
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Mutainia1 year, 5 months ago
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Well, Codi, you can find out by reading Qu'ran 9:1-5, 29 and 30 just for starters. IF you read them, can you tell us if this DOESN'T still apply? I bring this up to Muslims and they try to make it sound like the stoning to death of sinners and killing of Caananites in the Old Testament. In otherwords, they try to make it sound like HISTORIC events in the Quran. But, read just THOSE passages, for starters, and, let us know if it just sounds like history, ONLY, and NOT something that can still apply after "forbidden months have passed".
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DropkickaLib1 year, 5 months ago
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Candida1 year, 5 months ago
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No, I don't. All I ask of Christians is that they not try to convert me and my family, and that they do not mix state and religious affairs. Whom they worship and how is none of my business.
I dislike all religions because of the hatred they spread everywhere. They all preach peace, but they are not very shy about killing each other over minuscule differences in the way they worship their various deities. God is always on their side, all their sides.
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Mutainia1 year, 5 months ago
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I don't know about that, Candida. I think your hatred is actually stronger for a faith whose followers believe you are going to hell than for a faith whose followers are commanded to SEND you to hell if you don't believe like them.
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Candida1 year, 5 months ago
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I do hate hypocrisy, war, aggression, injustice, and many other things, but I don't hate Christians. To me all religions are pretty well the same. There are a few exceptions, which are more peaceful and of which I know little, but Christianity is not one of them.
I don't care about the afterlife. I'll deal with it when I get there. Christians have, indeed, threatened me with hell, but no Muslim has ever tried to send me there. I don't know what their religion commanded them to do, but not a single one of them showed any ill-will toward me, not even those who knew for sure that I am an atheist.
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Mutainia1 year, 5 months ago
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"To me all religions are pretty well the same." I agree. Except when it comes to fundamentalist Islam.
"There are a few exceptions, which are more peaceful and of which I know little, but Christianity is not one of them." What? Explain?
"I don't care about the afterlife. I'll deal with it when I get there. Christians have, indeed, threatened me with hell," Christians can't send you to hell, and it's against the Bible for them to SEND you there (i.e. perform something like Quran 9:1-5).
"but no Muslim has ever tried to send me there." Do you live under Sharia Law? Not yet, I bet.
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Mutainia1 year, 5 months ago
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"I don't know what their religion commanded them to do, but not a single one of them showed any ill-will toward me," Me neither... yet. Have you read their comments on YouTube? Have you SEEN what they post about Jews and non-Muslims in their accounts? It doesn't take much digging to find out what they think of you and those who feel they are free to NOT have their butt up in the air, fives times a day. It's actually chilling.
"not even those who knew for sure that I am an atheist." You should read the Islamic writings of what is planned for atheists when Sharia Law is impossed.
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Candida1 year, 5 months ago
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Mutainia: "You should read the Islamic writings of what is planned for atheists when Sharia Law is impossed."
Sharia law, or any other religious law for that matter, will not be imposed on me if I can help it. I firmly believe in the separation of church and state and fight for it when necessary. Religion belongs to the churches, mosques, temples, whatever, not in the legislature and the courts.
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Mutainia1 year, 5 months ago
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That could all change if an Islamic nuke goes off in one of the cities of the free
world. If such a thing happened, many people would fear going to work thinking that another
nuke could be about to go off in their own (that right there would bring the West to it's knees).
To keep that from happening, and, fearing that the destruction and defilement of the Ka'aba
would only make it more likely FOR another nuke to go off, say, in NYC (personally, I feel it
would do the opposite), Obama, or, whoever is President, could capitulate by flying the Islamic
flag over the White House, followed by imposing Shariah Law to show the seriousness of wanting
to keep another nuke from going off and keeping the "statis quo".
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Mutainia1 year, 5 months ago
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Then, in the process, places
of debates like Netscape and YouTube, are shut down for too many expressing "racist hate speech"
toward Islam (those like "investigateislam" have already been yanked off through flagging,
making it so IF they continue to be pulled off, you can see them on "Muhammadtube" .RICH
Shiek money pays those for the where-a-bouts of those most critical of Islam IN things LIKE
YouTube and Propeller, and, then, the only people who YOU, sir, would get to talk to from then
on, wouldn't be me, but, people like Daylight, wasntme, Markollar and Hyperbola, and probably
ONLY them, even though I don't think Markollar is a Muslim. Think I'm just paranoid? How soon
we forget what happened in Germany, the Soviet Union, and Red China. And TWO of those OUT-lawed religion.
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Candida1 year, 5 months ago
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Mutainia: "How soon we forget what happened in Germany, the Soviet Union, and Red China. And TWO of those OUT-lawed religion.
How soon indeed. What you forgot is that all that came from within, not from an outside source, and it is happening to the US through the manipulation of fear.
Do you consider your country so cowardly that a single atomic bomb would force it to its knees? My country is much smaller, and we have no nukes at all, but I'm pretty sure we wouldn't give up that quickly.
BTW, Daylight, wasntme, Markollar and Hyperbola all belong to their own individual categories. There is very little that's common in them. None of them is fond of Israel, but that's about it.
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Mutainia1 year, 5 months ago
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"You are intolerant toward their religion." You're kidding? :)
"How would you like some foreigners to tell you how you should live and what you should believe in?" If it was better than what I had, I GO for it.
"Would you sit idly by if some foreigners occupied and looted your country?" Well, I wouldn't strap on a bomb and kill my neighbors, thinking it would lead me to a slothful brothel in the sky.
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Mutainia1 year, 5 months ago
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"Islam is not the problem, a lot of historical events are." NOT the problem? Have you ever bothered to read the Qu'ran and the Hadith?
"I don't like any religion, but as far as I'm concerned you can believe in anything you like." You must not be a Muslim. OR you are performing taqqiya right now and are LYING about saying I can believe anything I like.
"You deny the same courtesy to them." Have you actually read Qu'ran 9:1-5, 29 and 30? WHO is the one denying the courtesy to believe in what they want to believe here?
"When people interfere in other people's lives, they tend to be resented." How about when they slam planes into buildings or threaten to kill those who name a Teddy Bear after their prophet?
"I know you are not necessarily advocating physical violence, but you are advocating the elimination of their religion." Yeah, you got me there.
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Mutainia1 year, 5 months ago
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"As a Christian, how would you like it if others desecrated some of your religious icons?" I probably wouldn't like it, but, my religion tells me to pray for those who despitefully use me, to repay evil with good, to actually LOVE my enemies. Of course, it also says to "hold not the sword in vain", so, if Nazis, or Muslims, are going to gas someone, or, carve off some guy's head for not going along with THEIR evil agenda, and, I've got a gun, and I'm a good aim, and that knife is being drawn on that NON-evil agenda following guy's neck, well, GUESS what's going to happen to that Nazi, or Muslim?
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Candida1 year, 5 months ago
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Mutainia: "How about when they slam planes into buildings"
That wasn't Islam, that was a bunch of terrorists. Is Christianity responsible for every terrorist act committed by Christians? Before you say that Christians don't do such things, just think: Northern Ireland.
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"or threaten to kill those who name a Teddy Bear after their prophet?"
Their intolerance doesn't justify yours. They hate you and you hate them. It's a draw.
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Mutainia1 year, 5 months ago
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Can you point ANYwhere in my conversations where I direct my hate at the poor guy trapped into this satanic religion? ANYwhere where I've directed my hate at a Muslim? I can point you to those where Muslims have expressed great hatred toward me. I don't know how many times I've been called stupid and a liar by them. Muhairi8 even posted a story on Netscape, accusing me of being a liar, yet, never ONCE showed evidence for such accusations.
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Candida1 year, 5 months ago
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No, you don't attack the individual, you just imply that they are all liars, and you attack the foundations of their religion. I don't think Christians would like it very much either if people called Christianity a satanic religion. Can't you see the parallels?
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Mutainia1 year, 5 months ago
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"No, you don't attack the individual, you just imply that they are all liars", It's not THEIR fault that I do. It's Qu'ran 3:28 and 16:106's.
"and you attack the foundations of their religion." Can't argue with you there.
"I don't think Christians would like it very much either if people called Christianity a satanic religion." True, but, hey, IF someone is going to call Christianity such a thing, like I do with Islam, I want them to provide the evidence FOR such a statement, like I do with Islam, so we can study the matter and see if the guy is presenting such evidence as valid in his charge. I mean, evidence got me out or Mormonism, and, I was pretty dang devout.
"Can't you see the parallels?" Ahh... no. I mean, I didn't believe Mormonism was screwy AT all, until I saw evidence. When the evidence was over-whelming, I jumped off THAT boat... and "swam to Christianity".
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Candida1 year, 5 months ago
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Mutainia1 year, 5 months ago
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I don't really have a religion. I'm pretty much a free agent, Saved by grace. Still, though, I don't want to tempt my Lord to wrath by acting like a fool. I've learned it's GOOD to keep one's nose clean. Sure, I do things to please God, but, I know that whatever good I'm doing ISN'T going to get me to Heaven. It IS, however, pleasurable to try to help others, when they ask for it.
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Candida1 year, 5 months ago
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Mutainia1 year, 5 months ago
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I consider myself a Pauline Dispensationalist, which is a type of Christian who holds a Calvinistic view of Salvation. But, I am different than the typical Calvinist due to my belief in a final universal salvation for all. You ask "IS any religion better than Christianity?" Well, that depends on what you mean by better. I mean, Islam is far better than Christianity and MOST religions, when it comes to getting one to put his butt up in the air five times a day. What you probably mean, is, "IS Jesus Christ the only way to Heaven?" IF you asked me that, I'd say, "Yes, that's what I believe."
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Candida1 year, 5 months ago
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My question was a follow-up on your statement that if someone offered a better religion, you'd go for it. If none of them is better in your judgment, how could could they? Muslims probably think the same way. No religion is better than theirs, so it doesn't matter what you offer to them. Especially if the "offer" is backed up by guns, as is the case in Iraq and Afghanistan.
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Mutainia1 year, 5 months ago
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Oh, I didn't know what you meant. To me, Christianity and Islam are like matter and
anti-matter. Actually, ANY religion that isn't Islam and is mixed with Shariah Lawed Islam, is
a matter-anti-matter mixture. I feel that Islam was able to live peaceful in the past ONLY
because many of it's followers couldn't read. It wasn't until the 1920's with the "Society of
The Muslim Brothers" (Muslim Brotherhood founded in Egypt) that surahs 9:1-5 began to be
discovered and practiced. So, IF you are saying that if things were reversed and it was IRAQ
that invaded America, yeah, you're right, I don't see that as peaceful. I mean, ask ANY Muslim
what it is that they LOVE about Islam, and, guess what? They won't answer you. Oh, they MIGHT
say, "it centers me."
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Mutainia1 year, 5 months ago
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But, when you consider all the hours, days, weeks, YEARS of their life
to stop, pull out a prayer rug and bow in what they THINK is the direction of Mecca, when, in
actuality, they should be standing on their head if they are in America, they remain silent.
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Candida1 year, 5 months ago
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Mutainia: "I feel that Islam was able to live peaceful in the past ONLY because many of it's followers couldn't read."
I think it's just the opposite. I think they are deliberately kept ignorant by their leader and that's how they control them. I know quite a few educated Muslims from around the world, and they are peaceful people. Some of them do pray five times a day and some don't, but that's their business, isn't it?
No, they don't remain silent if you ask them about Islam. Just read the posts of Daylight when he is talking about religion. He goes on and on about God's wonderful creations and how we owe our devotion to God. Frankly, to me, he sounds just like the Christians. He doesn't talk about Jesus, but otherwise, his view of the world is quite similar.
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Candida1 year, 5 months ago
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Here are a few Muslims talking about a variety of issues. Judge for yourself whether they fit your preconceived ideas.
http://www.tvo.org/cfmx/tvoorg/theagenda/index....
(click on Watch Video on the right hand side)
http://www.tvo.org/cfmx/tvoorg/theagenda/index....
(click on the Maclean's complainants)
http://www.pbs.org/weta/crossroads/about/show_f...
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Mutainia1 year, 5 months ago
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I'm pretty sure that what you presented shows Muslims in a very positive light. And, they could very well be peaceful and harm-less. My problem isn't with Muslims, sir. It's with the Qu'ran that has HIGHLY alienating scriptures (allowing for breaking of peace treaties and killing those until they accept Islam, surah 9:1-5, 29, 30). It's this, PLUS the fact that it has Quran 3:28 and 16:106 in it, allowing someone who THINKS he's a Muslim and THINKS those who AREN'T good Muslims, but, infidels, should be killed, and, this same guy can LIE and act like he's PEACEFUL, when he actually views the world divided between peace and war where "war is deceit". THAT'S what I'm alerting people to. The dangerous, evil, reality that the Qu'ran can create, HURTING those Muslims who ARE peaceful, by creating mis-trust between them and how they view NON-Muslims. It's not MY fault, it's not YOUR fault, it's not even the terrorist MUSLIM's fault...it's... the QU'RAN's!
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Candida1 year, 5 months ago
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No, I don't think so. It is the terrorists' fault. Millions of Muslims follow the Koran and they live peacefully. I'm definitely an infidel and I walk among hundreds of Muslims most weekends, and it never occurs to me to be afraid.
I don't doubt that the Koran has some scary parts, but so does the Bible. I know, I know, it's the Old Testament, but it is still a sacred book for the Christians.
If you look at the history of a few thousand years, you'll find Jews massacring others, and others massacring Jews, and Jews massacring each other, and others massacring each other, and then others killing Christians, and Christians killing each other, and Christians killing others, and then the Muslims joined in, and so on. It wasn't such a long time ago when I would have been burned at the stake by Christians for being a heretic.
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Mutainia1 year, 5 months ago
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From my study of the Qu'ran, a true Muslim is Bin Laden and and TRUE Islam is that followed by the Taliban. You THINK you are surrounded by Muslims, but, it's hard to tell if they really are Muslims, even if they SAY they are. I mean, in pre-war Iraq, how many Shiites and Kurds really actually loved Saddam? Oh, they SAID they loved Saddam when around a possible Sunnis FOR Saddam, but, it was probably because they never knew who was a plant to get them to talk so the plant could inform and the Kurdish or Shiite's child would be wood chipped. Islam seems to rule the "Muslim", the same way Stalin, or Hitler ruled Russia. To me, it's TERROR that keeps the Muslims doing five times a day of butt in the air. A mixture of terror of those who might actually be REAL Muslims, and, the terror that awaits them IF there is an actual Allah and they are "slack in daily prayers". http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=EH327oLvcos
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Mutainia1 year, 5 months ago
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It's hard to tell if it WOULD embolden the terrorists. Whenever I bring this up to a Muslim, he totally ignores it. I guess it's like a faithful Christian being asked how he'd respond if the bones of Jesus Christ were found, including the bones of his wife and children.
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foksipayne1 year, 5 months ago
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Yes they ignore it when mentioned. But think if you actually put the bones of Christ and his family on the alter of a fully faithful Christian church, they may actually become physically violent and kick you a** out of their church.
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foksipayne1 year, 5 months ago
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i don't know, nobody has put bones on the alter and said they were Christ's. My point is, you have no clue how someone will react until something happens. I'm sure the terrorists didn't expect Bush to authorize the invasion of a totally DIFFERENT country when they attacked OUR home. I KNOW its not what America expected...
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Mutainia1 year, 5 months ago
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He would have eventually attacked Iraq even IF 9/11 hadn't happened. It was in the planning stages with Chalabi and Bill Clinton. As a matter of fact, how soon we forget that it was Bill Clinton who attacked Iraq for about 4 days in 1998 in something called "Operation: Desert Fox". And, as far as I can tell, the Dems and Libs were beHIND such an attack. Of course, the Repubicans thought it was to divert away from Monicagate.
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foksipayne1 year, 5 months ago
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Well, I don't remember he circumstances behind that ( I was just out of High school, and sowing my wild oats), but since we are talking of the CURRENT situation, The main thing that upsets me about it, is the fact that American people were lied to in order for the whole to agree on it. And The torture was hidden in the beginning, because SOMEONE KNEW IT WAS WRONG. Dispite the fact that we may have gotten some useful info, alot of the "suspected" have been released, so innocents were harmed. Does that not make you feel a little stupid for thinking torture is 'cool'?
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foksipayne1 year, 5 months ago
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Ok I went back thru the whole thing and you didn't SAY it was 'cool' . I didn't mean to quote it the first time and I only meant that (I thought) you were THINKING it because it took alot of back and forth before you finally stated "Which is why one should never torture ANYone unless you are a hundred percent certain that the one you have in your custody KNOWS the where-a-bouts of a bomb." I still think tht the underwear on the head is immature, and If they are going to tell, I think locking them in a dark whole and telling them that they're never getting out, well that would open MY mouth, if I knew anything.
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Mutainia1 year, 5 months ago
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I know what you mean. Personally, I think it was a group, feeling bored, getting carried away with cameras, wanting to do something "funny" and "arty" with people under their control, and, it allowed the enemies of America to cry "victim-hood", and RUN with it. It was stupid and wrong, sure, but, in my book, not wrong enough to destroy those guards (NO possible terrorist's face was shown in the pictures that I saw), and it certainly was NOT wrong enough to free possible terrorists from custody. I don't think ANY of those guards should have served time. Relieved and posted with other duty, but, a CRIMINAL offense? That's a laugh.
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ConquerorWyrm1 year, 5 months ago
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Mutainia1 year, 5 months ago
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Candida1 year, 5 months ago
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Mutainia1 year, 5 months ago
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They'd probably think they missed the Rapture, think they were in the Great Tribulation and wonder when the Mark of the Beast was about to be set up. Oh, wait, I bet you think they'd start carving off heads, mind-lessly crying "Jesus is Great!" in the process, true? Probably start flying planes into the tall buildings of Dubai SHOUTING "Jesus is Great!" while DOING it, true? Because ALL religious people must be insane to you, TRUE? NO difference between Islam and Christianity, just evil people is all? :)
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Candida1 year, 5 months ago
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Mutainia1 year, 5 months ago
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ConquerorWyrm1 year, 5 months ago
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hmmm, haven't read those passages, but I'd venture to say shredding a bunch of boys 'cause they laughed at a bald man or nuking 2 towns, men, women and tiny little babies, because everyone in those 2 towns (men, women and tiny little babies) wanted to have homosexual relations with asexual angels both work as pretty tough scenarios from which to start judging such atrocities.
Oh, and don't forget to mourn for the ghosts of Canaan
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Candida1 year, 5 months ago
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By terror? Just as he could harden the Paraoh's heart, he could have softened it so he would have said "yes" the first time he was asked. God didn't care about the religion of the Egyptians, all he cared about were the descendants of Abraham.
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DropkickaLib1 year, 5 months ago
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Also the phrase "God hardened Pharoah's heart" is used once in Exodus but it also says that Pharaoh heardened his own heart in another verse:
Pharaoh's heart became hard (Ex 7:13, 23)
Pharaoh hardened his heart (Ex 8:15, 32)
God hardened Pharaoh's heart (Ex 9:7, 10:20)
It may be a matter of translation when it says that God did it. My personal opinion is that Pharaoh did it himself and God realized that this was going to happen and planned accordingly.
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Mutainia1 year, 5 months ago
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And HOW did the believers control those bears to kill those boys? HOW did those believers get God to desyroy those two cities? God DID command the Hebrews to kill the Canaanites, but, WHERE is it in the Bible for Jews and Christians to kill non-believers in THIS day and age? WHERE is it in the Bible where a scripture would equal that of Quran 9:1-5, 29, and 30 and to LIE about those passages, thanks to Quran 3:28 and 16:106, totally going against the Bible's command to NOT Lie?
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ConquerorWyrm1 year, 5 months ago
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Why I believe your plan would fail...
Well first, I need to know your true motives: Are you a) wanting to cause further hatred and future conflict or if you are seeking to establish a respectful peace wherein the best of each cultured could strive.
If you are wanting to cause further hatred and destruction, you plan will not fail. It will work like gang-busters. Where has such boasting, such insolence ever prevailed with positive results? Name me once.
If you are seeking to establish a legacy of peace and prosperity, your plan is a miserable failure. Why? To start...slapping your neighbor is never a good way to get their trust...it is immoral to subjugate another for any reason, much less any touted as acts associated with faith...an oppressed people never sits still for long and any realist would realize that the resources of the U.S. are depleted through corporate theft and this war...leaving the U.S. vulnerable
how is that?
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Mutainia1 year, 5 months ago
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"Well first, I need to know your true motives: Are you a) wanting to cause further hatred and future conflict or if you are seeking to establish a respectful peace wherein the best of each cultured could strive." The later.
If you are wanting to cause further hatred and destruction, you plan will not fail. It will work like gang-busters." Nuking Mecca without first trying to experiment with the Ka'aba? You're probably right.
"Where has such boasting, such insolence ever prevailed with positive results? Name me once." How was WWII ended?
"If you are seeking to establish a legacy of peace and prosperity, your plan is a miserable failure. Why? To start...slapping your neighbor is never a good way to get their trust... it is immoral to subjugate another for any reason, much less any touted as acts associated with faith..." Sounds like you're anti-Islam right there.
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Mutainia1 year, 5 months ago
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"an oppressed people never sits still for long" being forced to have your ass up in the air five times a day, EVERY day, for ALL your life, or pay the jizyah (pole tax) or WORSE... ISN'T oppressive? Poor people in Islam have been forced to deal with THAT kind of oppression for over a thousand years now. HAVE they risen up? Maybe to protest cartoons or a Teddy Bear named Muhammad.
"and any realist would realize that the resources of the U.S. are depleted through corporate theft and this war...leaving the U.S. vulnerable how is that?" Thanks to taqqiya (lying in Islam where a good Muslim can't be differentiated from those who'd set off a bomb), it probably won't get better any time soon.
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foksipayne1 year, 5 months ago
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"But we do have brave men/women that can do just that. But, we most bring them back into the fold once their job is completed and not treat them as outsiders"
I'm sure that will help with the GI suicide rate...
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/01/29/eveni...
... I do not agree that they should be alienated for following orders, when they most likely don't have the whole story, as was in the case of the Iraqi invasion.
But sure lets try it and see if the world doesn't come to an end, a whole lot faster...
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Candida1 year, 5 months ago
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Codi6934: "No not the new terrorist, just adapting to meet the need. Yes, it is a dangerous path, I agree. But we do have brave men/women that can do just that."
If you behave like them, then you are like them. This is not a question of bravery. If you become scum, then you remains scum.
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Codi69341 year, 5 months ago
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What we don't know is what info did we get from them. It might have worked. But that info is classified and will be for years. I am not defending there action. But we have people that do this work for a living. Using a Reserve unit, immature,untrained, and not well supervised was not good nor professional. We have people that do that and do it well. Don't put boys in to do a man's job.
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Candida1 year, 5 months ago
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bigurn1 year, 5 months ago
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I continue to marvel at the lack of understanding on this site. Codi makes a very good point that I reinforce at some peril: Winning a conflict means that you often have to become a different person that your friends would know. It is not a Boy Scout meeting. The only difference between them and us is training, discipline and ideals.
Kids, killing is killing. It's not noble, it's brutal. It has a sweet-bitter odor. It's not fun, but it's largely necessary to achieve victory.
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flyonthewallzz1 year, 5 months ago
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"Kids, killing is killing. It's not noble, it's brutal. It has a sweet-bitter odor. It's not fun, but it's largely necessary to achieve victory."
True enough: but by itself it will fail. There are other important steps to achieve victory. And from what I have been reading about counterinsurgencies the stuff that was done at Abu Graib set us back significantly and put our folks in more danger.
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ConquerorWyrm1 year, 5 months ago
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I marvel as well, though in how some can be so easily drawn in to rail against a shifting and undefined 'enemy', to offer support for actions vile and wicked with but the justification that "they do it" or "they're evil".
You and Codi have obviously never studied either history nor strategy...otherwise your comments would reflect such and they do not...they instead expose a knee-jerk reactionary impulse directed against vague and undefined 'enemies'.
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Candida1 year, 5 months ago
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bigurn: "The only difference between them and us is training, discipline and ideals."
It is really just the ideals that make the difference. Although there is also a difference in training an discipline, they, in themselves, would just make you more efficient killers. The point is, that if you behave like them, then you no longer have any claim to those noble ideals, and you have become them. Perhaps more efficient, but terrorist nevertheless.
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"Kids, killing is killing. It's not noble, it's brutal. It has a sweet-bitter odor."
Like napalm in the morning?
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"It's not fun, but it's largely necessary to achieve victory."
No, it is not necessary at all if you let others live their lives and don't invade other countries.
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ConquerorWyrm1 year, 5 months ago
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Mutainia1 year, 5 months ago
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Candida1 year, 5 months ago
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Mutainia: "I know who the enemy is. It's not Muslims, it's not even terrorists, it's...ISLAM...the number one thing that CREATES terrorists."
Well, well, well, a holy warrior. Let's just eliminate all the religions of the world with the exception of ... Which sect of Christianity do you belong to? I just want to know which is the right religion, so I won't convert to the wrong one.
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Mutainia1 year, 5 months ago
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Because to you, ALL the religions are the same, true? They're ALL evil, true? You probably think ALL the religious books are the same and, if you looked, you could find scriptures in them that equal those found in the Qu'ran, true? Qu'ranic scriptures like, oh, how about these: surah 9:1-5, 29 and 30, just for STARTers.
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foksipayne1 year, 5 months ago
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Well I don't speak for Candida, but to me all religions try to do what, over centuries, they were taught was right. And over all these centuries, many have begun to misinterpret certain parts of their teachings. That, my friend, is where the extremists fall in. They forget all the teachings of love and tolerance, and focus on eradicating all other religions, instead of just living their own lives to the fullest
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ConquerorWyrm1 year, 5 months ago
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"ISLAM...the number one thing that CREATES terrorists."
Really? And those faiths that worship a cross (instrument of torture) have never produced individuals with similar motivations or desperation? That is not a safe bet to take.
The TRUE "number one thing that CREATES terrorists" can be found in any national (any nation) policy which is designed to undermine the natural wealth and social structure of a society. An example of such would be the multiple blunders of such policy throughout the second half of the last century. Oh, the lessons might not have been apparent right off, but years down the road little things happened such as a Shah fleeing his country and the radical edges of an oppressed society grabbing the attentions of desperate people. Those who have no other recourse but to affect the opinions through striking at the families of those who are killing their families.
Religion is just a tool
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Codi69341 year, 5 months ago
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dissent1 year, 5 months ago
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when you don't have f16s abrams tanks humvees aircraft carriers submarines 500lb bombs depleted uranium white phosphorous cluster bombs etc etc etc you have to improvise. and i don't think it's so much about killing non-believers as killing anyone who shows up in your front yard using f16s abrams tanks humvees aircraft carriers submarines 500lb bombs depleted uranium white phosphorous cluster bombs etc etc etc
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Codi69341 year, 5 months ago
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dissent1 year, 5 months ago
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you just don't get it do you? here, i'll speak simply. they don't have the same toys as us. some kids have xbox, others have a tin can and a stick. same thing. btw.... if you don't understand killing civilians in a war you don't understand hiroshima and nagasaki
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dissent1 year, 5 months ago
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how many retarded women, innocent children and poor dumb pets were killed at hiroshima and nagasaki? probably more than two. oh, i know, that's different. we were saving the world, ending the war, sparing the lives of millions, yada yada yada.... rationalize away
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Mutainia1 year, 5 months ago
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And, how come no one dares ask what they would do if they KNEW, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that the guy in their custody not only KNEW where a nuke was stashed in New York City, but, KNEW when it was to go off. YET, wouldn't come clean ON such information, believing that a slothful brothel in the sky awaited him WHEN that bomb, he helped set up, would go off and PLEASE his version of Allah. HOW come no one anti-torture wants to go there with such a scenario?
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Mutainia1 year, 5 months ago
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I don't know about you, but, although I might not resort to water-boarding, hey, if I KNEW he was a Muslim also, I might, I repeat, MIGHT...bring in a picture of DOG doo in ONE hand... and have a BIG... BLACK...FELT-pen ...in the OTHER!!!
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foksipayne1 year, 5 months ago
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I like the dog doo idea. I was thinking earlier of the "misinterpretations" I spoke of and had an idea. What if the "virgins" they are promised was one of those. Virgins are pure, right? so if one were to make it to their heaven, then they would have 72 pure ppl like them. (why would you need a virgin anyway when only the spirit makes it to the other side?) So that would mean only 73 people of their faith actually makes it to heaven!
I thought that was an interesting way to look at it.
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Mutainia1 year, 5 months ago
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From my understanding of Islam (and I'm not a hundred percent certain here), is that the virgins and "eternally youthful, chaste, virginal boys", never existed on earth, but, are created by Allah FOR the martyred Jihadi who dies in the service of Allah. Women, in Islam, either go to hell, (if they are bad), or, go into non-existence, if they were good. The ONLY way, they can exist and enter Paradise, is IF they don't mind watching their martyred, Jihadi husbands, being serviced by the virgins, and "fed grapes" by the pretty, eternal, youthful boys "scattered like fine pearls". I mean, from what I can tell, a woman who dies in the cause of Allah (killing infidels), is believed to rescue her family from eternal hell fire. But, it's uncertain where she, herself, ends up, inspite of the killing of infidels for Allah.
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Sabretooth1 year, 5 months ago
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Codi, open your mind back up, you have been a terrorist nation for over 40 years now...that is why the other terrorists are attacking you. You really need to learn your own history if you expect to win at anything. Just an FYI, you cannot beat terrorism by being a terrorist, all you can do is promote it as your government is currently attempting to do.
You have become a military society which thrives on war and so you were given a war, a never ending war. Mission Accomplished.
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Candida1 year, 5 months ago
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Codi6934: "My mind is open enough to know that we may need to become like our enemy to defeat them."
No, that's not the way it goes. You have to learn to think like your enemies in order to defeat them. If you become like them, you have lost your ideals, and they have defeated you.
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Candida1 year, 5 months ago
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No, that doesn't depend on anything.
You are right that the soldiers shouldn't be blamed for useless, illegal, unjustified wars. They do their job, and as long as they stay within the rules of their engagement, they are not to blame. The politicians, however, who sent them there deserve all the blame.
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mesodude1 year, 5 months ago
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"My mind is open enough to know that we may need to become like our enemy to defeat them."
--Huh? I don't understand this line of thinking...Cons have been shrieking in horror, telling lurid tales of all that Saddam has done to his people and citing that as the reason we need to invade and rescue the people of Iraq. So you want to turn around and say we have the right to teach his disciples a lesson because we only torture in the name of saving lives and we only use techniques that kill sometimes? Does that not sound even a tiny bit warped to you? Wow ;-(
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flyonthewallzz1 year, 5 months ago
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http://smallwarsjournal.com/reference/counterin...
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flyonthewallzz1 year, 5 months ago
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Lose Moral Legitimacy, Lose the War
During the Algerian war of independence between 1954 and 1962, French leaders decided to permit torture against suspected insurgents. Though they were aware that
it was against the law and morality of war, they argued that;;
1; This was a new form of war and these rules did not apply.
2; The threat the enemy represented, communism, was a great evil that justified extraordinary means.
3; The application of torture against insurgents was measured and nongratuitous.
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flyonthewallzz1 year, 5 months ago
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This official condoning of torture on the part of French Army leadership had several negative consequences. It empowered the moral legitimacy of the opposition, undermined the French moral legitimacy, and caused internal fragmentation among serving officers that led to an unsuccessful coup attempt in 1962. In the end, failure to comply with moral and legal restrictions against torture severely undermined French efforts and contributed to their loss despite several significant military victories.
Illegal and immoral activities made the counterinsurgents extremely vulnerable to enemy propaganda inside Algeria among the Muslim population, as well as in the United Nations and the French media. These actions also degraded the ethical climate throughout the French Army. France eventually recognized Algerian independence in July 1963.
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flyonthewallzz1 year, 5 months ago
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I know I have posted this once before:
These words are from General David Petraeus:
http://usacac.army.mil/cac/repository/materials...
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Candida1 year, 5 months ago
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It is already happening to the US. It is true that Iraq is not yet a US colony, but it's occupied by the US, and the US is just as inept against the Iraqi terrorists as the French were against the Algerian terrorists.
Anybody who would like to get an insight into the thinking of the terrorists should watch the movie: Battle of Algiers. It's an old one, but a good one.
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flyonthewallzz1 year, 5 months ago
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Hello Codi6934:
I admit to my ignorance.
And the stuff I have been reading about COIN has been penned by RAMFs.
With respect: Could you give this moonbat an example of what you are talking about?
I will place weight on your words.
At the moment from what I have been reading about counter-insurgency, it seems that winning the hearts and minds of the occupied, is the tactical goal.
So I can see why the things you are talking about would have happened, I was wondering if you could explain why they where a mistake; that we are repeating now.
And how we should be doing it.
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Codi69341 year, 5 months ago
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What I about to say would not work in court. I had a French teacher that was a young woman during that time. We watched old French movies about that war, and she would add to the events on-scene. Respecting Muslim customs, not searching women at checkpoints, the women hid/transported guns, exposives, staying away from Mosque, in turn used for caches, or fighting positions. Really no different then what is being done now. Using women/children, Mosques, international borders that we do respect but our enemy uses against us. We just don't seem to get until after the fact. If at all.
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flyonthewallzz1 year, 5 months ago
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The type of things you are talking about are also laid out in the COIN manual.
He goes into detail about how to treat women, children and places of worship.
As far as I can figure; that is the path to victory that General Petraeus is leading our forces on.
Are you suggesting a different path?
It is possible that this moonbat is flying around in the dark.
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nikkibabe1 year, 5 months ago
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Quote:
"I know. Nikki likes it better when people courageously hack off people's heads with knives."
Yes, I do. If someone invades, destroys and occupies another country, that is one of the things you can expect from those who don't have F16 & B1 to blow up occupiers.
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Mutainia1 year, 5 months ago
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Sabretooth1 year, 5 months ago
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I guess when the US is liberated from your criminal leadership that you will be first in line handing out flowers and praising the occupiers. I have no doubt that there will be a few brave souls that will instead be lopping the heads of the invaders of their country. You will call these defenders terrorists obviously but i am afraid i will call them patriots.
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Mutainia1 year, 5 months ago
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MORE Iraqis have had their heads carved off by their fellow Iraqis than American troops have had THEIR heads carved off. Or, do you think CIA are dressed up as Sunnis and carving off the heads of Iraqis to make it look like Islam is evil? You don't seem to be making much sense, ancient kitty cat.
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dissent1 year, 5 months ago
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it's highly likely. it's not as if it hasn't ever happened
"According to the BBC's Galpin, reporting for BBC Radio 4 (9/20/05, 18 hrs news script), Iraqi police sources in Basra told the BBC the "two British men were arrested after failing to stop at a checkpoint. There was an exchange of gunfire. The men were wearing traditional Arab clothing, and when the police eventually stopped them, they said they found explosives and weapons in their carâ;¦It's widely believed the two British servicemen were operating undercover.""
http://rawstory.com/news/2005/CAUGHT_RED__0923....
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dissent1 year, 5 months ago
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ah, that would be the daniel pearl story. your comment here is out of sync but responds to a well documented fact reported by the most credible news sources the world over and that britain has not denied. make of it what you will even if that means, in your case, sticking your hand back in the sand
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Mutainia1 year, 5 months ago
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IF you can put faith in those allowed to lie to spread an agenda because to them "war is deception", and anything NOT under their agenda, in this case, "dar al Islam", known as the "abode, house, of Peace", NOT under their control (making it the "abode of WAR", or, "dar al harb"...where deceit and deception to SPREAD that agenda is allowed), hey, you definitely are a faithful, trusting soul.
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Candida1 year, 5 months ago
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Mutainia: "MORE Iraqis have had their heads carved off by their fellow Iraqis than American troops have had THEIR heads carved off."
And how many American heads were blown off by Americans during the American Civil War? Yes, during a civil war, people of the same country kill each other. The problem is that this civil war was unleashed on the Iraqis by a foreign power that had no business in that country in the first place.
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Mutainia1 year, 5 months ago
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That's right. Because, again, to YOU, it's psychological that one would carve off a head, NOT religiously motivated by following a book that says to "strike off heads and finger-tips", true? An occupying country comes into your country and it's just human nature to show your anger FROM such "humiliation", by strapping on bombs and killing other people's children in market places that have a higher number of people who share a different version of your faith. TOTAlly psychologically motivated, NOT religiously, true? NOT because of the Qu'ran looking down on occupation by infidels, true? NOT because of the Islamic view of the world being divided between dar al Islam and dar al harb, true?
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flyonthewallzz1 year, 5 months ago
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"Torture also has been the subject of much domestic political debate in the United States, but this debate has largely been over the legality of interrogation techniques. The debate usually misses the central point illustrated by the negative impact of international reaction to reports of torture on US foreign affairs: in counterterrorism and counterinsurgency operations, although torture may bring about some short-term tactical and operational advantages, officially or unofficially condoning its use is a major strategic blunder."
http://www.carlisle.army.mil/usawc/Parameters/0...
This one is worth reading!, and not as long as the Army Field Manual.
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flyonthewallzz1 year, 5 months ago
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Codi69341 year, 5 months ago
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It is funny that no one looks at what our enemy does. Russian soldiers having their head sawed off by Muslims in Chechena(sp?) Could that be torture? Taliban/AQ killing informants for the U.S. Do you think they were tortured? Head being cut off and put on the internet. No one is holding our enemy to the same standard. I don't believe in torturing every terrorist we catch. But if he is a "big fish" or he was caught with something vital(papers, documents, equipment). Then his interview should be a little harsh. If I was every caught, I knew what was going to happen to me. Now, our enemy knows what will happen to him, a bed, 3 hot meals, a Koran, and now a lawyer. They don't respect us because they don't fear us. And that is the problem. They think we are weak and they are partially right. War is dirty, but no one waits to see the dirt. The warriors that defend this country can not do what needs to be done. Our "PC" world will be our down fall.
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flyonthewallzz1 year, 5 months ago
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LIMITS ON INTERROGATION
7-42. Abuse of detained persons is immoral, illegal, and unprofessional. Those who engage in cruel or inhuman treatment of prisoners betray the standards of the profession of arms and U.S. laws. They are subject to punishment under the Uniform Code of Military Justice. The Geneva Conventions, as well as the Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment, agree on unacceptable interrogating techniques. Torture and cruel, inhuman, and degrading treatment is never a morally permissible option, even if lives depend on gaining information. No exceptional circumstances permit the use of torture and other cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment. Only personnel trained and certified to interrogate can conduct interrogations.
General David Petraeus wrote this in 2006
It may be that our hands are tied, but a lot of folks are saying we are winning now.
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Codi69341 year, 5 months ago
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ConquerorWyrm1 year, 5 months ago
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Codi69341 year, 5 months ago
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Yes, but NO ONE makes a big issue about our enemies actions. No one complains about the handicapped suicide bombers(we had one in Afghanistan 3 years ago, but his bomb did not work)using kids to get car bombs past checkpoints. Hiding in Mosque, using civialians as shields. If we would held our enemy to the same standard, this war would end.
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Candida1 year, 5 months ago
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Now you sound like a crybaby. No the US is not always blamed, only when it misbehaves which, I admit, is often.
Personally, I consider starting an unprovoked war mass murder, but I don't blame the soldiers for that. The blame goes to the Decider.
When soldiers murder civilians, and it happens, then they do become murderers. Kerry was right. There were a lot of atrocities in Vietnam. He didn't say that all soldiers were murderers, only that some were, which was the truth. You probably don't remember My Lai, but I do. Similarly in Iraq, some soldiers did commit murder.
I do understand that sometimes it's hard to tell who is a civilian and who is a terrorist, and sometimes civilians get killed because the nerves of the soldiers are shattered by living in an environment where anybody can turn on them at any time.
That's why I blame war itself and those who start them.
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flyonthewallzz1 year, 5 months ago
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"You sit over there and see this crap on T.V. It is really bad for morale"
That is a valid argument!
But don't the soldiers that acted unprofessionally also bear some responsibility?
Training, discipline and Dry powder are the things that keep a warrior alive.
I would think that the anger of a warrior would be greater than mine.
Even if it where possible to keep such things a secret from the folks that vote in the Commander In Chief, they would be well known among the population of people you where patrolling in.
As I see it: If our country abhors immoral acts in warfare it weakens the intent of the insurgents. And the acts themselves help in the cause of the enemy who is not looking to win a battle just make us bleed, and gain the support of the population.
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Mutainia1 year, 5 months ago
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I say, instead of water-boarding, bring in an artist with a picture of dog doodoo and start, very slowly, writing the name, in Arabic, "Muhammad", under it. SINCE drawings of Muhammad led to Danish cartoonists running for their life, that school teacher almost losing HER life with a TEDDY Bear named Muhammad, I think THAT might make it so the terrorist Muslim would come clean on where a nuke was hidden even beFORE the letter "M" in Arabic, was written.
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Sabretooth1 year, 5 months ago
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Mutainia, i can see you really believe in your cause. I think you should sign up immediately and put all those great ideas in action saving us all from the terrorists. I am sure the army could use your skills as they are having trouble with recruitment for this war. What say you...are you willing to back up your talk with action in this fight for the very survival of the western world? I thought not...just another blowhard seeking attention.
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Mutainia1 year, 5 months ago
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Did I ever advocate the killing of Muslims, sir? POINT to where I ever advocated that beFORE experimenting with the Ka'aba? I say, we give the terrorists a chance to think things over first. It's the merciful thing to do. IF the desolution of the Ka'aba didn't work, and only made things worse, as some think, THEN, I say, we start talking about killing. But, not until then. I mean, to me, it's not the Muslim's fault AT all that he could be planning on creating a terrorist act. NOT at all.
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Mutainia1 year, 5 months ago
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Yeah, it probably is. I mean, if you read Bible prophecy, not only does it talk about a re-annimated Jewish state CALLED Israel (with Hebrew being spoken), but, you have Psalm 83 talking about how people want to destroy Israel so that "the name of Israel shall no longer be in remembrance". That's TWO fulfillments right there. So, in away, you're right... it DOES seem to be God's "fault".
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mmrhe1 year, 5 months ago
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bigurn
Isn't blaming the police and commanding officer missing the point? If they were doing what they were told it really goes much higher than that does it not?
It seems your doing a good job as an apologist for the tactics described so why not just come out and say so?
Then again it would be just like the rest of the Bushies to leave someone else holding the bag!
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bigurn1 year, 5 months ago
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I'm not blaming the CO. I'm holding the CO for what happened in her command. And it's the police, because the entire prison was under the command of the Military Police Brigade.
The UCMJ is very clear here. There is no allowance for latitude while in command. All decisions begin and end with the CO, and this is understood when getting a command. A General should be able to maintain good order, and she didn't.
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nunzio19461 year, 5 months ago
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If you don't agree with the concept of torture, that's fine. To each his/her own. But don't say it doesn't work. They've been doing it for thousands of years with great success, and I've personally seen the verified proof of it while serving in Viet Nam (buried munitions to troop movements) Personally, I'm all for it, and if someone has planted a bomb, I'm not opposed to nailing his dick to the chair and pouring gas on him while holding a match, if there is the slightest chance the guy might talk. 'nuff said.
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Candida1 year, 5 months ago
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nunzio1946: "But don't say it doesn't work. They've been doing it for thousands of years with great success"
Yes, the Inquisition can testify to that. Even if it works when you torture the guilty, what do you get when you torture the innocent?
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Amazing11 year, 5 months ago
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What we allow to be done to others, we must be willing to accept towards ourselves. Many of the detainees in both Gitmo and Abu Ghraib were/are innocent of any terroristic proclivities. But I imagine they feel like being terrorists now. There was no Al Qaida in Iraq until Bush wrong headedly took us there for war and occupation so that big oil could get their hands on the Iraqi oil fields. And for this, innocent people have been tortured in the name of nothing but greed. The ordinary citizen trying to make a living is paying through the nose for the waste of our American soldiers lives, our money and the complete trashing of our reputation as a nation. I can hardly wait until this presidency is history.
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mmrhe1 year, 5 months ago
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C'mon....Don't play semantics. Blame, Holding responsible. It's the same thing!
The issue is were the tactics a part of a larger strategy ok'd and implemented by top administration officials.
The article in question makes a compelling case that indeed it was.
So how can you hold the MP's and CO responsible?
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nunzio19461 year, 5 months ago
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To the person who wrote ... "Well if that's the case, then don't bitch when it's done to you." You're missing the point ... Nobody wants to be tortured ... Just don't insult my intelligence by saying it's been proven that it doesn't work.
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bubba21 year, 5 months ago
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Sorry to "insult your intelligence", but ...
http://www.alternet.org/rights/28585/
http://progressiveaustin.org/torture.htm
http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/2008/...
http://www.sundayjournal.ie/mary-nelis/Torture-...
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Candida1 year, 5 months ago
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nunzio1946: "Just don't insult my intelligence by saying it's been proven that it doesn't work."
Oh, it does work, just not to get good reliable information. Both the Inquisition and the KGB used is very successfully to get confessions, and for that it worked excellently.
BTW, anybody who hasn't seen the movie Goya's Ghosts, really should. It came out about a year ago and is available on DVD. It's not about Iraq; the script was written before the Iraq war, but you'll be surprised by the similarities.
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nunzio19461 year, 5 months ago
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.... and by the way ... the other side does use torture. They also behead people who disagree with them, blindfold them with their hands tied behind their backs, and throw them off buildings, bury them up to their necks and stone them to death, crush ankles, and chop off limbs (just a short list)
So yeah, we put some panties on some guy's head ... I can see where you get your outrage. Like I said, if you're against it, that's fine ... but let the rest of have a little fun.
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CHAM1 year, 5 months ago
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Good Post Bubba2, I watched a guy on Book TV ( C-Span ) this morning. He is the CEO of CACI which was the Contractor (Mercenary) "civilian" soldiers outfit who participated in interrogations at ABu Gahrib from May 2003.
I looked for the same thing in that telecast, that I looked for in this article - discussion about how many detainees were tortured to death at Abu Gahrib. Jamad Al Hamadi is the best known and most documented, but he wasn't the only one tortured to death that Nov 4th night in 2003.
The CEO of CACI didn't mention it. Neither did the Book TV Moderator. I didn't see anything in this article about it either.
Why do you suppose that the dead from the torture are never mentioned, whenever we speak of Abu Gahrib?
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tiredofwhiners1 year, 5 months ago
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Comparisons to Hitler, Nazis, "torture doesn't work" etc. Goes to show if a lie is repeated often enough some people will believe it. I don't. Repeating the same tired old story (Abu Ghraib) also makes some people think it is real important in the grand scheme of things - not. If the atrocities by the terrorists, Sadaam and Bin Laden were repeated as often as this story, they would be all everyone would talk about and would unify the good people of the world against them. What is being attempted in posting this story is to make out the Americans as being evil and to be hated by the world for what they have done towards the cause of freedom. No amount of excuses for this discussion can diminish the real intent of this story that has been debated and publicized to death for such a long time now.
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ConquerorWyrm1 year, 5 months ago
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tiredofwhiners whining...
Simple:
you have your Left Wing (extreme end would be Stalinist Communism)
you have your Right Wing (extreme end would be Nazi Fascism)
current administration self-declared themselves NEO-CONS and have touted proudly their RIGHT WING beliefs.
Tell me, should we, when referring to an admittedly far right wing political party, compare them to the extreme left or should we stick with the relevant comparison and steer our characterizations to the appropriate political representation?
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bubba21 year, 5 months ago
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The "intent" of the story is to reveal the SCANDALOUS treatment of detainees in Abu Graib by our government, and that the APPROVAL of that treatment was granted ALL THE WAY FROM THE WHITE HOUSE.
No one asked to like the truth, but it IS the truth.
And - it is also VERY TRUE that torture DOES NOT WORK.
http://www.alternet.org/rights/28585/
http://progressiveaustin.org/torture.htm
http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/2008/...
http://www.sundayjournal.ie/mary-nelis/Torture-...
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Candida1 year, 5 months ago
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tiredofwhiners: "If the atrocities by the terrorists, Sadaam and Bin Laden were repeated as often as this story, they would be all everyone would talk about and would unify the good people of the world against them."
The good people of the world have always been against them. There is a difference between being against them and invading their country. There is a lot of talk these days about the atrocities in Zimbabwe. Do you want to invade them too? How about Darfur?
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nunzio19461 year, 5 months ago
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CHAM1 year, 5 months ago
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and what do you think they learned by torturing this man to death? As I recall the story, he was picked up in an area sweep conducted by the Armed forces. In that sweep, they picked up every male over 14 and some women.
One way to get the torture stopped was to finger someone present.
YOu think maybe someone pointed out Hamadi so tht they could get the torture stopped?
You think that Hamadi wouldn't accuse some innocent person just to stop the torture , knowing that after he was thru being tortured, the person he pointed out would have to face the same torture?
Would you point out anyone who has commented as a "Whatever" to get your torture stopped?
I think you would and I think I would!
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breckandy1 year, 5 months ago
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ConquerorWyrm1 year, 5 months ago
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"The atrocities committed by the terrorists were orders of magnitude more grotesque"
by what comparison?
also, define 'terrorist' for this statement
justify why this even is of issue...in other words, is some cruelty and evil allowed because others have done worse?
Is that what Christ taught?
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Mutainia1 year, 5 months ago
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If you read Revelation, it sounds like Christ is going to do the ass kicking on terrorists in his Second Coming. However, that could be symbolic. I mean, if Jesus Christ shows up in the clouds over Israel, MANY religions that aren't Christian, will be destroyed right there on the spot. And, that would seem to include Islam, since Islam teaches that Jesus was just a minor prophet, NOT someone who will split the Mount of Olives with his foot touching down on it at his Second Coming.
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ConquerorWyrm1 year, 5 months ago
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yeah, but Revelations is a crackpot delusion...and the wrong type to base a faith on...
instead, why don't you focus on the message of the man known as the Christ rather than an hallucination from a seriously unbalanced individual...
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Mutainia1 year, 5 months ago
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ConquerorWyrm1 year, 5 months ago
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and this is the sick little perverse wish of the Rapture Evangelicultists..it is sick! Why pursue policy which brings about such difficulties rather than either seeking viable alternatives to supplement or replace or reaching peaceful, capitalistic and humane compromises with those whom we have differences with? Is that not the goal of a democratic capitalist state? Is that not as well in line with the ethical teachings of the Christ?
Or do you feel more comfortable hurrying the apocalyptic fungus induced (I would suspect ergot at the least, you know, a prisoner with moldy food) delusions of a questionably sane individual?
To which Christ do you pray?
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foksipayne1 year, 5 months ago
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wyrm, I'm not positive on this but possibly Rev. is a psychic vision. I've had my own "coded" messages that actually came to pass. Maybe not happening EXACTLY as written in the Bible, but you have to admit, alot of what is happening in recent times matches up. But I agree that Mut may be taking it a little too literal.
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Mutainia1 year, 5 months ago
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"and this is the sick little perverse wish of the Rapture Evangelicultists..it is sick!" But, Christians are supposed to be GONE in it.
"Why pursue policy which brings about such difficulties rather than either seeking viable alternatives to supplement or replace or reaching peaceful, capitalistic and humane compromises with those whom we have differences with?" Anti-Islamic, are you? No, just anti-Christian, true?
"Is that not the goal of a democratic capitalist state? Is that not as well in line with the ethical teachings of the Christ?" Actually, Christ, while on earth, preached the age of the Kingdom, which sounds a LOT like communism.
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Mutainia1 year, 5 months ago
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"Or do you feel more comfortable hurrying the apocalyptic fungus induced (I would suspect ergot at the least, you know, a prisoner with moldy food) delusions of a questionably sane individual?" You mean like Ahmadinejad? I bet you'll never attack him, just those you perceive as Christian leaders. Now, why is that?
"To which Christ do you pray?" To one that YOU can't believe in unless given the faith, through grace, BY God TO believe in. So, in away, it's really, actually, NOT your fault that you don't believe in Him.
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ConquerorWyrm1 year, 5 months ago
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*You mean like Ahmadinejad? I bet you'll never attack him, just those you perceive as Christian leaders. Now, why is that?*
You amazingly make very little sense here. I was speaking of the author of the book of Revelations.
As for Ahmadinejad, what are you talking about? It is the fault of Bush that Ahmadinejad is currently in power. If it were not for that stupid "Axis of Evil" speech, the youth motivated, pro-American reformist movement which had been growing would not have been stifled with a reactionary response in the democratic elections which Iran held shortly thereafter.
As for your comment of my perception of 'Christian' leaders, I have not attacked such. I have specified Evangelicultists (I refer to them as such because the development and age of these media churches still qualifies their particular sects as cults) with emphasis on those adhering to Rapture-based theology.
I don't really consider Pat Robertson & ilk as 'Christian'
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Mutainia1 year, 5 months ago
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Gee, I didn't know Bush put Ahmadinejad in power. I thought he was the result of the great WISDOM of Jimmy Carter for deposing of the Shah. By the way, I thought Robertson DIDN'T believe in the Rapture. Well, maybe he changed his mind.
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ConquerorWyrm1 year, 5 months ago
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Bush IS responsible for Ahmadinejad...through the implied threat of war within his 'Axis of Evil' speech. If you have a memory to use, note the response of Iranians, both the people and the government, after the tragedy of 9/11. The people wept in the streets for the dead and the government offered assistance in eliminating the Taliban & Al Quada. At that time, there was a reformist, quite moderate by Iranian standards, who was the President of Iran. Fear from that speech turned the election.
As for your comment leading back to Jimmy Carter...silly
History:
U.S. led coup of democratic government in 1950s
instillation of Shah as U.S. puppet
Shah proves himself a brutal monster, represses people
revolution finally erupts, to late to prevent radical elements from gaining power
Priesthood assumes power
25 YEARS LATER
Ahmadinejad is elected after reform movements are stunted due to stupid idiot speech
Mutania blames Jimmy Carter
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Mutainia1 year, 5 months ago
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Yeah, I STILL blame the peanut guy. But, looks like he definitely had help at creating the Godzilla that is now Iran. I have a feeling that Iran would STILL have nuclear armed Charlie Manson at the helm ready to bring about an atomic Shiite version of Helter-Skelter with Israel even if Bush LIED, and managed to say, without stumbling, "Iran is our friend."
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ConquerorWyrm1 year, 5 months ago
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yeah...blame the "peanut guy" of 30 years ago for a problem that started over 50 years ago and for the recent switch from a less polarized and radical trend in Iranian politics and culture to a radical fanatic...
great use of logic, son...
Carter was just at the pivot point when decades of despair boiled over. Bush is responsible for the recent retarding of progressive reform in Iran.
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ConquerorWyrm1 year, 5 months ago
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*"To which Christ do you pray?" To one that YOU can't believe in unless given the faith, through grace, BY God TO believe in. So, in away, it's really, actually, NOT your fault that you don't believe in Him.*
Um, thanks for the confident yet false perception of my beliefs. I stand by my statement. To which Christ do you pray? Is it to the one who spoke of loving ones enemy or that blood-thirsty, gold-gilded beast waiting to condemn those who don't grovel properly to a literal Hell on Earth?
My faith, my beliefs, tend to cherish he who turned the other cheek. Don't have much use for a vengeful, petty little devil-god...
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Mutainia1 year, 5 months ago
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ConquerorWyrm1 year, 5 months ago
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I'm ashamed to admit that I haven't even studied the Quran for intellectual reasons. As for believing in it, well, first way to put that is, yes, I do for it is a book and therefor easy to believe that such exists. As for believing in it? Absolutely not...no more so than I believe uncritically in anything.
And finally, though I must refer to Alice on this, I'm not sure if I want to believe in the Quran because I'm pretty sure the Quran doesn't believe in me.
Silliness aside, um, sir, you do know that the roots of Islam are found in Christianity and Judiasm, don't you? Heck, it's pretty much just another sect of Christianity flavored by a different direction and adoption of traditions different from the European roots which American Christianity arose from.
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Mutainia1 year, 5 months ago
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Well, I suggest you DO read the Qu'ran. It should be required reading for all. A great place to start is by typing into your web browser "The Noble Quran", and it SHOULD give you all the three main versions of the Quran translated into English. When you point out the contradictions and evil of the Quran, a Muslim will say, "Oh, you just don't know Arabic. IF you knew Arabic, you'd see that Qu'ran is book of peace." But, WITH "The Noble Quran", you get to see the three famous English versions of the Quran such as Pickthal, Yusuf Ali and Shakir, and, guess what? They pretty much say the same horrifying, satanic thing. So, ARE Pickthal, Ali and Shakir in conspiracy? Or, are Muslims performing "al-taqqiya" (lying for Islam thanks to Quran 3:28 and 16:106, because, in Islam "war is deception")? YOU study the Quran and, judge for yourself. YOU decide.
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ConquerorWyrm1 year, 5 months ago
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I will read the Quran though I will tell you, every Muslim I have ever met have been good people, kind and charitable...
As for your comment of 'satanic', I'll dismiss that as the common ignorance that this culture holds.
As for "war is deception", that is not just Islam. That is the very nature of war and has been always. That maxim can be traced back to Sun Tzu, 2500 years ago.
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Mutainia1 year, 5 months ago
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"I will read the Quran though I will tell you, every Muslim I have ever met have been good people, kind and charitable..." DITTO!
"As for your comment of 'satanic', I'll dismiss that as the common ignorance that this culture holds." You might change your mind when you study Islam and it's founder.
"As for "war is deception", that is not just Islam. That is the very nature of war and has been always. That maxim can be traced back to Sun Tzu, 2500 years ago." Read Qu'ran 3:28 and 16:106. Does that sound like a Muslim in the time of war? If not, can YOU find anywhere in the Bible, or, another religious document, where it's believer is told to play the hypocrite? To even denounce his faith? To SAY something OTHER than he is, or, be "cut off" from his god for BEING an actual friend OF that non-believer?
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ConquerorWyrm1 year, 5 months ago
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I dismiss due to the use of the word 'satanic'...I would like to see that defined...
as to the later subject, I need to study those passages...that I admit...but insofar as actions committed in time of war, there are thousands of years of recorded conflicts and strifes. There are very few faiths with a clean conscience. There are also very few that do not create an Us (saved) v. Them (unclean) mentality or have such within their history. Styles and manners have shifted and changed through time, progressing (to limited rules of conflict) and regressing (total war & targeting of civilian populations). The one absolute concept through that history of warfare is deception. All else, from motives to strategy to management to tactics shift and change, but deception is always constant.
BTW, I have enjoyed this exchange
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Mutainia1 year, 5 months ago
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"I dismiss due to the use of the word 'satanic'...I would like to see that defined..." The reason why I use the word "satanic", is that, Islam, as far as I can tell, fills a thoughtful, conscientious soul, a GOOD Muslim, with a horrible carrot and stick approach to life. It is said that they will be rewarded with 72 virgins if they die killing those who don't believe in their version of Islam. What is NOT said, but, what one can infer FROM studying Islam, is that, anyone who does NOT submit to Allah, prostrating to Mecca five times a day, will have his or her skin burned off and replaced, daily, throughout eternity in hell, drinking boiling water like a diseased camel with a raging thirst. When a GOOD Muslim realizes the fate that awaits those who DON'T do what HE is forced to do, how can he not think those awaited such a fate are pure evil? WHY should Allah torture them so? On TOP of that, a Muslim can never know IF all that he does on earth will be enough.
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Mutainia1 year, 5 months ago
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There are confusing sayings by "Allah's Apostle", that can drive the poor Muslim to madness. Sayings such as "one hour of deep contemplation is better than sixty years of worship" (a swift hard kick in the prostrated Muslim's patooti for sure), and, "the rank of a silent man is worth more than 60 years of Divine service" which is ALSO a swift hard kick to that butt in the air. When you combine this WITH the fact that being late to daily calls to prayer leads to possible many thousands of years in hell fire, the poor Muslim doesn't know whether to crap or go blind. IF he is to still keep his faith in Islam, he might end up thinking that the ONY way out of this mass of carrot and stick confusion, is to do what Allah REALLY wants, which is, DIE in Allah's cause. What's dying in the cause of Allah? JIHAD. And, if you study Jihad, it doesn't sound like "inner struggle" AT all.
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Mutainia1 year, 5 months ago
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It sounds like the only way TO get out of "inner struggle", is to bring misery and death to those who DON'T have their butt up in the air five times a day and must be pure evil for NOT having it up in the air since such a horrible hell awaits them. Muhammad Atta, who lead the attack on the Trade Center, was NOT a stupid man. The 45 British Islamic medical doctors who tried to blow up two Scotish airports, were MEDICAL doctors. Do YOU think they were evil? Do YOU think they were interpreting Islam poorly? In Islam, it is ALLAH who leads on the right path, and, it is Allah who, as pleases, leads OFF of the right path. The Bible talks about God hardening Pharoh's heart, a Muslim will counter with. True, but, unlike the Qu'ran, the Bible also hints of a final universal salvation for ALL. NOT so with the Qu'ran. It is ALLAH who deceives, SAYS he's the "most compassionate, most merciful", and then leads one off to hell IF He/They pleases.
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Mutainia1 year, 5 months ago
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And, unlike the Bible, it's the Qu'ran that tells a Muslim to NOT be friends of Christians and Jews, or, he will be cut off from Allah. However, the Qu'ran says the Muslim WON'T be cut off from Allah, IF, in his heart, that Muslim really ISN'T a friend of Christians and Jews. In otherwords, it's forced hypocricy. That, to me, is satanic, especially when it allows the Jihadi to dress as a Rabbi before stepping onto a bus with a bomb. He's not really a Rabbi, that is "taqqiya", that is a lie. He can even lie and say how much he loved "Fiddler on The Roof", such lies will be forgiven, he believes, when he detonates, because he DIED in the cause of Allah. But, since Allah is a deceiver, how can he be sure even there?
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Mutainia1 year, 5 months ago
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Again, it's the allowed lying that, to me, coupled with the confusion of how to escape hell, that makes Islam far more satanic than MOST religions. I have NOTHING against Muslims, NOR even Islamic terrorists. To me, they are only a SYMPtom of that which is evil. I PITTY the poor guys, NOT hate them. I really feel sorry for them. Observe THIS poor soul. IF you laugh at him, YOU have no soul, I feel.
http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=EH327oLvcos
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Mutainia1 year, 5 months ago
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"as to the later subject, I need to study those passages...that I admit...but insofar as actions committed in time of war, there are thousands of years of recorded conflicts and strifes. There are very few faiths with a clean conscience. There are also very few that do not create an Us (saved) v. Them (unclean) mentality or have such within their history." So true.
"Styles and manners have shifted and changed through time, progressing (to limited rules of conflict) and regressing (total war & targeting of civilian populations). The one absolute concept through that history of warfare is deception." True. But, WHAT holy book on this planet creates an "un verses them" mentality coupled with not only lying, but the breaking of peace treaties after forbidden months are passed like Quran 9:1-5?
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Mutainia1 year, 5 months ago
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"and allows All else, from motives to strategy to management to tactics shift and change, but deception is always constant." I take it, you believe war is evil? I agree.
"BTW, I have enjoyed this exchange" Ditto. For you are open-minded.
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ConquerorWyrm1 year, 5 months ago
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*"and this is the sick little perverse wish of the Rapture Evangelicultists..it is sick!" But, Christians are supposed to be GONE in it.*
I didn't mention 'Christians'. I mentioned 'Evangelicultists'. Again though, even if you were one of the 'elect' selected for this rapture, why would you attempt or support attempts to bring about the horrors and bloodshed for those who remain? That is, again, should you even choose to believe in that rather unorthodox rapture doctrine.
*"Anti-Islamic, are you? No, just anti-Christian, true? "*
No, not anti-either. I am against 'religion' for that is slavery. As for faith, of that, I am in full belief of for such, even faith in nothing, is inherent in all thinking individuals. As for me? Raised in a United Methodist church and have been a Christian since I conceptually understood the meaning thereof when I was 10 years old. It is the insanity of religion and dogma that I detest. Of faith? to each their own and gloriously so
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ConquerorWyrm1 year, 5 months ago
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*"Is that not the goal of a democratic capitalist state? Is that not as well in line with the ethical teachings of the Christ?" Actually, Christ, while on earth, preached the age of the Kingdom, which sounds a LOT like communism.*
Yes, I understand the difference as well as the social leanings (in our current political lingo) espoused by the Christ. I stated those two (capitalist state & christian) as such to point out that such thinking, such wishing for and actively supporting efforts to bring about such a 'dooms-day' scenario for those 'left behind' fits neither with the teachings of the Christ nor with the base political/economic philosophy which is the base of this nation. Such 'Rapture Theology' is both un-Christian as well as directly opposed to the best interests of these United States.
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Mutainia1 year, 5 months ago
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A Christian is supposed to wait and watch for something that DOES sound like a Rapture (although "Rapture" isn't mentioned in the Bible) NOT bring it about. Is supposed to occupy his/her time on earth and try to make things better, when he or she can, NOT create problems. And, I think, that means, for me, trying to take care of the environment.
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ConquerorWyrm1 year, 5 months ago
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Ah, your response here is pretty good...and you are right about that 'rapture' bit...it is a rather radical interpretation developed by churches in colonial America. And as for your comment of not trying to bring it about, that is exactly why I don't understand why anyone would want to antagonize another interpretation of the same base, core faith to the point wherein violence on the scale wished about by these 'rapturites' is achieved. Why do these faux-Christian ministers push so hard for this? And if you don't like mention of Robertson as one of these folk, then I'll introduce you to Hagee who has a whole theology, complete with pie charts, based upon bringing just such about.
This my assertion that these Evangelicultists are NOT Christian nor are they at all interested in the positive welfare of either this nation, this world or humanity in general...otherwise they wouldn't wish for such delightful hell on earth...you know, 'Left Behind'
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Mutainia1 year, 5 months ago
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I've heard the theology of Hagee, and, have heard the theology of others who believe in the Rapture. Never ONCE have they pushed for something where Christians would NOT take care of the environment, or do worse. As a matter of fact, Robertson just recently joined up with Sharpton to fight "Global Warming". And, to me, the thought of CO2 heating up the atmosphere is absurd since the atmosphere of cold, chilly planet Mars is FILLED with CO2. Of course, Mars IS heating up now. The latest probe landed on one of the poles of Mars, and, guess what? NO more frozen CO2 on the ground like there was a few decades ago. But, this is besides the point.
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ConquerorWyrm1 year, 5 months ago
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insofar as taking up the cause of the environment...that is a very recent and not completely welcome element which is growing, due to societal shifts in general, within that community. The old saw that it is replacing is that Man was given 'dominion' to do with the earth as he pleases. The 'environmental movement' was associated with socialists and communists and roundly denounced. This mock conversion is very recent indeed...
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CHAM1 year, 5 months ago
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breckandy, remember the terrorists who cut off the heads of three soldiers after the rape of a 14 year old girl in Mumidayah and the murder of her family by the rapists?
Are those guys in Jail?
The terrorists who cut off the heads of those soldiers claimed they were doing it because of the rape and murder. Don't you remember that? Do you remember that the soldiers who had their heads cut off were from the same outfit as those who committed the rape and murder?
Are you a moral person?
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CHAM1 year, 5 months ago
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Oh by the way, the principal character in this rape murder episode, A Private Green, had his latest court date rescheduled because of a conflicting Quilt show in town.
In Paducah, Kentucky, last scheduled for April 27th, 2008 or maybe 2009, I'm not sure.
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Klarissa1 year, 5 months ago
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We have been wallowing in Abu Ghraib long enough.
Americans are human, no better and no worse that the rest of the world.
We have mean, dishonorable people, and Americans are distressed by their actions.
Do you see Muslim countries being distressed by women carrying bombs and killing innocent people?
We hold ourselves to a higher standard, Marquess of Queensbury rules, treat your enemy fairly, do unto others as you would have them do unto you - the whole nine-yards of what most of us think is right.
When Americans don't act by these precepts, we fall harder - we have a higher mountain to fall from.
It is time the we celebrate the millions of good people in this country who live their daily lives in in ways that we are proud of.
The bad are so few, and worse, it seems to the liberal goal to paint the rest of us with the sins of those few.
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CHAM1 year, 5 months ago
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Klarissa you are wrong that the Liberal crowd wants to paint America as decadent for the sins of a few. Unless-some people want to overlook what those criminals did because they might be Conservative, or Republicans, or Democrats for that matter.
What I have railed against and all who have read anything I've posted know that I call criminal, what ever is criminal. You know that I written that I thought Bill Clinton was the second worst president in US History. Just because I think Bush is worse, doesn't mean I think Clinton is now suddelnly good.
What is happening to America is that people are embracing their crook and washing him clean simply because he is of their party.
Conservatives and Republicans are not good just because they may be better than Democrats or others. A criminal is a criminal, no more, no less.
We in America need to stop this crap and look at the culprit. One that I have called the Shadow Government.
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Candida1 year, 5 months ago
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Klarissa: "We have mean, dishonorable people, and Americans are distressed by their actions."
You don't sound very distressed by them. Even now you are trying to claim that this indicates just a few bad apples, completely ignoring that this was with the knowledge and probable approval of people at the top levels.
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CHAM1 year, 5 months ago
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The Shadow Government is that Entity made of of Wealthy, Influential, Powerful people who are more interested in milking the public than they are in being American.
I am an American who cares for his country. I want my country to be the best it can be. It cannot reach that level if we suffer dishonesty simply because it comes from our political persuasion.
Klarissa I am asking you to stop being anytrhing except American. There is no pain with doing so, just an admission that someone or some group we placed on a high pedestal wasn't what we thought they were.
I said that I voted for Bush the first time. I thought that he would be the one to bring America back to moral Government that kept the fidelity intrusted unto them by the people. After the first term, I realized that I was wrong. And I said so. I had been a Republican since Goldwater.
I decided it was time to be an American. I have never thought of myself as a liberal. There must be many like me.
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