Comments for Propeller's Anti-Group Group »
Posted By Spadecaller 1 year, 4 months ago in NewsDespite the recent attempts of management to patch up and accessorize Propeller 2.0, its most serious flaws continue to frustrate members. Many of us have discovered that the lack of responsiveness from "groups" has made it difficult to share and to conveniently access stories of personal interest.
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Spadecaller1 year, 4 months ago
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The lack of responsiveness from "groups" has made it difficult to share and to conveniently access stories of personal interest.
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The new format will remain isolating and restrictive to sharing among members as long as groups are used as the go-between for members, their interests, and their posted stories.-
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Spadecaller1 year, 4 months ago
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Agreed PHB... but to have groups act as middlemen is utter stupidity. Why would anyone want to post a story and have to got through this nonsense; it beats me. I cannot muster much more patience for this fiasco. It takes twice as long for me to find people to resond to an article that I post. When I posted stories in the old system, I had an average of 12 to 13 votes within the first hour.
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This is no picnic. Most of my friends are weblogging on other sites to get away from this dog. We are trying to hang in here hoping to affect some positive changes, but it does not appear that Propeller really wants to address the key issues. This is certainly one of the biggies.-
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hyperbola1 year, 4 months ago
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I detest mechanisms for "soliciting votes for me" (and those who do it). This fosters herd mentalities that we don't need here. In fact the groups mechanism was probably created in response to herds who wanted such mechanisms.
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I agree that finding new stories is a crucial feature for the site and make some suggestions below. -
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Nowalive1 year, 4 months ago
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Bravo Spade!
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I have been a loyal NS/Propeller user since '93. I have seen the various stages of development, and I must say that I consider the old NS/Prop the pinnacle of social networking. Now the look and feel is just depressing. I can't review my comments, can't edit my profile, it is actually slower than the old prop and I really preferred the vote and sink features. I miss not being able to see who voted, as I have made a lot of new friends on both sides of the issues from that reference.
I like the groups feature, but must agree with PHB that most are now just spam groups or groups to promote submissions.
I am going to hang on though, hoping for much needed improvements. I thoroughly enjoy the disussions here and although the threads sometimes turn into little more than name calling events, they generally have brilliant and thought provoking dialogue.
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SenorCoconut1 year, 4 months ago
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In all fairness to the management, the site messaging system has improved this week, and the site is generally functioning much more efficiently.
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However, the story sharing function that was omitted from Propeller 2 was a great loss. It allowed for efficient access to stories that are now just too time consuming to search for. More importantly I found myself reading good and interesting articles that I would otherwise not have seen. If the story sharing feature were to be restored, I see no reason why the groups should be done away with, they could serve as an archive for each particular group subject, and also a place for like minded people to network.-
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RickyDawkins1 year, 4 months ago
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I have a major problem with the "message center". The message center does not recognize the ENTER key. When I write a message, it all gets crammed into ONE paragraph, even if i have written NUMEROUS paragraphs. (Nobody seems to want to touch this issue or even recognize that it exists.)
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Spadecaller1 year, 4 months ago
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I don't see the great benefit of the groups, other than imposing restrictions to the entire community. My loyalty was to the community. Now what do we have? Food people, politicos, movie buffs, ... some groups are even restricting membership. This is nonsense. It's divisive, isolating, and inefficient.
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I don't need someone else or something else forcing me into reading stories that I may bypass. I trust my own ability to determine what I want to read and what I would care not to read. If I want an instructor to assign reading assignments I can go back to school for that; or if I want an activities counselor, I would not want Mr. Spinhead to show me around the camp.
Just give us back a dedcent list of categories and most of us are intelligent enough to pick and choose according to our own tastes.-
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cosmogenium1 year, 4 months ago
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I didn't mean to neg or pos.
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SC, I can't completely agree. The groups do make it easier to share activity with a greater number of people at a time. I always hated the Five Friends Only rule when trying to get a story out to people i thought would be interested. By joining the appropriate group(s) and sending stories to them, I can get the word out to many more people than I could before.
That said, I wanted to be able to send stories to a list selected from my friends and to have that list be unlimited by some arbitrary number. However, I've done something like that with my own group to which I invite whatever friends are interested in joining. That was the motive behind cosmogenium's coop. The group also gives me an easy way to monitor my friends who are members' activities and to prop and comment on their stories. Its membership is "limited" to those who are already my friends because I want to use it as I used to use my friends page. Since some of my friends keep their activity private, the group is a way for them to share with me selectively and vice versa.
The group Politics is one I consider to be an alternative to the old "politics" category, which no longer exists (what were they thinking?).
Anyway, at the risk of seeming contrarian about groups, I can see a lot of potential with them, and with this new format in general. Have you noticed that it works well on an iPhone or iPod Touch? I was amazed after having tried to work with the old format on my Touch to no success and then trying again with the new one. It's actually easy to work with on a small format device!
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bluetexasvalley1 year, 4 months ago
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Beau: "And wasn't there some mention by the Propeller staff that there'd be a directory of all groups forthcoming? Without an invitation to join, how would you even know if one exists?"
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From your Profile page or Socialize tab, click on New Groups. You can see all of the groups, with the newest ones shown first. -
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Beau78901 year, 4 months ago
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There was also some mention of re-enabling tracking back to comments. It's still far too difficult to find old comments and find out if anyone has responded to them. Your activity shows which stories you've commented on, but you can't get directly to them--you still have to open all the little triangles on each story and search for your own comments--not an easy task on popular stories with many comments.
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Groups don't bother me, as long as there are also OTHER ways to conveniently find and share new stories that interest you--a group's home page only shows the last 10 stories people have shared with that group.
And wasn't there some mention by the Propeller staff that there'd be a directory of all groups forthcoming? Without an invitation to join, how would you even know if one exists?
I also don't like the fact that there may be stories that I want to see to know what they're about, but wouldn't want to support and push up to the top of the home page. The way it works now, if you look at a story and its comments, you're effectively supporting that story.-
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Beau78901 year, 4 months ago
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I know. You can also see all of the most popular groups, so that all groups are arranged by how many members they contain.
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But how many pages do you have to go through? Can't we have a simple list of them--one line each, in alphabetical order so we can see more than 15 or so at a time? -
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nostalgia1 year, 4 months ago
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"It's still far too difficult to find old comments and find out if anyone has responded to them. Your activity shows which stories you've commented on, but you can't get directly to them--you still have to open all the little triangles on each story and search for your own comments"
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I agree
This is a major problem
Who wants to continue to go back through all of the comments to see if there are replies
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Spadecaller1 year, 4 months ago
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This is a comment that I just received regarding this story...
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I am finding he same thing is happening to me too.
"I believe this was all done for the purpose of advertising, but it is not working for most of us. --- I didn't want to comment in public..... I scan my computer EVERYDAY for adware and virus... before the switch a normal scan produced around 4-8 adware cookies.... last night 47 .... and averages well over 20 since the switch.. and this is with LESS time on propeller than before the switch.... and no other change in internet habits... " -
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dadesider1 year, 4 months ago
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bluetexasvalley1 year, 4 months ago
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bluetexasvalley1 year, 4 months ago
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Although I submit stories to groups -- and I belong to several -- I find it much more convenient to go to Friends Submissions where I can vote on my friends' stories. In fact, for me it is more convenient than answering individual vote-for-me messages, plus cruising channels. And I don't go to my groups or to channels to look up new stories to prop; Friends Submissions is the best way and I go there 3 or 4 times a day.
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I still go through the Top Stories and look at submissions from non-friends, but not nearly as often. I used to go through the Top Stories looking for my friends' submissions when they didn't PM me about them, but that was a bit of a hassle.-
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flyonthewallzz1 year, 4 months ago
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I like the friends submissions thing too! I have considered making that my startup page. My friends list is a mix of folks, that I think speak well from both sides of the aisle and I am pretty stingy about adding to it. I miss the who voted thing because that was the basis from which I decided who to put on my friends list. Basically the folks that did not respond to my comments did not get on my list.
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I have digressed: I think the group thing could be handy, The conversation feature could be used to store research and links to information that often seem to clog the jabber. I am not sure how the "Reflect feature works"?
The thing that drew me here was folks sharing information and then tempering it with their opinion. I think the group feature could be used as an archive.
For instance Spadecaller could post links to all his videos and a Luddite like me could respond at the time when I was using a fancy media computer.
There are a lot of folks here that do a bunch of research it would be cool to look into their library of links and possibly add to it.
Sorry to take up so much space! long day and I just started jabbering, usually on a night like this I would just vote up the comments and go to sleep.
But then y'all would not know how much I appreciate the company.
Side note: I have never had a story make it to the front page, but Alpha has supported most of them even though we generally disagree. I am having a conscience problem, because I have found myself avoiding stories I disagree with because my participation seems to boost its value.
I feel that my ability to "gently" express my point of view has been diminished.
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bluetexasvalley1 year, 4 months ago
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I have over 100 friends, most of whom have the same viewpoints on politics, religion, environment, etc., so I don't feel like I'm missing many important stories. If I do miss anything interesting, I can usually get to those in Top Stories.
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I can easily do without the groups, but don't take away Friends Submissions from me. :) -
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jovial1 year, 4 months ago
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I lost track of a lot of my friends. With so many groups to join and pick from it's become a burden to navigate through all of it. As an owner of a group I have been having a major problem adding people that request to join my group the link to to do it is not functional. Another disturbing thing is i can't seem to log out on IE explorer. Maybe something to do with script handling or something. So right now i am perpetually logged on. I do have to say that when I report bugs they have been trying to answer me and solve problems.
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flyonthewallzz1 year, 4 months ago
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"You are surely not missing anything."
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What am I, Chopped liver?
Neither the "old propeller "or the Religion group would have me!
Sorry Spade: but I do have to wonder if I want to join a club that would let me in!
But thanks for letting me join even if I have no clue what it means.
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Spadecaller1 year, 4 months ago
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If some people want the groups, that is fine with me too, but give the members the tools to navigate this site effectively. I heard management explain that the groups would serve as a substitute for the loss of categories.
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Many of us do not find that acceptable. In my case, if we do not get back the categories and the tools to locate old stories, comments, and to have a convenient method to search out the stories that we want to participate on, then I would not want to continued here. If it stays the way it is now, I will join the ranks of the growing list of Propeller refugees. -
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ameliog1 year, 4 months ago
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It's too early to call. I think in time certain groups will rise and stabilize near the top. This could reflect the community's choice of "channels". Some top groups will be cliques - this also reflects the community behavior in many ways. Some groups are open, others aren't, and my purpose for a group might be completely different from another member's.
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Sort of an organic process. I'm interested in seeing how it evolves. However, one thing that is clear now is that groups do not improve or offset any preferred feature. We're still lacking that glue that was threading our activity together, but I'm not sure how to put that into a specific request to the propeller programming team. -
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RickyDawkins1 year, 4 months ago
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Spadecaller1 year, 4 months ago
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tdrapeau1 year, 4 months ago
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We are listening and we are making changes as swiftly as we can. We have been debating the best way to bring back story sharing - we have heard the call for this. True, when we launched Propeller 2.0, we thought the groups feature could prove so useful for sharing stories that we wouldn't even need a share this story feature. We have since seen that, even with groups, sharing stories with your friends is a discrete and important need.
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We're still fixing bugs with comments, and a few things that don't work the same way in Internet Explorer as they do in other browsers.
Also, in response to feedback, we are looking at the homepage design, with an eye towards de-emphasizing the mascot, tightening up the story area to allow for more stories on the homepage.
In the member area we are working on a member recent comments feed.
I'm still undecided about bringing back a "who voted on this comment" module, as some strongly believe it will distract from the conversation.
Categories are another area... I have been considering introducing subcategories, which have their own pros and cons, but I'm not sure about that yet.
Hopefully when we have these pieces together, we can talk about more improvements.
Thanks to all for bearing through this - I know it hasn't been lots of fun.-
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rumple4skin1 year, 4 months ago
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Spadecaller1 year, 4 months ago
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Thanks Tom for responding to this discussion. I must, however, take exception to your comment, "I'm still undecided about bringing back a "who voted on this comment" module, as some strongly believe it will distract from the conversation."
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In the real world when we discuss, debate, or argue, we can see facial expressions and body language. I would prefer not to be "protected" from such "distractions" as you call them. When someone nods approvingly with a vote or frowns critically with a neg, that's what made the old format intimate and more real. This current format is sterile and too controlled. Most of us prefer to know where we stand. For the few who abuse the negging, why use them to formulate your decision? Most of us do not behave that way. Why not base your decsions on the virtues of the majority, rather than the shortcomings of a few?
The other thing that many of us miss and that I certainly miss is the feature that showed "who's online now". That made a world of difference, knowing what friends we could contact for a more immediate response. It was nice having that connection to others and to be able to converse on the threads and off, as well. If this is supposed to be a social site, then lets make it sociable.-
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hyperbola1 year, 4 months ago
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I agree with that comment. Feedback from others is useful in seeing that one's own comments are constructive.
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Apart from that the percentage counter (1/0 or 100/0 both equal 0%) is annoying. While there will always be reprobates, a 25/0 negative rating from IDENTIFIED participants is helpful in "social hygiene" on the site.
Finally, when everything is reduced to obscure "scores" without identification of the participants who contributed to those scores, I am cyncial enough to begin wondering if any of this is real. Maybe story and comment scores are simply made up by a few "controllers" who want us to read and think in certain ways. -
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hyperbola1 year, 4 months ago
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The "friend-sharing" mechanism is a very poor substitute for efficient ways of finding new stories.
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I presently choose a very small group of friends to avoid generating interminable lists of "friends stories" on all kinds of topics that don't interest me. This means that I avoid some of the most active users, including "propeller scouts", because they submit far too many stories on far too many topics. I know that I miss some highly interesting stories that do interest me, e.g. in politics, but using long friends lists to find them wastes too much of my time.
I don't think propeller has thought clearly about how users participate in this site. Apart from EXTREMELY specialized topics (e.g. algorithms for network searches), there is NO group that will entirely reflect my personal interests (or anyone else's). If the group can grow in uncontrolled ways, then with time it is even less likely to reflect my interests.
I want tools that allow ME to find the stories that interest ME efficiently - not something that creates herds. I would guess that the present group mechanisms are especially discourageing for new members - unless they immediately join several groups (which they do not know), their submitted stories will never see light of day and they will probably go away in frustration.
The best solution is a decent search engine with user-defined criteria:
category, time of submission, submitter (s), tag(s), ...
At present the search engine is useless. For example, if one searches for politics stories, virtually NONE of the stories submitted to the multiple politics groups appears in the list (being "politics" groups, apparently the stories are not tagged with politics).
If a good search engine is not possible, then PLEASE at least restore a condensed list of all new stories in categories like politics. Looking through tjhese lists for interesting stories is a bit painful, but far preferable to the present "group" mechanisms.
Alternatively, I might find multiple personal friends lists attractive (one for politics, one for books, .....). I might even use that kind of a mechanism to keep track of "enemies" who submit infinite "nonsense" that needs to be shot down with facts immediately. -
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Endoscopy1 year, 4 months ago
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Be careful about the IE thing. The problem is which IE are you going to fix for. Each version has different problems The new one coming out will have a standards mode and a MS mode for dealing with legacy sites.
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Good luck and have fun.
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dandt16121 year, 4 months ago
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I removed myself from the 4 groups I had joined because I started reading the rules to some of these groups and it went something like this... if u don't do this and u don't do that u will be removed... so I decided to remove myself and hope that this group thingy will go away.
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It's just like school little clicks here and little clicks there. The old way was better. PERIOD!!!!-
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Mdiar1 year, 4 months ago
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El Oh El!!!
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Indeed I do!
Actually, depending on what's going on I could do anything from play various games with friends, normally a card game of some sort, study some facet of something or run errands... when classes start again, I will be doing far less on Propeller and far more of everything else probably and a few class based things as well!
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david_nwpa1 year, 4 months ago
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dandt, I have to say, as far as The Gay Group is concerned, I prefer only a few stories a day so I can read them all. I have not really kept count of how many are submitted. The only other request I have had is that the stories be related to GLBT lives. Many stories fall under that category, but the ones that are rather obviously gay themed are the ones I usually post.
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You are welcome to join my group at any point with no restrictions whatsoever.
I admit that was a shameless plug, but work within the system we have now until the improved version is ready. -
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gamahuche1 year, 4 months ago
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It never occurred to me that there might even BE any rules! I certainly haven't read any of them and am not sure that i want to. NO - please don't tell me where they are!
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I guess of I get thrown out of a group that group will lose me as a member - too bad for them!
mdiar - if you throw me out of your group I SHALL be upset.
Time to start an ANARCHISTS group, I guess.
I can think of some very interesting grounds for membership - including, for example having been refused membership of every other group to which you have replied, being on your 4th sock-puppet identity [does NOT apply to our multiple simultaneous excrescences]-
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Mdiar1 year, 4 months ago
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Hell, only two posters break the rules in my group and to be honest with ya, its not that important because of how things are ordered in the "watching" section. The spammed submissions tend to sort themselves out very nicely depending on how old they are, then I simply clear stories out every day or two!
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If you start the anarchists group, let me know!
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david_nwpa1 year, 4 months ago
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I would like to know why we can no longer sink articles. I can understand that if I do not like an article, I can always just not vote for it. However, that does not serve the same purpose as "sinking" the article. In some cases, articles are so absurd or far-fetched, or filled with bogus lies that they are not worthy of reaching the front page, or any page for that matter. I know some might say the same about the articles I submit, but we should have the power to reject as well as support the material presented.
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Spadecaller1 year, 4 months ago
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Stop whining ranchland and spend more time with your wife.
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Improvements are founded on communication; to complain about others sharing their opinions and hopes is more negative in itself.
WE all "pay" for the site by contributing to its advertising effectiveness; so your comment truly lacks insight.-
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icono11 year, 4 months ago
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I think a more 'sane approach' would of been to bring in 'new things' slowly and over a period of time and let the participators decide on 'what is good or what is bad' as it concerns changes to the site.
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Instant and some what radical change, especially to multiple branching and partitioning, is not always a good and desirable course of action to pursue when dealing with a stable cyber population that has become accustomed to certain routing or branching routines that are relatively 'clean' or straight forward and easily understood by the experienced population and quickly learned by the newbies to the system. What ensues is a large amt of discontent and migration away from the changed site by the historical population because their environment and hence, cyber identity and feelings of ownership, has been marginalized and definitely, in their opinion, threatened. Or worse yet, they feel as though they were personally attacked by the general sweeping changes to the basic overall system.
Hopefully this was not the intent of the 'System Lords'.
Also the evidence seems to point to a change from an integrated cohesive group experience to one of separation of members of the population. For example 'The Group concept' intuitively and overtly promotes 'selectivity' from a population not the de facto inclusion of all members of that population. Also with that 'selectivity' comes the relative restriction on what can be posted and by whom it can be posted. In other words, the site is no longer an open ended environmnt, it is a closed environment.
Will all the new changes work for the new propeller? Only time will tell. -
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icono11 year, 4 months ago
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Thanks spade.
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I could opine more about the 'changes' and the possible outcome on the overall site dynamic 'cause I've seen this type of 'social engineering' before in other cyber communities and real life communities. Usually the result is a more 'restrictive environment' as you noted in your article at your site, which by the way, is well written and definitely on target about the current state of affairs here on the new propeller.
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vidman041 year, 4 months ago
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I think the concept of "groups" to be a good one, you can debate with like minded people and avoid being trashed called names and such, especially if the group is private. If people were to act more mature when posting and replying, instead of posting like some drunk hillbilly (you know who you are, lol),or somehow superior to the rest of us, this place would be a helluva lot better...will the "sink a story" button come back? If its fair to prop a story, shouldn't you be able to sink it?
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Eagle_Eye1 year, 4 months ago
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I agree with a lot of what is said, but I really miss the "category" part, I find my self having a hard time deciding what to post under.
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I like the idea of sub-categories, this time include environment and wildlife.......what we have now is way to generic. I don't know where to go most of the time or where my friends are. It is hard to keep in touch with such a fragmented feeling.-
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icono11 year, 4 months ago
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EE;
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One simple way,that I know of, to find where your 'friends are', as it pertains to this system, is to go to your 'profile page then list all of your friends', click on their icon which will take you to their profile page and on that page you will find a listing of their current activity. Then click on the link embedded within the individual activity listing. That will take you to the article (not the individual's post) that they have either propped, posted or commented on.-
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Eagle_Eye1 year, 4 months ago
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ico, that is way to much work clickity clicken all those pages and waiting for down loads with all my friends.
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I miss the Categories!! So much easier to find stories to interest me and like minded people. I think they should broaden the current Categories and make all the Groups sub categories. Much more organized/
Way to much white space, it hurts my Eagle Eyes after awhile and I HAVE to stop reading, Mid life eyes are more sensitive to the bright white back ground. It also feels "cold"-
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icono11 year, 4 months ago
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I agree EE; you gotta do a whole lot of clicking and branching to do simple stuff. You are right about the new format it is too harsh and basically crowded; much more kiddie friendly than adult friendly.
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I loved the old categories for the same reason you did and maybe the will broaden the new categories and sub categorize the groups. But I'm not holding my breath waiting on that to happen.
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abntv1 year, 4 months ago
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No question there are still issues with the site. However my biggest issue with the site is a carry over from the old one..
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People just cant seem to communicate without being hateful or bitter. I do miss the catagory part though.
And if people want to form goups,,so what....if it becomes a real issue I am sure Propeller will address it. -
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ind061 year, 4 months ago
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I have to say that I think some topics are better suited for groups than others. I find humor particularly poorly suited. People don't really have discussions about humor, not the way they do about news and politics, so I'm left wondering myself about the real efficacy of my humor group. Truthfully I created it at a point when the entire community was fracturing in an effort to keep in touch with my friends. In that respect, Satire Lounge has served well enough, but as far as serving as a meeting place for like-minded individuals, I'm quite sure it doesn't, and I confess to not having the slightest idea how to make that sort of thing work aside from being on group 24 hours a day to provide some sort of continuity to those who randomly visit. As far as humor goes, groups have been a complete wash (at least for me).
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Mdiar1 year, 4 months ago
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Hey now, that wasn't spam that I posted! I divulged the full conspiracy to promote fascism through various groups, I think you'll find them easily enough! They are full of elitists and some even have the names of the owner in the title... like "Jovial's Group"! Ignore my group... just ignore it and move on. Take the pill on your way out, please. Thanks, come again!
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Okay, I admit, I just posted "El Oh El" as a stand alone comment.
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airwick1944Comment removed: Retracted by user
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cikenComment removed: Spammer, Hard Banned
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Spadecaller1 year, 4 months ago
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I suppose we need groups to help represent those who are members of the KKK, the American Nazi Party, Skinheads, and Arian Nation ... considering that they are represented on Propeller too. We don't need to wonder about what their membership exclusions will be; now would we?
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Should we have an ACLU group, A Jewish Defense League, a Palistinian Liberation group, and theTibet Emancipation Foundation? New groups to look forward to ...
BTW, if anyone is looking for some great Tibetan recipes, they can spend a few hours wandering through the Tibetan group... or should they better look through the stories in the Jewish Defense League?
Really sounds like Propeller 2.00 is off on the right track, huh? -
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Dicax_Maximus1 year, 4 months ago
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Excellent article SC.......
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Some parts of Prop 2 aren't bad, BUT, to add my gripe to the points raised above as to what's missing/wrong, is it just me or has anyone else noticed that this is a LOT slower than the previous version, and that was slow enough ???-
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hyperbola1 year, 4 months ago
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I also find it much slower and less efficient.
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First, I have to click, scroll and page much more than previously. More paging really slows things down - now I usually run 3-4 propeller browser windows in parallel so I can do something else while waiting for paging responses.
Second, the tools which I have been given for interacting with the site are much less efficent than previously - ESPECIALLY looking for interesting new stories.
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Klarissa1 year, 4 months ago
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The site works a lot better. The problem I have is with time. It takes too much time to sort through the groups, find what to comment on, and wonder why some of the far-out topics make it to the Stories today list when others don't.
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It was easier when it was by subject. -
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hyperbola1 year, 4 months ago
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Well I just wrote a lengthy reply to abntv about slowness.
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As far as I can tell, it disappeared into the ether again?
Or maybe it appeared somewhere else in the thread?
There Is NOTHING more frustrating with the current version than snap-back (reinsertion) at the top of a thread in which much of the thread is closed (is that where my comment went? Do I now need to open all the closed parts to find it?). Imagine how discussion is curtailed by looking for your comment in a closed drop-down on the third page! -
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