Comments for What's So Heroic About Being Shot Down While Bombing Innocent Civilians? »
Posted By Neophile 1 year, 2 months ago in NewsLike Iraq, Vietnam was not a noble cause. It's time we stopped letting politicians and the press perpetuate the McCain War Hero myth.
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chuck-the-canuck1 year, 2 months ago
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Absolutely.
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I’ve always had great respect for anyone who is willing to make the ultimate sacrifice for something they truly believe in. The catch is, what they believe in must be credible. If it isn’t, they aren’t heroes, they’re fools at best and if their cause is based upon lies, they are merchants of evil.-
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khesanh681 year, 2 months ago
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lovemylibs1 year, 2 months ago
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FTA:
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("Was he tortured for 5 years? No. He was subjected to torture and maltreatment during his first 2 years, from September of 1967 to September of 1969")
The author forgot to write that in the last years of his captivity, McCain took daily walks in the park, read Solzhenitsyn, had 3:00 p.m. tea and cigarettes with his "captors", looked at girly magazines and slept 10 hours each day. It was like a vacation.-
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injest1 year, 2 months ago
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“read Solzhenitsyn”
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Is that the same Solzhenitsyn that has NO reference EVER to a “Cross In the Dirt” story?
“Remember that story about “The cross in the dirt” and that story was actually excerpted from "The Gulag Archipelago" by Alexander Solzhenitsyn, which was released in the US in 1973.
Turns out Solzhenitsyn never wrote about that cross story that McCain supposedly plagiarized
Turns out according to a Solzhenitsyn biographer, the story appears nowhere in his published writing. Columbia University professor Michael Scammell, the author of Solzhenitsyn: A Biography, says the episode “never happened,” and didn’t appear in Solzhenitsyn’s book, Gulag Archipelago, either”
Once again proving beyond a shadow of doubt
You can always count on useful idiots to be too dang gullible, stupid to look it up.
Was that the Solzhenitsyn you were referring too luv?-
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lovemylibs1 year, 2 months ago
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That's the one, injest. The one that we libs used to try to further cast aspersions on McCain. The one that got propped all the way to the front page. The one that, when debunked, had a story explaining the debunking receive a rousing score of 1.0 on Propeller. It was the same story that had all of DailyKos talking. It was as if we liberals had a party with copious amounts cherry kool-aid punch. It left our mouths the color of blood.
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kobzikov1 year, 2 months ago
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"Is that the same Solzhenitsyn that has NO reference EVER to a “Cross In the Dirt” story?"
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Are you calling both Michael Goldfarb, McCain's lap dog from PNAC, and Billy Graham liars?
"Graham (Texas Tech, University, Sept. 3, 1975): Alexander Solzhenitsyn was over here recently, remember? And he toured around the country. And he told a little story that everybody ought to hear..."
http://tinyurl.com/5vnkat
"The story Solzhenitsyn told was of a prisoner who drew a cross in the dirt in a Soviet Gulag. McCain's story is of a guard who drew a cross in the dirt in a Vietnamese prisoner of war camp..."
http://www.johnmccain.com/McCainReport/Read.aspx?guid=181471d0-5456-4434-9f78-2f30ffc39459
"Turns out according to a Solzhenitsyn biographer, the story appears nowhere in his published writing."
It doesn't appear anywhere in Solzhenitsyn's published writing? So I suppose that means it never happened either or was Solzhenitsyn a liar too?
It's getting awfully hard to wade through all the BS in your comment, injest and I'm saying that only because I didn't bring my BS wading boots.
"Columbia University professor Michael Scammell, the author of Solzhenitsyn: A Biography, says the episode “never happened,” and didn’t appear in Solzhenitsyn’s book, Gulag Archipelago, either”"
When did he say that and more importantly to whom? You see I have it on good authority that Scammell said:
"I've been consulting with other Solzhenitsyn experts on the Colson story and nobody seems to know if it happened or not. Certainly no one I know can confirm it."
http://tinyurl.com/5vnkat
I've found that usually when academics have no evidence corroborating a claim they say precisely that and claim that something didn't happen only if they have evidence to the contrary, then again maybe Scammell is also lying, right?
So riddle me this injest, what's more likely that all the people are lying and you are the only one telling the truth or that you are lying? We'll ignore your stellar reputation for "telling it like it is".
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kobzikov1 year, 2 months ago
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You won't mind if I take the words of Phillip Butler, a POW who spent more time in Vietnamese prison then McCain, over yours, love, will you?
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Who said:
"John's treatment as a POW:
1) Was he tortured for 5 years? No. He was subjected to torture and maltreatment during his first 2 years, from September of 1967 to September of 1969. After September of 1969 the Vietnamese stopped the torture and gave us increased food and rudimentary health care. Several hundred of us were captured much earlier. I got there April 20, 1965 so my bad treatment period lasted 4 1/2 years. President Ho Chi Minh died on September 9, 1969, and the new regime that replaced him and his policies was more pragmatic. They realized we were worth a lot as bargaining chips if we were alive. And they were right because eventually Americans gave up on the war and agreed to trade our POW's for their country. A damn good trade in my opinion! But my point here is that John allows the media to make him out to be THE hero POW, which he knows is absolutely not true, to further his political goals."
http://tinyurl.com/62tdbh
Come to think of it, I haven't taken daily walks in the park or slept for 10 hours each day during my more then a decade long stay in US, can I say that I was tortured worse then McCain? I'd like to put that on my resume when I apply for a job. -
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injest1 year, 2 months ago
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“I’ve always had great respect for anyone who is willing to make the ultimate sacrifice for something they truly believe in. The catch is, what they believe in must be credible. If it isn’t, they aren’t heroes, they’re fools at best and if their cause is based upon lies, they are merchants of evil”
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PLEASE please please tell us that hindsight is a valid criteria for what was unknown at the time! -
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Harbeas1 year, 2 months ago
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McCain was a victim of the Viernam war. He was ordered to do what he did over there. I am not a McCain supporter, however, I do agree with his comments on how we could have won that war. War should always be an absolute last resort. That being said, once you do go to war it should be to win not to prolong it for years because you have no plan to win.
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donald511 year, 2 months ago
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Can't win a war where you can't win the "hearts and minds" of the people. And in Vietnam we also propped up a corrupt government to boot!
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Free fire areas, careless killing of innocents... just like the first 4 years in Iraq... made sure we would never win this guerilla war!
Our pilots and field artillery were the worst offenders at killing innocents and turning more Vietnamese against us! Read "Soldier" or "A bright And Shining Lie"!
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skeek1 year, 2 months ago
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"AMAZING! you libs are just too much, your still crying about wars gone bye, all wars started by....DEMOCRATS!"
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Libs? Democrats? I'm sorry, I think you have me confused with Americans. Hold on to your seat but there are other people in this world who are not. That includes the Vietnamese.
As far as I and the other few billion inhabitants of this world are concerned we make no differentiation between your petty party spats. Your wars are all American as apple pie to us.-
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alakazam1 year, 2 months ago
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"Your wars are all American as apple pie to us."
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A harsh indictment but I understand why you feel that way.
As an outsider where do you think the problem lies...you kinda make it sound like you think there aren't people here trying to change it..-
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skeek1 year, 2 months ago
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"Sometimes Giants are only roused by great effort. All I can tell you is some of us are trying real hard."
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Rousing the Giant means waking the people, one at a time. Waking them from their dreams and myths, their national fictions, and waking them to reality.
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Justice4All1 year, 2 months ago
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Perhaps we should follow the example of a country that only allowed immigration from white Europeans up until 20 years ago.
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America has it's problems, not the least of which is GWB. But you should look at your own country before whining about Americans.-
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skeek1 year, 2 months ago
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Your facts are incorrect. I am a product of European immigration this is true, but my parents having migrated 50 years ago.
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Other than that, I offer no defense for the country of my birth. A birthplace, incidentally, simply being a matter of the luck of the draw and nothing anyone, neither you nor I, can take personal credit for. If you had read my profile correctly you would see that I regard nationalism and yes, patriotism too, with contempt.
Therefore your barbs are meaningless to me. They are all so much water off a duck's back. As for whining about Americans, I will continue to do so for as long as your country continues to presume that the world is yours to meddle with, yours for the taking. Get used to it.
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Candida1 year, 2 months ago
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alakazam: "As an outsider where do you think the problem lies"
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"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men."
Lord Acton, 1887
I'm afraid that applies to nations too, not just individuals. Soon after Russia temporarily disappeared from the power balance, the US grew more belligerent.
It is clear that a lot of Americans would like to change things, but I can't comprehend why propaganda is so successful in the US.
Two thirds of the people disagree with the Iraq war, the majority are dissatisfied with the economy, a lot of people are actually suffering as a result of the errors of the Bush administration, and still, about half of Americans are willing/planning to vote for McCain. Why? What kind of difference do they expect from him?
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Tango571 year, 2 months ago
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I can only speak for myself when browsing the comment lines. Whenever I see one that starts out with You libs, dems, republicans, etc. I pass them by. Why? because I've read enough of them to know they lack content, or intellect. Why waste my time on someones rants? I want to read well thought out points of views. First and foremost we are Amercians, not party's. People vote across party lines all the time, why? Because they put America first, party second. At least I hope Americans are smart enough, which I believe in the most part they are. There will always be those who bite off their nose to spite their face.
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Tango571 year, 2 months ago
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I have always held tremendous respect to anyone who gives their life for someone else. There are a multitude of reasons why people do what they do. Is McCain a hero? I don't believe being a POW automatically makes one person a hero. Since all of his records are sealed I'm inclined to believe he must be embarrassed about his behavior. National security reasons would not be an excuse since it is non-existent at this point in time. We need to push in the interest of all Americans to have these records opened. After all, we need transparency.
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alakazamComment removed: Spam
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lloydm651 year, 2 months ago
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Hello libs.nare-do-well, and america haters.You are such a putrid breath of pollution.I can understand why John McCain is not a hero to you or Michael Moore.You have your own collection of heroes The ninteen heroic american haters who gave their all to send a message to america's wimps,that we bomb the world trade center in 93, you countered with lawyers, we killed your troops in somolia,and you ran, we bomb your embassies around the world more lawyers, we even attack a US war ship absolutely nothing happened.You forced us to bring terrorism to america You must listen to us, when the powder puffs in your country take over our job will be half done.Examples.Spain now elects its leaders with our permission,Lebonon is in our control.We would appreciate it if you would keep your head in your a**, and don't try to act like men,and fight us,and for allah's sake listen to your leaders ,and lose that allah awful lapel pin.
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silvera1 year, 2 months ago
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I hope you're not human because you are an embarrassment to us or any other living creature, for that matter. I will have to say your barstool tirade ranks right up there with the worst, most ignorant I've seen on Propeller yet. I'm sure Alpha Gnosis is rolling on the floor...etc.
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CRYMTYPHON1 year, 2 months ago
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An inability to simply and clearly state what you mean, implies you are not really sure what you mean.
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Subject, verb, object, - put them together and make a sentence. Then put one or more sentences together and get a paragraph, stating your point.
You accuse anyone who disagrees with you or Bush, or any american policy or act, of hating America?
That means most americans hate america.
Are you america?
Is it your own face you see when you look at the flag?
Is it thoughts of your great nobility which thrills your heart, when you hear the star-spangled banner? Do you get choked up at the vietnam memorial because you think how noble you are?
lloydm65; it is the people who discuss what mistakes America has made, who guide it; not clowns who do a floor-show of patriotic colors.
Wrap yourself ten-layers deep in the flag; but you aint the flag. -
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TonyByron1 year, 2 months ago
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Didn't China have a roll in Vietnam? I think I heard somewhere that they were extending their communist tentacles there as well as Korea and other places.
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In any case the Americans were evil to get involved. Americans should never use force or threat of force to stop the forced spread of ideologies like communism. Just ask South Korea and the newly-free eastern Europeans and others.-
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Ratskii1 year, 2 months ago
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If you'll check your history, the Vietnamese hated the Chinese. If the U.S. had played its cards right instead of getting so scared about a word "communism," we'd have not only saved 58,000 American and untold Vietnamese lives, but we'd have had a major ally in Southeast Asia (i.e. a united Vietnam with no reason to be hostile to us) to serve as a counter to China. W.W. Rostow and his ilk were fools or worse.
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karathos1 year, 2 months ago
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A Pawn? I take it you know nothing about the military. You do what is asked of you without questioning. Its called discipline and loyalty to ones country. Just another great comment from someone who obviously doesnt or didnt have the guts or fotitude to serve for thier country. One again i say, If you haven served or are not currently serving in the military, Then dont comment on it. Because you dont have a clue what your talking about, nor do you have the right to comment on it.
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Candida1 year, 2 months ago
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karathos: "Just another great comment from someone who obviously doesnt or didnt have the guts or fotitude to serve for thier country."
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There are many ways to serve one's country, for example by keeping it on the right track. Yes, soldiers who are sent to an unjust war to be killed in order to serve others' interests are pawns. There is no dishonor in that. The vast majority of the Vietnam veterans had no choice in the matter. The rest were mistaken, filled with patriotism and not willing to question the justification for the war.
I would be willing to fight if another nation attacked my country, but not to occupy faraway lands that have never posed any threat to it.
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miklkit1 year, 2 months ago
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This is a weak article and I disagree with it. There are many factual errors in it.
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That said, Ho Chi Minh came to the U. S. looking for help first. He was rebuffed and we sent arms and supplies to the French. Only then did he turn to the Russians. The Chinese and Vietnamese have been enemies for a thousand years, and were held at arms length. Look at their relationship now, for example.
In WW2 Ho was rescuing Americans. The first Americans to die in Vietnam were "Earthquake" McGoon and his copilot, shot down at Dien Binh Phu in April, 1954. -
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canadianrancher571 year, 2 months ago
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Sorry I didn't read the artical but have read most of the comments and maybe I'm sort of a different type of Canadian but When I think of Americans I try and forget about the politics of your country. McCain was in the military and when in the military you follow orders so the title of the artical is sort of lame.. One comment I will make on Americans is that if something is wrong such as a war it will eventually change course, the only problem is that those who profit from war spare no expense of supporting both liberal and conservative media as well as both parties to gain their goals. What it eventually comes down to is the American people who believe in America who make the changes to correct mistakes made by the government that they elect but do not control. My respect for the American people remains as stong as ever, for those people who believe in The American dream are the people who continue to make your country great regardless of the politics and the money behind politics.
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Hopefully this came across the right way as I have been having a bit of problems lately with both speech and thought .-
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donald511 year, 2 months ago
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particularly under a repug administration that has an initial executive directive to politicize everything.... and does, to the detriment of most Americans!
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You repugs constantly argue less governemt so things can be kicked down to state level where it is cheaper to buy votes!
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brettodactyl1 year, 2 months ago
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I think it's absurd and rather unpatriotic to question the very fact of McCain being a war hero. Question what you will about his politics, how effective he would be as President, his personal life, whatever. But, the rightness or wrongness of a war itself does not reflect on whether a man heroically served his country and was willing to be tortured and die for it. I really am tiring of Michael Moore, by the way. He's so predictable.
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silvera1 year, 2 months ago
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Actually, McCain is willing to Swiftboat or question ones patriotism on a daily basis. I feel Michael Moore posed a legitimate question that has been on my mind lately whenever McCain plays his POW/war hero card. (now that's "predictable", by the way). I remember the Vietnam War quite well. I often wondered then about those "flyboys" who carpet bombed through the clouds or napalmed or dropped Agent Orange or cluster bombs and then returned back to the base to knock back a few at the officer's club and celebrate their anonymous killing of hundreds if not thousands of innocent civilians. I certainly didn't consider them heroes then and I don't consider McCain a hero now. Was he a hero for surviving 5 years in a POW camp? We may never know since his records in that regard are sealed. His survival may have been a result of just being stubborn and hot headed or, as reported by some of his comrades, being a weasel and a squealer. We can only speculate. Besides, using the Bush, Cheney, Gonzales defenition of torture, McCain wasn't even tortured at all.
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david_nwpa1 year, 2 months ago
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McCain was not a war hero in Vietnam or any other war. He bombed civilians from 30,000 feet. He killed thousands with no remorse and did so indiscriminately. That is a war criminal, much as Johnson should have been declared. However, no one wants to admit the horrible truth that was that misguided war. I know I will catch flak for saying this, but McCain's tales that he tells on the campaign trail sound remarkably like re-written hackneyed half-truths. He is no war hero. He should not be president.
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markmawn21 year, 2 months ago
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Rarely does one get the privilege of meeting with Karma so expediently. Some have to wait a life time, or even for a next life. McCain could have built Spiritual capital with his experience. Instead he has chosen to use it as a political defense shield, therefore not learning the lesson.
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I am sorry, but respect has to be earned, not given freely for a personal experience. Please stop torturing us with this masquerade, Mr. McCain. -
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navythunderbolt1 year, 2 months ago
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War is evil. Most of us tend to agree on that. However no matter how much we dislike war, war will always be a part of the human exsistence. There are few things that really bug me about people here in the US. Our sympathy goes out to the enemy, then we have the nerve to whine about why we are not winning the war. We denounce our own nation by saying we purposely kill innocent people. I have served in the military and I know for a fact we do not purposely go around shooting anything that walks. The harsh reality is war kills people. I'll add that if the tables were turned, would the enemy really care about killing innocent Americans? Did the terrorists on 9/11 target only our military bases? As for what the world thinks of America, they hate us untill they need our help. The world cries about what monsters we are. Why is giving Iraq freedom such a horrible thing? Since when is Freedon horrible.? Maybe the Uniteed States should mind its own business. We tried that in WWII, and Hitler took over most of Europe. After all Hilter's attempt at world domination and the slaughter of millions of Jews was none of our buisness. I bet the people of Europe weren't burning our flag at protest rallies when we liberated them.
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danagr3011 year, 2 months ago
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How naive...I take it you were either not yet born at the time of the Vietnam war or were still in diapers. ALL the bombs dropped in North Vietnam were aimed at military personnel, military materials or military facilities....some missed...the technology of the day. Use your own brain...don't just regurgitate what you have heard about the Vietnam war. Remember, the North had a POLICY of murdering all who opposed it; men, women and children in the South. We had some bad eggs too...no doubt...but it was NOT our policy to harm the innocent. I know, I was there, twice.
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bikertrsh1 year, 2 months ago
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zerObama is an empty-suit liberal, who will trash the stock market, ruin the economy and deprive us of affordable gasoline....yeah and we should all learn spanish so we can understand what all the illegal aliens are talking about. Joe Biden should be at the top of the ticket, then the dumpacraps might actually have someone worth voting for.
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dmsti321 year, 2 months ago
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Being a hero may mean fighting the enemy, even when you are shot down but have a gun on board. Why didn't McCain do that? It is possible to pull a trigger even if your arm is broken. Like his views of Obama, which are distorted and lies, he paints over his 5 1/2 years in prison, as terrible as that was. He denies his wealth, his high style of life, his adultery, and his anger. If he were President when Russia invaded Georgia, he would have gone to war with Russia in order to preserve the oil piped through Georgia. He is hot headed. He acts on impulse. He is still fighting the Vietnam war, which like Iraq was an unnecessary conflict. He will try to win even if he has to bankrupt the country.
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Poulenc1 year, 2 months ago
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Having survived something horrendous is not, on its face, a recommendation for attaining the highest political office America offers.
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People draw an equation between enduring a nightmare, surviving it and character--itself not automatically translatable into job effectiveness.
A lot of water has passed under the bridge since McCain was held captive. He's now a political creature several times over.
The playing field has been leveled. -
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ddiebold71 year, 2 months ago
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You sorry pieces of dung that do not stand behind our troups that live and die for the causes that are leaders have deemed appropriate need to get the "H" out of this country. 58,000 died in Vietnam and you cheap cowardly maggots that live off societies blood need to leave this country and go live in one of these countries that we have fought or are fighting in. You cowards ..... It is people like you that have caused this country to fall. You are not accountable for your actions because of the Constitution of the U.S. If it was not for the brave military people who give their life, your cowardness in many countries would be termed treasonist, and you would have your brains blown out for saying what you have. You take for granted the liberties that these soldiers have protected and you spit on, talk down to the men and women who defend the interests of this country - You make me sick! You hateful liberals that put down even Christian values and deny God - You make me sick! Someday you will stand before the Lord, and give account for the evil that comes out of your mouth, and then you will see what your evil thoughts and actions will send you to!
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Vietnam Veteran
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donald511 year, 2 months ago
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dd, never read any of the history books on Vietnam, do you? Even Westmoreland's book admits to pursuing a set piece battle reminiscent of WW2... tactics which don't win a guerilla war! What do you expect from a field artilleryman in charge of a light infantry war? Invoking religion to condemn those that see the truth... what further hypocrisy!
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ddiebold71 year, 2 months ago
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You sorry pieces of dung that do not stand behind our troups that live and die for the causes that are leaders have deemed appropriate need to get the "H" out of this country. 58,000 died in Vietnam and you cheap cowardly maggots that live off societies blood need to leave this country and go live in one of these countries that we have fought or are fighting in. You cowards ..... It is people like you that have caused this country to fall. You are not accountable for your actions because of the Constitution of the U.S. If it was not for the brave military people who give their life, your cowardness in many countries would be termed treasonist, and you would have your brains blown out for saying what you have. You take for granted the liberties that these soldiers have protected and you spit on, talk down to the men and women who defend the interests of this country - You make me sick! You hateful liberals that put down even Christian values and deny God - You make me sick! Someday you will stand before the Lord, and give account for the evil that comes out of your mouth, and then you will see what your evil thoughts and actions will send you to!
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Vietnam Veteran
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Poulenc1 year, 2 months ago
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Ah, yes. To question one's country's actions, and not to endorse every war an administration deems necessary, is to be unpatriotic.
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For which one will have to answer in a Christian hereafter.....
What about the idea of not sending men and women to war in the first place, an option in the majority of cases?
What about valuing your own life--moral, physical, spiritual, existential--sufficiently not to go? -
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consultantmail1 year, 2 months ago
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FIRST OF ALL; no one is "innocent" ! We come out of the womb speaking lies, (as the Book of Isaiah delares). War is the inevitable result of the sin of mankind and anyone who fights valiantly or suffers consequently is a HERO ! In war, God has commanded to "destroy man woman & child" in refernce to the enemy, "so that they do not pollute your land and corrupt your people", He further states.
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THE PROBLEM IS: all of these "opinioned" egg heads who know not the truth nor care for God's ultimate reality and spout off about McCain and others who have earned their rightful positions in life and then DARE to assault the rest of us with their stench ! These are the same people who are often heard bragging, " well, MY God is a God of love & peace", etc... and since they are not familiar with the gospel speak out of their butts about the God of THEIR imaginations !-
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Poulenc1 year, 2 months ago
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We are not innocent, NOT because we come out of the womb speaking lies--heavens, what nonsense: we can't even speak, cogitate, are pre-moral--but because innocence depends as a concept on its opposite, knowing, which we can't do until we are developmentally able, and until we can make choices for ourselves.
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By which time innocence as a guiding concept is irrelevant. IGNORANCE may be an issue, but not innocence..
And please: ,god is never an argument--not a rational one, anyway.. -
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strawberry091 year ago
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Not an honourable history on the part of the US governing elite, at all - IMHO commenting on McCain is only relevant insofar as it helps cut away the hype surrounding US foreign policy. It's this policy, more than the man itself, that is worthy of scrutiny.
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On Mike's point that "Lest we forget, the Vietnam War represented a mass slaughter by the United States government on a scale that sought to rival our genocide of the Native Americans. The U.S. Armed Forces killed more than two million civilians in Vietnam (and perhaps another million in Laos and Cambodia)."
This related article might be of interest:
"The history of a US war crime" by Allen Myers in Direct Action:
http://www.directaction.org.au/issue4/the_history_...
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