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Posted By Neophile 1 year, 4 months ago in News

McCain's Phoenix Arizona parking lot is worth between $1.4 and $2.4 million. That is over $1 million more than the average American home.

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  • 30%
    normallysilent1 year, 4 months ago

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    anyone with his job and at his age which hasn't made an investment or two I sure wouldn't vote for to lead the country. I bet there wasn't anything the least bit shady about the purchase either.

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    • 80%
      Charlson1 year, 4 months ago

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      "I bet there wasn't anything the least bit shady about the purchase either."
      That's if Cindy's daddy, who has been linked to crime figures Clarence "Teak" Baldwin and Kemper Marley, didn't help McBush buy the parking lot. Oh, he did.

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  • 95%
    Fedquip1 year, 4 months ago

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    reporter: "Define rich"
    McCain: "About 5 Million"

    wow

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    • 67%
      not2needy1 year, 4 months ago

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      Which means i should definitely qualify for welfare, as should the majority of Americans, if 5 million in income is the guideline.

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      • 75%
        joeeddie1 year, 4 months ago

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        Do liberals really see the world in only two levels of existence? One: Rich - Two: Welfare.

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    • 93%
      miklkit1 year, 4 months ago

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      How the heck did he swing a deal for THAT parking lot? There had to be some competition for a parking lot for a baseball field.

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      • 67%
        joeeddie1 year, 4 months ago

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        Further investigation shows that before that lot was made there was a cafe there called "The Paradise Cafe".

        So it is true that McCain did indeed pave paradise and put up a parking lot.

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        • 67%
          not2needy1 year, 4 months ago

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          Good Statement. I think he's probably bull dozed a lot of paradises to get what he wants.

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          • 75%
            joeeddie1 year, 4 months ago

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            You know, it's funny, McCain owns this parking lot and probably makes a fair profit on its use. This effects me in no way whatsoever and why would I begrudge him for doing so. It in no way effects my ability to realize my version of the American dream.

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      • 89%
        crespi1 year, 4 months ago

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        I hope he remembers it...

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        • 87%
          willottica1 year, 4 months ago

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          Don't it always seem to go:
          "You don't know what you've got 'til it's gone."
          They paved paradise, and put up a parking lot.

          This would make a great attack ad, and somehow I think the Democrats would be able to get permission for use of the song:

          ... a mom-and-pop shop being bulldozed, a clearcut forest, fleets of SUVs, a 'made in china' label, a closed manufacturing plant, oil spills covering a beach... powerful images to go with the song. Final image (if they can get it) would be the "Straight Talk Express" parked in an otherwise-empty lot...

          No speech, just the images and the song.

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          • 100%
            cushi1 year, 4 months ago

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            Great idea. I can see it all now...

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          • 75%
            Teech1 year, 4 months ago

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            McLame and his money bags wife definitely qualify for those huge tax cuts for the super rich. No wonder the senile old fool wants to make the Bush tax cuts permanent. What's another 3 or 4 trillion on the national debt - chicken feed.

            Bet McSame doesn't have a sub-prime, negative amortization mortgage on that parking lot!

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            • 80%
              bluetexasvalley1 year, 4 months ago

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              He wants to *double* the cuts for the top 3-5%. He and Cindy would qualify for an *additional* $300,000 in cuts.

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              • 86%
                Lurch1 year, 4 months ago

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                when money comes this easy, how come everybody isn`t as rich as us? the working class are obvious just lazy whiners.

                John S. McCain

                [not really but...]

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                • 67%
                  Charlson1 year, 4 months ago

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                  But could be thinking it, because his advisor Phil Graham said something similar.

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              • 50%
                B1BLancer1 year, 4 months ago

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                > Bet McSame doesn't have a sub-prime, negative amortization mortgage on that parking lot! <

                That's right, because he was smart enough not to make such a stupid decision as to get a loan like that. It isn't the government's fault if people don't read their loan documents and buy more house than they can afford. DUH!

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                • 75%
                  Charlson1 year, 4 months ago

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                  Didn't need a loan when Cindy's daddy helped him buy it. lol.

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                  • 100%
                    cushi1 year, 4 months ago

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                    Do you have blood flowing through your veins, or battery acid? You show a disturbing lack of feelings for your fellow man. The bible speaks of people who cherish money and material things over people - this is the future of those who think like that and act accordingly: "The fruit you long for is gone from you. All your riches and splendor have vanished, never to be recovered"...."in one hour such wealth has been brought to ruin!" Revelation 18:14-17

                    You better check yourself before you wreck yourself!

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                    • Neutral
                      Klarissa1 year, 4 months ago

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                      You can quote the bible to justify anything.

                      If you don't have it, you can't give to charities for people like you.

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                  • 42%
                    4thchance1 year, 4 months ago

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                    Wow,
                    You democrats are truly a bunch of HYPOCRITES.
                    Look back at the 2004 elections. Democrat JOHN KERRY. He too is very rich, he too has a very rich wife, he too was running for President. I don't recall a single one of you democrats or the lefty media criticizing John Kerry for being rich. I do beleive that's called being a true American Democrat HYPOCRITE! Seems you dems middle name is HYPOCRITE. The tripe never stops flowing from your mouths. It's almost funny, but not really. It's actually very sickening... PUKE!!!!!!

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                    • 50%
                      cushi1 year, 4 months ago

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                      It's not the rich man but the rich man's attitude that distinguishes the two from each other! Lots of people have money, but they don't forget where they came from or lose compassion for those less fortunate. They don't turn into George W. Bush, **** Cheney, or John McCain!

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                      • 33%
                        4thchance1 year, 4 months ago

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                        you're grasping at straws my friend!

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                        • Neutral
                          Charlson1 year, 4 months ago

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                          While your sipping kool-aid with yours.

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                  • 87%
                    CHAM1 year, 4 months ago

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                    Now, Now lets not get too tough on the guy. Don't you remember there is only one way for his wife to get around in Arizona? That's by private plane. See she needed a landing strip for that plane and the parking lot serves double duty.

                    So you see, they thought they would save some taxpayer money by making a double use airport/parking lot. Now if he could just remember where it is..............

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                    • 45%
                      lovemylibs1 year, 4 months ago

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                      The tailgate parties here are fantastic.

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                    • 17%
                      Klarissa1 year, 4 months ago

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                      Your candidate's leadership experience:

                      The four plus years (1995-1999) Barack Obama spent as founding chairman of the board of the Chicago Annenberg Challenge (CAC) represent his track record as reformer, as someone who reached out in a public-private collaboration and had the audacity to believe his effort would make things better. At the time he became leader of this ambitious project to remake the public schools of Chicago, he was 33 years old and a third year associate at a small Chicago law firm, Davis, Miner, Barnhill & Galland.

                      This was a big test for him, his chance to cut his teeth on bringing hope and change to the mostly minority inner city school children trapped in Chicago schools. And he flopped big time, squandering lots of money and the time of many public employees in the process.

                      If Ayers were the sole point of interest in seeking the Annenberg Challenge files promised to Kurtz, all "132 boxes, containing 947 file folders, a total of about 70 linear feet of material", then the Obama camp might claim it was merely guilt-by association and persuade at least some of its own partisans. But the fact that Obama was in charge of a massive expensive project makes it indisputably a matter of proper vetting to examine his track record at delivering on promises of hope and change.

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                      • 73%
                        Ithink4myself1 year, 4 months ago

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                        And what did the Republicans do for them again? O yah sent them to war to protect their oil. Oh yah fighting any raise in minimum wage...oh ya wants health care only for the rich, oh yah want to drill everywhere regardless of environmental concerns oh yah wants everyone to follow their Christian religion All Republicans are, are reverse communists like sheep they say : he wants to raise taxes " Like it would make a difference to regular people....no it wont but it would sure change the tax breaks of the rich, anyway it is much more important to ask yourself...what do they do with my taxes those arrogant old oil folk. . I think people voted for Bush because they have about the same IQ he has and everyone knows it is not high.Think boy think for yourself for a change turn off Fox and go see the world

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                        • 27%
                          normallysilent1 year, 4 months ago

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                          I do recall some Dem backing for that war Ithink4myself. You may want to take notes next time the ole memory seems to be failing.

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                          • 67%
                            miklkit1 year, 4 months ago

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                            Have you ever heard of the GIGO Principle? I was taught it in computer science in 1969. Garbage In, Garbage Out. You republicons made up your own"evidence" for your war for oil and spoon fed it to Congress.

                            http://liesofbush.com/

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                            • 20%
                              normallysilent1 year, 4 months ago

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                              Its pretty obvious what your being fed.

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                              • 75%
                                Charlson1 year, 4 months ago

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                                Why, because he wouldn't buy your dribble?

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                          • 17%
                            Endoscopy1 year, 4 months ago

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                            You are obviously the antithesis of your name. You are spouting the same old tired lies that the superlibs say. Obviously you can't think for yourself.

                            The first lie is going to war to protect their oil. Obviously you had your head in the sand as time after time Saddam Hussein thumbed his nose at the UN and did not let the inspectors do their jobs that he agreed to let them do. Then there sere the attacks on our fighters enforcing the no fly zone. You also ignore that there were 13 nations that went into the war with us.

                            Health care for only the rich. You obviously want the health care that Englan enjoys now. You want to see a doctor. Ok get in line and get your appointment in a few months. Then if you are refereed it will take another few months to see that doctor. If you need surgery that is not to save your life immediately then more months. If you have arthritis or heart disease then you self treat. What a system you want to inflict on this country.

                            Have you ever been to an oil field? There are pumps that run send oil into pipes to be taken to a holding tank some distance away. While not pretty they have little environmental impact. In fact the pipeline across Alaska has helped the local environment by keeping the area near ir a little warmer and the animals like to be near it. In ANWR the area would be a few acres out of the huge tundra area. There is not very much there to impact. Northern Alaska is very cold. Then you say we are going to wreck that???

                            You are obviously ignorant about religion. You seem to think that anybody that is one is automatically a Republican. You are trashing a large group of Democrats when you say that. Nancy Pelosie is a Catholic. Most Democrat leaders are religious. Why trash your own party like that.

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                            • 27%
                              Endoscopy1 year, 4 months ago

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                              John Kennedy lowered taxes. Revenue from taxes increased. ever since then when taxes have been raised revenue goes down. When taxes are lowered revenue from them goes up. Republicans in the house several years ago asked the budget office how much money they would get if they taxed at 100%. They sent a huge number to them. They laughed because they knew it would not happen. People like you are like that budget office. How long would you work for no money? People change their behavior based on money taken by the government or getting money from the government. Why do you think a lot of businesses are leaving the country? Could it be the tax laws? Raise them some more and watch more leave.

                              Who are those arrogant old oil folk? Do you have a 401K? are there mutual funds in it? You are probably talking about yourself then. You mean old nasty person.

                              Again the tired old line that all Republican presidents since Reagan are stupid. That is so stupid in and of itself. The present president was a fighter pilot. They don't let anybody fly those planes. Intelligence is one of the criteria. Then he partied through graduate school with good grades while Al Gore had to drop out with intensive studying. Who has the higher IQ?

                              You are addicted to the MSM for your news and they just parrot the liberal line. Therefore you are the one that can't think for yourself. Soros give the moveon.org and mediamatter.org what to say and the media just follows because the great Soros has spoken.

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                              • 80%
                                miklkit1 year, 4 months ago

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                                France has the best health care system in the world. How about those freedom fries? The German chancellor got up and apologized and promised to do better when their health care fell to 8th in the world. America's health care is rated 40th in the world and you republicons are strutting around bragging about it. You have no idea what good is.

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                                • Neutral
                                  Klarissa1 year, 4 months ago

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                                  Germans can buy their own health care on the side.

                                  The last democrat health proposal would send doctors to jail if they accepted private pay.

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                                • 100%
                                  traveler20001 year, 4 months ago

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                                  conccerning the 13 nations going to war with the US (or rather Bush and hos mates):
                                  Actualy it was more 20......
                                  And what nations:
                                  South Korea, Poland, Australia, Roumania, El Salvador (wow), Albania, Bulgaria , Mongolia (yep), Azerbaijan, Czech Republic, Tonga, Danmark, Armenia, Macedonia, Ukraine, Bosnia, Estonia, Kazakhstan, Moldova (I'm sure you know where that is), Latvia, and yes, even Singapour.
                                  impressive, isn't it????
                                  Also Nehtherlands (and they did regret it afterwards), Italy (wel of course), Georgia (mmm), Spain and UK (both trough lies and against the will of the vast majority of the population).....

                                  Concerning the UN inspectors: I advice you to read the book (paperback) of Hans Blizz: it puts an other light on how the inspections were realy going, but what desinformation and misinterpretation the Bush administration made of it in public and to the (US) public opinion. In one passage, Hans Bliz explains how his optimistic and positive words in private to Gondaliza Rice were next day deformed to the media.

                                  That's how you make an illegal war under false pretence

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                                  • 33%
                                    Endoscopy1 year, 4 months ago

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                                    My bad. I was looking at who is there now. One of them is the UAE. They have fun talking to the Iraqis in Arabic and telling them they are Muslims also. That they are there to help them. They do a lot of tension easing and helping build the local governments.

                                    There you go again with the liberal lies. Bus lied. Did Hussein really comply? No. Who kept giving the sanction after sanction trying to get his compliance? Who had the oil for goods scandal? The UN. Bush put the teeth into what the UN was doing. Hussein didn't believe him I guess.

                                    Hans Blitz kept saying that they are starting to comply just give them more time. He said that for about two years. He kept an saying it. "Just give me a little more time." They kept having different ways of stonewalling him. For a while they would get the location from the inspectors in the morning. The trucks rolled there and loaded up and leave at times before he arrived. Satellite photos showed that. Then you want people to believe that Hans Blitz has any credence? His mantra was, "Just a little more time." The problem he had more than enough time.

                                    As of 2006 there were 500 items of WMD found and I have learned from some of those who were there later that the total has risen to 2000. But Bush lied and Hans Blitz is correct.

                                    The Clinton and bush administration including congress and the intelligence agencies were saying the same thing. World leaders and their intelligence agencies were saying the same things. But Bush lied.

                                    You are the liar.

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                            • 60%
                              caine1231 year, 4 months ago

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                              Money is nothing, but wisdom. Obama, I think is the best candidate for it.

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                              • 38%
                                B1BLancer1 year, 4 months ago

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                                I see no reason why this should be a story. McCain has been successful. So flippin' what?! I congratulate him. At least he didn't deal with a convicted felon like B. Hussein did.

                                Obama for president? No thanks. Keep the change.

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                                • 73%
                                  CHAM1 year, 4 months ago

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                                  McCain didn't what? Mc cain didn't deal with a convicted felon? He isn't one of the Keating Five? See all this time I thought he was one of them. If we were to subtract him from that group there would only be four ( this math is to help Bush and his boy's and girls ). The problem for McCain is that he IS the fifth of the Keating Five.

                                  Who were the Keating Five?

                                  Well for starters they bilked the American public of around $2 Billion.

                                  McCain not shady huh?

                                  Liar.

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                                  • 9%
                                    B1BLancer1 year, 4 months ago

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                                    > McCain not shady huh? <

                                    Nope. Not in the least.

                                    > Liar. <

                                    Idiot.

                                    NOBama '08!!

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                                    • 36%
                                      mivan41 year, 4 months ago

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                                      Still spreading the Keating Five lies? All John McCain did was go Hesitantly to a meeting with Keating. McCain told Keating he would come but only to see if Keating was being treated Fairly. That is ALL McCain did. He listened to both sides Whats wrong with that? When Keating asked for special favors McCain denied Keating ANY!

                                      http://www.azcentral.com/news/specials/mccain/articles/0301mccainbio-chapter7.html

                                      McCain was exonerated of all Keating charges along with Dem John Glen the other 3 DEMOCRATS were convicted. You see all John McCain and John Glen did was go to the Meeting with Keating neither granted Keating special favors therefore no laws were broke. AGAIN McCain did NOTHING for Keating, but three DEMOCRATS DID! and those 3 were convicted! GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT
                                      The reason one investigator thought he and John Glen exercised poor judgment was that they went to the meeting.
                                      I somewhat understand that, here you have someone in trouble which helped you get elected part of you wants to at least hear what he has to say maybe you can help in a legitimate way, but you better be prepared for a illegal proposal also..
                                      John McCain had reservations about going, but through urging went anyway. Where John McCain showed Character is that he stood up to Keating and didn't take the wrong path, but that somehow doesn't get mentioned.

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                                        mivan41 year, 4 months ago

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                                        Amazing I get negs for the truth! Yet the Liberal here gets positives for a LIE, Further showing the lack of care for the truth by the Liberals!!!!!!!!!!

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                                      Bruedaddy1 year, 4 months ago

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                                      yeah, right.

                                      that's all you got? rehash old BS.

                                      Lame

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                                      Poulenc1 year, 4 months ago

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                                      Has anyone noticed that those who rise to high position in this country are almost invariably wealthy?

                                      Duh!

                                      The issue is not that they have bucks, but whose interests they'll most immediately (try to) safeguard.

                                      McCain has already made it quite plain that he's on the side of those who already hold all the cards, as of course Bush and Co. were and continue to be.

                                      Helping the rich to get richer isn't a pretty thing to do given the state of our perilously tattered union, is it?

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                                        Endoscopy1 year, 4 months ago

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                                        There is intelligence at work. LOL

                                        Only the wealthy can afford to run. Consider yourself. Is your employer going to pay you for taking a couple of years off to get an election campaign going. What are you going to do to raise that money? It usually takes time and money to travel around and get yourself known to the people willing to invest money into your campaign. It takes time, effort, money, and a belief you can make a difference. Only the wealthy can take that time, effort, and money even on a local level.

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                                      quackpot1 year, 4 months ago

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                                      Come on folks. A rich guy owning a parking lot is not an important issue.

                                      After the past eight years of un-leadership, the U.S. has so many REAL problems to face, we can do without stories on trivia.

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                                        saneman1 year, 4 months ago

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                                        I am more concerned if McCain got taxpayer's money to acquire the parking lot. I am not sure how many actually know that the rich people in this country routinely get free government grants for their pet projects. They don't use their own money. For example, would you be surprised to know that people like Oprah Winfrey, Michael Jordan of basketball fame, Bill Gates, etc. routinely apply for and get free government grants. In addition, corporations employ grant writers who apply for free government grants all the time and in addition, to receiving subsidies from the government, they always receive free government grants. Wouldn't you think that the Republicans/Conservatives would be extremely outraged by this? At least, that's what I always hear on these blogs. But for some unknown reason, they are more than willing to overlook giving not $millions to corporations but actually hundreds of $billions of taxpayers' money to corporations and to the wealthy in this country. In addition to the subsidies, the government gives hundreds of $billions in free grants to corporations and to the wealthy. Talk about hypocrisy!!!

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                                          Klarissa1 year, 4 months ago

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                                          sane - reaching pretty far for something bad???

                                          Look what Obama did with millions of Annenberg money.

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                                            Bruedaddy1 year, 4 months ago

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                                            thats not far at all, practically arms reach man. YOU re the PEOPLE we're talking about

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                                            Endoscopy1 year, 4 months ago

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                                            His wife inherited a lot of money and most likely that is part of it. McCain lets her deal with money matters since it is mostly hers.

                                            All those grants are for paying them for work they are to accomplish. There are government auditors that have to be satisfied that they are doing the work they said they would do. You make it seem like they are getting money for nothing. Free and grant are two words that don't go together. Grants and work do. You are the hypocrite. You are making it look like the money is for nothing in return.

                                            If you want a lot of problems with the government write a proposal to get a grant. Then when you get it do nothing. You will have many interesting talks with the government including prosecutors.

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                                              saneman1 year, 4 months ago

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                                              Actually, I know people who have gotten grants and you are way off base, but I don't need to tell you that, do I?

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                                                saneman1 year, 4 months ago

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                                                Also buddy, free grants mean that they don't have to repay the money back. The people with money don't need free grants. They can use their own money rather than the taxpayers' money.

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                                              Progressive1 year, 4 months ago

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                                              Yes, McCain was successful in dumping his disabled first wife to marry the younger, prettier, rich Cindy, who was successful in being the sole heir of her wealthy father. Who could compare that to Obama, whose single mother had to use food stamps to help provide for her son so that he could grow up to work his way through college, and Michelle, whose blue collar father, despite suffering from Multiple Sclerosis, worked two jobs to put his children through college? Whiners, indeed!

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                                                Endoscopy1 year, 4 months ago

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                                                What a crock that story is. Obama's mother was going to a university in Hawaii when she "married" his father. (His father was already married.) He was born while she was attending that school. Food stamps???? Where did you get that garbage. Her parents were supporting her while at that school. They moved to Hawaii to do that. She later at the same school met and married her second husband and went with him to live in Indonesia. She then gave up her son to send him to her parents to raise in Hawaii.

                                                Michelle Obama's parents were so poor that they sent her to Princeton going on to Harvard Law School. Get real. I wish I could afford to send my kids there.

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                                                kngfish7401 year, 4 months ago

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                                                wow mccain and his wife have been successful. that seems to be a bad thing to the media and liberals. i though america was all about success stories? i guess not when they are republicans. but the whole larry sinclair story doesen't get printed anywhere.....amazing isn't it

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                                                  miklkit1 year, 4 months ago

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                                                  Ah, yes. Cindies father who divorced his first wife and went into partnerships with mob figures.

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                                                    Klarissa1 year, 4 months ago

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                                                    Obama did not work his way through college. He was on scholarships.

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                                                  ronbearoh1 year, 4 months ago

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                                                  McCain has it all. Trophy wife and millions in the bank!

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                                                    iriyejm1 year, 4 months ago

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                                                    Amen to the MAN

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                                                    Klarissa1 year, 4 months ago

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                                                    Check out the wealth of union leaders, movie stars, and athletes. How is that different?

                                                    You are all just jealous. You either don't have the talent or the willingness to put in the work required to be "wealthy".

                                                    It is known as "whining".

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                                                    traveler20001 year, 4 months ago

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                                                    Only in America....

                                                    Guys, grow up, stop mud trowing and all the slander.

                                                    Again, I don't care what Mc Cain did or not in Vietnam (unless it was very bad, e.g. proven fact he was actualy spying for the Vietcon, or proven fact that he was a Russian spy).
                                                    I don't care if he chaets on his wife or not. If he's gay or not. If he goes to chuch or not.
                                                    I'm only intersted in his program and idea's.
                                                    I don't even care if he changed his mind in certain political ideas, solutions or even past decisions. Like Bismarck used to say "only fools never change their minds".

                                                    Same goes for Obama.

                                                    I don't even care that Mc Cain has more house than me, AND a 2 million parking lot. I knew he was/is rich, the better for him. Being rich is nothing wrong.
                                                    However, I now have a BIG doubt over Mc Cain (before, I tought he was a more "liberal" republican). In this interview (so this is not mud nor slander) he realy shows he has no understanding of the problem of "normal" every day people: saying "being rich is starting at an income of about 5 million US dollar"........ wow......
                                                    Now I understand why in his mind giving tax breaks to people who earn e.g. "only" a meagre 2 million, is giving tax breaks to the poor.......
                                                    I can't even understand how you can survive on less than 1 million. (lol)

                                                    By the way (other lol), was that 5milion after or before tax.....?

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                                                      inverse1 year, 4 months ago

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                                                      He is a real elite.

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                                                        lloydm651 year, 4 months ago

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                                                        Aren't you the same girly men who are calling McCain's wife money-bags,the same losers who worshiped at the feet of that turn coat Kerry.I personally can't understand why you keep putting forth such loser,is it that you really don't want a democrat paficist in the white house,or you just plain stupid.

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                                                        cloud151 year, 4 months ago

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                                                        I don't understand the problem.....the man purchases a parking lot and turned it into an investment. Whats the big deal? Hell when I go to Met games it cost 15$ for parking, 5$ more than McCain's lot. I wish he bought a parking lot for Citi Field.

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                                                        Poulenc1 year, 4 months ago

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                                                        lloyd, above, your comment really doesn't deserve a response, but I'm intrigued by your use of the phrase "girly men."

                                                        Besides being misogynistic, and besides assuming that all the posters you address on this thread are male, you evidently feel that those who don't share your political convictions and/or world view aren't sufficiently masculine. (Are all women who differ with you similarly compromised, or do women get a pass because, well, they're not supposed to be tough, strong, aggressive, etc.?)

                                                        This kind of thinking is really, really, really...primitive. You should know that.

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                                                          Charlson1 year, 4 months ago

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                                                          It's either the steriods he's taking, listening to Arnold too much or has seen SNL skits with the "girly men" spouting bodybuilders. Besides

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                                                          fluffychenille1 year, 4 months ago

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                                                          And how much do you think the Kennedy Compound driveway cost? ....Not to mention all his yachts and mansions etc. But everyone loves the Kennedy's no matter how much money they have. @@

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                                                            aljolson1 year, 4 months ago

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                                                            Obama has a house worth at lease that much, and he didn't even pay for it . His mob connections did. Would you buy a used car from that man? And you want him for president? Give me an hour, I'm outta here.

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                                                              skyking2p1 year, 4 months ago

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                                                              the comments in this thread sounds like a bunch of 12 yos.

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                                                                simonsez1 year, 4 months ago

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                                                                Even worse, skyking ... vindictive losers.

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