Comments for U.S. Has Little to Back Up Tough Talk With Russia »
Posted By hsaleem 1 year, 3 months ago in NewsWashington is warning the Kremlin it could face consequences for a decision this week to recognize the independence of two breakaway regions in neighboring Georgia and for continuing to defy calls by the United States and its allies to remove Russian troops from Georgian territory.
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jovial1 year, 3 months ago
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It's all rhetoric from a lame duck President and a wannabe McLame candidate to look tough. This situation has been intensified by the U.S, not respecting Russia's objections to the missile shields. This "Bull in a China shop" foreign policy is alienating us around the world. The McCain's of the world pander to the people of America who maintain a disconnect to the world. Many of those that have never even left the state they live in for all of their lives. This isolationist and arrogant attitude that is being fed by the neoconservative warmongerers must be broken through education and a wiiling acceptance of world citizens and their point of view. Even if it may not always coincide with our own goals and interests in the world. We must use more diplomacy and stop threatening and bullying other countries to do what's in our interest. This is what we as Americans really need. If we don't stop bullying, then how can we still tell other countries to stop doing it?
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gamahuche1 year, 3 months ago
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This is very simply pay-back time for Kosovo.
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The idiocy of creating THAT "independent" state, which has NO viability whatsoever, is now being brought home to roost.
Tighten your seat-belts, chaps - this is all going to get a lot worse before it can possibly get better.-
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donald511 year, 3 months ago
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gama, its not for Kosovo because Bill Clinton had the OK from the Russians, China and all of NATO before we went in there. Dumya has just shown the world that he can get away with preemptive war... and emboldened the world, especially Putin!
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Every country has the God given right to self determination!-
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hyperbola1 year, 3 months ago
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The former Chief Prosecutor for International Tribunal says Clinton was also just playing power games and that we have been deluded about Kosovo.
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International Criminal Tribunal: The US lied about Yugoslavia
The former chief prosecutor of the International Criminal Tribunal for Yugoslavia in The Hague, Carla Del Ponte, this year published her memoir The Hunt: Me and War Criminals. There was no genocide in Kosovo. The "holocaust" was a lie. The Nato attack was fraudulent.
http://www.propeller.com/story/2008/08/18/internat...
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mesodude1 year, 3 months ago
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Wow...LOL like we had anything to back up our invasion of Iraq. We're spending billions to send the same people back again and again (to cons "all volunteer military" means as long as someone can be bribed to go back again and again, it's good for them and our military to send the same handful of people to do all the fighting for something that's supposedly the battle of the 21st century). Amazing. ;-(
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Searchbeam1 year, 3 months ago
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I think the NeoCons are way past getting educated.
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They dropped out of School of Logic, Common Sense and Diplomacy a long time ago.
All they have is false bravado. Anytime there is a consequence to their cowardly actions, they just crawl under the rock.
These villains are responsible to the TOTAL DAMAGE done to our country over the past 8 years.
Some day, when the truth comes out, they will have no place to hide.
All of the rejects are now feeding off the "consulting" trough at the Pentagon and some others are nibbling at some obscure agencies.
Don Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz and their ilk don't have much time left.
This free lunch will be over soon.
I hope they have lined up fake passports and fake identities to go to some Latin American hideout. It is going to be scorching hot here very soon!
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Blackacereturn1 year, 3 months ago
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This is a direct result from our actions in Iraq. First China and now Russia...how can we tell them not to invade other nations when the standard bearer set the standard. The worlds moral leader blinked and all the tyrants sees it as an opportunity to behave badly. If we put the republicans in office again this will be the norm.
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So what if the white house act tough, so what if McCain talk tough did Russia bglink in the face of that? No!
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berkeley1 year, 3 months ago
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the bush/cheney bubble is large enough to include their yes-men advisers, but is a bit smaller than including europe, much less russia.
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while cheney wants an empire, there is no evidence that the american people are clamoring for one, and even if we were, we couldn't afford it.
it is way past time for the congress, the media, and the people to rise up and tell cheney to go back underground for the next six months.-
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donald511 year, 3 months ago
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Berk, on your second point: Americans knew of PNAC before the 2OOO and and 2004 elections... and still voted for Dumya, unless the Bushies/Diebold really did rig everything!
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on your last: regardless of what you tell Congress the Senatorial Repugs and Dumya's veto can still block it! Give the Dems 2/3rds of the Congress and we will see the change. We are just one vote away from losing habeas corpus and instilling the UNitary Executive with the current Supreme Court - a 2/3rds Congress can stop this too!!
So, you got one out of three right!-
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berkeley1 year, 3 months ago
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i grant that pnac was available to all who could read, but that's a little different from saying "we" knew about it. the details were not featured on the evening news, on talk radio, or in congressional hearings. if they had been, along with the costs and risks, it is most unlikely the document would have been approved by more than a small percentage in any forum.
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the combination of diebold and human fraud was well-documented by mark crispin miller, for both elections.
finally, i admit that telling **** cheney where to go is a pure pipe dream with no substance whatsoever. if we have not done it in eight years, it's probably not going to happen now. but that's what dreams are for.
so how about 2.5 out of 3?-
doggammitComment removed: Retracted by user
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Searchbeam1 year, 3 months ago
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berkeley,
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If my memory serves me right, war crimes have no statute of limitations! The Nuremberg Trials established that.
Even a Presidential Pardon will not help.
Shotgun Dickie will have his day in the Hague, and it will not be pretty!
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jordan111 year, 3 months ago
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They're setting up a scenario that will give our next President & Congress that will take incalculable wisdom to fix. And if we don't dump the idiots in Congress, and put someone with intelligence in the Presidency, it won't be fixed. The American people had better grow up, & stop acting like ignorant fools or we're going over the cliff.
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Poulenc1 year, 3 months ago
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donald511 year, 3 months ago
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Most tragic are the destroyed families of the soldiers killed and maimed, to include those of the 1.2 million Iraqis who have died since we invaded! And, for just lies!
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America has turned away from civilization under Dumya and his sycophant repugs who have voted almost lock step with him for almost 8 years now! Since Newt's Contract With America... its been only llies from the repugs! Repugs need to be declared a terrorist party in America and the world!
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Bkumm1 year, 3 months ago
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And here we see the effect of involving ourselves in a "war on terror" rather than addressing terrorism as a law enforcement problem.
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In short, Russia knows that it can get away with this kind of adventure because Europe certainly doesn't have the military strength to back up any threat and the US is involved in two wars in Asia.
As I see it, we (the US) have only two choices:
1. Begin an immediate drawdown of troops in Iraq, with the understanding of our gallant soldiers that they will be needed to decide the issue in Afghanistan. The US should also ask the NATO and Arab allies to assist in economic, social and infrastructure rebuilding in Afghanistan. Ultimately, because of it's location on the border of Pakistan and Iran, Afghanistan is far more important to our interests than Iraq. Further, we need to help the Afghans find some sense of national unity so that we can begin to withdraw our troops by the end of 2010. We're going to be in Iraq and Afghanistan for a long, long time as advisers and security, but we should be there as friends, helpers, allies and not as occupiers or invaders. We must work with the governments of Iraq and Afghanistan to ask them what they need from us, so that we can help them, with the understanding that our help is neither unlimited, nor without certain risks both to us and to them. This will provide us with enormous strategic advantages in a region where Russia has shown a historical interest.
In addition, the US should work strongly with our European allies to build immediate bridges of honest, open friendship to the people of Iran. It's location, gives the US certain strategic advantages that are necessary to dampen the current Russian enthusiasm for expansion, especially in this region.
Lastly, we should work with our industrial and scientific sectors to hasten breakthroughs in green energy technology which will have an impact on the global oil market, thus strangling Russia of much need foreign capital, which in turn will slow their military expansion.
2. Keep going the way we are, merrily tripping down the road to a town called Armageddon.
I'd be more detailed, but... -
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cowboygrandpa1 year, 3 months ago
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Well, I've been expecting this for a while now.
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Everyone fell all over themselves with their simplistic delusions of Ronnie Raygun breaking the Soviet Union. LMAO hahahahahahaaaaa hahahahaaaa.
All he did was give them time to rearm and fix their faultering economy while we squandered our opportunity to truly defeat communism with the Bush Cheney fiasco. Yeah here is a real good plan for the destruction of a country. Elect Bush and Cheney and allow them to basically do what they want.
Hey maybe we can send them to Russia for a while, I'm sure they'd go after someone's oil and ruin their economy and future as well.
I never bought into the Reagan hero worship and this part of the reason, He was an actor who didn't understand how evil and cruel, greed and stupidity are combined. His economic trickle down policies and shipping of jobs out of America created wealth around the rest of the world. While slowly robbing us of ours. His simplistic views of the world reminded me of a movie where there is a happy ending, because it was written into the movie that way.
This is what has allowed the foulness of the Bush Cheney terror to run amok and steal our last reserves of integrity around the world.
Never elect actors to political positions. They are actors not smart. Not warriors, not wise in dimplomacy, not capable of being in charge of the greatest country in the world.
Russia doesn't have to listen to us because we had stupid leaders in office during the Reagan years and they bought into the lie. Now we have Dumbo-Cheney- and Goofy- Bush- and the Russians see them as the cartoon characters they are.
We better be ready to get back to work and elect some real leaders. Because Russia has beaten Bush into ground where he is just a worthless shrub and Cheney is still watering him with his own water system.
Thanks for the invite hsaleem.-
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hsaleem1 year, 3 months ago
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"We better be ready to get back to work and elect some real leaders."
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I don't think you and me can get this done. This is the mainstream media that is controlling the elections. Check out this video http://brokencrystal.com/?p=152
"Thanks for the invite hsaleem"
Pleasure.-
davidhallstromComment removed: Spammer4 Replies
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cowboygrandpa1 year, 3 months ago
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hsaleem:
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Thanks for the link. Interesting and quite true.
What makes me laugh -sarcastically- is that Bush fans still say he is a Christian. Yes I 'm quite sure he is just like Hitler was in his own eyes and those who placed him above the truth.
Here is something for the right wing nuts to ponder. God showed us in the Revelation of Jesus Christ what was to come. You so called Christians who back these lunatics claiming to be Christians are fulfilling the foretold events. Just as God used the Assyrians, Romans, and various other groups to show Israel the folly of not following his way. These so called Christians are bringing about the very things God saw and said would be.
They like to think that it is God's will. I don't ever remember God wanting anyone to be out of his way. Instead he allows them to be consumed by their own pride and ways and then brings in the ones who show them the folly of their ways.
I see this happening more and more, as the right wingers and left wingers desperately try to make things happen their way. The more they try to force their will claiming it is God's will the faster we come to Armageddon.
They try to clothe their political rhetoric and greed in religious doctrine. Hahahahaaaahaahaa, Like God doesn't know the truth of their lies.
Watch for more of all "Religious Leaders" to call for peace at any cost. While dealing in treachery to all.
They are going to try to enslave us all with the fear of war. -
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not2needy1 year, 3 months ago
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If we don't HURRY UP and get someone in the WH that will try to rebuild our relationship with other world nations, we are going to end up being nuked in our sleep! By that time, Bush will be snug as a bug in Paraguay, thumbing his nose and giggling like an ignorant school boy.
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capj711 year, 3 months ago
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The basic premise of this article is correct, if you believe that a military option is the only solution, but there are a wide range of diplomatic options available. There really isn't a military option, and since John McCain can only think in military terms, electing McCain will be courting disaster.
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skeek1 year, 3 months ago
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/aug/28/russia.usforeignpolicy
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"Kishore Mahbubani, Singapore's former UN ambassador, observed in the Financial Times a few days ago, "most of the world is bemused by western moralising on Georgia". While the western view is that the world "should support the underdog, Georgia, against Russia ... most support Russia against the bullying west. The gap between the western narrative and the rest of the world could not be clearer.""
I always find that whenever the US wags its finger and stomps its feet at another country it always, somewhere in the bellicose rhetoric, claims to be the spokesperson for the "international community." It's one of Condolezza Rice's favourite clichés.
I live out here in the "international community" and from what I can tell from my immediate experience is that not only does the US not speak for me nor anyone else I know but I and others resent the fact that it presumes it has the authority to do so. What the US regards as the "international community" is, in reality, little more than itself, Britain, Israel, and a small handful of, at times reluctant, European heads of state, essentlally the former white Eurpean empires. And even then, it cannot claim to have the full support of its own citizens and let alone the citizens of this tiny posse for which it is so very vocal.-
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fishifanb1 year, 3 months ago
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Trust me. This self-righteous, bellicose manner grates on many Americans too. We are not all blind to the hypocrisy so often displayed by our leaders.
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I, for one, never fell for the argument that our invasion of Iraq was an action of the international community. It was clearly the U.S. and Britain, with token help from some allies too afraid to cross the war-mongers in the white house.-
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skeek1 year, 3 months ago
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"Trust me. This self-righteous, bellicose manner grates on many Americans too. We are not all blind to the hypocrisy so often displayed by our leaders."
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My point exactly.
If America claims to speak for the "international community" where is this representation? Certainly not amongst the number of nations within that community, nor is it represented by the citizens of those few nations that stand alongside America, in fact, as you so rightly point out, America doesn't even have a mandate from its own people!
So who is this "international community"?
It is nothing more than an insignificant number of government and corporate representatives in the US, Britain and Europe who wish to maintain the imperial order of white, western supremacy. Nothing more. They appear larger than life only because they have control of the western media which dominates the world, and of course, they control most of the world's military might. This is what America calls the "international community."
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ind061 year, 3 months ago
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Not surprising, as we couldn't do anything to stop the Russians in Afghanistan, other than covertly ship in arms, and we were doing much better then than now.
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Time for a little RealPolitik, what do we get for helping Georgia? From what I understand the Georgia / Russia / East Ossatia conflict is complicated with no clear good guys, so why are we even bothering to get involved?
It's like showing up at a friend's house and his brother and sister, whom you've never met, get into a fight about someone you've never seen or heard of and you decide, on the basis of not knowing them, or the person they're arguing about, to step into the middle of it all and sternly lecture them on what they should do.-
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alakazam1 year, 3 months ago
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From what I get of it the South Ossetians feel that they have the right to live free from Georgian oppression.
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If they feel that strongly about it then they do. So why isn't America defending them?
I would like to hear some reliable reports about what is happening there. -
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ind061 year, 3 months ago
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"That's exactly what did stop the Russians"
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Yeah, couldn't have been a NATION of Afghani guerilla fighters, it was just us. Well then, we won't have any trouble with this Georgia thing either, because we're already selling arms there. Not that we should be, not that we should even care.
It's like a horrible confluence of the left wing nanny state extending itself to encompass the world and the right wing seeing their chance to resurrect the old Russia bugaboo that worked so well for them during the cold war. Am I the only person who remembers how the Republicans floundered for a few years when the U.S.S.R. collapsed?
And again, we're just stepping into that family argument where we don't have any business being and really have not much of an idea what's going on. But things like that never stopped us from poking our nose in before, why quit now?
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Goppy1 year, 3 months ago
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Once again ... our Ideologically Driven President REFUSES to meet with the Russians ... preferring to view them as 'Part of the Axis of Evil'.
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Condi has been doing Shuttle Diplomacy with Georgia .... and totally ignoring Russia.
You know, part of being Presidential is MANAGING Situations ... NOT exacerbating them with intransigence and ideological hostility.
I just hope these crazy folks don't do anything crazy before they are unceremoniously escorted from our nation's Capitol.-
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Georgia501 year, 3 months ago
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Go-pee,
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First of all, my liberal friend, I'm glad to see you got through Fay ok. I trust your loved ones are ok, too?
Exactly how is the US to take Medvedev seriously when he can barely conceal the puppet strings by which Putin animates him? Russia is at this time a cynical insult wrapped in enigma--at the behest of a former KGB operative. Sure...let's use diplomacy with Russia--as it IS, not as it wants us to IMAGINE it is.-
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Georgia501 year, 3 months ago
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Why should Russia negotiate with us? The position of you libs is that we are powerless to stop them. Thus, the Russians, by your calculation, have absolutely no reason to negotiate.
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Either your calculus is faulty or there will be no negotiation. Which is it?
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alakazam1 year, 3 months ago
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You address the premise of the Title? Neat :)
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The U.S. has a lot more military might than people who have never actually been exposed to it could imagine.
It's the way things are...never ever underestimate the ability of the US to wage war.
Provoking America into all out War would be a very bad idea even in conventional terms.
The wrong people have their hands on the switch.
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rwrnaeComment removed: Hard Banned
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wildman65571 year, 3 months ago
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Back up our tough talk with what?
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Russia controls Europe's oil and gas supply, they have billions of dollars in the bank and their military is not tied up in two overseas wars. Any move by us will just result in the United States taking it on the shorts. All Bush can do is talk tough and all the while the Russians laugh, and laugh and laugh. Super power indeed. -
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pongping1 year, 3 months ago
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""U.S. officials have suggested that, as punishment, Russia could be excluded from key international institutions, like the G8, and blocked from joining economic and trade organizations it wants to join, like the World Trade Organization and the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development.""
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What that means is that the Washington-Jerusalem view of how this world should work will be irrelevant in another 25 years. We're going to take our ball and go home. Boo Hoo. -
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saneman1 year, 3 months ago
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Isn't the U.S. in favor of territories gaining their independences whenever possible? Why would the U.S. be against the breakaway provinces from gaining their independence from Georgia when the U.S. favored the breakup of the Soviet Union years ago? I guess what's good for the goose is not good for the gander especially when Bush has done nothing but preach about freedom, freedom ........ Just like a broken record.
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vor1 year, 3 months ago
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You know that when Cheney allows Condi to comment on any international situation nothing is going to happen militarily. He gave her the Palestinian-Israeli issue as well. Nothing will come of that either. Remember that Bush looked into Putin's soul and pronounced him a good man. Wonder what's going on in that fuzzy mind of his now?
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beavith11 year, 3 months ago
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do any of you read?
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please read yesterday's op-ed page in the Wall Street Journal. there's a solid letter from teh Georgians about how it got started.
a little back story for thespouters here.
Georgia is a west looking liberal democracy that had every intention of joining NATO. the russians trumped up local differences in S Ossettia and Abkhazia to stop Georgia's turn to the West. the russians installed 'peacekeepers' there that prevented Georgian police from cleaning up terrorists in their own country. its just a bit differnt than what Hitler did when he annexed the czech Sudentenland to protect the local ethnic germans.
Kosovo is a weak and wrong pretext for the russians to use.
the russians invaded. the georgians protected tehmselves before they got run down by the russian tanks andartillery.
you ask why we should give a crap about georgia? oil. an alternative pipeline that drained oil out of Central Asia went through Georgia. with Georgia essentially cut in half, the only way for oil and gas to get to europe is through russian pipelines that travel north through Ukraine and Byelorussia.
while the most liberal members of propeller say, its not our fight, it will be the europeans that are thrown over the barrel and ultimately us when europe can't get off teh russian oil teat.
this is a bold world impacting power play by the kleptocracy that we call russia.-
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ind061 year, 3 months ago
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http://www.inogate.org/inogate/en/resources/map_oi...
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A map of the oil pipelines in existence in Europe suggests that they are not dependent on the single pipeline running through Georgia. Really, how could they be? Most of these pipes were built before the U.S.S.R. broke down at which point Georgia was "Soviet Georgia". Europe was not running its oil pipelines through Soviet Georgia.
In fact, most European oil is delivered in tankers, across the Black and Mediterranean Seas. The major pipelines running from Iran and Iraq go through Turkey with other major arterials either under construction or being upgraded to carry higher volume from Algeria to Switzerland, France, Spain and Italy; from Tunisia to Sicily; From Libya to Sicily and on to Italy and from Egypt and Syria to Turkey. These pipelines are not being built or upgraded from fear of Russia cutting off Europe's oil supply but to cut down on the extremely heavy traffic in oil to Europe carried by tankers.-
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beavith11 year, 3 months ago
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things change.
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the Baku Tbilisi and Ceyhan (BTC) line runs through Georgia now, thru to Turkey where an oil tanker filling station is built in the Mediterranean. it was built to bypass any issue withthe dardanelles. brand spanking new. The russians are aslo building a 'North" pipeline that will connect Germany France and the surrounding countries with russian gas. they are also building a 'South' line that will supply italy.
hit google again. look for lines under construction. note the proposed completion dates.
call me a negative nelly, but this is not good.
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bluetexasvalley1 year, 3 months ago
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"there's a solid letter from teh Georgians about how it got started."
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Yes, and there are hundreds of news stories and speeches about why we invaded Iraq. How many of those were true?
There are always at least two stories told about how hostilities begin. He hit me first. No, she hit me first.
Why do you assume that the Georgians are the ones telling the truth? Could it be because McCain's chief foreign advisor (who made a lot of money lobbying Washington for the Georgian government) says this is the way it happened?
Me, I am more likely to believe whoever does NOT have a vested interest in the situation.-
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beavith11 year, 3 months ago
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did you read it?
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the russians said that they were suprised by the ferocity of the Georgian attack, yet had 200 tanks in Georgia in two days.
the most telling comment was that it'd take 2 days to fuel up and stage 200 tanks.
any former tankers here on propeller?
the russians were breaching the Georgian border.
its one thing to say 'nuh uh' and believe what you like, but what happens when what you believe doesn't square with the facts?
more importantly, what do you think we should do if the russians invade, the Baltics, Poland, the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Romania, Bulgaria, Hungary? for that matter Ukraine?
the invasion of Georgia is a shot across our bow. we do nothing at our own peril. even the chinese who have no horse in this race beeched about it.-
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CORVIDIVS1 year, 3 months ago
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... it would be a shot across our bow only if we had a legitimate presence there other than nosing our way in anywhere a foothold might guarantee more & more hegemony for the bottomless appetite that the new world order seems to have established as indispensable...
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GOOD OLD Apple Pie was a break away state,but i guess that's DIFFERENT,nes pas...-
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beavith11 year, 2 months ago
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what?!?
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hegemony?
foothold?
what was illegitimate about us training the georgian troops and making economic deals that are mutually beneficial, as two free and independent countries.
the russians brutalized georgia to take away western free market access to central asian oil and also because they could.
had georgia been a member of NATO, i'm not sure this would have happened.-
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CORVIDIVS1 year, 2 months ago
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... the problem being,that Apple Pie looks nothing now but disingenuous in much of what it does or says in this part of the world.Now why would that be,because a bunch of naughty libs are out to discredit republicans....
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Georgia was former Soviet turf,and the gay divorcee has settled perhaps too quickly into another's arms for jealous shots not being fired back & forth.Of course the byzantine hydra of OIL has reared its ugly heads...-
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beavith11 year, 2 months ago
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i'd appreciate very much if you speak in plain english rather than allegory.
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are you saying that because georgia was once a soviet socialist republic that it can never be independent and have its own foreign policies?
what of, then, latvia, lithuania, estonia, etc....
can they ever be independent of russia? should NATO be concerned? does that mean ukraine can't join NATO?
russia's obvious ploy to block access to central asian oil is not a ploy
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CORVIDIVS1 year, 2 months ago
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it's interesting,your allusion to the sudetenland,and perhaps quite true and reprehensible,but pretexts for war are always on the table in one form or another,or pretexts, say, for protecting interests even if force is 'expedicious'...
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Russia is in a very new game now,and finding ways to be a thorn in her side might not be as patriotic to the ideals of democracy as is touted here and there.Putin has the agony of a country torn apart by its past and its present, as it flails about trying to become part of a modern economy,and things we do to upset it are viewed by me,and perhaps by others as vulgar and arrogant, not unlike Bush' pre-visit speech about the celestial empire's recent human rights history, [a sort of out-of-left-field admonishment that was somehow perceived as a 'perk', a guaranteed rider for accepting an invite to the games]... -
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