Candace Gingrich: A Letter to My Brother Newt Gingrich »
Posted By david_nwpa 7 months, 2 weeks ago in Political NewsI recently had the displeasure of watching you bash the protestors of the Prop 8 marriage ban to Bill O'Reilly on FOX News. I must say, after years of watching you build your career by stirring up the fears and prejudices of the far right, I feel compelled to use the words of your idol, Ronald Reagan, "There you go, again."
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david_nwpa
Hello folks,
Welcome to my little corner of Propeller. I am also available as davidnwpa09 on Twitter.com. I have many followers on Propeller whom ...
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david_nwpa7 months, 2 weeks ago
Sounds like Thanksgiving at the Gingrich household this year ought to be loads of fun. Think Newt and his sister will make up in time to pass one another the sweet potatoes? I highly doubt it. Prop 8 did divide brothers against sisters, and sometimes against one another. Candace is right; the younger generation sees the hatred involved in Prop 8 and the bigotry now enshrined in the California Constitution. May their Supreme Court have the wisdom to remove it with all due speed!
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UnusualSuspect7 months, 2 weeks ago
"This is a movement of the people that you most fear. It's a movement of progress -- and your words on FOX News only show how truly desperate you are to maintain control of a world that is changing before your very eyes." - Candace Gingrich
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She's right...the Republicans, after losing badly three weeks ago, know that they are losing supporters in droves.
Time they woke up...if they want to continue being a party of any substance, they better learn how to adapt with the times...
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boots72_7 months, 2 weeks ago
david_nwpa, I know that this is a very sensitive issue, and I respect the opinions of all. However, it seems as if the people against Prop. 8 are trying to force their values on everyone else.
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I think we can all disagree and still live with one another. It should be a right to be able to marry the same sex if that is a person's choice. I think this should be where it stops though.
I do not think same sex relationships should be taught in schools. I just don't think it's fair to teach children that it is perfectly normal when it is not.
Even a bank robber knows what he is doing is wrong, and won't tell everyone it is right. My point is, everyone should have the choice to marry who they want, but these values should not be passed on to children around the world. I hope no offense is taken to my comments, as I appreciate your stories and look forward to discussing all our differences on Propeller...-
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mntnman4447 months, 2 weeks ago
I see it in the exact opposite way.People already have the right to marry who they choose,this amendment was intended to force christian and mormon beliefs on all citizens by taking rights away.
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"The constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people,it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government."
-Patrick Henry -
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david_nwpa7 months, 2 weeks ago
I could not disagree with you more. I do think that same sex relationships are normal and that your morality should not be shoved down my throat. Just because your religion or your church teaches you one thing does not give your church or its followers the right to tell me how to live my life.
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As for teaching such topics in school, we do have some room for agreement. I do not think the topic of marriage (gay or straight) is an age appropriate topic for younger children. Children are not old enough or mature enough to understand the nuances behind marriages and adult relationships. That said, children eventually do grow and can make up their own minds. Sheltering children from the world throughout their entire school time is nonsense. Children should be exposed to dating, relationship development and in general sex education in an age appropriate manner.
I do enjoy posting these comments and no offense is taken by your comments. However, do understand that if gays and lesbians do not continue to stand for their own lives and rights, who will stand for us? We must speak out and be proud of who we are or our rights will be quashed. It is for that reason that teaching children in an age appropriate way is a necessity. -
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ForrestPhelps7 months, 2 weeks ago
To boots72_:
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I gave you a negative, only because of this statement in your post:
"I just don't think it's fair to teach children that it is perfectly normal when it is not."
I applaud you for treating this issue carefully, and not meaning to give any offense. But labeling any other humans as not normal is bound to be offensive.
Just wanted you to know why you got the neg. -
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sinophil497 months, 2 weeks ago
boots - What an absurd comment to make - "it seems as if the people against Prop. 8 are trying to force their values on everyone else."
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All that the gays are asking for is to be allowed to marry their beloved and to have the same rights as all the other citizens of this great nation. They are not taking away anything away from the Christian right or straights. They are not imposing anything on anyone else.
The Christian right still have the right to perform the ritual of marriage as they see fit, whether it is a sacrament or not. They still have the right to exclude gays from their religious congregation and ceremonies.
Marriage as a civil procedure and a social contract between 2 people who love each other has nothing at all to do with religion.
So for the far right Christians to ban gay marriage with a constitutional amendment is to force THEIR values on everyone else.
And who are you to dictate to everyone else what is normal behavior? Love and sexual attraction are innate, biologic phenomena. For gays, that is THEIR normal behavior.
You conflate "normal" behavior with "majority" behavior. The majority of the population may not be gay, but that is not what is normal for ALL individuals.
And why do you bring up bank robbery? Is being gay now a crime in your mind? Have gays robbed you of anything? Have they lessened you or harmed your property in any way?
Gay values can NOT "be passed on to children around the world." Homosexual attraction is biologically determined. You can not learn it; you can not be converted to it; you can not be infected by it. The only thing that will change in children is greater tolerance of people who are different and who have different lifestyles or values from yours. -
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wtagg7 months, 2 weeks ago
So, if 51% of the voters in an election voted to take away gun ownership, you would be ok with that?
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rimbaud7 months, 2 weeks ago
Children will learn about same-sex relationships from those of their peers who have two dads or two moms. If my child were to grow up gay, I would like it that she could look back to her education and not feel horrible or afraid, but aware. I think it's perfectly OK, when a child reflects, to a parent, what they were taught in school and the parent responds that certain things taught in school are not the accepted belief at home or of their religion. I only hope that the parent does not respond in anger (I witnessed a parent's reaction to a child's reflecting on a school lesson in evolution that scared me almost as much as it did the child).
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ETproductions7 months, 2 weeks ago
boots72 wrote: "I do not think same sex relationships should be taught in schools. I just don't think it's fair to teach children that it is perfectly normal when it is not.
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Even a bank robber knows what he is doing is wrong"
When someone robs a bank, that action hurts everyone who has deposits there. It hurts the bank's shareholders. And since banks don't just hand over money for the asking, bank robbers generally employ some threat of harm in order to get what they want.
Now I am straight, and have been married to the same woman for 32 years. I live in Boston's South End. There are many gay couples here. They aren't hurting me by being happy within their own walls loving one another. They aren't robbing me, or using threats of force to deprive me of what's rightfully mine. They aren't even in our schools teaching people to be like them.
There were once laws against interracial marriage too. Hate groups even had an ugly name for such "threats to decent society: -- miscegenation. Remember that? Whenever the majority votes to force their ways upon a minority, that is a perversion of everything the foundational words of this nation imply.
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." -
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jordan117 months, 2 weeks ago
However, it seems as if the people against Prop. 8 are trying to force their values on everyone else. >>>>
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And what exactly are the proponents of Proposition 8 trying to 'force?' Their "values" perhaps? -
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hamy7 months, 2 weeks ago
So it is better to teach children to be afraid of something that they don't understand and fill them with hatred then to let them know that there are gay people in the world?
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I don't understand.
And though YOU might feel that a gay person is "sinning" or whatever, I don't. I don't think that loving someone is "wrong." And this isn't about "right" or "wrong," anyway. It is about RIGHTS. Legal rights. And the law doesn't heed to your religious beliefs.
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not2needy7 months, 2 weeks ago
I guess Candice told old Newt off, but good! HAHAHA
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Now as to the above comments.. I didn't see anything in the article that said anything about teaching same sex or straight marriages in the schools at all. I'm not sure what influence a school could make on a person's sexual orientation anyway. It is what it is, and i don't see how sex ed could change a gay person into a straight, or vice versa!
Live and let live, it's not our place to judge anyone.-
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StevieGee7 months, 2 weeks ago
The whole teaching about gay marriage is schools was made up by the yes on 8 campaign and used in advertisements. It's a lie.
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earthlingererComment removed: Spam
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slate7 months, 2 weeks ago
In the end of this argument I agree that any ’adults’ in love should be allowed to be married and have all the rights. My marriage will in no way be harmed by gays that love each other being married. Fighting over this word isn’t doing anyone any good.
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My best friend at work is a gay woman; she refers to her partner by name, but like me, keeps talk about family to the minimum. She and I don’t talk about sexuality. We don’t have to, it’s obvious to us what that is. She doesn’t wear her sexuality on her sleeve nor do I. We talk politics; which are heated, since she and I have opposing views, she voted not for Obama per se, but more against Palin. In the end there many things we agree on.
The one thing she has told me she has distain for is the overt parades she sees on TV held in California. She tells me that sexuality is too important and private to her to be involved in such a public way. Hey she’s just like me in that sense.
Now I will let the devil’s advocate in me come out for a minute.
If the gays get this wish, will it be over and the gays will feel vindicated and equal, and we can move past it all? Will they (you) go live their (your) lives in peace and anonymity about your sexuality as most do including my friend? Or, is there the ‘next’ step of a planned agenda that will be their focus?
Don’t lambast me; just answer the simple notion as concisely and respectfully as possible. I’m just interested in what the gays feel about it. Will you then be cool with your standing in this country after getting this or are there other things that you will then turn your energy towards with the same zeal after this step is complete?-
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david_nwpa7 months, 2 weeks ago
Frankly, if gays and lesbians are allowed to wed their beloveds, I am ready to attack some more. I say go after the travel and tourism industry that allows straight people to decorate hotel lobbies.
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Seriously, no hidden gay agenda exists. In this struggle for equal rights, this is the last major hurdle. I am still concerned about DADT, but then so are 100 retired military officers and 150 Reps in Congress. Equal rights are all we seek. Gays and lesbians do not have an indoctrination program, that's the Scientologists. -
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hamy7 months, 2 weeks ago
The point of those parades that everyone has such a big problem with is pride. The parades are there because they have to be. If they weren't, would any of this be happening? I long for a day when we don't need the parades. When we can just be happy and live our lives without having to fight.
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But since I was a child, we have been fighting. We were fighting for our lives in the 80's and 90's and now we are fighting for our rights to live those lives without fear. -
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wtagg7 months, 2 weeks ago
My opinion is that exclusivity needs to go. To brand yourself as something prompts inequality and segregation. We need to start considering ourselves as purely Americans. To say that you are straight or gay, black, brown, green, white, pink, etc... does not bring us together, it separates us.
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Unfortunately, you bring up an important point with your question. When is enough, enough? I believe that there is power in furthering a belief or cause to the point where the power is more important than the actual purpose. Sort of like all those newly elected congress representatives that pledged themselves to term limits in 95. Sounded great and it looked like good idea that fell into line with the whole contract with America thing. I wonder how many actually followed through with the term limit promise. My representative did not, Steve Latourette.
My point is what starts out as a belief or a cause becomes a vocation or career. The focus goes from doing what's right to doing what keeps you employed and important.
I think this prompts the need for another cause once the present is reached.
What are they going to do once they get married and are hit with the marriage income tax rate? Not as bad as it used to be, but it is still unequal. Look at that, another inequality. Maybe they can help us fight that one.
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frctm57 months, 2 weeks ago
At the root of this issue is fear and insecurity and a dysfunctional culture. Some men have spent a life time building up a persona of masculinity and fear acceptance of homosexuality undermines that image. When you have a lot invested in this image, its a full time job to keep, maintain, and defend. Among religious zealots, they can't face the reality that the morality of the bible is not equipped to handle the complex truth about human relationships, behavior, and psychology. In order to embrace the simplistic concepts of sin, and good and evil, as laid down in the bible, everything must be placed into two categories of right and wrong which find no true expression in the real world of human affairs. God's judgment is final and unequivocal so their views must place all issues between these two extremes.
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Poulenc7 months, 2 weeks ago
The notion that one can teach sexual attraction in a school or outside of it is plain idiotic.
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What boots means is that he or she doesn't want young people to be exposed to the different, to the Other: to those who aren't like me or we (as far as that we is known).
Through ignorance, fear, ill-education or obtuse morality, he or she has learned to identify gayness with wrong. But gayness, like straightness, is in itself morally neutral: it's as morally inconsequential as, say, the preference for vanilla ice cream over chocolate.
Gayness, like straightness (and aren't these really arbitrary bifurcations annoying?)has been with humanity since the year one, and before. A certain percentage of the population in every culture has and will always be gay.
Gayness is a harmless fact of human life/ a harmless human sexual variation; to be against it makes as much sense as being against left-handedness.
Religions with draconian sexual-category views are well and good for those who choose to practice them, I suppose; but those practitioners cannot and should not dictate the terms of human love for the whole population. -
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Poulenc7 months, 2 weeks ago
frctm5, may I please amend this part of your post, above, as it reveals an erroneous assumption:
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"At the root of this issue is fear and insecurity and a dysfunctional culture. Some men have spent a life time building up a persona of masculinity and fear acceptance of homosexuality undermines that image."
Gay men are just as "masculine"--or not--as straight men: they exhibit as much variation in conforming to stereotypical gender definitions as their non-gay brothers.
It would be more accurate to say that many straight men are heavily invesed in not apearing gay, as, traditionally, to be gay has "meant" forfeiting malness.
Defensiveness of this type is, I believe, at the very root of homophobia: to the degree that one has, usually unconsciously, judged oneself harshly for having gay feelings, one will try to make others wrong for having them. One will hate in others what one hates or fears in oneself.-
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frctm57 months, 2 weeks ago
If you read my statement carefully, I was not subscribing to a belief, just describing it. This does not reflect my opinion of whether gays are masculine or not. I am fully aware of the variations that exist within all groups but we all make generalizations to make points if you'll forgive that generalization. The culture promotes archetypes. In America, we have this cowboy image of maleness that runs as a continuous thread through the historical and cultural narrative. He is stubborn, plain spoken, and self assured. Empathy and sensitivity in general are regarded as only proper for females except in a few contexts. I would add to this stereo type that the cowboy is not intellectual but earthy and pragmatic. He is intuitive and gut driven and these instincts make him superior to all the pointy headed academics and touchy feely types. This is the persona that many believe Bush exemplifies and his source of charisma and enduring appeal to a certain mindset. There are plenty of variations on this theme as well, but I don't have the time or the desire to write a comprehensive thesis in this forum. I simply attempt to describe a powerful cultural force that exists and persist and is one contributing factor to the debate.
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prater56007 months, 2 weeks ago
Since this seems to be a gathering of gay marriage proponents, I'll hop in here to present the viewpoint of the other side.
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I don't really give a sh!t whether prop 8 passes of fails. But I was asked to vote on it and I voted for it. Not because of religion, but because of science, or rather the lack of it.
For decades, I have heard gay proponents insist that being gay is inherent. Yet I have never seen any evidence to support that assumption.
I remember about twenty years ago reading a Los Angeles Times article about a scientist who observed that a gland at the base of the brain appeared to be larger in men he knew to be gay. The scientist himself said that this should not be used to prove one way or another that homosexuality is inherent because his studies did not include women, and some of the men died of AIDS. The very next paragraph in the story quoted a member of GLAD, who said that this study proved what they had said all along, that there was a genetic predisposition to being gay.
I'm for intellectual honesty. If you want gay rights, fine. It won't affect me, so I don't care. But stop with the insistence that it's inherent. There is no scientific proof of this. The only proof I've seen on these boards is anecdotal. How is it that a group who is quick to criticize opponents as being anti-intellectual wants others to accept what is at this point a BELIEF that homosexuality is inherent?
And another thing. Insulting EVERYBODY that agrees with you, regardless of their reasoning, only shows that there is intolerance on both sides of the aisle. Not only that, it's a damn stupid way to convince people to come to your way of thinking.-
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frctm57 months, 2 weeks ago
If I interpret your argument correctly, as long as gayness is genetic and not a choice, you would support it, but because it is a decision, and therefore errant behavior, you won't lend your support? The odd thing here is that if homosexuality is not genetically predisposed, than by the same argument neither is heterosexuality. If is is a matter of choice, then why doesn't choice factor in both directions? Remember, statistics are only anecdotal. Many genetic factors are merely predispositions. If you have a gene that means you are susceptible to alcoholism, this doesn't mean you will become an alcoholic. I am sure that you are straight but do you think you could just decide one day to be attracted to your own sex? Is sexual desire a product of intellect? A rational decision? If not, what is the mechanism at work here? If, as the religious people suggests, and this is telling in its own right, homosexuality is a moral failing, and a choice, it would imply that such urges are natural and the sin was giving into it. I find this a bit amusing because it shows a lack of self examination on the part of the people promoting such ideas. They want us to condemn a form of behavior in others that they say is a moral failing and a choice, but they could only claim superior status by admitting the same temptation in their own lives but not giving in to it. If that is not their argument, you might as well take credit for having green eyes as well. I doubt many would admit to having such urges.
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sinophil497 months, 1 week ago
prater - There is, indeed, a fairly large body of scientific data that compellingly shows, but not absolutely prove, that gayness is both genetically and biologically inborn.
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There are several centers or nuclei in the brain that are different in gay vs straight people. These centers were measured by researchers who were blinded to the sexual orientation of the subjects. The measured differences were very consistent statistically. One site I read said that homosexuals simply don't have the brains to be attracted to women.
The incidence of gayness is about 3-5% in the general population. That is the same incidence found in siblings of gay individuals. Among fraternal twins, the incidence of gayness in the twin if the other was gay is 22%. Among identical twins, the incidence of concordant gayness is 50%.
There is evidence that sexual behavior in gay males is determined by a testosterone surge produced by the fetal testicles in one week of fetal development. If the testosterone surge is too low or too late, then the incidence of gayness increases significantly.
There is a gene marker (called XQ28) on the X chromosome that is different in straight vs gay men. That is probably the reason why there is a tendency for male gayness to run in the maternal side of the family. The mother donates the X chromosome; the father donates the Y chromosome.
The establishment of sexual orientation, both straight and gay, is multifactorial - genetic, biologic, and probably social to some degree. That is why the incidence of gayness in identical twins is 50%, but not 100%.
All medical and social work practitioners recognize that the attraction to alcohol and drugs is largely determined by genetic factors. That is why the struggle to remain alcohol and drug free is a life-long battle. Addicts can not be un-attracted to substances. They can only struggle to refrain from using it.
By the same token, gay people can not be un-attracted to the opposite sex. They can not be "re-educated" to become straight. If you want them to not be gay, the only option is for them to refrain from gay behavior. But the gay attraction is forever there.
It is like asking a straight male to be not attracted to a beautiful, sexy woman. It is impossible.
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