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Posted by: prater5600 1 year, 1 month ago
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prater56001 year, 1 month ago
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Since this seems to be a gathering of gay marriage proponents, I'll hop in here to present the viewpoint of the other side.
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I don't really give a sh!t whether prop 8 passes of fails. But I was asked to vote on it and I voted for it. Not because of religion, but because of science, or rather the lack of it.
For decades, I have heard gay proponents insist that being gay is inherent. Yet I have never seen any evidence to support that assumption.
I remember about twenty years ago reading a Los Angeles Times article about a scientist who observed that a gland at the base of the brain appeared to be larger in men he knew to be gay. The scientist himself said that this should not be used to prove one way or another that homosexuality is inherent because his studies did not include women, and some of the men died of AIDS. The very next paragraph in the story quoted a member of GLAD, who said that this study proved what they had said all along, that there was a genetic predisposition to being gay.
I'm for intellectual honesty. If you want gay rights, fine. It won't affect me, so I don't care. But stop with the insistence that it's inherent. There is no scientific proof of this. The only proof I've seen on these boards is anecdotal. How is it that a group who is quick to criticize opponents as being anti-intellectual wants others to accept what is at this point a BELIEF that homosexuality is inherent?
And another thing. Insulting EVERYBODY that agrees with you, regardless of their reasoning, only shows that there is intolerance on both sides of the aisle. Not only that, it's a damn stupid way to convince people to come to your way of thinking.-
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frctm51 year, 1 month ago
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If I interpret your argument correctly, as long as gayness is genetic and not a choice, you would support it, but because it is a decision, and therefore errant behavior, you won't lend your support? The odd thing here is that if homosexuality is not genetically predisposed, than by the same argument neither is heterosexuality. If is is a matter of choice, then why doesn't choice factor in both directions? Remember, statistics are only anecdotal. Many genetic factors are merely predispositions. If you have a gene that means you are susceptible to alcoholism, this doesn't mean you will become an alcoholic. I am sure that you are straight but do you think you could just decide one day to be attracted to your own sex? Is sexual desire a product of intellect? A rational decision? If not, what is the mechanism at work here? If, as the religious people suggests, and this is telling in its own right, homosexuality is a moral failing, and a choice, it would imply that such urges are natural and the sin was giving into it. I find this a bit amusing because it shows a lack of self examination on the part of the people promoting such ideas. They want us to condemn a form of behavior in others that they say is a moral failing and a choice, but they could only claim superior status by admitting the same temptation in their own lives but not giving in to it. If that is not their argument, you might as well take credit for having green eyes as well. I doubt many would admit to having such urges.
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prater56001 year, 1 month ago
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First off, thanks for responding with intellect rather than insults to my intelligence. If more people were like yourself, I'm pretty sure that prop 8 would have been defeated.
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My point was to illustrate that gay rights proponents have said over and over again that they are born that way without any scientific proof. That makes it a belief in my book. I just find it ironic that an ideology that so readily embraces science would resort to anecdotal evidence to justify anything, let alone homosexuality.
I've been discussing this for years with gay proponents. Almost every time I have brought up that gay proponents insist that they are born that way without scientific evidence, I am called a homophobe, bigot, small minded, etc. What I don't like is the blanket dismissal of every opposing viewpoint. Do you really believe it's irrational to ask whether or not homosexuality is genetic? Especially when proponents have said it for years without having any evidence to support their claims?
Let me make it clear: I don't have a religious objection to gay marriage. If prop 8 was defeated, I would have just said oh well. I'm just trying to give you all insight as to what the other side thinks. I know there are lots of people who object strictly for religious reasons, but there are plenty like myself who are tired of being called intellectual cretins because we dared to have a politically incorrect viewpoint.
I know you've heard people making claims for years that people are born homosexual. Why can't I ask them for proof of that?
I wish I could respond more on the religious aspect, but that's not why I voted the way I did.-
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frctm51 year, 1 month ago
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Do you hold straightness to the same standards of scientific rigor? If a straight person tells you that they always knew they were straight, would you question that assertion pending genetic proof?
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I am basically an atheist or agnostic depending on which day of the week you ask me, but at the same time, I have not made science my god. Even though I value the objective pursuit of the truth and the intellect and all the products it has created and the understanding that it provides, I also know that it is no replacement for emotion, feeling, compassion, and empathy and the spontaneous warmth of life that makes it rich and full. I don't need to know the scientific reason why puppies are cute to know that puppies are cute. I just go with it. Life must be a proper blending of prudence and passion. It is easy for us to be detached from an issue where we have no emotional investment in it but imagine that your straightness were regarded as dirty, shameful, or inferior by many of your peers. What if your sexual preference were central to your feelings of self worth, self esteem, and ability to enjoy life in the same manner that many of us can take for granted. It is far easier in this case to regard this issue as simply an intellectual exercise when you have so little at stake in the outcome. Science has not evolved to the point where it can answer many of our moral questions but we humans have known for centuries the value of moral ideas long before science as a discipline could shed light on human behavior or biology. Science can have a place as a component in the debate but it can't be the sole arbiter.
I appreciate your willingness to keep debate on a civil level as well. I prefer to debate ideas than resort to insult. Generally, when the argument turns nasty, I just walk away as I don't see any point to it when this happens.
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hamy1 year, 1 month ago
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I responded to you saying that you don't care one way or the other, but voted for the proposition which takes away the marriage rights of LGBT people. Even though you yourself said that it doesn't affect you or harm you, you still decided to take those rights away from a group of people.
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The rest of what you said didn't matter. There is no proof that heterosexuality is inherent as well but you believe that don't you? Did you ask your doctor for proof that you are born straight? Americans are born with rights. For you to say, "if you prove to me that you are not just choosing to be gay I will give you rights" is disgusting. Did you ask for black people to prove that they weren't just painting their faces before they were granted full citizenship? I'm just asking.
And FLIPPANT isn't an insult. It merely describes the manner in which you decided to take rights away from a group of American citizens.
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sinophil491 year, 1 month ago
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prater - There is, indeed, a fairly large body of scientific data that compellingly shows, but not absolutely prove, that gayness is both genetically and biologically inborn.
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There are several centers or nuclei in the brain that are different in gay vs straight people. These centers were measured by researchers who were blinded to the sexual orientation of the subjects. The measured differences were very consistent statistically. One site I read said that homosexuals simply don't have the brains to be attracted to women.
The incidence of gayness is about 3-5% in the general population. That is the same incidence found in siblings of gay individuals. Among fraternal twins, the incidence of gayness in the twin if the other was gay is 22%. Among identical twins, the incidence of concordant gayness is 50%.
There is evidence that sexual behavior in gay males is determined by a testosterone surge produced by the fetal testicles in one week of fetal development. If the testosterone surge is too low or too late, then the incidence of gayness increases significantly.
There is a gene marker (called XQ28) on the X chromosome that is different in straight vs gay men. That is probably the reason why there is a tendency for male gayness to run in the maternal side of the family. The mother donates the X chromosome; the father donates the Y chromosome.
The establishment of sexual orientation, both straight and gay, is multifactorial - genetic, biologic, and probably social to some degree. That is why the incidence of gayness in identical twins is 50%, but not 100%.
All medical and social work practitioners recognize that the attraction to alcohol and drugs is largely determined by genetic factors. That is why the struggle to remain alcohol and drug free is a life-long battle. Addicts can not be un-attracted to substances. They can only struggle to refrain from using it.
By the same token, gay people can not be un-attracted to the opposite sex. They can not be "re-educated" to become straight. If you want them to not be gay, the only option is for them to refrain from gay behavior. But the gay attraction is forever there.
It is like asking a straight male to be not attracted to a beautiful, sexy woman. It is impossible.
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