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Posted by: Radiofreeeuropa 1 year, 1 month ago
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Radiofreeeuropa1 year, 1 month ago
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So if unions are the culprits (they are not), how does one explain this Mr. Romney?
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http://www.aflcio.org/issues/jobseconomy/ceopay.cf...
The UAW cut the new hire payscale to 1/2 of what it was.
But bloated management salaries are staggering. And even as they came in their private jets (burning 20,000 dollars of fuel) to beg for a handout, the CEOs refused to accept responsibility for their industry ills and refused to take pay cuts themselves. After decades of collecting over 20 million dollar salaries plus untold perks and options while steering the companies into losing millions and hundreds of millions quarter after quarter I for one have no sympathy for them.
We can not however rely on foreign car companies entirely, the U.S. must have an industrial base or truly it will go the way of the dodo. U.S. companies all must abandon the idea that their management is worth preposterous sums. They aren't. The arguement has been if we don't pay the top talent whatever they desire, they will go to some other country.
Right...
European management is generally paid much lower, though of course still quite lucrative on the pay scale. this chart breaks down how the pay is allocated...as in Salary, Bonuses and LTIs. The number on the left is the market capitalization of the companies (in billions).
Japans top execs make about a third of their U.S. counterparts.
Workers (as well as execs) in Japan's companies like Toyota are given bonuses and stocks on top of their pay if the company does well.
Here in the US the CEO of Ford is paid 24 million dollars even though year after year he loses millions for the company.
Like the republican culture of corruption in DC, it's time for a change. These people have aptly demonstrated they are not worth the money they are paid, if competent at all. Every Bailout beggar that comes to DC for a handout should have their management fired as a matter of course.-
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Endoscopy1 year, 1 month ago
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Radiofreeeuropa1 year, 1 month ago
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Well carpenters are charging $50 an hour here in NJ. (Non union ones).
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As Henry Ford understood it if the middle class has money they buy goods and the economy flourishes. All successful business models are a partnership between owners-managers-labor. If labor is treated fairly they tend to care about the quality of their work. Look at tvs manufactured in China, a friend who owns an electronics store told me only one in 3 doesn't have to be returned. That's pathetic.
How about the cost of shipping these things?
No there is nothing wrong with businesses treating their workers with dignity, nothing at all. Healthcare, pensions used to be the norm. People were loyal to their employers if their employers were loyal to them. it's a 2 way street. If the middle class has money, they don't hoard it or hide it to avoid taxes, they spend it. They make the wheels of the economy turn. The more prosperous the middle class, the better the economy.
Everyone wins. including owners and management.
As opposed to the failed ridiculous "trickle down" nonsense.
Where the very few profit tremendously and everyone else declines.-
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awongscreen1 year, 1 month ago
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Treating employees fairly is not part of capitalism Republican (or even Democrate) government want. Higher employee wages means lower profits. Capitalism do not need middle class. Unchallenged authority in making money is the ideal world. The rest of the people living in poverty should not be on the agenda.
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DarkWizard1 year, 1 month ago
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Endoscopy,
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I agree. We should, "ignore the fact that the workers are getting an average $28 per hour, great medical benefits, and long term pay if laid off," and concentrate on the real issues of this problem. Thank you for agreeing and not getting sidetracked.-
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slate1 year, 1 month ago
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Why does everything I post **** you off? I was just pointing out that the cost was even higher than what was said. Look many people in this country doesn't make 20 and hr much less 28, much less than enough to make 150+ a year, which many make. TImes 2-3 million, yeah now you're talking real money.
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So you're saying that labor has only cost the Big 3 10%? Then where is the rest going? The corps aren't all billionaires are they?
Hmmmmmmm could it be that much of the 'profit' does go to paying labor? Retirement packages and that sort of thing?
God Bless em, I was in a union at one time and know how easy it was to think the company owed us everything, which seems to be the mindset. Let the corps die we won't give an inch or give up anything kind of mentality. That what I saw when I was a member. Don't you think that everyone needs to cut back to save an industry and their jobs?-
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earthlingerer1 year, 1 month ago
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Well, I guess it really sucks to you guys that think that getting an honest days pay isn't worth it to you, whether it's sweeping up hazardous waste, or simply working hard...
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It's certainly an american wonder to IMAGINE that bagboys, waitresses, mail carriers, and janitors don't deserve a living equal to "high and mighties" like CEOs, and others.
WELCOME TO THE 21st CENTURY, IDIOTS!!!
When the "lowlies" see your gold-plated toiletries, don't be a bit F'in surprised that "joe the plumber" or "Flo the waitress" is screaming "kiss my grits".-
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HomerJS49Comment removed: Abusive
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ADAGUY1 year, 1 month ago
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Who's ****** off? I'm just pointing out the error in your post. It only takes around 14 man hours to make a Jeep in the most efficient plant. It takes less than 40 man hours to make a car in one of the least efficient plants. No matter what the labor price per hour is, $28.00 or $78.00 this is chicken feed when compared to the overall cost of the automobile.
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sumptuousdigs1 year, 1 month ago
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Slate, thanks for your post. Sweepers are out sourced. You were correct, before the last contract.
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We made the concession. They start at $14 an hour. I have 2 team members that returned to my team from "labor maintenance, their jobs included cleaning tanks, sludge pits, sewer lines, setting traps and removing dead carcasses. They have HAZMAT training, confined space training, biohazard and fire surpression training, etc.
The new people are dropping like flies. They tell me, (before they quit), that the work is too difficult for the pay. I never considered LM a good option for me. Most went into it for the OT, regardless of the hard work.
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ADAGUY1 year, 1 month ago
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ENDO, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt in this case, and pretend that you are absolutely correct. The problem is the high cost of labor! Right?
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The least efficient plant in the US this year was a Ford plant and it took them around 38 hours to assemble an automobile complete from bumper to bumper. Using your figures, that comes to a total labor cost of $1064.00 for each car. Even if you include all the benefits that come along with each employee, and figure the cost at $78.00 per hour it only comes to $2964.00 PLEASE tell me how in the hell this results in the cost of a $30,000+ car?
To make matters worse, the most efficient plant turned out cars at the rate of 14 man hours per car. A gastly total of $392.00 per car at your rate, or $1092.00 when benefits are included.
Do you realize how silly your argument is?
Last of all, are you aware that none of the automakers will hire you if you do not have a college degree?-
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pc251 year, 1 month ago
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you are forgetting all the legacy costs..........
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http://www.autoblog.com/2006/09/20/explaining-the-...
The legacy costs have their roots in the concept of "cradle-to-grave" care provided to industrial workers by their lifelong employers. Such a system utilized employer-funded pensions to provide retirement income and catastrophic injury coverage for employees, and also ensured workers that they would receive a high level of health care coverage upon retirement. This arrangement minimized the burden on government-funded social security programs and provided significant incentive for loyalty on behalf of the employee, but also depended on steady growth within the manufacturing sector - an assumption that, as we now see all too clearly, turned out to be wrong.
Follow the jump for a breakdown on what automakers could do to address the burden of legacy costs and what they actually are doing.
In addition to requiring a steady base of active employees, pension plans also depend on deft actuarial footwork, and frankly most plans have not adapted well to the increased longevity of retirees.-
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nostalgia1 year, 1 month ago
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Not just legacy costs
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Look at the ridiculous Jobs bank programs
This is an article from 2005:
Ken Pool is making good money. On weekdays, he shows up at 7 a.m. at Ford Motor Co.'s Michigan Truck Plant in Wayne, signs in, and then starts working -- on a crossword puzzle. Pool hates the monotony, but the pay is good: more than $31 an hour, plus benefits.
"We just go in and play crossword puzzles, watch videos that someone brings in or read the newspaper," he says. "Otherwise, I've just sat."
Pool is one of more than 12,000 American autoworkers who, instead of installing windshields or bending sheet metal, spend their days counting the hours in a jobs bank set up by Detroit automakers and Delphi Corp. as part of an extraordinary job security agreement with the United Auto Workers union.
http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0510/17/A...-
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pc251 year, 1 month ago
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here is one for you
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http://www.freep.com/article/20081120/BUSINESS01/3...
UAW may give up jobs bank to revive auto loans
The UAW is negotiating the possible elimination of its controversial jobs bank and is considering other concessions to help Detroit's automakers win low-cost loans from Congress, people familiar with negotiations said late Thursday.
Union officers from several locals said they did not know if the concession had been made but expected the jobs bank to be ended as part of a package of shared sacrifice when the automakers and UAW President Ron Gettelfinger return to Congress early next month. The jobs bank pays laid-off workers, sometimes for years.
after bleeding the auto companies dry for the past 20 years the the UAW management for the BIG 3 (Dewey, Cheatem and Howe) are going to agree to concessions. so much for union solidarity during tought economic times-
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sumptuousdigs1 year, 1 month ago
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pc25 and nostalgia, I feel your pain and concern.
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Years ago the UAW saw the corporate trend for off shore and American transplant facilities. The reaction in negotiations? It's gonna cost ya! The Corps bit hard on that one and let 'er roll...the rest is history in the making. You haven't been keeping up. I've never been in the bank. Fortunately I haven't qualified up to this point. By the time I might, it may be gone...and you'll be happy.
If more Americans stood their ground, perhaps, just perhaps there would be more good paying jobs and opportunities out there. One tactic in any negotiation is to seize a pinch point and apply pressure. The language of the current contract regarding the JOBS program is stated between pages 199-228. It includes restrictions, qualifications and outsourcing. The maximum duration for any jobs bank employee is 48 weeks.
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lfergie8121 year, 1 month ago
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nostalgia, while you and PC25 go about your hatchet job on the auto workers keep in mind that the articles and examples you mention are from 2005 and 2007 which was before the last contract. Union concessions have nearly eliminated those positions that were created to allow a person to remain employed if automation took their place and were only active if vehicle sales were steady. Since these articles, there has been a new contract that even allows the automotive industry to close plants that are no longer needed and eliminate those jobs you mentioned which were "bought out" and no longer exist. In other words, those jobs are no longer in the American automotive industry.
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The "cradle-to-grave" jobs were a product of the Japanese auto plants in Japan. American auto plants never had "cradle-to-grave" jobs as per se.-
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nostalgia1 year, 1 month ago
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"nostalgia, while you and PC25 go about your hatchet job on the auto workers keep in mind that the articles and examples you mention are from 2005 and 2007 which was before the last contract"
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You need to read about what the Democrats are planning then talk to us about "hatchet jobs"
The very people you voted for are planning this
As far as the concessions in the last labor contract - they don't take effect until 2010
By then, those concessions are going to look like peanuts compared to what the Democrats are going to do with their "prepackaged bankruptcy"
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ADAGUY1 year, 1 month ago
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"you are forgetting all the legacy costs."
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No, I didn't forget legacy costs. The higher figure of $78.00 includes your "legacy costs". These are the figures toute4d by the republican party when they cry out at the total cost of building a car.-
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pc251 year, 1 month ago
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http://philhardwickblog.wordpress.com/2008/11/12/d...
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Detroit auto workers’ compensation compared to the rest of us.
Detroit’s costs are far too high for their market share. While GM has spent billions of dollars on labor buyouts in recent years, it is still forced by federal mileage standards to churn out small cars that make little or no profit at plants organized by the United Auto Workers.
Rest assured that the politicians don’t want to do a thing about those labor contracts or mileage standards. In their letter, Ms. Pelosi and Mr. Reid recommend such “taxpayer protections” as “limits on executive compensation and equity stakes” that would dilute shareholders. But they never mention the UAW contracts that have done so much to put Detroit on the road to ruin (see chart above). In fact, the main point of any taxpayer rescue seems to be to postpone a day of reckoning on those contracts. That includes even the notorious UAW Jobs Bank that continues to pay workers not to work.-
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ADAGUY1 year, 1 month ago
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The chart you refer to shows the very costs I am talking about, only it claims the cost is $73.00 per hour.
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This is still far from enough cost to wreck the auto industry. After all, if it takes only 40 man hours in the least efficient plant in the US for the production of one car, then the labor cost of that car is around 3000.00. So why does this car cost 30K to the consumer?-
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sumptuousdigs1 year, 1 month ago
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Ifergie812, not this time. Line level management is taking a beating.
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My group leader is shuffled from area to area and taking on more turf every day. No longer my GL, his replacement came out of the office for a week, and then quit.
I cover many of their former responsibilities, actually all but two, payroll, and hiring and firing. I was offered that job in '93, and ungraciously (as is my style) turned it down. I told them it was a sh!t sandwich, and there wasn't enough bread to cover the taste of the sh!t.
That said, I also kept my union protection that the GL job would have lost. The poor bastards are pulling their hair out and running around like they are on fire. The bottom line is, the stock holders have no concern for anyones benefit. We are ALL necessary evils to them. To be exterminated at the first opportunity.
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sumptuousdigs1 year, 1 month ago
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Endoscopy...You can ignore the facts, be ignorant of the facts, or be cognizant of the facts and make ignorant choices. One fact is, people without jobs don't buy cars, washing machines, airline tickets, etc. Nor do they employ plumbers, mechanics, dentists, or endoscopy technicians.
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The big3 have been admonished about that since the '60s. (actually since the automation revolution in the late '40s). What does being aware of another's good (yet shrinking) pay, or diminishing benefits, do for you, except (that it appears to) make you resentful?
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lfergie8121 year, 1 month ago
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The problem is with the financial wealth of those CEOs. It would not hurt them if the auto industry failed because they are set for live as it is because they have already made more money than 80% of the people will make in their life time.
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