Comments for Ban on cluster bomb production due to pass into international humanitarian law, despite absence of US, Russia signatures »
Posted By gamahuche 11 months, 3 weeks ago in Health & FitnessGovernments from around the world today began signing an international convention banning the production of cluster bombs – unexploded canisters that have killed and maimed thousands of civilians and remain scattered dozen of countries.
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gamahuche11 months, 3 weeks ago
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Isn't it interesting how these initiatives are always ignored by the so-called "Great Powers"?
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The effects of napalm were bad enough but these lethal "clusters" are the "gift that keeps on giving", indiscriminately slaughtering and maiming innocent civilian populations indefinitely.
Wouldn't it be nice if this ban also mandated that all the perpetrators should be held responsible for removing every last single-one of their lethal toys - with a punitive fine for each day that the task is left undone?
Something like a parking ticket..-
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hyperbola11 months, 3 weeks ago
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In this case "great powers" means china, russia, israel and the US. Nice company for us to be in as we preach to the world about liberty, democracy and equal rights for all.
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Today I was reading a Spanish newspaper and was heartened to see a picture of the Minister of Defense (a woman) visiting the factory where the first of the Spanish cluster bombs were being dismatled and destroyed. -
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memestryker11 months, 3 weeks ago
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The "great powers" realize that psychopaths aren't going anywhere and there may be times when this appears to be the only way to stop a particularly nasty one (or group). We don't yet have the mental health knowledge to allow us to prevent psychopathy. And we know the psychopaths will keep secretly developing this or worse.
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Although emotionally I want to believe that feel good agreements like this will work, as someone who has studied psychology, I just don't think it's rational to think such agreements are anything more than joining hands and singing kumbayah--all the while the psychopaths are laughing to themselves.
Notice that whenever a group of people disarm themselves in any way, they eventually come to regret it and rely on those who did not disarm to come to their aid.-
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gamahuche11 months, 3 weeks ago
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I've never heard kumbayah in Norwegian - could be quite interesting I should imagine..
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Aside from that I'm missing your point entirely..
Psychopathology, I would suggest, looks very much like dropping lethal bomblets in neighbourhoods where kids will pick them up and blow themselves up.
The countries who have been using these - or want to reserve the right to use them - don't happen to include any of the countries that are being targeted in the so-called "war-on-terror".
Who ARE the laughing psychopaths du jour in your cosmology?-
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alakazam11 months, 3 weeks ago
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Suppose a Horde arose somewhere and began to sweep the Earth.
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Say a Man worse than Attila himself were sitting at it's Head.
Would you want them stopped?
I have said it before and will always contend that fighting for the preservation of life is worthy.
I have to agree with you completely that the irresponsible use of weapons has caused much suffering in the world.
How do we fix some of this without intervention?-
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gamahuche11 months, 3 weeks ago
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Past my bedtime - I hope I don't have to deal with Attila in my dreams!
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Genghis Khan is more my cup of tea.
In Mongolia a few years ago the govt. asked everybody to choose a second name - most of them only had one and it was too confusing.
Unfortunately c. 90% of them chose a name that connected with GK - the problem remained - even more confusing. -
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Candida11 months, 3 weeks ago
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memestryker: "The "great powers" realize that psychopaths aren't going anywhere and there may be times when this appears to be the only way to stop a particularly nasty one (or group)."
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So how exactly are you planning to use these bombs against psychopaths?
FTA: "Handicap International, says 98% of cluster-bomb victims are civilians and 27% are children."
Do you mean that you just hope that the psychopaths are among the victims? Or that the killed children won't grow up to become psychopaths?
Last year, as I was travelling in Europe, we had to take a detour in Budapest because a street was closed. We stopped and my friend asked the policeman what was going on. They had just found an unexploded WWII bomb in in one of the buildings. It wasn't a cluster-bomb, just an ordinary one, but these are, indeed, gifts that keep on giving. -
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ETproductions11 months, 3 weeks ago
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Got to agree with you memestryker. As much as I deplore such mayhem, the great powers forswearing it would not make it go away. That would just rob us of a defense against rouge states that decided to ignore the ban.
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One of the horrors of modern warfare is that we can't unrign the bell. Unilaterally destroying one country's capability doesn't evaporate that military technology from the knowledge base. It's rather like gun laws. In a world with hundreds of millions of available weapons, passing a law against owning one only ensures that the criminal element will have them, but decent people won't/-
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gamahuche11 months, 3 weeks ago
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I seldom disagree with you ET but the whole point of this exercise is to create a treaty that everybody will sign on to.
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Cluster bombs are marginal weapons in the exercise of power but major ones in the aspect of terrorising and devastating the mist vulnerable members of society who are far removed from the seats of power of those nations.
Apart from making vast swathes of our precious planet unusable they guarantee a fresh flow of individual enmity and hatred against whichever country has been responsible for dropping these murderous devices.
You only have to think of the ONE picture of the young Vietnamese girl running down the road after being struck by napalm to realise what a no-brainer it is in the hearts-and-minds area of politics to employ devices which will guarantee the on-going deaths of civilians for generations. -
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dissent11 months, 3 weeks ago
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"That would just rob us of a defense against rouge states that decided to ignore the ban."
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this "defense" against "rogue" states blows up kids who think they're toys.
.... yeah, great "defense" :|
your argument "rings the same bell" as the pro-torture crowd. it seems there's no end to just how far pandora's box can be opened and then for us to say "oh well, it was open anyway"
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memestryker11 months, 3 weeks ago
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The U.K. and Congo, for starters. The U.S. actually issued guns to the U.K. at one point because they had disarmed themselves.
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Many women were so viciously raped in African countries (that had disarmed at the suggestion of the U.N.) that they even require plastic bags to urinate and defacate since the attacks. Up to 90% of women in some villages have been brutally raped because the villagers have no means of defense since they were disarmed. The U.N. actually declared rape an act of war as a result so perpetrators could be charged with war crimes.
The media has reported that the elderly are sitting ducks for home invaders in the U.K. and Australia now that the bad guys know they won't be armed.
Try sitting on hold on a 911 call in the U.S.--some people choose to be disarmed even when they don't have to be, to their demise. -
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Candida11 months, 3 weeks ago
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gamahuche: "Isn't it interesting how these initiatives are always ignored by the so-called "Great Powers"?"
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These were my first thoughts as well. Although I applaud the nations who are signing this agreement, it's always the same story: those who don't use them sign the agreement and those who do don't. As soon as the story started on the evening news where I first heard about it, I commented: "I bet the US won't sign." Why should they? After all, they couldn't sign the land-mine treaty either. How could they when they "need" those mines? -
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Endoscopy11 months, 3 weeks ago
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ROTFLMAO
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In England once in a while they still discover unexpleded bombs from WW2. There as been a technique to have the bomb deactivate itself after a period of time. But any safety device can be overcome with stupidity. I think that only the US currently makes them that way. -
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gamahuche11 months, 3 weeks ago
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Now that I've got my splenetic point of view in play lets look at the glass half-full too - actually already 100 out of 192 member states have signed on - and a toast to Norway, where they have the lemmings rushing off the cliff as a regular reminder of the insanity of nature, including the human variety.
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FTA:
At the Oslo signing ceremony, Norway, which has led the efforts to ban cluster munitions, was the first country to sign. It was followed by Laos, where cluster bombs dropped by US planes more than 30 years ago are still killing civilians; and Lebanon, which was attacked with the weapons by Israel.
By the end of tomorrow, around 100 of the United Nations' 192 members will have signed up. Once 30 countries have ratified the convention, it will become part of international humanitarian law.
There are a number of notable absentees, including the US, China, Russia, India and Pakistan, as well as Israel, which fired cluster bombs during the 2006 Lebanon war.-
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memestryker11 months, 3 weeks ago
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Lawfulness is based on agreement, and unless there is 100% agreement, it doesn't work completely (notice it never works completely anywhere). And psychopaths exist everywhere on earth, in all culture and nations, and always have. Unless we figure out a way to turn people into compliant zombies, it may always exist.
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We know that many learned behaviors (or lack of learning something to modify what's already there) occur between the ages of 2 and 5, so unless we figure out how to reach humans early and do it completely, this is going to be with us a very long time.-
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alakazam11 months, 3 weeks ago
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"Lawfulness is based on agreement, and unless there is 100% agreement, it doesn't work completely ".
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I believe there are Absolute points within the Moral Compass.
I think there is a Spirit and Intent within the General Accords between Nations that can be used to good purpose. I think we all have a moral compass. People need to get involved.
I think there are many places on Earth where the World watches horror and does nothing to help. No help from East or West.
Why? -
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Candida11 months, 3 weeks ago
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memestryker: "psychopaths exist everywhere on earth, in all culture and nations, and always have. Unless we figure out a way to turn people into compliant zombies, it may always exist."
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In my view, psychopaths are, indeed a danger, but now nearly as big a danger as compliant zombies are.
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Radiofreeeuropa11 months, 3 weeks ago
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International Laws are as powerful as we allow them to be. I mean to say, one could argue that murder is illegal, yet murders are still committed, so laws against murder mean nothing as well. Yet would anyone argue these laws are valueless?
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Cluster bombs are frankly used to "murder" civilians, with 97% percent of their casualties innocent civilians.
This is simply unconscionable. There is no excuse.
And Gamahuche has extrapolated the the equation to it's logical antipodes perfectly!-
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gamahuche11 months, 3 weeks ago
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"And Gamahuche has extrapolated the the equation to it's logical antipodes perfectly!"
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Why thank you, young man, but perfectly will be when these particularly grotesque toys are locked in a vault and the key to it has been dropped on the deepest ocean.
And of course all the areas that are currently contaminated have been cleansed to perfection - with a peace garden in bloom on each of them.
Too much to ask for? Not IMO!!
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Endoscopy11 months, 3 weeks ago
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Too bad that Israel is surrounded by people who think the only good Jew is a dead one. People like you seem to take that side. No attacking the Gaza area that sends milliles into Israel. Why not? That means sending in live war haeads to kill and maim anybody living where they come down much less later.
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dissent11 months, 3 weeks ago
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"Why not?"
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dionys' point is obvious. cluster bombs kill kids.... even if they are palestinian kids.
looks like you're okay with dead palestinian kids while you play the "victim" crap about dead jews again
israel can more than look after itself. it's a nuclear armed first world economy, it's one of the most militant populations in the world, it's further armed and trained by us, the richest most powerful empire in history, and it is by far the largest recipient and benefactor of our "foreign aid" receiving the biggest fattest check of all.
the palestinians are some of the poorest most defenseless people in the world supported by who? funded by who? protected by who? defended by who? people we have designated as...... "terrorists"
it's david and goliath all over again only this time david, the rock thrower, is not a jew, goliath is
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Candida11 months, 3 weeks ago
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Newperson: "I'm so grateful to live in a country where we can walk around the country side with out land mines war heads and so on. God bless the ones that cant."
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I'm not sure I understand your comment. Are you saying that you are grateful that you live in a country that buries and scatters these awful weapons and not in a country where they are buried and scattered? Or do you simply feel sorry for those in whose county your government and its allies scatter these weapons? -
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alakazam11 months, 3 weeks ago
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I am glad to hear that entire nations are speaking out against the use of "Total War" weaponry.
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I hope it will make a difference.
I shudder to think of the things hidden away in the armories of the World. I don't like it...in my heart I believe that if someone will use any dread weapon they are just one step away from using the next in the pile.
Peaceful solutions need to be found before it goes even further than it has. I think how wonderful it would be if one day we could beat all our swords into plowshares. I am maybe too much of a realist to think that day will ever come for everyone,but I know that waging war upon the innocent is wrong.
I hope the signatory countries will apply serious pressure over the issue.-
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alakazam11 months, 3 weeks ago
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Years ago I read a goofy but entertaining novel..."Mission Earth".
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There was a part in the story where a bunch of women got together and raised hell until the U.N granted them the right "not to be beaten or thermonuclear bombed".
I think that's a great idea!!!!
Good people who really care are gonna have to start speaking up for what's right
I think the great majority of us know right from wrong. We need to restore some decency to the world.-
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memestryker11 months, 3 weeks ago
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I assume you're talking about the U.S. So when was our government ever able to tell right from wrong? The native tribes who warred with one another here before the arrival of Europeans? The Europeans, who killed off those already occupying the land? Those who purchased and owned slaves? Those who limited the participation of blacks and women in society? When was that time that our government could tell right from wrong?
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Spadecaller11 months, 3 weeks ago
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Thanks g. Sorry, I am late to respond. Cluster bombs are the weapons of choice for terrorists. Being that terrorism is "the unlawful use of force or violence against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a government, the civilian population, or any segment thereof, in furtherance of political or social objectives," it goes against international law to intentionally target civilians. And, by the very nature of these weapons and their proven "effectiveness" the government already knows that they will kill civilians when they are employed. In actuality, according to international law, they are illegal.
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Like RFE, I suspect the sale and use of these weapons is quite lucrative for those selling and manufacturing them. Hopefully, the day will come when the whistle is blown and the pictures of its victims are exposed on these forums so the entire world can condemn there use once and for all.-
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gamahuche11 months, 3 weeks ago
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SC - greatly appreciated..
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Perhaps on the contrary I should explain that my absence on a couple of your recent posts has been based on a feeling of frustration and powerlessness that has been virtual head-banging-against the wall.
The night of the Mumbai attacks, for example, I was awake all night with the BBC World Service and the Rabbi story was already featured there strongly. I couldn't bring myself to revisit it publicly when you posted it because I was unwilling to contemplate any potential disrespect of this story.
It is NOT about keeping quiet as they take away your neighbour!
I've taken on the Metropolitan Police of London and bamboozled them to the point where they were playing us "secret" recordings of meetings held in our home over the phone..
Sufficient was to know the password and the numbers on the secret exchange.
Of course they raided us shortly afterwards but failed to find the "smoking gun" - disguised as a typewriter which was laying in plain view..
P.S. I'm unworried about this disclosure because these events occurred in 1962-
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Spadecaller11 months, 3 weeks ago
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I understand g. I never once thought that your absence from the story was for anything but a good reason. There are many times when I reach that point when I cannot stomach reading the kind of disrespect that was displayed by some for that story about the Rabbi and his wife.
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WE have to pick our battles and replenish our spirits to confront these issues and the bigots who hide their hatred under vogue political rhetoric and anti-Zionism.
By the way, I found it amazing when someone cited Tim Wise who incorrectly insists that Martin Luther King never said, "When people criticize Zionists, they mean Jews. You're talking Anti-Semitism." There are a bunch of people trying to rewrite history to suit there own agendas.
How funny is this:
I was there when MLK said it; in fact, I heard him speak those exact words when he was addressing our school that consisted of a relatively large minority of Jewish and black students. This was the first time that I met King; it was in 1964 at South Side JR HS in Rockville Centre, New York.
Sorry for digressing, but I thought you might enjoy that tidbit.-
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gamahuche11 months, 3 weeks ago
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"Sorry for digressing, but I thought you might enjoy that tidbit.!
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Certainly did!
And I'd be the last person to accuse anyone of digressing! :)
You may have noticed that I managed to bring Genghis Khan into this thread - as just one of several pieces of lateral thinking..-
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CHAM11 months, 3 weeks ago
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Thanks for this very important post Gama. The last sentence of the post really got my attention. It stated that any weapon of less than 10 bomblets was excluded from the U N Resolution.
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The World's most common system utilizing bomblets has nine bomblets in the warhead stack. Coincidence? -
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Daylight11 months, 3 weeks ago
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And used liberally against international law by Israel.
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It's very sad.
Israel, America and other Western nations have all the right in their own head to use them or drop them wherever they feel fit. Israel has dropped millions of cluster bombs in Lebanon and will continue to do so in the future with the support of the United States of America. -
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cowboygrandpa11 months, 3 weeks ago
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Gama:
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Sorry I got here so late I've been working a lot of overtime lately. Got to work it while it is there.
Although I hate these types of bombs, I think a ban on them would only end up in the same situation as the Japanese and Germany prior to WWII. They just ignored the treaties and prepared for all out war.
I say keep the stockpile we have as protection against other nations using them and gaining a virtual impassable mine field of non exploded body bag fillers.
I am not naive enough to believe that just because someone signs a treaty they will honor it. It is usually one who is pushing hard for it that is in some way going to take advantage one way or another.
I remember watching footage of the Hamburg and Dressden raids when the incendiaries were dropped and roasted the populace and destroyed the cities.
We did the same thing to Japan. If we get rid of one thing there is another.
I think man must realize that war is not profitable in order to ever obtain a lasting and true peace. Until then we better be armed and ready to defend ourselves.
Don't forget that for every peace loving person out there, there is at least one if not two who want to desroy something someone else has.-
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gamahuche11 months, 3 weeks ago
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I respect your opinion cbgp but in my lifetime I have seen numerous miracles of reconciliation which were deemed impossible.
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Starting with the re-integration of Germany and Japan in the post-war world order.
Some are tougher..
I'm still waiting for China to surender its obtuse attitude to Tibet - but I NEVER give up belief in the potential triumph of the human spirit - I owe my very existence to it, born in Nazi-occupied Czechoslovakia of a Jewish father and a mother who, as an employee of the British Council was effectively a British spy.
We were nevertheless protected, all of us.
The blessings which emerge from these trials are the sense of the preciousness of every life and a marvellous faith in serendipity.
In world affairs I've learnt to never say never and to be personally unafraid in virtually any situation - which does not mean tempting fate by foolhardiness but it does mean factoring risks and playing the odds.
For a number of years I was also a professional gambler on horses, in England; unfortunately the rules of the game changed that it became impossible to beat the book. Then I became a bookie :)-
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cowboygrandpa11 months, 3 weeks ago
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gama:
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I really enjoy your outlook on life.
It is pleasant to see a positive attitude in such bleak circumstances.
I guess I'm more of a, I know it is coming, kind of guy. Not that I want it to come, just that I know it will come.
Yes I understand playing the odds and seeing the chances of success, but from personal experience I have also witnessed the sharpened hatred of man toward man.
That has taught to always back my bets with enough wisdom to make losing almost painless. In that I will hedge my bets with a counter bet that if needed will ease the burden of loss.
I'm sure you understand what I'm trying to say. It's like laying off some of the bets on the odds when the money gets to high.
I hope that made sense I'm little tired. hahahahaaaaaaa
Any way I'm glad to see ya posting again my friend. keep up the good work.-
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gamahuche11 months, 3 weeks ago
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Understand what you're saying CBGP - look I'm giving you all caps now!
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Don't work too hard! G_d knows I do too, though, but in my life I've had more than my share of fallow years..
Putting together a chunk of money and then taking off with it for a few years wandering..
Not so easy to do that these days though.
We tend to take our work with us to some of our favourite places and eat and drink well and soak in hot water and such to keep spirits high and be productive too.
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CHAM11 months, 3 weeks ago
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The thing about cluster munitions is that they are not easily made nor are they easily transported to the target.
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Most of the countries who utilize the bomblets have the wherewithal to manufacture them in mass quantities. And absolutely they have the delivery systems. For these two reasons the third world countries are not likely to be much of a force in this type weapon. It was designed to use against armies. But basically the use by Western Countries has been to attack populations.
It was kind of like the supreme worry about Iraq having the Nuclear Bomb. Building such is extremely difficult but even if Saddam could have built one, how was he going to deliver it?
And also it's the same thing as having a bullet with no gun to deliver it. If you don't have the gun you better carry your slingshot. A slingshot and a bullet are kind of like a rock and a slingshot. Don't take those weapons to a gunfight. -
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Kaphy11 months, 3 weeks ago
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It is nice to learn that countries are in favor of this campaign and they do not concerned about US lobby anymore.
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http://jobssingapore.wordpress.com -
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lloydm6511 months, 3 weeks ago
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Daylight:Lebanon was at one a great country, the light of the middle east.Christian were able to worship openly,night life was great beautiful hotels,casinos,and gracious people.They didn't have a problem with Israel.and still don't.Iran,and Syria have flooded the country with the most vile creatures on earth,Hezbollah.I don't know any words for them,evil just don't quite cover them
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CHAM11 months, 3 weeks ago
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Lebanon indeed was once the envy of the Middle East. There was no such thing as Hezbollah when Israel first invaded Lebanon. They formed later, for the purpose of driving Israel out of Lebanon.
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The last 24 hours that Israel was in Lebanon this last time they left 3,000,000 bomblets on the ground in residential areas that they had just occupied.
They did this to keep Hezbollah from rebuilding the homes that had been destroyed during the hostilities.
OK you all can start to call me Anti-Semitic, etc., but again I think the truth ought to be spoken. I am not a Hezbollah sympathizer at all, but those people in Lebanon long ago found out who would help them. You might recall that when Israel invaded, the Lebanese Army never engaged the Israeli Army. The total resistance to the Israeli Army was Hezbollah and their soldiers. The Head of the Lebanese Government wanted Israel to destroy Hezbollah because they were getting powerful enough politically to become the majority in the Government. -
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