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Posted by: Spadecaller 12 months ago
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Spadecaller12 months ago
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War is a vicious game filled with propaganda and heinous acts against humanity regardless of who is involved in conducting it.
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Just as Israel will attempt to portray its actions in the best possible light, so will Hamas.
What puzzles me, though, is how can anyone point the finger at the Israelis after Hamas turns hospitals and Mosques into military targets knowing that innocent civilians will die. This is the epitome of the worst kind of propaganda; using the lives of women and children to garner public opinion.
I can understand how easy it is to be fooled by this, but to me, this is the worst kind of propaganda there is.-
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canadianrancher5712 months ago
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Spadecaller- I think that you answered your own question with your first statement.
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War is a vicious game filled with propaganda and heinous acts against humanity regardless of who is involved in conducting it.
One thing that I learned when I used to fight alot was that there are no rules, and on must do what one has to so that victory is yours. This is why i cannot really condem Israel in this war, I know that it takes two to fight, but what bothers me is how war has changed so that so many innocent people die. All that I have seen in regards to this present conflict is alot of finger pointing by everyone not only on this site but in the media and that will never solve anything.-
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airglide12 months ago
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War has not changed and innocents always die. I read a book by James Fenimore Cooper, an author in the 1800's. There was a poem that I don't know who to attribute to.
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With fire and sword the country round
was vanquished far and wide
And many a childing mother then
and newborn infant died
But things like this must be
At every famous victory
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Dionys12 months ago
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"What puzzles me, though, is how can anyone point the finger at the Israelis after Hamas turns hospitals and Mosques into military targets knowing that innocent civilians will die."
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Firstly, Israel decides the targets of their attacks. So Hamas doesn't turn hospitals or Mosques into targets. They don't even operate from within them. That's more of the propaganda you pretend to think is vicious (but only when it comes from a particuar side).
Secondly -- What you're proposing is that countries should have changable moral and ethical boundries and modify them to be as evil, heartless and morally bankrupt as the people they're fighting.
It seems to me that if you're willing to change your ethical behaviour and sense of morality on a whim to be as bankrupt as the group you're fighting, then you've lost your 'war' the moment you take that action. Because you are no longer "Us" because you have become "them."-
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jmopinion12 months ago
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From an article:
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Scenes from a civil war, courtesy of Human Rights Watch and the British journalist Melanie Phillips:
"At least 15 Palestinians, including a United Nations relief worker, were killed today as Hamas looked set to complete its conquest of the entire Gaza Strip."
"Muhammad Swairki, 28, a cook for Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas's presidential guard, was thrown to his death, with his hands and legs tied, from a 15-story apartment building in Gaza City on Sunday."
"Muhammad al-Ra'fati, a Hamas supporter and mosque preacher, was thrown from a Gaza City high-rise apartment building."
"Fatah gunmen began firing mortars and rocket-propelled grenades at Shifa Hospital in Gaza City."
"Hamas gunmen attacked the home of a Fatah security official with mortars and grenades, killing his 14-year-old son and three women inside, security officials said.
Other Fatah gunmen stormed the house of a Hamas lawmaker and burned it down."
"Jamal Abu Jadian, a top Fatah commander, fled his home in the northern Gaza Strip on Tuesday evening dressed as a woman to avoid dozens of Hamas militiamen who had attacked it. When he arrived at a hospital a few hundred meters away from his house, he was discovered by a group of Hamas gunmen, who took turns shooting him in the head with automatic rifles. 'They literally blew his head off with more than 40 bullets,' said a doctor at Kamal Udwan Hospital."
Hamas has now completed its conquest of Gaza.
The last Fatah fighters were captured and then machine-gunned to death in front of their wives and children.
The Fatah compound in Gaza City will be turned into a mosque; Gaza itself into an Islamic state.-
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jmopinion12 months ago
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From another article:
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According to the Palestinian Center for Human Rights, Hamas violence was indiscriminate, demonstrating a willful disregard for the conventions of war. Hamas fighters pushed Fatah members from the roofs of tall buildings. Hamas even killed people who were already injured, or shot their enemies at point-blank range to ensure permanent disabilities. Hamas also attacked private homes and apartment buildings, hospitals, ambulances, and medical crews. All told, the June fighting claimed the lives of at least 161 Palestinians, including 7 children and 11 women. Some 700 Palestinians were wounded.
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gamahuche12 months ago
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Do we actually know that , SC?
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I've heard repeated many times that the in Gaza everything is being placed alongside everything else BUT if this is also the most densely crowded place on the planet how would it be possible to keep locations distant from each other?
I'm asking the question - not trying to prove a point of view.
Unfortunately we are being fed very large doses of outright propaganda here daily by israeligirl, who is obviously a paid agent.-
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canadianrancher5712 months ago
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I think that alot of people don't realize the size of Gaza , it is about 225sq. miles and has a population of 1.5 million . If my math is right that is about one person for the area of half of a football field . if a large part of the county is rough terain the area becomes smaller still, maybe down to the size of two people on a tennis court. So even with pinpoint acccuracy there will be the loss of innocent people .
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Spadecaller12 months ago
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gamahuche
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I do no support the Likud party and some of the other militant factions in Israel. But, I do know from first hand accounts from my cousin and aunt, who are Israeli and are opposed to the right wing reactionary government there. But they too convey the same story; that many of the Israeli soldiers are dismayed about the fact that they are repeatedly baited to attack weapons sites and other key targets of Hamas, where civilians are purposely put in harms way.
I do not know about Israeligirl. Personally, I have no relationship with her and have not found personal contact with her to be worthy of a friendship. She has only one agenda; and that is obvious. I have made an effort to get to know her, but have found that she prefers to remain aloof. In fact, I am reluctant to even comment or prop her stories as she seems too calculating for me to trust.
Regardless of Israeligirl, my own opinions are not fabricated nor are they paid for. I believe they are based on sound information and experience.-
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gamahuche12 months ago
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Thanks SC.
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I used to have quite a lot of direct contact with Israel but that was another lifetime.
So if this IS a deliberate ploy is it ONLY cynicism or is it a sign of desperation?
In any event the scale of the Israeli weaponry and the Gaza weaponry is on the level of Goliath vs David - and these pestilential and unjustifiable rockets are not killing as many people as get killed by mishandled fireworks on Guy Fawkes night every November in England.
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hyperbola12 months ago
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Nah, I do it for free. One hopes that some day both sides will wake up to the only possible solution.
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Movement for One Democratic Secular State
An Online One State Bibliography in English
...The one state idea is an idea whose time has come. Despite the occasional rhetoric, the vast majority of Palestinians understand that the Israelis aren’t going anywhere. On the Israeli side – sharing many of the exact same fears faced by the Afrikaners in South Africa – this realization is coming about much more slowly, but it is starting to come about as well. Even the Rightist Yesha Council is now discussing various one state options that do not involve ethnic cleansing as an alternative to further territorial compromises...
http://oss.internetactivist.org/index.html-
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Dionys12 months ago
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"So then it's likely that she does so for free as well"
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They're both pushing agendas that are important to them. They're both fairly extremist in their positions. They both post articles with obvious bias. But somehow Israeligirl comes out looking cleaner to a lot of people. Hmm. -
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rimbaud12 months ago
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The Arab majority is as unlikely to accept a single-state constitution that includes protection for the Jews (Ashkenazim) as it is to accept the existence of the State of Israel. What the Palestinians need are leaders on the order of Desmond Tutu, Nelson Mandela, or Mohammed (PBUH).
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hyperbola12 months ago
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Why should they do so any more than any other country? In fact this is unlikely to be a problem. 15% of the jewish population of Israel has already left because they regard the country as a failure. Most of the rest are desperately looking for a passport in some other country. Furthermore, a surprsing number of mideastern jews might well return to their countries of origin.
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Actually that problem would not have existed if the zionists hadn't been willing to let jews die if they could not be forced to go to Palestine.
Ten questions to the Zionists
by Rabbi Michael Dov Weissmandl
IS IT TRUE that in 1941 and again in 1942, the German Gestapo offered all European Jews transit to Spain, if they would relinquish all their property in Germany and Occupied France; on condition that:
a) none of the deportees travel from Spain to Palestine; and
b) all the deportees be transported from Spain to the USA or British colonies, and there to remain; with entry visas to be arranged by the Jews living there; and
c) $1000.00 ransom for each family to be furnished by the Agency, payable upon the arrival of the family at the Spanish border at the rate of 1000 families daily.
....
3. IS IT TRUE that the answer of the Zionist leaders was negative, with the following comments:
a) ONLY Palestine would be considered as a destination for the deportees.
b) The European Jews must accede to suffering and death greater in measure than the other nations, in order that the victorious allies agree to a "Jewish State" at the end of the war.
c) No ransom will be paid
4. IS IT TRUE that this response to the Gestapo's offer was made with the full knowledge that the alternative to this offer was the gas chamber.
5. IS IT TRUE that in 1944, at the time of the Hungarian deportations, a similar offer was made, whereby all Hungarian Jewry could be saved.
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7. IS IT TRUE that during the height of the killings in the war, 270 Members of the British Parliament proposed to evacuate 500,000 Jews from Europe, and resettle them in British colonies, as a part of diplomatic negotiations with Germany.
8. IS IT TRUE that this offer was rejected by the Zionist leaders with the observation "Only to Palestine!"
http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/tenquestions.htm
Apart from that, if you take the trouble to read the bibliography I linked, you will find that a surprising proportion of the articles in favor come from palestinians.
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alakazam12 months ago
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Movement for One Democratic Secular State-
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Now that's an interesting idea...may as well ask for beachfront property on Rigel ...but it's a good idea.
The question, Hyperbola, is how are you gonna get the moderates on both sides to MAKE the extremist sit down and stfu? While you are figuring that out tell me HOW they are gonna make them?
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hyperbola12 months ago
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Well Spade, here you are chanting hate slogans to incite ethnic cleansing / genocide again.
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We must adjust our distorted image of Hamas
Gaza is a secular society where people listen to pop music, watch TV and many women walk the streets unveiled
Last week I was in Gaza. While I was there I met a group of 20 or so police officers who were undergoing a course in conflict management. They were eager to know whether foreigners felt safer since Hamas had taken over the Government? Indeed we did, we told them. Without doubt the past 18 months had seen a comparative calm on the streets of Gaza; no gunmen on the streets, no more kidnappings. They smiled with great pride and waved us goodbye. ... Less than a week later all of these men were dead, killed by an Israeli rocket at a graduation ceremony. Were they “dangerous Hamas militant gunmen”? No, they were unarmed police officers, public servants killed not in a “militant training camp” but in the same police station in the middle of Gaza City that had been used by the British, the Israelis and Fatah during their periods of rule there....
Who or what is Hamas, the movement that Ehud Barak, the Israeli Defence Minister, would like to wipe out as though it were a virus? Why did it win the Palestinian elections and why does it allow rockets to be fired into Israel? The story of Hamas over the past three years reveals how the Israeli, US and UK governments' misunderstanding of this Islamist movement has led us to the brutal and desperate situation that we are in now....
Palestinians did not vote for Hamas because it was dedicated to the destruction of the state of Israel or because it had been responsible for waves of suicide bombings that had killed Israeli citizens. They voted for Hamas because they thought that Fatah, the party of the rejected Government, had failed them. Despite renouncing violence and recognising the state of Israel Fatah had not achieved a Palestinian state. It is crucial to know this to understand the supposed rejectionist position of Hamas. It won't recognise Israel or renounce the right to resist until it is sure of the world's commitment to a just solution to the Palestinian issue.
The political leadership of Hamas is probably the most highly qualified in the world. Boasting more than 500 PhDs in its ranks, the majority are middle-class professionals - doctors, dentists, scientists and engineers. Most of its leadership have been educated in our universities and harbour no ideological hatred towards the West. It is a grievance-based movement, dedicated to addressing the injustice done to its people. It has consistently offered a ten-year ceasefire to give breathing space to resolve a conflict that has continued for more than 60 years.-
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hyperbola12 months ago
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The Bush-Blair response to the Hamas victory in 2006 is the key to today's horror. Instead of accepting the democratically elected Government, they funded an attempt to remove it by force; training and arming groups of Fatah fighters to unseat Hamas militarily and impose a new, unelected government on the Palestinians. Further, 45 Hamas MPs are still being held in Israeli jails.
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Six months ago the Israeli Government agreed to an Egyptian- brokered ceasefire with Hamas. In return for a ceasefire, Israel agreed to open the crossing points and allow a free flow of essential supplies in and out of Gaza. The rocket barrages ended but the crossings never fully opened, and the people of Gaza began to starve. This crippling embargo was no reward for peace.
http://www.propeller.com/story/2009/01/03/we-must-...
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