Comments for Don't pity the Palestinians - Israel Opinion, Ynetnews »
Posted By tehranchik 12 months ago in Political NewsOpinion: Pity worst form of patronizing, will ensure Gazans continue to whine instead of acting
The residents of Gaza, and the Palestinians as a whole, say they would like their own state. Yet such state must be earned. And earning a state – a piece of land to call your own – takes much more than incessant whining to the international community coupled with a desire to drive out the Jews. It requires inner strength and the ability to create rather than destroy. This is what Israelis proved time and again for over 60 years, and this is what Palestinians have yet to prove.
Yet before the people of Gaza are able to build, Hamas must be obliterated. Moreover, Hamas' ultimate defeat must not be at the hands of the IDF, but rather, it is an endeavor that must be undertaken by Gaza residents themselves. After all, Hamas is the true reason for their misery.
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tehranchik12 months ago
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rimbaud12 months ago
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Dionys12 months ago
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"When did Hamas break the cease-fire? (...and why?)"
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Here's your answer:
http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUKTRE4BS1...
June 19 - A truce begins between Hamas and Israel. It calls for Hamas to stop cross-border rocket fire and for Israel to gradually ease its embargo on Gaza. Aug 2 - Factional fighting kills three Hamas policemen and six pro-Fatah gunmen in the Gaza Strip in the worst fighting since June 2007.
November 5 - Hamas fires dozens of rockets at Israel after Israeli forces kill six Palestinian militants in an eruption of violence that has disrupted the four-month-old truce.
December 14 - Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal is quoted as saying the group will not renew the six-month-old truce with Israel.
It never broke the truce. It simply did not renew the truce because Israeli forces crossed into Gaza (as they always do) to assassinate people it wanted to kill.-
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Georgia5012 months ago
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Dionys12 months ago
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They broke the truce. They killed people. It's entirely possible the Palestinians were terrorists. What it comes down to, however, is that Israel launched an attack across the border and then Hamas decided if Israel's going to ignore the truce and launch attacks there was no reason for them to consider renewing the truce.
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But if you really want, you can keep pretending that it was Hamas that broke the truce.-
Locky12Comment removed: Spammer, Abusive12 Replies
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hyperbola12 months ago
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More appropriate might be to ask when Israel broke the cease-fire agreement. The answer is Israel did not ever comply with the cease-fire agreement. Here is an israeli jewish description.
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How Israel is Multiplying Hamas by a Thousand
Molten Lead in Gaza
http://www.counterpunch.com/avnery01022009.html
... “ISRAEL MUST defend itself against the rockets that are terrorizing our Southern towns,” the Israeli spokesmen explained. “Palestinians must respond to the killing of their fighters inside the Gaza Strip,” the Hamas spokesmen declared.
As a matter of fact, the cease-fire did not collapse, because there was no real cease-fire to start with. The main requirement for any cease-fire in the Gaza Strip must be the opening of the border crossings. There can be no life in Gaza without a steady flow of supplies. But the crossings were not opened, except for a few hours now and again. The blockade on land, on sea and in the air against a million and a half human beings is an act of war, as much as any dropping of bombs or launching of rockets. It paralyzes life in the Gaza Strip: eliminating most sources of employment, pushing hundreds of thousands to the brink of starvation, stopping most hospitals from functioning, disrupting the supply of electricity and water.
Those who decided to close the crossings – under whatever pretext – knew that there is no real cease-fire under these conditions.
That is the main thing. Then there came the small provocations which were designed to get Hamas to react. After several months, in which hardly any Qassam rockets were launched, an army unit was sent into the Strip “in order to destroy a tunnel that came close to the border fence”. From a purely military point of view, it would have made more sense to lay an ambush on our side of the fence. But the aim was to find a pretext for the termination of the cease-fire, in a way that made it plausible to put the blame on the Palestinians. And indeed, after several such small actions, in which Hamas fighters were killed, Hamas retaliated with a massive launch of rockets, and – lo and behold – the cease-fire was at an end. Everybody blamed Hamas.
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WHAT WAS THE AIM? Tzipi Livni announced it openly: to liquidate Hamas rule in Gaza. The Qassams served only as a pretext.
Liquidate Hamas rule? That sounds like a chapter out of “The March of Folly”. After all, it is no secret that it was the Israeli government which set up Hamas to start with....
For years, the occupation authorities favored the Islamic movement in the occupied territories. All other political activities were rigorously suppressed, but their activities in the mosques were permitted. The calculation was simple and naive: at the time, the PLO was considered the main enemy, Yasser Arafat was the current Satan. The Islamic movement was preaching against the PLO and Arafat, and was therefore viewed as an ally.-
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hyperbola12 months ago
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...THE MAIN LINE was: not to repeat the mistakes of Lebanon War II. This was endlessly repeated on all the news programs and talk shows.
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This does not change the fact: the Gaza War is an almost exact replica of the second Lebanon war.
The strategic concept is the same: to terrorize the civilian population by unremitting attacks from the air, sowing death and destruction. This poses no danger to the pilots, since the Palestinians have no anti-aircraft weapons at all. The calculation: if the entire life-supporting infrastructure in the Strip is utterly destroyed and total anarchy ensues, the population will rise up and overthrow the Hamas regime. Mahmoud Abbas will then ride back into Gaza on the back of Israeli tanks.
In Lebanon, this calculation did not work out. The bombed population, including the Christians, rallied behind Hizbullah, and Hassan Nasrallah became the hero of the Arab world. Something similar will probably happen this time, too. Generals are experts on using weapons and moving troops, not on mass psychology....
...Millions are seeing these terrible images, picture after picture, day after day. These images are imprinted on their minds forever: horrible Israel, abominable Israel, inhuman Israel. A whole generation of haters. That is a terrible price, which we will be compelled to pay long after the other results of the war itself have been forgotten in Israel....
...This war is a writing on the wall: Israel is missing the historic chance of making peace with secular Arab nationalism. Tomorrow, It may be faced with a uniformly fundamentalist Arab world, Hamas multiplied by a thousand.
MY TAXI DRIVER in Tel-Aviv the other day was thinking aloud: Why not call up the sons of the ministers and members of the Knesset, form them into a combat unit and send them off to head the coming ground attack on Gaza?-
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CaptainLucid12 months ago
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Holy crap hyperbola you managed to say all that while ignoring the only relevant fact which is that hamas is bombing Israeli citizens randomly yet again. There is also the irrelevant crap like Israel may be faced with a uniformly terrorist/fundamentalist world. Guess what you wannabe pundit, they already have and they have whipped the muslims everytime and other than Egypt they still face them. Hyperbola, I am not stupid like you because I know reality. Israel has tried to make peace several times and the palestinians agree only long enough to reload. As far as your taxi driver (personally I get my advice from people smarter than taxi drivers unless it is to a *****house or a strip club or some other vice) I would rather suggest get all the palestinian leaders together and tell them to form a police unit and arrest all the terrorists before Israel has to bomb the rocket launchers.
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jimdoze12 months ago
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"you might know that the author of this article is a former member of the Israeli Knesset (parliament)"
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That does not render the opinions expressed in your "counter punch" article as having any basis resting on the fundamental principal of the survival of Israel... which, as is apparent, is precisely your point.
Lyndon LaRouche remains very proud of you, hyperbole!-
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hyperbola12 months ago
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What jimd! Now you claim that former members of the Israeli Knesset cannot speak about (or write articles about) what is going on in Isreal / Palestine because you happen not to like their opinions?
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Thanks jimd. You show clearly the totalitarian nature and ethics associated with support of zionism.
You should read what a former Speaker of the Israeli Knesset (and Head of the Jewish Agency) has to say about the increasing totalitarianism of the zionists.
The Holocaust is Over: We Must Rise from its Ashes
http://www.propeller.com/story/2008/11/03/the-holo...
Time to give up the "if its my tribe, it can't be wrong" racism jimd - especially when increasing numbers of israelis (and jews worldwide) are doing so.
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injest12 months ago
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When did Hamas break the cease-fire? (...and why?)
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On November 5, 2008 the ceasefire began to break down after Hamas militants digging infiltration tunnels into Israel were discovered by Israeli Defense Forces and fired upon. Hamas responded with a barrage of rockets which led to Defense Minister Ehud Barak giving approval for Operation Cast Lead, a series of airstrikes across Gaza, Prime Minister Ehud Olmert after discussion with Barak decided to put the operation on hold.[79] On 23 December 2008, Hamas issued a statement declaring the six months ceasefire was over
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Thinker2212 months ago
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You're right, Tehranchik.
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It's not the obliteration of Hamas that is the road to peace, it's obliteration of Islamist terorrists no matter how they call themselves.
Only when the Palestinian Arabs will be ABLE AND WILLING to negotiate a peace agreement will peace become possible.-
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Dionys12 months ago
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Thinker2212 months ago
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> Or maybe when Israeli stops crossing borders to kill whomever it wants?
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It is normal and acceptable to cross borders and kill enemy fighters during a war, Dyonis, and it will continue for as long as the Palestinians are willing the war to continue.
If and when Palestinian Arabs decide to end the wat and if they' will be ABLE AND WILLING to negotiate a peace agreement will peace become possible.
If you believe that Israel will sit idly watching its citizens killed you're badly mistaken.-
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Dionys12 months ago
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"It is normal and acceptable to cross borders and kill enemy fighters during a war, Dyonis, and it will continue for as long as the Palestinians are willing the war to continue."
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Oh sorry. I thought they did it during the truce and therefore broke the agreements of the truce.
Oh wait. THEY DID!-
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Thinker2212 months ago
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> I thought they did it during the truce and therefore broke the agreements of the truce. Oh wait. THEY DID!
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So did the Palestinian militants who launched rockets into Israel during the truce.
When BOTH sides violate the truce it's not worth the paper it is written on.-
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Thinker2212 months ago
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You may use this link in case you'll be willing to say that Hamas kept their part of the truce, Tehranchik.
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http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27714568/
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Endoscopy12 months ago
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More al taqiyya Dionys? Sounds like the Muslim lies to me. When has Hamas ever renounced their charter. In that their avowed aim is to obliterate Israel and replace it with Sharia law and nothing else is acceptable. Their claim that if Islam ever conquers a place is is supposed to remain Islamic forever. Nothing else is acceptable to them. This is the view of the other Islamic terrorist organizations. Getting rid of the Jews and instituting Sharia law is their only acceptable solution.
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How do you get peace under those conditions when young Muslims are willing to die for Allah as suicide bombers to achieve that purpose?
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CaptainLucid12 months ago
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Extra judical killings are justice when it is someone who attacks your country while using another country as a legal shield. There are many levels of legal relationships from active cooperation to extradition to local house arrest to outright refusal and military protection. The civilized world has Interpol where if some one robs a bank or murders someone the rest of the civilized world will cooperate with the investigation including active steps like checking IDs , serving warrants (which should be at least glanced at and rubber stamped despite what W wants. At the other extreme you have afghanistan, somalia, and palestine which are no longer functional countries, they are only outlaw hideouts with a loudmouth who keeps yelling "national soveriegnty". We could simplify things by just declaring war but we know it is not the peasants who hate us. They only attack us because if they don't the big terrorists will go really nasty on their village or tribe. The easiest solution is a bullet or exploding cell phone for the leaders. If that is not attainable we may have to get a bit cruder like a guided missile or bomb where we may have to take out the terrorists 4 wives and a basketball team worth of bastard future terrorists to get the top man.
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As far as terrorism that would be hoping your rocket nails some first grader who is just learning how to multiply and divide because you are a sic FUK.
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injest12 months ago
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“Or maybe when Israeli stops crossing borders to kill whomever it wants?”
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Who’s border did Israel cross?
The Gaza strip IS part of Israel.
There’s an old saying that is still true today
"You can have your own opinion but ya can’t have your own facts."-
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Thinker2212 months ago
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> ...not according to the un. remember them? statehood and all that?
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Oh yes, yes, of course, the UN, statehood and all that...
Don't you remember that the Palestinians and other Arabs REJECTED the UN offer of "statehood and all that" and continue rejecting it as we speak?-
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dissent12 months ago
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i was talking about israel, 1947, but i knew of all people you would take it that way.....
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"The specific points and impediments to the establishment of a Palestinian state are listed below. They are a part of a greater mindset difference. Israel declares that its security demands that a Palestinian entity would not have all attributes of a state, at least initially, so that in case things go wrong, Israel would not have to face a dangerous and nearby enemy. Israel may be therefore said to agree (as of now) not to a complete and independent Palestinian state, but rather to a self-administering entity, with partial but not full sovereignty over its borders and its citizens.
The central Palestinian position is that they have already compromised greatly by accepting a state covering only the areas of the West Bank and Gaza. These areas are significantly less territory than allocated to the Arab state in UN Resolution 181. They feel that it is unacceptable for an agreement to impose additional restrictions (such as level of militarization) which, they declare, makes a viable state impossible. In particular, they are angered by significant increases in the population of Israeli settlements and communities in the West Bank and Gaza Strip during the interim period of the Oslo accords. Palestinians claim that they have already waited long enough, and that Israel's interests do not justify depriving their state of those rights that they consider important. The Palestinians have been unwilling to accept a territorially disjointed state. It is feared that it would face difficulties similar to Bantustans."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposals_for_a_Pales...-
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Thinker2212 months ago
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> i was talking about israel, 1947...
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So did I. In 1947 the UN offered to divide Palestine creating TWO states, one for the jews and another for the Arabs. The Jews accepted the offer and created a state. The Arabs rejected it and they do not have a state even today.
> The central Palestinian position is that they have already compromised greatly by accepting a state covering only the areas of the West Bank and Gaza.
By the very same token Israel compromised even more by agreeing to give up the areas of the West Bank and Gaza to the Palestinians.
> These areas are significantly less territory than allocated to the Arab state in UN Resolution 181.
This is correct... but the Arabs REJECTED the UN Resoluition 181. If the Palestinians are willing to go back to 1947 and change their collective mind THERE they may try to do that. If, however, they're willing to make peace in 2009 they'll have to realize that the conditions have changed since 1947 and that in 2015 they'll, probably, be sorry that they did not accept the offers of 2009.
> They feel that it is unacceptable for an agreement to impose additional restrictions (such as level of militarization) which, they declare, makes a viable state impossible.
If the Palestinians are wiling to live in peace then they do not need ANY militarization. If, however, they're incapable of living in peace then the restriction on their militarization will actually make their state MORE viable than not.
> In particular, they are angered by significant increases in the population of Israeli settlements and communities in the West Bank and Gaza Strip ...
I can guarantee that not a single Israeli settlement will remain within the borders of the (still non-existent) Palestinian Arab state. This being said, however, one has to remember that the lands of the West Bank and Gaza do not belong to ANY state yet and that claiming that people of one ethnicity have the right to live there while people of a different ethnicity do not have such right is nothing but racism.
> Palestinians claim that they have already waited long enough...
It were the Palestinians and other Arabs who rejected and continue to reject a peaceful negotiated solution to the conflict. They can only blame themselves for the "waiting". If and when they'll decide to stop vioence and negotiate a peace agreement Israel will not refuse.
> The Palestinians have been unwilling to accept a territorially disjointed state.
As it is not topologically possible to create a NON-disjointed state from the West Bank and Gaza an alternative practical solution would be creating TWO non-disjointed Palestinian states... especially considering the current sate of affairs betweeen the TWO Palestinian governments in the West Bank and Gaza.
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Candida12 months ago
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injest: "The Gaza strip IS part of Israel."
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So it's part of Israel when it's convenient, and it's not part of Israel when that's convenient. It's not part of it when it's a question of starving them, but it's part of it when it's a question of killing them. If it's part of Israel but nobody can leave or enter, what is it if not a ghetto?-
capecoralMComment removed: Retracted by user
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hyperbola12 months ago
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Oh how determined thinker is to kill israeli jews for a vile totalitarian ideology.
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The Self-Defense of Suicide - Israel is a Weak and Dying State
http://www.propeller.com/story/2009/01/04/the-self...
Echoing Lebanon 2006, the people of Gaza are being butchered by murderous pilots of a murderous state. Ground forces will soon butcher many more. This widely-expected repetition of Israel’s large scale violence is carried out after a long process that was triggered when Israel unilaterally cleared its settlements and ground presence from Gaza only to create what has been described as a remote-controlled human zoo. Israel has maintained total control over Gaza’s borders, its air and sea space, its economy, its electricity, food and medical supplies. The people of Gaza have been starved, humiliated and constantly intimidated.
Beyond achieving very short term relief from rocket attacks the scale of Israel’s violence is question-begging and thought provoking. Israel’s actions, justified by the “no choice” (ein brera) and “self-defence” rhetoric, can temporarily put the lid on the volcano of hatred around Israel and within it but, after the initial shock and awe, it is surely destined to bring much more violence.
Given the sure failure of attempts to bring about stability through violence, intimidation, starvation and humiliation, what, on earth, is the desire that moves the Israeli state? What, do Israelis imagine, will be achieved by this massacre? There must be something which is suppressed here.
Gaza itself gives us a clue. Many of the Palestinians who live in Gaza are descendants of 750000 refugees who were expelled in 1948 from what is now the Jewish state. Ashkelon is built on the ruins of the Palestinian village of al-Majdal whose people were expelled in 1948, many to Gaza. Only by such massive ethnic cleansing could a state with a Jewish majority and character be established. Any just realisation of the refugees’ internationally recognised right of return would effectively mean the end of the Zionist project. Those who choose to return would not merely threaten the Jewish majority. Upon return, they would surely press demands for equal citizenship. In so doing, they would challenge the foundational discriminatory premise of the Jewish state, which assigns a different stake in the state to all those who pass a test of Jewishness, whether they live in the country or elsewhere.
what is in fact being “preserved” is the unwillingness, or rather the inability, of Israelis to question their own state’s apartheid foundation. The concealing mantra about Hamas’s rocket firing versus Israel’s legitimate self-defence cynically conscripts both the Palestinians of Gaza and the Israelis of Sderot. Shielding the Jewish state’s unwillingness to deal with colonial and racist Zionism is more important than all of them.-
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hyperbola12 months ago
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Israel needs a continuing cycle of violence. As long as this cycle is provoked through daily oppression, Israelis can sustain that haven in which they can unite behind their inability to examine their apartheid mentality.
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Alas, the pathology of generating violence against oneself, violence that suspends reflection on the core apartheid, succeeds only at the price of generating enormous hatred. The Israeli pathology will bring about, stealthily and fatefully, that which the Israelis fear most.There is indeed “no choice” for the nationalistic project of the eternal victims but to commit suicide with those whom they oppress.
The self-defence of suicide points out the uniqueness of the Israeli apartheid. Both the no-choice and the self-defence rhetoric contain a chilling chronicle of suicide foretold. Despite its military might, Israel is a weak and dying state that desires to destroy itself. The most powerful nations in the world assist this suicidal process and this fact calls for urgent contemplation.-
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CaptainLucid12 months ago
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**** hyperbola I am an adventurer and am almost always willing to try something once just for personal knowledge (once I consult several medical journals and research studies until I am sure it is safe) to understand what reactions on receptor cells, and various levels of chemicals like seratonin, dopamine, or inhibhitors like booze does. The mind is worthy of exploration but whatever crap you took tell me because I never want to babble like that.
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hyperbolaComment removed: Spam
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tehranchik12 months ago
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I'd like to refer rimbaud to lie #2.
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http://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/articles/2009/... -
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AnteUp12 months ago
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Thanks for posting this one, tehranchik.
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Who th heck is this Adi Dvir..............the Ann Coulter of Ynet news?
What disgusting sentiments. Even rightwing extremists in Israel
need a cheerleader - huh?
And thanks for mentioning that Hamas WAS elected. The news likes
to pretend that they ever participated in a Democratic process. I have
heard the news mention the bloody ousting of Fatah in Gaza that took
place LONG after the US and Israel convinced Abbas NOT to form a
Unity government with Hamas after the election.-
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hyperbola12 months ago
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Well drop, here is an israeli jew that disagrees with you. He says the only thing still holding up Fatah in the West Bank is the IDF and that Hamas will soon take over there.
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Israel - Living on Borrowed Time in a Stolen Land
http://www.propeller.com/story/2009/01/05/israel-l...
Communicating with Israelis may leave one bewildered. Even now when the Israeli Air Force is practicing murder in broad daylight of hundreds of civilians, elderly persons, women and children, the Israeli people manage to convince themselves that they are the real victims in this violent saga.
Those who are familiar intimately with Israeli people realise that they are completely uninformed about the roots of the conflict that dominates their lives. Rather often Israelis manage to come up with some bizarre arguments that may make a lot of sense within the Israeli discourse, yet make no sense whatsoever outside of the Jewish street. Such an argument goes as follows: ‘those Palestinians, why do they insist upon living on our land (Israel), why can’t they just settle in Egypt, Syria, Lebanon or any other Arab country?’ Another Hebraic pearl of wisdom sounds like this: ‘what is wrong with these Palestinians? We gave them water, electricity, education and all they do is try to throw us to the sea’.
Astonishingly enough, the Israelis even within the so-called ‘left’ and even the educated ‘left’ fail to understand who the Palestinians are, where they come from and what they stand for. They fail to grasp that for the Palestinians, Palestine is home. Miraculously, the Israelis manage to fail to grasp that Israel had been erected at the expense of the Palestinian people, on Palestinian land, on Palestinian villages, towns, fields and orchards. The Israelis do not realise that Palestinians in Gaza and in refugee camps in the region are actually dispossessed people from Ber Shive, Yafo, Tel Kabir, Shekh Munis, Lod, Haifa, Jerusalem and many more towns and villages. If you wonder how come the Israelis don’t know their history, the answer is pretty simple, they have never been told. ....-
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hyperbola12 months ago
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But this is far from the end of the story. In fact it is just the beginning. Every Middle East expert knows that Hamas can seize control of the West Bank within hours. In fact, PA and Fatah control in the West Bank is maintained by the IDF. Once Hamas takes the West Bank, the biggest Israeli population centre will be left to the mercy of Hamas. For those who fail to see, this would be the end of Jewish Israel. It may happen later today, it may happen in three months or in five years, it isn’t matter of ‘if’ but rather matter of ‘when’. By that time, the whole of Israel will be within firing range of Hamas and Hezbollah, Israeli society will collapse, its economy will be ruined. The price of a detached villa in Northern Tel Aviv would equal a shed in Kiryat Shmone or Sderot. By the time a single rocket hits Tel Aviv, the Zionist dream will be over.
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The IDF generals know it, the Israeli leaders know it. This is why they stepped up the war against the Palestinian into extermination. The Israelis do not plan upon invading Gaza. They have lost nothing there. All they want is to finish the Nakba. They drop bombs on Palestinians in order to wipe them out. They want the Palestinians out of the region. It is obviously not going to work, Palestinians will stay. Not only they will they stay, their day of return to their land is coming closer as Israel has been exploiting its deadliest tactics.
This is exactly where Israeli escapism comes into play. Israel has passed the ‘point of no return’. Its doomed fate is deeply engraved in each bomb it drops on Palestinian civilians. There is nothing Israel can do to save itself. There is no exit strategy. It can’t negotiate its way out because neither the Israelis nor their leadership understand the elementary parameters involved in the conflict. Israel lacks the military power to conclude the battle. It may manage to kill Palestinian grassroots leaders, it has been doing it for years, yet Palestinian resistance and persistence is growing fierce rather than weakening. As an IDF intelligence general predicted already at the first Intifada. ‘In order to win, all Palestinians have to do is to survive’. They survive and they are indeed winning.....
http://www.propeller.com/story/2009/01/05/israel-l... -
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injest12 months ago
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When was Hamas elected.........?
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1 - 10 of about 2,540,000 for When was Hamas .........?. (0.22 seconds)
January and May 2005, in which it took control of Beit Lahia and Rafah in the Gaza Strip and Qalqilyah in the West Bank. The January 2006 legislative elections marked another victory for Hamas, which gained the majority of seats in the first fair and democratic elections held in Palestine,[35] defeating the ruling Fatah party. The "List of Change and Reform", as Hamas presented itself, obtained 42.9% of the vote and 74 of the 132 seats
Seriously, why is this even a question?
.2 sec 2.5 million hits,
you just now wondered “When was Hamas elected.........?” -
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Spadecaller12 months ago
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tehranchik12 months ago
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Spade, this is a comment I left in dissent's submission a few hours ago.
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One country, everybody equal citizens with equal rights. Muslim , Jew, Christian, Hindu what ever. No walls, no settlements. Equal representation in government. Everyone needs to have their say. No one is invisible. Had the group of people living here in the 30s and 40s been included in the plans....who knows where we'd be now. Jerusalem stays as it is now with all religions able to worship there. This is where I'll get into trouble but I think reparations to the previous dwellers is something that has to happen. I know this isn't very detailed and it's a very simple, general plan with lots of room for compromise, but If it were to happen I think the whole middle east could calm down and at least take one thorn out of the lion's paw.
oh ya---get the U.S. OUT! two thorns.-
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dissent12 months ago
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the right to existence is a two way street. here's the road map of the last 60 years.
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http://www.sott.net/image/image/9591/israel-palest...
it's been strictly one way.
btw, your response to tehranchick came 23 minutes after my asking you for one. time stamps prove i can't time travel
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Endoscopy12 months ago
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What you say sounds nice but you hava a major problem.
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Explain how that is going to happen when one side ONLY has the objective of DESTROYING the other side. Read the Hamas charter and get your head out of the sand. The only acceptable result for them is the destruction of Israel and instituting Sharia law there.
That is only acceptable if you are a Muslim. Are you Muslim? Living in dhimmi status under Islam is taking your chances that the Muslims around you will continue to treat you nice and not get a wild hair and come into the ghetto killing and looting. That has been the history of people of the book under Islam. Times of peace followed by times of almost being wiped out. -
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Thinker2211 months, 4 weeks ago
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> One country, everybody equal citizens with equal rights. Muslim , Jew, Christian, Hindu what ever. No walls, no settlements. Equal representation in government. Everyone needs to have their say. No one is invisible.
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Somehow I've missed yor reply to muy suggestion for you to try selling this GREAT IDEA to the Arabs first. If and when "One country, everybody equal citizens with equal rights. Muslim , Jew, Christian, Hindu what ever. No walls, no settlements. Equal representation in government. Everyone needs to have their say. No one is invisible." will be created in place of the current 21 Arab states and the Israelis will see how great it is they'll join it, too.
Good luck, Tehranchik!
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Spadecaller12 months ago
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Tehranchik:
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"I know this isn't very detailed and it's a very simple, general plan with lots of room for compromise, but If it were to happen I think the whole middle east could calm down and at least take one thorn out of the lion's paw."
Would your plan for peace include an acknowledgment from a Palestinian government that recognized Israel's right to exist?-
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hyperbola12 months ago
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Depnds of what form that takes Spade. The world did not recognize an "aryan master race" Germany or a "white" South Africa. Neither should it recognize a "jewish state" in Israel. The world does not need more racism, and especially official condoning of racism.
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Here is an Israeli jew that puts the issues clearly.
Why Israel Has No "Right To Exist"
As A Jewish State
By Oren Ben-Dor
http://www.countercurrents.org/bendo211107.htm -
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hyperbola12 months ago
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And Spade, one should remember that many Israelis feel the same: NO "jewish state".
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Why Israeli Anti-Zionists do NOT “recognize the right of the State of Israel to exist as a Jewish state.”
In recent times, the demand has been raised, by representatives of the State of Israel, and by its supporters abroad, to recognize the State of Israel’s “right to exist as a Jewish state”. I am told that this demand is a debater's trick that was invented by Henry Kissinger several years ago.
Be that as it may, what, if anything, is wrong with this demand?
..... f the goal is a negotiated peace agreement, or treaty, there is no need for recognition of “the right of the State of Israel to exist as a Jewish state”. If the goal is to sabotage the possibility of a negotiated agreement, this demand has been placed front and center.
A couple of other examples, just to illustrate the preposterous nature of the demand:
Has anyone ever asked the Catholics of Ireland to recognize the right of Ulster, or Northern Ireland, to exist as a “Protestant state”?
Would we recognize the right of any state to exist as a “Hindu state”? As a “Muslim state”?
Just to pose the question is to expose its nature.
But, maybe we are not talking about “Jewish state” as a state affiliated to the Jewish religion. Maybe we are talking about a state that is defined by the dominant ethnicity. In that case, the position does not get any better. ...
...we have had our fill of states whose raison d'etre is to preserve ethnic superiority and domination. One does not have to refer to the late unlamented “Aryan state”. Within recent memory, we had white-supremacist Rhodesia and apartheid South Africa. Whatever limits there are to analogies from and to these white supremacist regimes, we have learned that states that define themselves with reference to the domination of one ethnic group cannot claim legitimacy...-
hyperbolaComment removed: Spam
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hyperbola12 months ago
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Israel and its allies insist that the Palestinian victims of Zionism must “recognize Israel as a Jewish state with a Jewish majority.”
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No one seems concerned about the fact that this ultimatum flies in the face of elementary democratic values regarding human equality and human rights.
This dispute is not about borders. In Ilan Pappe's recent book – “The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine” – he describes the events in a process of ”ethnic cleansing” conducted by the forces under David Ben-Gurion's leadership, from December 1947 through December 1948.
An older book, by Sabri Jiryis - “The Arabs in Israel” - describes a reality of racist segregation and racist discrimination.
Fundamentally, Zionism would prefer more land and less Palestinians. Zionism never wanted a Palestinian underclass. But, since the ethnic cleansing of 1947-48 was incomplete, there is much still to be done to achieve the goals of Zionism, and therefore much conflict and much oppression.
So, the State of Israel demands a priori recognition of the irreversibility of the ethnic cleansing of Palestine and the legitimacy of a racist regime. To summarize, the State of Israel is characterized by 3 essential features:
settler-colonialism
ethnic cleansing; and
racist discrimination.
Anti-Zionist Israelis fight to reverse, to overturn, those three essential features of the State of Israel.
Just as Zionism is predicated on taking Jewish people from our countries of origin, in which our families have lived for generations, and ingathering us to the Promised Land -- the State of Israel is predicated on keeping Palestinians out of their country of origin, in which their families have lived for generations. The essence of a “Jewish state” in Palestine has always been: Jews in; Palestinians out. This is a central, permanent feature of the “Jewish State”, one that cannot be changed by adding the adjective “democratic” to “Jewish State”.
Imagine what it would be like to add the adjective “democratic” to “Aryan state” or “Hindu state” or “Protestant state” or “Islamic republic”!
It just doesn't work that way.
Add to that the fact that the State of Israel is the main engine of anti-Semitism in the world today, as Lord Montagu predicted in 1917.
And that is why anti-Zionist Israelis do NOT “recognize the right of the State of Israel to exist as a Jewish State”.
http://www.connexions.org/CxLibrary/Docs/CX7284-Lo...
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Daylight12 months ago
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[DropkickaLib]
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How many Islamic countries have had to expell the Palestinians because of their penchant for constant violence? Just ask Jordan, Tunisia, Lebanon, Kuwait...
Those countries are the puppets of the West who lick the American and the Israeli boots. Not a single Muslim in the world respects these lackeys.-
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Endoscopy12 months ago
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ROTFLMAO
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I guess you agree with the Hamas charter when it says that if Islam ever conquers a territory then it should remain Islamic forever. This is part of their justification for the ONLY ACCEPTABLE solution of obliterating Israel and instituting Sharia law there. Would Spain be next? Or is it the horrific Jews that are the real target? -
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rimbaud12 months ago
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Hamas must put the ideology that prevents them from accepting the State of Israel on the back burner, in Allah's hands, and begin building an economy in Gaza. They should send students to Israeli and Egyptian universities. With peace, they may find Trade and Travel across their borders, and prosperity, instead of charity and martyrdom, and find they exert a greater influence over their neighbors.
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Daylight12 months ago
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Thinker2210 hours, 5 minutes ago
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Unfortunately, for Hamas and for other Islamist fanatics destruction ofIsrael is more important than their own prosperity.
Destruction of Zionist Israel is the only way to peace with pious and God fearing Jews .-
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hyperbola12 months ago
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Actually, there is a long and honorable tradition of ethical jews that say the same thing - only the end of "zionist" Israel can lead to peace. Same process that the world carried out with "aryan" Germany. Frankly, given the increasing numbers of israeli jews (and jews worldwide) that recognize zionism has been a disaster for judaism, it is probable that zionist israel will simply be dismantled by moral jews.
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Explaining the Long — and Largely Untold — History of Jewish Opposition to Zionism
http://www.propeller.com/story/2008/11/19/explaini... -
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Endoscopy12 months ago
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There is the actual Muslim mentality about Jews coming through. Jews are the big problem because they own their own land being given to them by the prior owner Britain. Muslims can't accept the fact that they no longer own the land after they conquered the land previously. Well daylight are you going after Spain next.
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dissent12 months ago
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"Unfortunately, for Hamas and for other Islamist fanatics destruction ofIsrael is more important than their own prosperity"
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as israel controls and blockades palestinian borders, palestinian prosperity is only ever possible if israel says so...... which it never will-
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Thinker2212 months ago
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The only way for Israel to NOT control Palestinian borders is to move these borders away from Israel so Israel will not have any common borders with the Palestinians.
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As far as I recall you and others suggested to "move" Israel away from the area. Would you accept the idea of moving the Palestinians away?-
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dissent12 months ago
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"The only way for Israel to NOT control Palestinian borders is to move these borders away from Israel so Israel will not have any common borders with the Palestinians."
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it's not the only way....
and it's certainly not the way israel has employed for the past 60 years which has been the rapid erasure of palestinian territories. ultimately, palestinian borders will no longer be required as there will no longer be any palestinian territories-
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Thinker2212 months ago
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> it's not the only way....
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Why don't you tell us what the other way is, dissent?
> and it's certainly not the way israel has employed for the past 60 years which has been the rapid erasure of palestinian territories. ultimately, palestinian borders will no longer be required as there will no longer be any palestinian territories
Just for the record, THERE NEVER WERE ANY "Palestinian territories" as there never was a Palestinian state. It seems that Israel and the US are the only powers pushing for the creation of a Palestinian Arab state and with it creation of Palestinian territories. Palestinian and other Arabs did and do reject a sovereign Palestinian state together with its borders.
"When facts and your beliefs contradict each other it's not the facts that should be corrected".
By the way, you've somehow missed my question, dissent: Do you have a problem with moving the Palestinians away from Israel?
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tehranchik12 months ago
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rimbaud,
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How would you suggest that students travel to foreign universities?
http://beirut.indymedia.org/ar/2004/10/1849.shtml-
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rimbaud12 months ago
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Temporarily put aside the ideology that prevents them from accepting the State of Israel, negotiate a 25-year cease fire, which, if it lasts greater than a year, will require Israel to remove restrictions on travel, especially for trade and education. After 25 years they can come back to the fight an educated and gainfully employed populace, not easily duped by their benefactors into laying down their lives for greater supplies of arms.
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tehranchik12 months ago
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tehranchik12 months ago
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I guess my live links power has been turned off.
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http://www.sott.net/image/image/9591/israel-palest...
Have you seen the amount of land loss to the Palestinians?-
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dissent12 months ago
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it's incredible isn't it? this chronology of maps show very clearly the ever disappearing palestinian lands, absorbed illegally into greater israel. it's a war of erosion. it's a war of erasure. let's call a spade a spade -- it's genocide
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altnrg12 months ago
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You are mixing facts.
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The Occupation started on 1967 when Egypt, Jordan and Syria started a war against Israel (The 6 days war). Why Egypt did not establish the Palestinian state until 1967?
Why Jordan did not establish the Palestinian state until 1967?
Today, 70% of Jordan population is Palestinian and we don't see any Palestinian claim fro Jordan to be a Palestinian state.-
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tehranchik12 months ago
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http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va=...
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hyperbola12 months ago
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You are mixing facts. Palestine was clearly defined during the British mandate. When the zionists began their massive campaign of terror and ethnic cleansing (1948), Egypt, Jordan and the zionists all occupied parts of Palestine. Egypt and Jordan have since renounced their claims.
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As for your last comment. Why would a Palestinian from Ashkelon who is currently in the Gaza ghetto created by zionists have any interest in Jordan being a palestinain state? The Gazan wants to return to his home and property in Ashkelon as guaranteed by international law.-
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CHAM12 months ago
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I agree with you HYper. Isn't anyone going to point out that the 1967 war was started by Israel? It was a "premptive war". Heck, Israel admitted they started the war . Here's a link.
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http://www.cactus48.com/1967war.html -
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Endoscopy12 months ago
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Explain to us hyper that when wars like the Islamic expansion from the Atlantic to Pacific through India and Indonesia that that is OK to take land by force. But when Israel is attacked by Muslim countries and wins that that is not OK. Hamas says that if Islam EVER conquers a place it should be Islamic forever. Does that include Spain? Well the British had the land since WW1. They created the Balfour declaration. There ended up being a different resolution. But Israel was created from British owned land.
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But all of the extremists try to claim otherwise. Why did Muslims attack Israel as British troops were leaving port declaring jihad with the cry to drive the Jews into the sea to kill them there. Why did they repeat that jihad attempt some more times finally getting their nose bloodied and losing territory in the process. What other country has been thought harshly of to keep land gained in war especially if they were the ones being attacked. Obviously not the Muslims.-
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hyperbola12 months ago
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The "murderer argument" yet again Endo? It goes like this:
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""If once upon a time, somewhere, there was a murderer, then I am entitled to murder anyone I choose for my own pleasure/profit.""
Its amazing how many times so-called "christians" like you try to use this argument to support crimes against humanity now and in the future.
Let's put it a different way. One of the biggest genocides in the mideast was the murdering of christians by jews at Mamiila Pool. Ironically the Arabs and Persians stopped the genocide and protected the christians from the jews.
Mamilla Pool
http://www.israelshamir.net/English/mamilla.htm
Does this give christians the right to carry out a genocide against jews now and forever into the future?
Really endo, you should give up on the "if its my tribe, it can't be wrong" racism and join the modern world.
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Thinker2212 months ago
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> According to a U.N. resolution Israel has been illegally occupying Palestinian lands for over 50 years.
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... and the only reason you can not show us this U.N. resolution is... What is it, Tehranchik?
A friendly advice for the future: if you're lying try to make your lies more believable. For example, you should not mention UN Resolution in your claim above. You should just say " Israel has been illegally occupying Palestinian lands for over 50 years" and I would not ask you to show the UN Resolution which, as we both know does not exist.-
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blowback12 months ago
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... and the only reason you can not show us this U.N. resolution is... What is it, Tehranchik?
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> During the first Israeli-Arab war in 1948, 750,000 Palestinians were driven or frightened from their centuries-old homes and lands. Though U.N. Resolution 194, passed in 1948, orders that these refugees be allowed to return to their homes, Israel has refused to comply for the last 53 years. Despite voting for this Resolution, the U.S. provides the money and political muscle that allows Israel's refusal to stand.
http://www.war-times.org/issues/2art5.htm-
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blowback12 months ago
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> The United Nations General Assembly has passed a resolution every year since the passage of UNGAR 194 which reaffirms the consensus of world opinion in support of Article 11, that the Palestinian refugees be permitted to return to their 1948 homes, and those who choose not to return should be compensated for the financial losses they suffered. Aside from some rare family reunifications which have been completely discontinued, Israel has never permitted any of the refugees to return to their homes, nor has any compensation been paid to the refugees for their property which was confiscated by Israel.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Genera...-
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Thinker2212 months ago
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> Israel has never permitted any of the refugees to return to their homes, nor has any compensation been paid to the refugees for their property which was confiscated by Israel.
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As I've said on multiple occasions, Palestinian refugees (those who left the areas which became Israel in 1948) did and do have the right to return on a condition that they'll show to Israeli authorities their intentions to become peaceful, productive and loyal citizens of the Zionist state.
I've also stated on multiple occasions that any person who lost property to Israel had the right and was encouraged to bring his/her case to Israeli court and demand compensation.
This being said, however, neither you nor Tehranchik was able to show "a U.N. resolution Israel has been illegally occupying Palestinian lands for over 50 years." The key words I'm looking for are "illegal", "Palestinian lands" and "over 50 years".
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Thinker2212 months ago
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Tehranchik,
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THERE IS NO "U.N. resolution Israel has been illegally occupying Palestinian lands for over 50 years."
This may mean one of two things: either you've deliberately postad a false statement or, alternatively, you did not have a clue of waht you're talking about.
Take your pick. I've assumed that you DID know what you're talking about but I might have been wrong.
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Endoscopy12 months ago
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That site is 100% garbage. It is Islamic propaganda. It ignores what happens when the borders were opened and why they were closed. Terrorist suicide bombers and weapons being smuggled in using medical supplies as cover. Such honorable people those terrorists.
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hyperbola12 months ago
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Well Rimbaud, you have not been paying attention. Hamas offered a long year truce to Israel immediately upon being elected (over 2 years ago). Israel (and the US) never even answered, but instead set up a blockade of virtually all economic activity in Gaza of the kind you advocate. It sounds like you have succumbed to the zionist propaganda effort. It would be more accurate to say the present situation is another example of the blundering of Bush and his zioncons, espècially in kowtowing to Israel.
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We must adjust our distorted image of Hamas
http://www.propeller.com/story/2009/01/03/we-must-...
Gaza is a secular society where people listen to pop music, watch TV and many women walk the streets unveiled
Last week I was in Gaza. While I was there I met a group of 20 or so police officers who were undergoing a course in conflict management. They were eager to know whether foreigners felt safer since Hamas had taken over the Government? Indeed we did, we told them. Without doubt the past 18 months had seen a comparative calm on the streets of Gaza; no gunmen on the streets, no more kidnappings. They smiled with great pride and waved us goodbye. ... Less than a week later all of these men were dead, killed by an Israeli rocket at a graduation ceremony. Were they “dangerous Hamas militant gunmen”? No, they were unarmed police officers, public servants killed not in a “militant training camp” but in the same police station in the middle of Gaza City that had been used by the British, the Israelis and Fatah during their periods of rule there....
Who or what is Hamas, the movement that Ehud Barak, the Israeli Defence Minister, would like to wipe out as though it were a virus? Why did it win the Palestinian elections and why does it allow rockets to be fired into Israel? The story of Hamas over the past three years reveals how the Israeli, US and UK governments' misunderstanding of this Islamist movement has led us to the brutal and desperate situation that we are in now....
Palestinians did not vote for Hamas because it was dedicated to the destruction of the state of Israel or because it had been responsible for waves of suicide bombings that had killed Israeli citizens. They voted for Hamas because they thought that Fatah, the party of the rejected Government, had failed them. Despite renouncing violence and recognising the state of Israel Fatah had not achieved a Palestinian state. It is crucial to know this to understand the supposed rejectionist position of Hamas. It won't recognise Israel or renounce the right to resist until it is sure of the world's commitment to a just solution to the Palestinian issue.-
hyperbolaComment removed: Spam
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hyperbola12 months ago
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The political leadership of Hamas is probably the most highly qualified in the world. Boasting more than 500 PhDs in its ranks, the majority are middle-class professionals - doctors, dentists, scientists and engineers. Most of its leadership have been educated in our universities and harbour no ideological hatred towards the West. It is a grievance-based movement, dedicated to addressing the injustice done to its people. It has consistently offered a ten-year ceasefire to give breathing space to resolve a conflict that has continued for more than 60 years.
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The Bush-Blair response to the Hamas victory in 2006 is the key to today's horror. Instead of accepting the democratically elected Government, they funded an attempt to remove it by force; training and arming groups of Fatah fighters to unseat Hamas militarily and impose a new, unelected government on the Palestinians. Further, 45 Hamas MPs are still being held in Israeli jails.
Six months ago the Israeli Government agreed to an Egyptian- brokered ceasefire with Hamas. In return for a ceasefire, Israel agreed to open the crossing points and allow a free flow of essential supplies in and out of Gaza. The rocket barrages ended but the crossings never fully opened, and the people of Gaza began to starve. This crippling embargo was no reward for peace.
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hyperbola12 months ago
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As for recognizing Israel, no country in the world would recognize an "Aryan master race" country in Germany, or a "white" country in South Africa. Neither should any country (or Hamas) recognize a "jewish" country in Palestine. That is just pure racism and the world should certainly not be condoning racist regimes. Here is a good analysis from an Israeli jew.
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Why Israel Has No "Right to Exist" as a Jewish State
By OREN BEN-DOR
http://www.counterpunch.org/bendor11202007.html
In fact, if the goal is peace in Palestine and the mideast, what the world should do is tell the Israelis it will NEVER recognize them as a jewish state. The zionists will never stop killing jews, christians and moslems for racist ideology otherwise. With that phony issue off the table, then some real progress towards peace could be made.-
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hyperbola12 months ago
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The good news is that increasing numbers of israelis (and jews worldwide) also REJECT the idea of a "jewish state".
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Why Israeli Anti-Zionists do NOT “recognize the right of the State of Israel to exist as a Jewish state.”
In recent times, the demand has been raised, by representatives of the State of Israel, and by its supporters abroad, to recognize the State of Israel’s “right to exist as a Jewish state”. I am told that this demand is a debater's trick that was invented by Henry Kissinger several years ago.
Be that as it may, what, if anything, is wrong with this demand?
..... if the goal is a negotiated peace agreement, or treaty, there is no need for recognition of “the right of the State of Israel to exist as a Jewish state”. If the goal is to sabotage the possibility of a negotiated agreement, this demand has been placed front and center.
A couple of other examples, just to illustrate the preposterous nature of the demand:
Has anyone ever asked the Catholics of Ireland to recognize the right of Ulster, or Northern Ireland, to exist as a “Protestant state”?
Would we recognize the right of any state to exist as a “Hindu state”? As a “Muslim state”?
Just to pose the question is to expose its nature.
But, maybe we are not talking about “Jewish state” as a state affiliated to the Jewish religion. Maybe we are talking about a state that is defined by the dominant ethnicity. In that case, the position does not get any better. ...
...we have had our fill of states whose raison d'etre is to preserve ethnic superiority and domination. One does not have to refer to the late unlamented “Aryan state”. Within recent memory, we had white-supremacist Rhodesia and apartheid South Africa. Whatever limits there are to analogies from and to these white supremacist regimes, we have learned that states that define themselves with reference to the domination of one ethnic group cannot claim legitimacy...-
hyperbolaComment removed: Spam
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AnteUp12 months ago
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Well yeah - that would be good advice since Israel bombed their University.
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And you have GOT to be kidding about the Palestinians focusing on building
their ECONOMY??.....................as if Israel would allow trade to function!
Not in a million - might give the people of Gaza some faith in their future.
Take my word for it - until some of Israel's "friends" tell them "NO" .........
it will NEVER happen. -
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dissent12 months ago
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"Hamas must put the ideology that prevents them from accepting the State of Israel on the back burner, in Allah's hands, and begin building an economy in Gaza."
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how, pray tell, can gaza build an economy when the door is locked and israel holds the key?-
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CaptainLucid12 months ago
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If hamas knew anything about economics they wouldn't have launched over a thousand rockets at Israel and not wonder why Israel bombs them harder just like every other time they have launched rockets and lost. Dissent there are 2 doors to gaza and one lets workers and trade in and the other machine guns anyone who crosses it and I know your ignorant self is completely wrong about which one is which. The only door palestinans can get supplies and jobs is Israel. The Egyptians like to machine gun palestinians who ask for food or medicine. Understand stupid. Tell me now why Egypt could not build highway or railroad to make profitable trade with the palestinains. They could but fellow muslims hate palestinians far more than the Israelis. They understand that palestinians are dumber than camel fertilizer and will always exploit them. Iran supplies the suckers (palestinians) with a rocket launcher that they fire and kill one Israeli. The Israelis return fire and kill 10 dumbasses (palestineans). Palestinians bitch and moan unfairness while the iranians laugh their asses off because they killed a Jew and it only cost some worthless palestinians but wait, its bonus time. Every dumbass palestinian the iranians conned or bribed into getting killed has a huge interbred family of several hundred future terrorists. Dumb easily exploitable paletinians.
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dissent12 months ago
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hey spadecaller, here's a perfect example of, and i quote, "the usual one-eyed, closed-minded, elitist and racist povs as to why none of this (that tehranchick was talking about) is going to happen".
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that is, if you can make any sense of all this twaddle
why don't you take a piece out of him?-
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dissent12 months ago
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anti-semitism is thrown around anytime anyone criticizes israel. all i can really criticize hyperbola for is being stereotypical, unimaginative and inflammatory. but what he has to say is far more substantial than the adolescent, drug-f*cked bile captain loopy has to spew.... but wait a minute, look at who i'm talking to!!
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Pecossam12 months ago
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rimbaud,
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Right on target and well stated. There are presently Israeli citizens of Palestinian heritage benefiting from their PEACEFUL participation in the State of Israel, INCLUDING its government. Why doesn't the World Press show this side more often? Is it less news worthy than show-casing the rabble that comprises Hamas, perhaps?
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Leemck0212 months ago
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My concern is the U.S. position, as it is tied to "goodwill", or rather the inspiration for more not less terrorism. Correct me if I am wrong, but seems the cross border violence, even if it is a Hamas member is not an official Hamas/Palestinian government act, but in fact against the "rule of law" (realizing the latter is mostly non-existent). What make sense to me is having a FBI type capability to bring such people to justice and locate weapons of mass destruction from the streets. The U.S. and Israel both have this capability. If Hamas refuses good faith negoticiations to accept assistance, from their choice, bringing in the French, Brits, U.S., Russia, or other nation(s) who are competent in this capacity then I can see Israel take a Scorched Earth approach. I don't think an invasion is appropriate yet. Even if we have such an act here, we employ these agencies and they bring the culprits into the system for fair handling. So, have Israel tried to be a part of the solution, or the U.S. ,who is furnishing weapons to one side, going after rouges of the government, as they do for themselves? I know the situation is complex, but the world is aware that Israel would "wipe out" others, whether they stated it as boldly as say Iran, or not. The U.S. who is the light of democracy should be more responsible. The silly analogy to the situation by the New York Mayor, will lead to a disaster like 'W', going to the wrong nation for WMD that did not exist. If we wants to give advise, let it be wise council, not that Republican lock step all the way to chaos.
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Thinker2212 months ago
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> What make sense to me is having a FBI type capability to bring such people to justice and locate weapons of mass destruction from the streets. The U.S. and Israel both have this capability.
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No country on the planet has such capability. This is the reason wars are being fought using MILITARIES and not intelligence agencies.-
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Leemck0212 months ago
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Thinker22, I would rather focus on building the capability, to reasonable expectations, to minimize the odds of non-government factions operating freely. If Hamas or any group is the elected leader, then they must show due diligence for being a responsible neighbor, and they need help with this. I am saying there are nations that can be part of the solution.
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America have, "quote", rule of law, but in 15 minutes of the local news we can hear about all sorts of violence. The point is, the nation doesn't go spastic to declare Marshall Law or an assault on the public for the acts of a few.
There are millions of people living in these areas and if either nation feels that one event can trigger a war especially if it is by a dissident, then that is a problem. The problem does extend to our door when we are supplying weapons, aid or propaganda to cause gross loss of life or counter the blessings of democracy.
In several posts building economies was mentioned. Who will risk capital in a war torn area? I think with the aid, weapons and support should come responsibility to a reasonable extent. On an individual level in America, a gun dealer have restrictions as to who can buy a gun . . . felons, mentally challenged, etc. If we are going to put ourselves out there, let's insist our government is not selling us a pack of lies that lead to another 9/11. If that's our friend, let's not go down to the bar with them for a fist fight with automatic weapons to act lawlessly.-
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Thinker2212 months ago
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> Thinker22, I would rather focus on building the capability...
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This is what the police, FBI, Homeland Security and other similar agencies and organizations are supposed to be doing. Are you saying that they all are not doing their job?
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Wang123Comment removed: Retracted by user
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jdhatl12 months ago
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I'm sorry but collective punishment of a population group for whatever reason is immoral and wrong. I understand the position of Israel supporters in this, but collective punishment is collective punishment. We should all love and support Israel but this is just stupid and crazy. Hamas is just going to get stronger and more popular, more in control. They know how to deal with military force politically, they thrive in this environment. Real peace would kill their organization, war and violence never will.
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From the 4th Geneva Convention:
Article 33. No protected person may be punished for an offense he or she has not personally committed. Collective penalties and likewise all measures of intimidation or of terrorism are prohibited. -
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Republicrat1844Comment removed: Retracted by user3 Replies
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JBauza5212 months ago
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Hamas starts by firing rockets into Isreal, and they are supposed to take it?? I don't think so. To get rid of the rocket sites Isreal meeds to bulldoze that entire area. Then see if they get hit with rockets.
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The palestinians are always crying poor us. Well they need to get a government that doesn't go around promoting terrorism. -
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Leemck0212 months ago
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It is not "Pity" for the Palestinians that tops my list of concerns. It is stupid policy and blind leadership that may cause nukes to pop, good will loss and this nation's ability to enter into commerce for all the economic, political and destabilization reasons. I may have stretched it a bit, I am very concerned about people being killed needlessly . . . and someone inviting me to be indifferent is offensive. What is 'W', "still the President" saying? Was his statement giving the go ahead? I think this nation can do better.
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Endoscopy12 months ago
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Listen to all of the Muslim type propaganda. The avowed aim of Hamas is the replacement of Israel with a Sharia government. Absolutely nothing less is acceptable. Their stated view is that after Islam conquers a place it is Islamic forever. (Does this include Spain.) They view any group outside Islam trying to broker peace as foolish. They use the Quran and ahadith to prove what they say.
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Go search "Hamas charter" to read it for yourselves. The other terrorist organizations have similar charters.
With this as a backdrop how do you expect there to be peace. The only acceptable solution for Hamas is obliteration of Israel while Israel just wants to live in peace. A few years ago the bleeding hearts kept telling Israel that if Palestinians had a place where they had their own government there would be peace. Well bleeding hearts look at the result. Gaza was used as a place to send suicide bombers from and to launch rockets from. Is that your idea of peace? Foolish libs being sucked in by the al tiqiyya (acceptable lying) of the Muslims.-
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antibrainwasher12 months ago
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Remember your hate of muslim extreamists while your selling your christian creationism and theology as the only way to heaven, Mr Endotimes. No better than the theology of the teliban or these muslim extreamists.
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That's the difference between arabs and western civilization. Western civilization has pulled the teeth of religion, we know its a collection of lies and fairytales, invented by kings and con men to control the weak minds of morons.
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codgerpriceComment removed: Retracted by user
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SandmonsterComment removed: Hard Banned
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slate12 months ago
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Ever think of just posting links so the threads would be easier to get through instead of having all those lengthy articles pasted in the threads Hyper?
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That way, the folks that want to read them can pull them up and those that don't aren't relegated to having to surf past the longish posts.
Now if in fact you wanted to post lengthy personal posts I'm all for that and do it myself but really, seeing the same 6-7 diatribes over and over and over gets more than a little old for most of us.
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antibrainwasher12 months ago
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Its about overpopulation, about human beings, brainwashed and inbred for thousands of years, producing an average of 5 children while living in a refugee camp.
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I neither pity the arabs or the jews. I hope they kill each other down to last child.
Its the red ants against the black ants, tribalism santified by religion, and I don't give a rats arse who dies. Eff em all.
BTW, how'd the apartheid South Africa turn out? -
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thepathetlao12 months ago
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the Gaza Strip is a concentration camp for the Palestinians, Israel is trying to exterminate them, because they veiw them as inferior. Besides if you look at those "rockets" that Hamas is firing, they are little more than sling shots compared to the massive and advanced (US provided) weaponry the Israelis use. All you need to do is look at the huge difference in the death tolls. Everytime Hamas lauches a rocket they injure one or two people and blow up a bus...maybe....everytime Israel sends over a few helicopters they level an entire neighborhood.....to kill one man who happens to be a top member of Hamas while killing everyone else on the block. In the long term Israel is screwed, because we cant give them weapons forever, and they just keep stiring up the anger, by bombing people and blowing up their houses while keeping ambulances from reaching hospitals, they are digging their own grave.
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LABELDUDE12 months ago
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Gaza residents have clearly been watching African-Americans who for decades have been successful at whining more than working to create "equality" for their cultural group. Whining certainly does undermine actual attempts to improve. Especially when successful in delivering Free Stuff. So, let's forget about an "affirmative Action" program for the Palestinians.
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CrzyCatDC12 months ago
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Don't you love how people have a way of turning something completely unrelated into an opportunity to whine about how they don't get things handed to them. Sounds more to me like you're the one whining about not getting something. Maybe you didn't get into the school you wanted or didn't get the job you wanted. It's always easy to blame it on someone or something else...stop whining and try harder. Isn't that what you tell everyone else?
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And let me remind you that WHITE women benefit from welfare (that's right!) and affirmative action more than any other group in this country.
...this isn't about whining. people are dying you idiot.
Why you're mulling that over, please enlighten us as to the "affirmative action" program in place for Palestinians...last time I checked, they didn't even have long term supplies of basic food and water at this point. According to you, they should just stop complaining and die already. Tell you what, why don't you fly over there to Gaza and tell them to stop whining about not having food and water?
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drpolyphemus12 months ago
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The Israeli state is indefensible. The Israelis are carrying out genocide against the Palestinians. How can a people so familiar with genocide themselves perpetrate it against another people?
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How can anyone who seeks to defend this savage and brutal occupation and genocide?
Why a bunch of Europeans who follow the same religion can eradicate a people who have been the legal and moral owners of a land for 2000 years is beyond me. The concentration camp of Gaza is a disgrace.-
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almos_vagyok12 months ago
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The Palestinians "have been the legal and moral owners of a land for 2000 years"?
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The Siege of Jerusalem in the year 70 AD was a decisive event in the First Jewish-Roman War. It was followed by the fall of Masada in 73. The Roman army, led by the future Emperor Titus, with Tiberius Julius Alexander as his second-in-command, besieged and conquered the city of Jerusalem, which had been occupied by its Jewish defenders in 66. The city and its famous Temple were completely destroyed. -
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most_reasonable12 months ago
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"The concentration camp of Gaza is a disgrace."
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It should be a sea resort.
The Pals have turned it into a concentration camp.
Want to see genocide?
Just look what the Muslim brotherhood has done to the villages there.
In the ongoing genocide, African farmers and others in Darfur are being systematically displaced and murdered at the hands of the Janjaweed, a government-supported militia recruited from local Arab tribes. The genocide in Darfur has claimed 400,000 lives and displaced over 2,500,000 people. More than one hundred people continue to die each day; five thousand die every month.
Government neglect has left people throughout Sudan poor and voiceless and has caused conflict throughout the country. In February 2003, frustrated by poverty and neglect, two Darfurian rebel groups launched an uprising against the Khartoum government.
The government responded with a scorched-earth campaign, enlisting the help of a militia of Arab nomadic tribes in the region against the innocent civilians of Darfur
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almos_vagyok12 months ago
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The Palestinians "have been the legal and moral owners of a land for 2000 years"?
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The Siege of Jerusalem in the year 70 AD was a decisive event in the First Jewish-Roman War. It was followed by the fall of Masada in 73. The Roman army, led by the future Emperor Titus, with Tiberius Julius Alexander as his second-in-command, besieged and conquered the city of Jerusalem, which had been occupied by its Jewish defenders in 66. The city and its famous Temple were completely destroyed. -
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BravoSierra12 months ago
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Israel exists because the Palestinians twice in history proved themselves to be unreliable guard dogs of the Suez and Red Sea trade route for the Western powers. If they could have gotten their stuff together 100 years ago the British would not have pulled out of the Palestinian Mandate and the land Israel now occupies would belong to the Palestinians. Same thing right after WWII. They are so hot-headed and impulsive they cannot form a viable military force or governmental bureaucracy.
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BravoSierra12 months ago
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If they could get organized they could create a Palestinian state the same way the Israeli's created Israel...through terrorism and eventual formation of a viable military.
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The concentration camp of Gaza is none-the-less a disgrace. Commerce, education and hope for a future for their children would do more to bring peace in Gaza than warfare or terrorism. Ireland is an excellent model. When the Irish invested in a global IT infrastructure and got their unemployment down to 2% there was no longer a need for the IRA. Now, the Irish are so woven into the financial interests of Britain that there will never be conflict again.-
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BravoSierra12 months ago
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Israel's motives are also invalid according ot military doctrine. Study your Clauzewitz. The Israelis say their current purpose is to destroy the Palestinian will. This is an immoral position. The purpose of warfare is to destroy the will to and the means to fight and to force the enemy back to negotiations and diplomacy. BUT the diplomacy must have an end-game. The end game for diplomacy is favorable trade agreements. Israel and Palestine would have been reconciled years ago if they had invested in the final moral goal...a good life for all.
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However, the Jews don't want a good life for all...only for themselves. This is evident by calling themselves a "Jewish State". You cannot have a true democracy and a one-nation solution and have a Jewish State. That's the same thing as the US having "democracy" and denying African-Americans the right to vote. Jews don't want Palestinians to exist any more than Palestinians want Jews to exist or they would stop calling Israel a "Jewish State".-
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BravoSierra12 months ago
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In the end the mess is sustained by the US, Russia and Saudi Arabia and other members of OPEC. This is all about controlling the Red Sea Trade route for the benefit of the West and the oil rich countries. Russia's stake is to be able to choke off oil to the west. The West's stake is to keep the oil flowing. In this scenario Israel is the West's guard dog at the mouth of the Suez. Their strategic role was proven in the British using Irael as the beachhead for taking the Suez back from the Egyptians when they claimed in in the 1950s.
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BravoSierra12 months ago
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The role of the Palestinians is to drive oil prices up. Whenever the Saudis, Iran and others want more money for their oil...they finance and stir up the Palestinians. The oil barons in the US make money from these oil price hikes as well so Bush and others have a conflict of interest. There was areason Arafat had $40million in European bank accounts when he died. He wasn't being paid to win or establish peace. He was paid to keep the turmoil going and keep the tension in the region...to keep jacking up the oil prices.
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The Israelis don't mind being the Western world's lackey guard dog...they get paid billions by the US to fulfill this role and life is good for them. Unfortunately, the Palestinians have never figured out the Arab world sees them as scum and is happy to keep using them as pawns. -
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BravoSierra12 months ago
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The role of the Palestinians is to drive oil prices up. Whenever the Saudis, Iran and others want more money for their oil...they finance and stir up the Palestinians. The oil barons in the US make money from these oil price hikes as well so Bush and others have a conflict of interest. There was areason Arafat had $40million in European bank accounts when he died. He wasn't being paid to win or establish peace. He was paid to keep the turmoil going and keep the tension in the region...to keep jacking up the oil prices.
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The Israelis don't mind being the Western world's lackey guard dog...they get paid billions by the US to fulfill this role and life is good for them. Unfortunately, the Palestinians have never figured out the Arab world sees them as scum and is happy to keep using them as pawns.
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BravoSierra12 months ago
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Strip away all the rhetoric around this conflic and the geopolitical dynamics are the same as they have been since Marco Polo's family created the Silk Road and its three major trade routes. It's all about money and who makes it off the trade routes.
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most_reasonable12 months ago
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Another one you can blame the jews on:
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A suicide attack on a mosque packed with worshipers Friday killed more than 30 people and sent enraged Shiite Muslims on a rampage through this southwestern Pakistani city, officials said.
The death toll varied with some reports putting it as high as 47. There were scores more wounded in the attack, one of the bloodiest in a long series of assaults on the country's Shiite Muslim minority.
There was no claim of responsibility, but Information Minister Sheikh Rashid Ahmed blamed "sectarian elements," in an apparent reference to outlawed extremist groups of the Sunni Muslim majority, suspected in most of the previous attacks.
Shiite Muslims immediately took to the streets, setting fires and attacking buses and cars. Girding for more violence, the government called in troops to patrol the streets and imposed an indefinite curfew on the city of roughly 1.2 million people, about a third of them Shiites. -
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most_reasonable12 months ago
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More of the Muslim stand on individual rights and Understanding of Faiths. Even if the "other" is a variant of their own faith:
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BAGHDAD, Jan. 4 -- A woman wearing an explosives belt packed with ball bearings blew herself up in Baghdad near one of Iraq's most sacred Shiite shrines, killing at least 40 people and wounding scores more in a devastating attack that shattered festive celebrations ahead of Shiite Islam's holiest day, Interior Ministry officials said.
The blast, just 20 yards from a door to the two gold-leafed domes of the Imam Moussa al-Kadhim shrine, tore through a crowd of Iraqi and Iranian pilgrims waiting to enter a checkpoint, witnesses said. Women are usually searched less aggressively than men, allowing the assailant to thwart the stringent security ringing the shrine.
Residents described scenes of carnage after the woman detonated the explosives at 11:15 a.m. on a cool, sunny morning. Dismembered bodies were strewn across a muddy road and near a covered market, the blast's force hurling some parts onto the roofs of nearby two-story buildings. Volunteers gathered bloodied pieces of flesh in black plastic bags.
In the ensuing, chaotic minutes, witnesses said, some peopled vomited at the sight and smell of blood. Numb, survivors and the wounded cried religious invocations to Hussein, the grandson of the prophet Muhammad, whose death will be marked Wednesday, on a day known as Ashura, the most sacred day on the Shiite calendar. -
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most_reasonable12 months ago
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Mumbai terrorism: 46 Muslims among the dead
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Abdul Hameed Yousuf in Mumbai
Thousands of miles away in a village in Patna (Bihar) a young woman is sometimes sobbing, and sometimes crying and weeping loudly. Shabana Perween, 28, lost her husband Mohammad Hussain on November 26 in Mumbai when terrorists sprayed bullets at people at CST Station. Her four-year-old son, Mohammad Raza Hussain, is too little to understand what happened. How will she tell the second child about the tragedy she is carrying in her womb about the tragedy, she thinks and weeps?
Mustaqeem of Jharkhand is among those who lost their dear ones in the bloodiest ever terrorist attack in Mumbai. Six members of his family including his son, daughter, uncle, aunt and two cousin brothers were killed during firing at the same railway station. They were going their home in Jharkhand to celebrate 'Id al-Adha. -
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most_reasonable12 months ago
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What is true for Nazi storm troopers and al-Qaeda operatives is true for today's fundamentalist Shiites. It is not their genuine, vehement hatred that we have to fear; it is their endless, drone-like training. Their militant hostility to Israel is no more a function of immediate, genuine, blood-boiling rage than it is the result of some heinous act or other performed by the Jewish state, however frequently such purported crimes are exploited as triggers of "popular" protest. The hostility is, unfortunately, something far more durable and deeply implanted.
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JenMurdock12 months ago
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By Way Of Deception Thou Shalt Do War."
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- the official motto of Mossad
Their own motto sort of says it all, doesn't it?
http://www.nogw.com/mossad.html -
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J_C11 months, 4 weeks ago
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my point is i sympathy with israel
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what i have to say is that:
- islamists or muslims are all the same; they want to conquer the world
- even the media is no longer impartial, as money plays a great role
- i have seen people converted to muslims just to get the money, paid by the Imam
- even those immigrants going to Europe are all fake immigrants; they are waiting for the time to come to start a riot(they are already showing us in several countries but the WORLD IS BLIND)
- I pray God for Israel's Victory
- THERE IS ONLY ONE WAY...ONE GOD...ONE LIFE -
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mossypond11 months, 1 week ago
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Ian Oderhty, writer for the Irish Indenpendant news organization, wrote an excellent article on how hamas uses Palenstian civilians to further it's agenda; and explains why Israel finally has had enough of un-ending rocket attacks by hamas and finally decided to stop hamas' attacks by invading Gaza.
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mossypond11 months, 1 week ago
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Ian O'Derthy with the Irish Independant news wrote an EXCELLENT article about how Hamas uses Palestenian civilians for political gain, and why Israel finally got tired of un-provoked hamas rocket attacks and decided to invade Gaza to put an end to hamas aggression.
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mossypond11 months, 1 week ago
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Ian O'Derthy with the Irish Independant news wrote an EXCELLENT article about how Hamas uses Palestenian civilians for political gain, and why Israel finally got tired of un-provoked hamas rocket attacks and decided to invade Gaza to put an end to hamas aggression.
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