Comments for The Raw Story | LEAKED: graphic, uncensored video shows carnage in Gaza »
Posted By dissent 10 months, 1 week ago in NewsAs Israel's IDF wages it's own "media war" via Twitter and YouTube, uncensored footage from Palestine has been completely blacked out in the US.
Until now.
The following video contains material of a violent, graphic nature. Viewer discretion is advised.
Update: Raw Story has now conceded that the video footage in this story was not in fact filmed during Israel's recent incursion into the Gaza Strip. In their own words: "The source was in error. The footage was actually taken on September 23, 2005 at the Jabaliya refugee camp, described as a bombing of a parade that killed at least 15 Palestinians. Israel denied responsibility, and the ruling Palestinian Fatah blamed Hamas. We apologize for the error."
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Candida10 months, 1 week ago
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I don't even know what to say anymore. I listen to the Israeli and US propaganda all day and wonder whether they believe what they are saying. Yes, the Israelis have a right to defend themselves, but so do the Palestinians. I could perhaps even understand the overwhelming force if this were a conflict between two nations, but it isn't. It's the oppressor punishing the oppressed for daring to rebel. This conflict didn't start six weeks ago when the last set of rockets started flying; it started 60 years ago, and no military solution short of the extermination of all Palestinians will ever fix it. As long as the Palestinian are deprived of daily necessities, as long as they are humiliated daily, and as long as pregnant women and sick old people keep dying at checkpoints, they will probably resist. Until the root causes of the problem are dealt with, there won't be any peace there, no matter how many times Israeli and US spokespeople keep repeating the peaceful intentions of Israel.
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dissent10 months, 1 week ago
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as i said on another thread, i think the intention here is to redraw the map of gaza. israel's plan is to cut the palestinians off from both egypt and the mediterranean and then carve the remainder of gaza into smaller pieces, as has been done with the west bank.
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the excessive use of force is probably seen as necessary, not to stop rockets as is the excuse, but to put israel in a stronger bargaining position when the time comes to start bargaining, ie. aim high then give a little and make it seem like a lot. it's a standard haggling technique.
after the horror of this past week and what is yet to come, suddenly the palestinians giving up the egyptian border and the access to the sea doesn't seem to bad if it means making this massacre come to an end. the rockets will, in all likelihood, continue, although far fewer as the access to the hardware will be severely restricted due to israel's increased control. but that's really neither here nor there-
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AnteUp10 months, 1 week ago
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dissent ~
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I have been wondering what the ultimate goal of this operation is, and
over the weekend I have come to a few conclusions. My guess is that
the Israelis DO NOT want to re-inhabit Gaza (duh) but, want to weaken
Hamas to the point that Israel can encourage Fatah and Abbas to come
back and take charge. Then the Israelis can let Fatah do the "mopping up"
of any remaining Hamas members or sympathizers. That will allow Israel
and the US to have the only Palestinian representative they APPROVE of
in charge..............ineffective and corrupt -Fatah. Abbas has been playing
"nice" with the West and Israel and how much has he accomplished for
his people? Yeah - just the kind of leadership the Israelis prefer!-
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dissent10 months, 1 week ago
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well one doesn't necessarily exclude the other ante up. my epiphany came when i saw the map i mention below and how the west bank has been separated from jordan and then divide into 20 or so smaller pieces. this was of interest to me because i was wondering why there was no uprising in the west bank against this assault on gaza. looking at the map and seeing this shows why.
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the only place remaining where the palestinians have any hope of coming from a position of any kind of strength because of its location to both the sea and egypt is gaza. i'm fairly sure they're now about to lose that. with hamas out of the way and fatah back in power the castration would only be that much more complete
http://www.sott.net/image/image/9591/israel-palest...-
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b-happy10 months, 1 week ago
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This is part of the Hamas Charter. The main parts:
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"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."
"The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. "
"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."
"After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying."
This is a war against Hamas. Hamas doesn't want peace. All they want is for Israel to be destroyed. They say it in plain words in the Charter that they abide by. The Hamas terrorists hide in Civilian Areas and use Palestinians as human shields so the media and Youtube can post videos of Israel retaliating and killing civilians that are living next to rocket launching pads and Hamas HQ. Also Hamas has been hiding rockets in Mosques and Hospitals so once again they can use propaganda to turn the world against Israel after Israel blows up the ammunition depots in the mosques.
If you doubt what Israel is doing, just look at Hamas. They follow a charter that calls for the destruction of Israel. Israel has called for peace and that won't happen with Hamas who wants to see Israel DESTROYED. Once again read the Hamas charter and you will understand this.
Stop changing the argument to the civilian casualty's. Hamas is using them and you to justify the destruction of Israel who once said they would give 97% of the land back to Palestine only to have Arafat reject that with a vote for violence. Hamas is at fault and that is who is being targeted.-
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dissent10 months, 1 week ago
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"Stop changing the argument to the civilian casualty's."
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as bad as they are, i have not mentioned casualties once in the comment you're responding to.
what i've mentioned is a map that shows clearly how palestinian land has withered away to almost nothing in the past 60 years, not by any force of nature but by the deliberation erosion of the state of israel.
i know you haven't looked at it, b-happy, otherwise you could not in all seriousness say what you have said.... so, just for you, here it is again.
http://www.sott.net/image/image/9591/israel-palest...
now put down the loaded rhetoric for a moment, and tell me what you see with your own eyes.
all charters, posturing, bravado and such nonsense aside, THIS is the reality. THIS is israel's charter-
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b-happy10 months, 1 week ago
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First off here is the Hamas charter URL that you supposedly support in killing all Jews. Hamas once again is the leader of Palestine and the ones that are firing rockets into Israel to kill the Jews. Plain and simple, Hamas wants to kill all jews and destroy Israel and some how you still support them. I don't get it.
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http://www.acpr.org.il/resources/hamascharter.html
Secondly, you should get out a map of pre- North America and then color it all in as Native American land. That's as much sense as showing me a map of Palestine with it all green. There were only a few populated areas when Israel was created and Israel expanded into the areas where people didn't want to live because it was pure desert. The Israeli's took this land and made it into farms and city's that would never be there if not for Israel. They fought for that land against three country's. Palestine was actually part of Jordan and Israel fought a war and won the land. Who did the Palestinians win a war against for that land?
Israel wants peace. But Hamas is the same radical Islamic group that we see in 9/11 or shooting people in Mumbai. They hate the west and the Jews. They say it clear and simple in their charter. How can you tell me that there will be peace with a group whose only purpose is too kill Jews? Where is the line drawn? Hamas fights israel by using civilians as human shields and you don't have a problem with that? Where is the outrage over a Hamas government that uses it's own peoples death for political purpose? Where is the outrage over a Hamas government that wants to kill all Jews? funny how you don't care about that. Killing Jews is fine to you which is unbelievable to me.
When Hamas is out then maybe there can be peace. Until then you and your Jew hating friends Hamas will be fought to the death by Israel since the sole purpose of Hamas is to kill all Jews.
Maybe we should give all USA back to the Native AMericans like your saying Israel should do for Palestine. Doesn't make sense unless you hate jews.-
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b-happy10 months, 1 week ago
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Funny how this video just so happened to be front page Propeller material even though it happened three years ago. ANd it was HAMAS that bombed their own people. Nice choice of videos. Anyways...
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Just think if the Indian reservations were American haters and wanted to destroy us. And think that Mexico also hated us and were funneling rockets into these reservations. Now imagine that the Indian Reservations were firing rockets into our city's from the local reservation neighborhoods.
You think Americans would sit and let our people be shot at like your suggesting for Israel? Come on. Be real. We won this land just like Israel won their land. But the difference is you can reason with the Native Americans. Hamas wants to kill all the Jews. How do you reason with them when your a Jewish country? You don't. -
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AnteUp10 months, 1 week ago
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Thanks for he link, dissent ~
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I have the DVD, Occupation 101, and a few others that show the
disappearing "footprint" of Palestinians in the land mandated to
their possession. It is shocking to me that the USA states that
we oppose the building of new settlements on Palestinian land -
we say it.....................and then we behave as if it is not ONGOING.
The Foundation for Middle East Peace online has wonderful
resources that show not only the disposition of land, but also
the roads, and walls, and checkpoints that further fracture the
land AND the daily life of ALL Palestinians - young,old - worker,
student - Fatah,Hamas - Christian or Muslim - West Bank or Gaza.
I see NO plea for peace in these policies regardless of what the
government of Israel says.
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pc25Comment removed: Spam
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andybeider10 months, 1 week ago
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the root causes are simple...the arabic moslem people refuse to help their own brothers and let them live in filth for 60 years instead of taking them in to live like relatives. they let them sit like losers in the desert in gaza instead of bringing them into egypt or jordan or syria or iran or saudia arabia, kuwait, qatar, etc. all countrys that could afford to absorb them using the billions of oil money they are sitting on but instead they want them sitting like open sores to remind the world of their failure 60 years ago. their impotence is so great that they cant take it like men so they weep like cry babies and punish their own cousins instead of helping them to grow and prosper. that is the difference between heaven and hell. in heaven people help each other and in hell they dont. god punished most moslems by making them kill each other and fight each other like fools for centuries instead of growing up to be adults. those who did manage to escape the hot sun became rational thinking human beings and the rest need to be left to live out their miserable lives singing la la la la la at the top of their lungs until they learn to behave like people..
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Candida10 months, 1 week ago
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Here are some practical suggestions on how to achieve peace by someone who's lived in Israel and knows the problems facing it. Massive areal bombardment and occupation of Gaza is not among the steps recommended.
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http://www.propeller.com/story/2009/01/01/how-to-s... -
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tehranchik10 months, 1 week ago
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I have my own suggestion.
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One country, everybody equal citizens with equal rights. Muslim , Jew, Christian, Hindu what ever. No walls, no settlements. Equal representation in government. Everyone needs to have their say. No one is invisible. Had the group of people living here in the 30s and 40s been included in the plans....who knows where we'd be now. Jerusalem stays as it is now with all religions able to worship there. This is where I'll get into trouble but I think reparations to the previous dwellers is something that has to happen. I know this isn't very detailed and it's a very simple, general plan with lots of room for compromise, but If it were to happen I think the whole middle east could calm down and at least take one thorn out of the lion's paw.
oh ya---get the U.S. OUT! two thorns.-
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Candida10 months, 1 week ago
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Probably, but their politicians want to dictate the terms. As one of the articles posted by dissent point out, they don't seem to realize (or admit) that any peace imposed on the Palestinians can't be a real peace. Only an agreement that is satisfactory to both parties is likely to last.
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Still, some of the people must want peace on both sides. I once knew a family, both husband and wife survivors of concentration camps, and who had lost children and parents there. They emigrated to Israel in the 1950s because they wanted to be safe and didn't want their children to ever go through what they had gone through. They are dead by now, but the children are my age, and probably alive. If they are anything like their parents were, I'm sure they want peace. -
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dissent10 months, 1 week ago
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i keep thinking of those maps you posted on another thread tc. they say it all.
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anyone who, when commenting on this crisis says stuff like "it's complicated" or "this has been going on for centuries" or any other hooey that thinly veils their passive support for israel, well, they should be made to color in the coloring-in printouts of these maps until they finally get it.
http://www.sott.net/image/image/9591/israel-palest...
peace is a bit like happiness.... always dependent on that next fix. always conditional. "i'll finally be happy when i .... [insert goal of choice here].... "
this map shows that peace for israel means when the palestinian territories are erased. for the palestinians? i think for them peace is a luxury beyond their reach right now. their needs are more basic -- survival, the prevention of extinction, in these territories at least, however futile
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StevieGee10 months, 1 week ago
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I used to think that a 2 state system could bring peace. I don't see that happening now. Theocracy is not a good thing in this modern world. It's not good in Iran and it's not good in Israel. There should not be a Jewish State or an Islamic State. There should be a democratic state and when the citizens of this state are oppressed they should rise up and let their plight be known to the world.
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Justice4All10 months, 1 week ago
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A media war with Israel is very difficult because they control so much. But you would think people would at least question why Israel has cut off all media coverage of Gaza and at the same time is putting so much effort into Making up their own news.
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aceofspades110 months, 1 week ago
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You stupid fools - go to Rawstory's own website & you will see this -
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"The source was in error. The footage was actually taken on September 23, 2005 at the Jabaliya refugee camp, described as a bombing of a parade that killed at least 15 Palestinians. Israel denied responsibility, and the ruling Palestinian Fatah blamed Hamas
we apologise"
You dupes are ready to accept anything without question if it serves your misguided aggendas - that goes for both sides
idiots!-
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dissent10 months, 1 week ago
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aceofspades1
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my apologies for posting video footage that was, unbeknown to me at the time of posting, carnage of palestinian people dying on a previous occasion. my intention at the time of innocently posting this was to build a genuine awareness of what is really going on and not rest on nationalistic propaganda, abstract ideology and religious dogma alone, as many posters do.
the heartlessness of many shows that we need to be reminded of what it is to die and die violently. seeing this on our tvs night after night helped bring the vietnam war to an end. not seeing it today in gaza or iraq or afghanistan is why these wars remain very much alive. death has been erased from war. i could say it's now only a number but when it comes to the iraqi dead it is not even that
journalists, as you know, have been banned by israel from entering gaza which makes it so easy, as is seen on these threads, to wash death and blood away with words -- hollow brittle loaded words that are fanatically chanted over and over again
meanwhile, the current israeli assault continues unabated. the palestinian death toll climbs and keeps climbing -- 500+ dead, 2000+ injured. their deaths and damage must of course be far more tidy, surgical and humane if not compassionate than what is seen in this footage, if israeli spokespeople are to be believed
(b-happy, i've just mentioned casualties. now's the time to admonish me for it)-
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pcknowledge10 months, 1 week ago
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This is a question, cause I'm curious. I didn't buy the argument that Israel started the last war with Lebanon over 2 Israeli soldiers who we never heard about much after Lebanon was bombed.
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So I was wondering, was that war over a dispute for the Litani river? Now I have no idea if these links are verifiable. So aceofspades1 if your going to comment don't be rude cause that's completly uncalled for on Propeller.
www.american.edu/ted/ice/litani.htm
web.macam.ac.il/~arnon/Int-ME/water/THE%20LITANI%2...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1978_South_Lebanon_conflict
tearsforlebanon.wordpress.com/2007/02/26/hezbollah...
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fiftynine10 months, 1 week ago
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"graphic, uncensored video shows carnage in Gaza"..Didn't need to see the pictures,have seen them before in another war..it's all the same..death,dismemberment..it is no different than what we have done in Iraq..blood and gore is war..period.Do you think the body's of the Israelis look any different after a suicide bomber strikes a bus or an outdoor cafe? Do you think an Israeli that has been torn apart by one of the Hamas rockets is some how nicer to look at?
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I didn't want to even express an opinion about this conflict in the beginning,,war is war and i personally hate it..much more than most..but to continually hear about the poor Palestinians,how Israel is using to much force,blah,blah,blah from some of the same people that think it is ok for us to do the same in Iraq..war is about killing !!
I am not a bible thumping individual that goes around beating people with scripture,but i can't help but think about how it says that the world will turn it's back on Israel in the final days..maybe this is it,i don't know..but when thousands of people in the world protest about the way Israel is protecting it's own,but not one word when thousands of rockets are fired at them then something is terribly wrong.
If the Arab world,or the world in general really gave a crap about the Palestinians how come they didn't help them before Israel became a state?How come no one but Israel gave them land so they could be an independent entity..no one else cared that is why.This isn't about Palestine,it is about the destruction of Israel,which Hamas has stated as their goal. -
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aceofspades110 months, 1 week ago
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See Jorden? - the post just before your last one was posted after I pointed out (not too subtly) that it was not a current video & was probably that of a Muslim suicide bomber.
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The rush to judgement woprks on both sides we see with one eye & listen with no comprehension of what we hear. I didn't have to "jump on a plane" - I simply went to the source from which it came by going on the internet.
No one is so ignorant as those who will not listen & I add those who do not investigate the source of what is being said.-
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sumptuousdigs10 months, 1 week ago
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Ace, quit being an arrogant ass. That's MY job.
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I noted the error by the time it was corrected. Anyone commenting on the story prior to the correction is exempt.
BTW... I've noticed that the good books used by ALL of the worlds major religions are full of factual errors that have been proven to a very close degree of scientific certainty since they were first published. I hold those that spouse those divine truths to a much higher degree of scrutiny.
United we stand, divided we fall...gotta love these here Yoonighded Staights! -
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jordan1110 months, 1 week ago
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When I went to the link, the link posted the story was wrong as to time frame. It was obvious from the early replies that they responded to the story before that was added. If you had checked the article before the error was found, you'd have found nothing. You lucked out. So did I,because I read the link after the error was found. No need for you to be so self righteous. Someone else found the error, not you.
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SFCGuyW10 months, 1 week ago
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The Palestiniums in Gaza are not 'the oppressed' as some in this room have said. Long ago the Israeli's attempted to come to peace with the Palestinians and allow them to live in Israel or on lands the Israeli's did not hold. But the Palestinians chose war and declared their intent to kill every Israeli man, woman and child. Thus, they were driven into other Arab nations who welcomed them with open arms. However the Palestinians attempted to overthrow the governments of each nation that welcomed them and were driven out with military force into the West Bank and Gaza. Those Palestinians under the rule of the Fatah have chosen the path of peace, but those in Gaza, under Hamas, have insisted on war. Despite the pleas of Israel for peace and mutual respect and the pleas of Arab and western and Asian nations Hamas has chosen war. Israel wanted to continue the cease fire with Hamas, Hamas refused to continual it and immediately began firing rockets at Israel. Their rockets are hitting further and further into Israel. Israel has no choice but to attack and try to weaken Hamas as much as possible. Hopefully they will be weakoned enough to allow the Fatah to take over in Gaza and join the two groups of Palestinians.
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Israel, though they not have to, has supplied Gaza with electricity, water, food and health care. It was only after Hamas took over Gaza, by attacking the Fatah, that Israel began to withhold some, but not all of what it was sending to Gaza. It was also at that point in which the Egyptians chose to impose strick restrictions on the crossing points into Egypt. In violation of the agreement with Egypt Hamas has smuggled large amounts of guns, ammo, mines and rockets into Gaza. Hamas is totally to blame for the violence presently going on and the large number of civilian lives that will be lost. Hamas has chosen to hide it's forces and weapons next to schools, health clinics/hospitals, Mosques, etc. knowing that civilians, especially children will die.-
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hyperbola10 months, 1 week ago
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Well that is the standard line from the zionist criminals. Honest Israelis have a very different opinion. Like this one.
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The Self-Defense of Suicide - Israel is a Weak and Dying State
Echoing Lebanon 2006, the people of Gaza are being butchered by murderous pilots of a murderous state. Ground forces will soon butcher many more. This widely-expected repetition of Israel’s large scale violence is carried out after a long process that was triggered when Israel unilaterally cleared its settlements and ground presence from Gaza only to create what has been described as a remote-controlled human zoo. Israel has maintained total control over Gaza’s borders, its air and sea space, its economy, its electricity, food and medical supplies. The people of Gaza have been starved, humiliated and constantly intimidated.
Beyond achieving very short term relief from rocket attacks the scale of Israel’s violence is question-begging and thought provoking. Israel’s actions, justified by the “no choice” (ein brera) and “self-defence” rhetoric, can temporarily put the lid on the volcano of hatred around Israel and within it but, after the initial shock and awe, it is surely destined to bring much more violence.
Given the sure failure of attempts to bring about stability through violence, intimidation, starvation and humiliation, what, on earth, is the desire that moves the Israeli state? What, do Israelis imagine, will be achieved by this massacre? There must be something which is suppressed here.
Gaza itself gives us a clue. Many of the Palestinians who live in Gaza are descendants of 750000 refugees who were expelled in 1948 from what is now the Jewish state. Ashkelon is built on the ruins of the Palestinian village of al-Majdal whose people were expelled in 1948, many to Gaza. Only by such massive ethnic cleansing could a state with a Jewish majority and character be established. Any just realisation of the refugees’ internationally recognised right of return would effectively mean the end of the Zionist project. Those who choose to return would not merely threaten the Jewish majority. Upon return, they would surely press demands for equal citizenship. In so doing, they would challenge the foundational discriminatory premise of the Jewish state, which assigns a different stake in the state to all those who pass a test of Jewishness, whether they live in the country or elsewhere.
what is in fact being “preserved” is the unwillingness, or rather the inability, of Israelis to question their own state’s apartheid foundation. The concealing mantra about Hamas’s rocket firing versus Israel’s legitimate self-defence cynically conscripts both the Palestinians of Gaza and the Israelis of Sderot. Shielding the Jewish state’s unwillingness to deal with colonial and racist Zionism is more important than all of them....-
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hyperbola10 months, 1 week ago
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Israel needs a continuing cycle of violence. As long as this cycle is provoked through daily oppression, Israelis can sustain that haven in which they can unite behind their inability to examine their apartheid mentality.
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Alas, the pathology of generating violence against oneself, violence that suspends reflection on the core apartheid, succeeds only at the price of generating enormous hatred. The Israeli pathology will bring about, stealthily and fatefully, that which the Israelis fear most.There is indeed “no choice” for the nationalistic project of the eternal victims but to commit suicide with those whom they oppress.
The self-defence of suicide points out the uniqueness of the Israeli apartheid. Both the no-choice and the self-defence rhetoric contain a chilling chronicle of suicide foretold. Despite its military might, Israel is a weak and dying state that desires to destroy itself. The most powerful nations in the world assist this suicidal process and this fact calls for urgent contemplation.
http://www.propeller.com/story/2009/01/04/the-self...
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nnflfan10 months, 1 week ago
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I am sad for the Palestinian people in general, for they suffer even worse than our own Native Americans did. As much as I believe that only God should decide who lives and who dies, I believe the Isrealis must do whatever is needed to put an end to this whole nonsense. There is only one solution to the entire middle east crisis and that is to simply stop the killing. Stop tring to kill me, I will stop tring to kill you. Its that simple. The world is held hostage by a few Satanic radicals who believe they are following the commands of God. For some reason these people cannot accept that most of us worship the same God, just in different ways. How many centuries have Sunni & Shiite been at each others throat becuase they didn't agree on who should succeed Mohammed? Lost in all of this is Gods message. May peace be upon us all, and God Bless!
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hyperbola10 months, 1 week ago
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Well, we should take heart in the increasing numbers of israelis (and jews worldwide) who reject the crimes of zionism. Like these israelis:
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Why Israeli Anti-Zionists do not recognize the right of the State of Israel to exist as a Jewish state
In recent times, the demand has been raised, by representatives of the State of Israel, and by its supporters abroad, to recognize the State of Israel’s “right to exist as a Jewish state”. I am told that this demand is a debater's trick that was invented by Henry Kissinger several years ago. Be that as it may, what, if anything, is wrong with this demand?
If the goal is a negotiated peace agreement, or treaty, there is no need for recognition of “the right of the State of Israel to exist as a Jewish state”. If the goal is to sabotage the possibility of a negotiated agreement, this demand has been placed front and center. A couple of other examples, just to illustrate the preposterous nature of the demand: Has anyone ever asked the Catholics of Ireland to recognize the right of Ulster, or Northern Ireland, to exist as a “Protestant state”? Would we recognize the right of any state to exist as a “Hindu state”? As a “Muslim state”? Just to pose the question is to expose its nature.
But, maybe we are not talking about “Jewish state” as a state affiliated to the Jewish religion. Maybe we are talking about a state that is defined by the dominant ethnicity. In that case, the position does not get any better.
...we have had our fill of states whose raison d'etre is to preserve ethnic superiority and domination. One does not have to refer to the late unlamented “Aryan state”. Within recent memory, we had white-supremacist Rhodesia and apartheid South Africa. Whatever limits there are to analogies from and to these white supremacist regimes, we have learned that states that define themselves with reference to the domination of one ethnic group cannot claim legitimacy.
Israel and its allies insist that the Palestinian victims of Zionism must “recognize Israel as a Jewish state with a Jewish majority.” No one seems concerned about the fact that this ultimatum flies in the face of elementary democratic values regarding human equality and human rights. Israel’s backers seek to legitimize that which is illegitimate by any standard of democracy.
This dispute is not about borders. In Ilan Pappe's recent book – “The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine” – he describes the events in a process of ”ethnic cleansing” conducted by the forces under David Ben-Gurion's leadership, from December 1947 through December 1948. An older book, by Sabri Jiryis - “The Arabs in Israel” - describes a reality of racist segregation and racist discrimination. ...-
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hyperbola10 months, 1 week ago
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Fundamentally, Zionism would prefer more land and less Palestinians. Zionism never wanted a Palestinian underclass. But, since the ethnic cleansing of 1947-48 was incomplete, there is much still to be done to achieve the goals of Zionism, and therefore much conflict and much oppression. So, the State of Israel demands a priori recognition of the irreversibility of the ethnic cleansing of Palestine and the legitimacy of a racist regime. To summarize, the State of Israel is characterized by 3 essential features:
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settler-colonialism
ethnic cleansing; and
racist discrimination.
Anti-Zionist Israelis fight to reverse, to overturn, those three essential features of the State of Israel.
...So, there can be no “right to exist” of the State of Israel as a “Jewish state”, whether we are referring to the dominance of a religious group or of an ethnic group. Add to that the fact that the State of Israel is the main engine of anti-Semitism in the world today, as Lord Montagu predicted in 1917.
And that is why anti-Zionist Israelis do NOT “recognize the right of the State of Israel to exist as a Jewish State”.
http://www.propeller.com/story/2009/01/05/why-isra...
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sumptuousdigs10 months, 1 week ago
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This is a post from another thread, but, I think, topical.
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The powerful nations of the world seem to suffer from a collective case of amnesia when it comes to "the sins of the fathers".
One could get a little wisdom from the ancient poem "Beowulf".
Who was that monster "Grendel", the (perceived) bastard that was cast aside, while the town flourished? And why did the sounds of their merry making torment his ears so? -
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BB6410 months, 1 week ago
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Both sides have problems but I tend to side with Israel. They've been trying to keep their troops out. You want the real enemies of peace in this region? Look to Iran and Syria. Both have supplied weapons, money and terrorist. I don't see hospitals, schools or businesses being financed. Israel left green houses and other businesses behind and Hammas or the PLO destroyed them. Why? Because it's costs them far less. Get them to do the killing, supply a little money & weapons. Then they use their dead for propaganda. It doesn't matter if it's civilian or militant for their purposes. You want to stop the violence, get Iran & Syria to behave.
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hyperbola10 months, 1 week ago
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You forgot to tell us that the greenhouses were only viable if one had ten times the water (jews) available to the other inhabitants of Gaza. You also might learn that Palestine was famous for production of fruit, even strawberries, long before the zionists arrived.
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As for building the palestinian economy, you have your eyes wide shut. The zionists are doing their best to make this impossible, including the continuing theft of land and other property (when they are not bombing it).
Israel Tightens Chokehold on Village of Entrepreneurs
Nilin, midway between Jerusalem and Tel Aviv, is home to nearly 5,000 Palestinians. Known as the "village of entrepreneurs", it has more than its share of millionaires. But that looks set to change.
Traditionally, Nilin has enjoyed the benefits not only of a thriving agricultural industry on its plentiful outlying lands, but also of four factories that supply goods ranging from cola to fuel to Palestinians across the Ramallah region.
Encircled by half a dozen Jewish settlements like Hashmonaim – all illegal under international law – the village is slowly being sealed off in a fashion that may soon make its isolation almost as complete as Gaza's.
Since May, Israel has begun building its separation barrier along one length of the village, cutting it off from 250 hectares, or 40 per cent, of its farmland. The land will be effectively annexed to the neighboring settlements.
Copying the strategy of nearby Palestinian villages, the people of Nilin have begun a campaign of mainly nonviolent protests to delay the work in the hope that world opinion, or the Israeli courts, will win them a reprieve. ...
"We have no choice but to resist because the other option is that we watch our economy being slowly strangled to death. Israel wants us to leave this land for the settlers, but we are not going anywhere. We will continue struggling for our right to stay here."
http://www.propeller.com/story/2008/11/15/israel-t...-
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BB6410 months, 1 week ago
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I do find your terms, "occupied territory" interesting. Other than the United States, I've never seen a nation that was attacked and fought back returning captured territory. Jordan was a part of the Arab league that attacked Israel. The idea, very much like the PLO or Hammas, was the total destruction of Israel. Well the Jews won the battle and your army, what was left of it, ran away like a bunch of school girls. I think what the Jews should have done was evict all of the former Jordanians and be done with it. Russia, Poland and France did that so why shouldn't Israel.
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hyperbola10 months, 1 week ago
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You have your events backwards. The fact is that the UN was setting up a single country in Palestine with equal rights for all inhabitants regardless of race or religion (with the backing of the US government) when the zionists started their massive ethnic cleansing cmapaign in 1948.
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Details here:
Zionism: The Real Enemy of the Jews
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article18...-
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BB6410 months, 1 week ago
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You're implying Jordan was an independent nation then too. They were colonial territories. Perhaps rather than screwing around with all of these tin plated dictatorships, we simply turn the whole region back over to the Turks. I'm sure they would have no problem retaking most of that region.
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BB6410 months, 1 week ago
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I would agree. But the rest of the world is ****** off because Bush didn't get involved. I think we sell all we can to Israel and let them take care of this once and for all. Since the Gulf War, we've restricted them somewhat and it's gotten us nothing.
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hyperbola10 months, 1 week ago
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In actuality, the zionists had already been carrying out terrorist attacks for four years previously, including of the civilian population that was supposed to be "frightened" into fleeing.
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A Summary of Zionist Terrorism in the Near East — 1944-1948
Prepared for Dr. Ralph J. Bunche, UN Mediator for Palestine
Foreward: In view of the tragic assassination of Count Folke Bernadotte by identified Jewish terrorists on September 17 of this year, the following report has been prepared for the use of Dr. Bunche, Count Bernadotte’s immediate replacement.
The report is a compilation of all identified terrorist attacks on British, American and Arab individuals and entities from the assassination of the British Resident Minister in the Middle East on November 6, 1944 by members of the terrorist Jewish Stern gang to the assassination of Count Bernadotte on September 17, 1948 by members of this same gang of fanatics.
This information is compiled from reports of the US Department of State, the British Foreign Office and various American and British press services.
http://www.jrbooksonline.com/HTML-docs/bunche-repo... -
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hyperbola10 months, 1 week ago
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For someone who has an interest in "military" matters, it might be interesting for you to learn that the zionists were the inventers of the car bomb and the first to use it against civilians. Look Here:
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The Poor Man's Air Force
A History of the Car Bomb (Part 1)
http://www.tomdispatch.com/post/76140/mike_davis_o... -
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hyperbola10 months, 1 week ago
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If you really want to understand the context of all this, this book from an israeli professor is highly recommended.
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The ethnic cleansing of Palestine
By Ilan Pappe
Univeristy of Haifa, Israel
Can you tell ZNet, please, what your new book, "The ethnic cleansing of Palestine" is about? What is it trying to communicate?
The book tries to show that in 1948, the Zionist movement waged a war against the Palestinain people in order to implement its long term plans of ethnic cleansing (whereas Israeli historians, including 'new historians', claimed that the war was waged by the Arab world against the state of Israel in order to eliminate it and it resulted in expulsions of Palestinians). The Arab world tried to prevent this cleansing, but was too fragmented, self-centered and ineffective to stop the uprooting of half of Palestine's native population, the destruction of half of its villages and towns and the killing of thousands of its people.
And since that ethnic cleansing was successfully implemented in almost 80% of Palestine without any global or regional repercussions - the ethnic cleansing policy continues ever since 1967 in the remaining 20% of the country. Creating a Jewish state in historical Palestine cleansed of Palestinians is still the ideolgoical infrastructure on which the state of Israel is based. How to achieve this goal is a divisive issue between Left Zionists - hoping to negotiate a settlement that would leave a small number of Palestinains in a greater Israel and the Right Zionsts willing to implement a more direct cleasning policy from the same area even today.
The book uses the accepted scholarly definition of Ethnic Cleansing to show its academic as well legal applicability to the case of Palestine and argues that since in the eyes of the world - including the State Department and the UN - ethnic cleansing is a crime against humanity, this how we should view the Israeli actions in the past and ISrael's policies in the present.....
http://www.zmag.org/znet/viewArticle/3041
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BB6410 months, 1 week ago
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Sorry, I did mean to address the green houses. I wasn't aware there wasn't enough water. One question. Rather than buying suicide bombers or those rather expensive longer range missiles, how about drilling a few wells? How about a little manufacturing then. And I don't mean bomb making factories. How about building a few hospitals that actually are hospitals., schools that aren't terrorist training facilities or teaching that a good career move consists of a vest and explosives. Or is this a little to complicated for you to follow?
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hyperbola10 months, 1 week ago
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You should broaden your sources of information. Then you would learn about the major efforts that Hamas made to do exactly what you claim they should have done. The highly censored nature of our coroporate media makes getting unbiased news harder, but it can be done. Here is a comment from two israeli jews.
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Where's the Academic Outrage Over the Bombing of a University in Gaza?
Not one of the nearly 450 presidents of American colleges and universities who prominently denounced an effort by British academics to boycott Israeli universities in September 2007 have raised their voice in opposition to Israel’s bombardment of the Islamic University of Gaza earlier this week. Lee C. Bollinger, president of Columbia University, who organized the petition, has been silent, as have his co-signatories from Princeton, Northwestern, and Cornell Universities, and the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. Most others who signed similar petitions, like the 11,000 professors from nearly 1,000 universities around the world, have also refrained from expressing their outrage at Israel’s attack on the leading university in Gaza. The artfully named Scholars for Peace in the Middle East, which organized the latter appeal, has said nothing about the assault.
While the extent of the damage to the Islamic University, which was hit in six separate airstrikes, is still unknown, recent reports indicate that at least two major buildings were targeted, a science laboratory and the Ladies’ Building, where female students attended classes. ...
..the Islamic University is the first and most important institution of higher education in Gaza, serving more than 20,000 students, 60 percent of whom are women. It comprises 10 faculties — education, religion, art, commerce, Shariah law, science, engineering, information technology, medicine, and nursing — and awards a variety of bachelor’s and master’s degrees. Taking into account that Palestinian universities have been regionalized because Palestinian students from Gaza are barred by Israel from studying either in the West Bank or abroad, the educational significance of the Islamic University becomes even more apparent.-
hyperbolaComment removed: Spam
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mstrlstr10 months, 1 week ago
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the problem is that the younger people were not around to see the PLO, egypt, syria, jordan and all the rest of the chicken-shiite muslim states sucker punch israel over and over from 1946 to the present, and so they BELIEVE that hamas is a poor down trodden honest group of middle of the road muslim peace makers bent only on world peace... when, in fact, they are no less than blood thirsty SOB's who would kill their own children by strapping bombs to them and sending them out to kill innocent civilians... they are hate filled and would kill YOU and your family just for being americans... would you expect america to simply stand by and let canada or mexico lob mortars across our borders with impunity?... then why should israel have to do so?... do NOT stop the bombing and invasion until every last one of them is DOA...
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hyperbola10 months, 1 week ago
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Well that is standard zionist propaganda anyway. the truth is very different. The fact is that the zionists (many of whom were great admirers of the nazis) started a racist colonial totalitarian project based on ethnic cleansing of the christians and moslems in palestine already at the end of the 19th century. Already then, honest moral jews condemned the zionist project because they knew it involved ethnic cleansing (see below). As the zionist project gets ever closer to its ultimate (and guaranteed) failure, the zionist racists strike out in ever more deadly and futile frustration at their failure.
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Jewish Criticism of Zionism
.... Israel Zangwill, one of Herzl's earliest and strongest supporters, eventually turned against the idea of establishing a Jewish state in Palestine. Ironically it was Zangwill who coined the phrase "a land without a people for a people without a land." It was this phrase that became the potent rallying call for Zionist settlement in Palestine.14
It was not until 1904 that Zangwill realized that there was a fundamental problem with the Zionist program. In a speech given in New York in that year he explained:
There is. . . a difficulty from which the Zionist dares not avert his eyes, though he rarely likes to face it. Palestine proper has already its inhabitants. The pashalik of Jerusalem is already twice as thickly populated as the United States, having 52 souls to every square mile, and not 25 percent of them Jews; so we must be prepared either to drive out by the sword the tribes in possession as our forefathers did, or to grapple with the problem of a large alien population, mostly Mohammedan.. . . This is an infinitely graver difficulty than the stock anti-Zionist taunt that nobody would go to Palestine if we got it. . . .15
Zangwill and many other leading Zionists split from the movement in 1905 ....
http://www.mepc.org/journal/9012_corrigan.asp-
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BB6410 months, 1 week ago
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So the folks with the only working democracy are a bunch of Nazis. If that really were the case, I mean Israel using the Nazi methods, do you really think we'd see any Arabs left in the Middle East? You guys haven't won a war against them yet. Every time you've attacked them you've given them more land then they started with. I'm tired of hearing about Palestine or the Jordanians still living there. Perhaps it's time to simply arm Israel and let them have at it. Do what the Russians, Arabs and Persians have been doing for the last 60 years. Let Israel take out anyone and everyone out. When you're done, march east building an empire. Well isn't that what you're suggesting we're doing already?
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hyperbola10 months, 1 week ago
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And by the way mstrlstr, we Americans are getting increasingly fed up with fighting wars for zionist racists.
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Bringing the Arab-Israeli War Home
...The American people should be livid, though, with their bipartisan political elite and the Israel-firsters at Commentary, the New York Times, National Review, the Weekly Standard, and the Washington Post, as well as that hive of anti-American U.S. citizens that fund and lead AIPAC, for involving them in this barbarous mess. At some point down the road, every U.S.-taxpayer-funded bomb, artillery shell, and bullet aimed at the Palestinians will yield Americans killed at the hands of al-Qaeda, its allies, or those it inspires in attacks launched in response to U.S. support for Israel. Those Americans will be killed because their political and media leaders – corrupted to the bone by AIPAC – have involved them in a religious war that threatens nothing vital to their country's principles or national security, their personal economic well-being, or their children's lives.
And worse is yet to come. Israel's Gaza invasion has produced an unusual number of public anti-Israel demonstrations by American Muslims around the United States. The 2006 Israel-Hezbollah war produced similar events, but the current, Gaza-focused demonstrations are angrier and larger in number. How long, one wonders, will it be before Israel's military actions lead to violent clashes in America?
If this occurs, Israel and its American supporters will have the insurance policy they desire above any other, one they are desperate to obtain before Israel takes harsh action – by forced deportation or other means – against its rapidly growing and radicalizing Arab population. Once the Arab-Israeli religious war has been brought into the United States and is producing blood in America's streets, the Israel-firsters will claim the carnage proves that secular America and theocratic Israel are in the same boat and facing the same enemies. Flogging this plausible but palpable lie, AIPAC-owned American leaders will consign this country to an unending war against Islam, the same catastrophe that is Israel's lot.
http://www.propeller.com/story/2009/01/05/bringing... -
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hyperbola10 months, 1 week ago
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In fact, mstrlstr, even israeli jews are tired of being used by askenazi zionist racists.
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Even in Sderot, Israelis Say No to Gaza Attack
It has been widely acknowledged that Israel began a public relations campaign soon after beginning their bombing campaign over Gaza. As usual, they have had plenty of help. One example of this was Alan Dershowitz's article "Israel, Hamas, and moral idiocy" which ran in the Christian Science Monitor on New Year's eve. In a tired tradition, Dershowitz tries to blame the Palestinians for making Israel kill them.
...I've been to Sderot: just over a year ago in November, 2007. ... I saw the devastating effects of the missiles from Gaza. Even though there had not been a death from these rockets in recent memory when I was there, I was not surprised to find that the missiles had inflicted an incredible mental wound on the residents. But I was surprised to find that although the people of Sderot who I met wanted the missiles to end they understood that militarism would not protect them. The people I met with were not calling for war, they were calling for negotiation. ... Even an IDF commander I met told me, off the record, "The Qassams [missiles] are like stones, there is no way to stop them. The only way is negotiation."
Even more amazing, residents of Sderot are organizing to try to end the attacks. Read the text of this petition signed by hundreds of Sderot's residents which has been posted at the website jews sans frontieres.
Clearly not all people in Sderot agree with these views, as has been shown. But it's also clear that Dershowitz and other proponents of the endless war will always use the people of Sderot as the cannon fodder they need in the moment. The residents of Sderot are primarily Mizrahi Jews, poor and working class, who have been settled on the periphery to play exactly this role. As much as Dershowitz might want to fight to the finish, those in the crossfire just want an end to the shooting.
http://www.propeller.com/story/2009/01/05/even-in-...
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icatsmeow10 months, 1 week ago
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Update: Raw Story has now conceded that the video footage in this story was not in fact filmed during Israel's recent incursion into the Gaza Strip. In their own words: "The source was in error. The footage was actually taken on September 23, 2005 at the Jabaliya refugee camp, described as a bombing of a parade that killed at least 15 Palestinians. Israel denied responsibility, and the ruling Palestinian Fatah blamed Hamas. We apologize for the error."
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More arab/palestinian propaganda! No surprise! -
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icatsmeow10 months, 1 week ago
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Update: Raw Story has now conceded that the video footage in this story was not in fact filmed during Israel's recent incursion into the Gaza Strip. In their own words: "The source was in error. The footage was actually taken on September 23, 2005 at the Jabaliya refugee camp, described as a bombing of a parade that killed at least 15 Palestinians. Israel denied responsibility, and the ruling Palestinian Fatah blamed Hamas. We apologize for the error."
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More arab/palestinian propaganda! No surprise! -
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slate10 months, 1 week ago
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I have a solution. An immediate cessation and peace. Give the Gaza back and allow the Palestinians and Israelis to freely flow back and forth unharmed and Israel and the World give Palestine the aid needed and monitor that the money is used for only rebuilding and humanitarian uses.
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Both Palestine and Israel affirming the right to their neighbors to peacefully exist.
With the Israelis army posed on the boarder and after the first rocket is launched into Israel and or first suicide bombing or attack, Israel can unleash all her power to finish the job.
If Israel attacks without provocation the UN comes in and attacks Israel. -
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Spadecaller10 months, 1 week ago
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The nature of discourse on Propeller regarding this conflict has been contentious and bitter.
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There are two wars in progress; a violent war and a propaganda war. Those who insist that one side has "the truth" on their side is surely self-deceived.
There is a lot of hatred developing between both sides because most members are insisting they know the truth; but there are no saints on either side of this dispute.
I don't support Israel's militant parties and many of its reactionary decisions, nor do I support a terrorist organization. I do support the Palestinians and Israelis who want peace and are willing to coexhist.
My aunt and cousin, who are Israeli, are among a majority of Israelis who are willing to recognize an autonomous Palestinian State. They know it will not happen as long as Hamas runs the show, and continues to work towards their ultimate goal - the destruction of Israel.
The rest of you ideologues on Propeller who think you know so much and choose to demonize either side are causing more hatred and polarization.
While this schism of hatred widens, the warmongers and bigots are getting what they think they want.
Some are extremist fundamentalist Muslims and some are extremist fundamentalist Jews, some are your common garden variety anti-Semites, and some are bigots who hate all Arabs.
The "We're right -You're wrong" dialogue that I see going on here is misguided, hateful, and counterproductive. -
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texaspilot210 months, 1 week ago
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slate you almost had it right....allow israelis and palestinians to flow back and forth un-armed.....lol...thats more effective no?
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i watched the HAMAS rep this morning ....he lashed out but filed to apologize for the rockets falling on israel...Hamas took poer by force...they probably shoulod lose power by force.....a systematic - house to hosue search of Gaza and after wards installing a UN peacekeeping force like in the Siani...woulod be a good answer no? Remember the Hamas fighterrs have few options, no education and little incentive to behave- tell me honestly...what other option did the Isralis have......ask your self what would Hamas do if they had all the weapons and tanks that Israel does....is there any question?? lololol...-
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m-simon10 months, 1 week ago
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texaspilot2 - yeah the nerve of the Jews.
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The reason Palestinians aren't allowed to freely flow back and forth is that the Philistines like to put explosives on their people and detonate them among Jews. The Jews surprisingly don't like that. They object to rockets being fired on their cities and towns too.
Ah for the good old days when you could just put the Jews on trains and send them to work camps where they wouldn't cause trouble.-
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BB6410 months, 1 week ago
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Come on now. You're being incentive. Being a terrorist car bomber is a viable career choice for most Islamic dunderheads. They're not smart enough to actually read their own Koran, it's easier to have one of the mullias tell them what to do. No where in thei book does it mention any virgins for killing. It talks a lot about killing but nothing about virgins. Then again, I can't figure out where Bush got the bit about a religion of peace. Oh, perhaps he misunderstood Peace for Piece. You know, piece of terrorist here. Piece of terrorist there.
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mwriteman10 months, 1 week ago
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So, the "carnage in Gaza" film was a fake! Wow, how surprising is that? I suppose next Hamas will say they don't hide like cowards behind human shields of women and children! And that they don't pray every day for the painful slow death of every Jew in israel. But, of course, most of the world still eats their propaganda like Manna.
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malichimo10 months, 1 week ago
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Palestinians don not want peace. They want all Jews exterminated. They break the peace process every time. THEY are the ones that cannot except another religion. Gaza should be emptied out and given to the ORIGINAL owners of the land--THE HEBREWS.
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edstop10 months, 1 week ago
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By your own admission, this video is 3 years old and resulted from a Hamas attack on the Palestinian Fatah group. Why not just remove this entire link from AOL, unless you just want to propagate the lie ... how come no one is talking about why the Palestinians refused to renew the cease fire agreement that expired and instead began launching hundreds of missiles into Israel days before Israel began defending itself? I guess that the truth just doesn't sell as well as fiction.
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"Update: Raw Story has now conceded that the video footage in this story was not in fact filmed during Israel's recent incursion into the Gaza Strip. In their own words: "The source was in error. The footage was actually taken on September 23, 2005 at the Jabaliya refugee camp, described as a bombing of a parade that killed at least 15 Palestinians. Israel denied responsibility, and the ruling Palestinian Fatah blamed Hamas. We apologize for the error." -
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