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Posted by: Newperson 10 months, 3 weeks ago
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Newperson10 months, 3 weeks ago
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BronxBomber10 months, 3 weeks ago
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When polar bears are in serious trouble, then we're in serious trouble 'cause we'll be right on top of the food chain!
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Dionys10 months, 3 weeks ago
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BronxBomber10 months, 3 weeks ago
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You can't feed them intolerant ignoramus's like yourself. The poor polar bears would die of a severe bad case of indigestion.
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BronxBomber10 months, 3 weeks ago
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I see your ol lady "DameL" agrees with you, that's perfect!
Two minds w/o a single thought.
:o)(comment_max_expanded_depth : 55) (comment depth : 7) (recursion depth : 6) (max_comment_reply_depth : 40) (comment_max_render_depth : 55)Reply
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BronxBomber10 months, 3 weeks ago
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SandmonsterComment removed: Hard Banned
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Mutainia10 months, 3 weeks ago
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I'm not a global warming denier, O "I served in Afghanistan for the George Bush". I just have a hard time CO2 is causing it, due to the fact that even the polar caps on Mars are melting. :)
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UpholdOurConsitution10 months, 3 weeks ago
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Mutania's not denying that global warming is occuring, he/she is just saying that he/she doesn't believe the CO2 is causing it. It seems that most people believe that increased atmospheric CO2 is what's causing it, but NO ONE really knows for sure WHY it's happening.
Sorry, but only arrogant fools have convinced themselves that they KNOW the reason as to why our planet is heating so quickly. I doubt very much though that it's just ONE reason... I am of the OPINION that it's probabaly a lot of things compounded together. But, since I am not an arrogant fool (or at least I try not to be) and hardly an expert on the topic, I don't really KNOW for sure. We'll know after-the-fact WHY it happened, since hindsight is ALWAYS 20/20.(comment_max_expanded_depth : 55) (comment depth : 7) (recursion depth : 6) (max_comment_reply_depth : 40) (comment_max_render_depth : 55)Reply
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Tangent00110 months, 3 weeks ago
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I partially agree. Science has been mistaken before, perhaps not on this scale, but it is possible there is a more potent source for the warming than greenhouse gasses. Currently, I find the data convincing and the underlying theory rational (there's nothing 'crazy' about the notion of steadily increasing greenhouse gasses trapping a steadily increasing amount of heat).
In my mind, the increasing acidity in the oceans alone is enough to be concerned about our CO2 emissions. That has the potential to affect the primary protein supply for at least a third of Earth's population.(comment_max_expanded_depth : 55) (comment depth : 8) (recursion depth : 7) (max_comment_reply_depth : 40) (comment_max_render_depth : 55)Reply
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UpholdOurConsitution10 months, 3 weeks ago
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Here's some 'science' for you Tangent:
"Human contribution to atmospheric CO2 is actually quite small ... about 39 out of every 100,000 molecules of air are CO2, but humans contribute just 5 percent of total CO2. Moreover, it takes five years to go from 39 molecules of CO2 to 40 molecules, as nature absorbs about 50 percent of man’s CO2 emissions."
Source: http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:rgQR0QSCSOsJ:w...
And here's the most interesting link (to me, anyway):
http://www.m4gw.com:2005/m4gw/faq.html
Penn & Teller did a good episode about Global Warming on their Showtime series Bulls**t. Penn is incredibly abrasive and obscene, but the information they provide is pretty impressive. Their conclusion is also impressive, IMO, considering they admit that they really just don't know for sure what's causing the earth to warm.(comment_max_expanded_depth : 55) (comment depth : 9) (recursion depth : 8) (max_comment_reply_depth : 40) (comment_max_render_depth : 55)Reply
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Tangent00110 months, 3 weeks ago
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This same article states: "...pre-industrial atmospheric levels of car-
bon dioxide were 270 parts per million (ppm),while today’s
levels are around 385 or 390 ppm..." That's a 40% increase. Are you telling me that is NOT going to have an effect?(comment_max_expanded_depth : 55) (comment depth : 10) (recursion depth : 9) (max_comment_reply_depth : 40) (comment_max_render_depth : 55)Reply
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UpholdOurConsitutionComment removed: Spam
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UpholdOurConsitution10 months, 3 weeks ago
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Oh man! How in the world did that get flagged as spam!?!? Argh! Damn Propeller!!! Okay, one more time...
Yes, that is exactly what I'm telling you Tangent. Your statistic of 40% is only for a period of less than 100 years! OVERALL, humans only contribute 5% of TOTAL CARBON EMISSIONS ON EARTH. So, your "40%" is merely a statistical manipulation to make it look like a dramatic increase. But the scale is too small. When you look at the big picture, you see that...
"Through glacial core sampling, climatologists have been able to liberate the earth's atmosphere from Antarctica and Greenland as far back as 400,000 years. They have found that there is a correlation between CO2 and the earth's surface temperature. The change in CO2 lags behind the change in temperature by 800 years. This proves that CO2 does not drive the change in temperature. Instead, temperature drives the change in CO2 in the earth's atmosphere."
But what drives temperatures then?
"The earth's climate is dynamic. It is always changing. There were periods in the earth's history where the climate was much warmer and much cooler than it is today. The current warming period is known as the Modern Warming Period. It was preceded by the Little Ice Age (LIA), which occurred around 1650 to 1850 AD. The LIA was preceded by the Medieval Warm Period (MWP), which occurred around 800 to 1300 AD. There was also a warming period after the last great Ice Age called the Holocene Climate Optimum, and it occurred around 7000 to 3000 BC. The last great Ice Age ended 10,000 years ago (i.e., 8000 BC). During this time, the earthÕs surface temperature was 7o Celsius cooler than it is today. Looking at climate through a geological time frame, we would never suspect CO2 as a major climate driver because none of the major climate changes can be explained by CO2, man-made or otherwise."
But then, why do temperatures seem to be rising?
"A common misconception amongst the general public is that temperatures are rapidly increasing. This is only with some of the surface data, and it is selected surface data. In fact, much of the surface data that is collected is around urban areas or areas, which have had significant land use changes. And, that data is contaminated. Most cities of the world are hotter than their surrounding environment. This has nothing to do with CO2 but has everything to do with land use. On the other hand, satellites provide comprehensive coverage of the earth 24/7. Satellite data from the last 29 years has demonstrated that there has been an almost imperceptible rise in temperature in the northern hemisphere from 1980 to 2002 and a slight decline from 2002 through 2007."
All this quoted info was from the second website I referenced in my original response. That's why I said it was "most interesting";-)(comment_max_expanded_depth : 55) (comment depth : 10) (recursion depth : 9) (max_comment_reply_depth : 40) (comment_max_render_depth : 55)Reply
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UpholdOurConsitution10 months, 3 weeks ago
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Haha Engnr... I would even being to claim that I might even have the slightest capability of fixing such a huge problem. In fact, I'm not sure that the human race as a whole is capable of fixing something like this. Heck, I doubt we're even capable of figuring out what's causing it until after it's already done. Common sense dictates that, before you can figure out HOW you are going to fix something, you need to know WHY it's not working right in the first place. And, I'm sorry Engnr, but I'm not just going to take your word for it that the sun is causing it.
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UpholdOurConsitution10 months, 3 weeks ago
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Aye, I meant "I wouldn't even begin to claim..." in the beginning there. I tried to edit, but the darned button keeps disappearing on me. Trying to work and comment at the same time is never a good idea, LOL.
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Mutainia10 months, 3 weeks ago
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"Well why don't you go live on Mars then for Christs sake?"
Mut: No thank you. Besides, Nevada is a lot closer. :)(comment_max_expanded_depth : 55) (comment depth : 7) (recursion depth : 6) (max_comment_reply_depth : 40) (comment_max_render_depth : 55)Reply
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Mutainia10 months, 3 weeks ago
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Oh, by the way, even though the polar caps on Mars are melting, the planet is still very cold. And, guess what? Inspite of it being very cold to the point where it's ice caps are made of dry ice even, the atmosphere is MADE of CO2 which is WHY the ice caps are made of dry ice. You'd think that an atmosphere so rich in CO2 would be as hot as Venus, the way your Algore types TALK about CO2.
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Mutainia10 months, 3 weeks ago
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Oh, and another thing. WHAT got Mars cold enough to freeze all that CO2 in it's caps? HOW did that CO2 GET there to BE in those ice caps? Scientists believe Mars was warmer and wetter once, meaning, all that frozen CO2 was REALLY consintrated in its atmosphere in a BIG way. Yet, inspite of the CO2 being present, it got cold. How do Algore types explain this?
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Tangent00110 months, 3 weeks ago
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Well, CO2 is a known greenhouse gas, and we KNOW atmospheric CO2 levels have increased since the industrial revolution.
I explained it to my kids this way: It's a nice day out, but you decide to put on a long sleeve shirt rather than a t-shirt. After a while, you start sweating. Do you check and see if someone turned up the thermostat?
BTW, Mars' orbit is eccentric, meaning the whole durn planet moves toward and away from the sun quite a bit(comment_max_expanded_depth : 55) (comment depth : 6) (recursion depth : 5) (max_comment_reply_depth : 40) (comment_max_render_depth : 55)Reply
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normallysilent10 months, 3 weeks ago
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http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=40=662...
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capecoralMComment removed: Retracted by user29 Replies
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Tangent00110 months, 3 weeks ago
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Yes, the sea ice recovers in winter, but it has been receding further every summer, so much so that last year the northwest passage was open.
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capecoralMComment removed: Retracted by user11 Replies
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Tangent00110 months, 3 weeks ago
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For arctic explorers sure, but not as a trade route.
"The Arctic pack ice prevents regular marine shipping throughout the year, but climate change is reducing the pack ice, and this Arctic shrinkage may eventually make the waterways more navigable."(comment_max_expanded_depth : 55) (comment depth : 6) (recursion depth : 5) (max_comment_reply_depth : 40) (comment_max_render_depth : 55)Reply
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capecoralMComment removed: Retracted by user6 Replies
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Tangent00110 months, 3 weeks ago
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I'm not saying there won't be benefits of opening the NW Passage. I'm saying the fact that the passage will be open as a trade route, since, well, ever, is indeed evidence that the extent of summer ice is receding.
Thanks for the link, BTW. Great info. Check out July 2008 vs. July 1979.(comment_max_expanded_depth : 55) (comment depth : 8) (recursion depth : 7) (max_comment_reply_depth : 40) (comment_max_render_depth : 55)Reply
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greenmac10 months, 3 weeks ago
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Here is some good reading for those who want to know about sea ice. The sea comes and goes with the seasons... the problem is it is going earlier and is gone longer. This changes a lot of things...animal breeding and migration are affected as well as the ability to forage. For the Inuit if changes how they move about.
This article is about 5 years old.. the problem has escalated since then...
http://pubs.aina.ucalgary.ca/arctic/Arctic57-3-299...(comment_max_expanded_depth : 55) (comment depth : 8) (recursion depth : 7) (max_comment_reply_depth : 40) (comment_max_render_depth : 55)Reply
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greenmac10 months, 3 weeks ago
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This is an easier read...and includes simulations.
FTA
As of September 8 2008, Environment Canada analysis indicates that sea ice over the Northern Hemisphere is approaching its minimum of approximately 4.9 million sq. km. which is below normal but still about 0.4 million sq. km. above the record low ice cover in 2007. This will probably make this summer’s sea ice cover the second lowest summer ice cover since hemispheric sea ice records have been kept (at least 50 years). Both the North West Passage (via the Canadian Archipelago) and North East Passage (via the East Siberian Sea) are ice free. (Click here to see a comparison with the last 5-years)"
http://www.socc.ca/seaice/seaice_current_e.cfm(comment_max_expanded_depth : 55) (comment depth : 9) (recursion depth : 8) (max_comment_reply_depth : 40) (comment_max_render_depth : 55)Reply
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greenmac10 months, 3 weeks ago
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I believe what you said there is incorrect. The satellite data just ushered in new methods of "viewing" the field. Records have been kept for many years. The thickness of the field is not determined through the use of satellite pictures. Yes the passage has been open over the years but not to extent that we have seen lately.
There were several attempts to get through the passage ...some failed others took years...... yes there were successes...such as the st Roche and Ice breakers as well. To compare the passage today to what was is an unfair comparison and leads people to believe that the passage was ice free way back...not so.(comment_max_expanded_depth : 55) (comment depth : 11) (recursion depth : 10) (max_comment_reply_depth : 40) (comment_max_render_depth : 55)Reply
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greenmac10 months, 3 weeks ago
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"While very warm temperatures were also seen in the Arctic in the 1930s, the loss of Arctic sea ice observed in the past 20 years has no precedent in the historical record. For example, the fabled Northwest Passage opened in 2007, an event that has not occurred since at least 1497, and probably for a much longer span of time. Between 1979 (the year satellite imagery of the North Pole first became available) and 2006, Arctic sea ice extent shrunk by about 10% in winter (4% per decade) and 20% in summer (8% per decade). The loss of sea ice, when plotted on a graph (Figure 3), roughly followed a straight line over time. There were a few noisy ups and downs, reflecting colder and warmer years. A trend that approximately follows a straight line is called a "linear" trend. A continued linear summertime 8% per decade loss of sea ice would leave the summertime Arctic Ocean ice-free by 2100. The ocean would still partially freeze in winter, with about 50% of the ocean covered with ice."
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BB6410 months, 3 weeks ago
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The Antarctic continues to embarrass the prognosticators as it exhibits very strong sea ice growth. In fact the ice is growing by significant amounts (a total of 17% since 1979) and in direct defiance of the orders issued by the computer models.
For the month of December both sea ice extent and concentration were up significantly over 1979 (the first year satellite measurements were available for the full year), 17.3% for ice extent & 18.3% for ice concentration.
Granted this is the Antarctic but we're seeing increases in ice at the South Pole. This does not fit into any of your computer models.(comment_max_expanded_depth : 55) (comment depth : 7) (recursion depth : 6) (max_comment_reply_depth : 40) (comment_max_render_depth : 55)Reply
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wtagg10 months, 3 weeks ago
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Area is not necessarily the same as volume. You are providing a one dimensional piece of information. If you can show that the ice volume on the earth has not changed, I think you would be on to something.
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capecoralMComment removed: Retracted by user13 Replies
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wtagg10 months, 3 weeks ago
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Your comment, link, and info is not based in arguing about bears and hunting ground, it is directed at global warming and evidence or lack of evidence supporting it. You opened the door to the expansion of the topic, not me. If the evidence you provided was directed strictly at habitat, then you might have a foundation for this latest comment.
If you want to remove all the global warming comments for your statements and talk strictly about habitat, bears, and hunting grounds, then you might have a stronger argument.
I am not arguing the bear info, I am not arguing the cause of GW, I am disputing the research and it's one-dimensional point of view concerning GW.(comment_max_expanded_depth : 55) (comment depth : 6) (recursion depth : 5) (max_comment_reply_depth : 40) (comment_max_render_depth : 55)Reply
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wtagg10 months, 3 weeks ago
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Again, how can seeing one frame of a movie inform you as to the contents, direction, plot, and outcome of the movie?
If next year the temp goes up the same amount, would that convince you that global warming is valid and of concern? Last year was a warm year where I am. Does that *wipe out* the other statistics for that year?
One year doesn't make a trend or indicate anything other than it was one cold year.
Ironically, it could be considered a valid hypothesis worthy of study. Did the reduction in many areas of the use of fossil fuels contribute to the change? Are we, and have we, been in a global cool down that has been masked by other factors? I know you intended the question to be more of a comic response, but I think there certainly could be a ounce of truth within.(comment_max_expanded_depth : 55) (comment depth : 8) (recursion depth : 7) (max_comment_reply_depth : 40) (comment_max_render_depth : 55)Reply
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wtagg10 months, 3 weeks ago
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That's well and good. My point is that your application of the information you present is flawed and cannot be used to either support or deny the existence of global warming/ cooling or anything else. It is a very small slice of a very large picture.
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wtagg10 months, 3 weeks ago
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The enthusiasts on both sides of any debate are interested in their position and the power it brings. At one time, such things as unions, political action groups, and possibly even lobbyists, all performed needed functions to promote change. Now, they are only there to further their own agenda. Unfortunately, our political system has been optimized for justify their existence. The dems and the reps both have their hand in this and it supports their existence. Neither truly want the system to change because that would change the power balance that they enjoy.
This reminds me of studies that the government and industry supports. One example is the egg debate. One study suggests that *eggs* are bad. This really fuels only one thing, for a study to support that *eggs* are good. The government or an industry group are not really going to fund another study or research that supports the first study, but someone (or the government) will fund research or a study that disputes the first studies findings. Stick almost any topic or commodity between the *'s.
The real problem in my mind with areas like the ANWR is that the industry signed off on it to get the Prudhoe Bay field. They signed a contract and should be forced to abide by their decision, as short-sighted as it may have been.
I'm not against drilling even in ANWR. I am against giving the resource away to a company who will make billions on it. The oil is the commodity of the national government, at this point. I say hire a drilling company to go in and get the oil. Or make the US a partner in the resource, allowing a company to come in and get it and as a partner, the US shares equally in the profits. If the field brings in $1 billion in gross profits, the US gets $500 million.(comment_max_expanded_depth : 55) (comment depth : 12) (recursion depth : 11) (max_comment_reply_depth : 40) (comment_max_render_depth : 55)Reply
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Tangent00110 months, 3 weeks ago
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"Twelve-month long drop in world temperatures wipes out a century of warming"
This has to do with the Hadley Center study that show a 12-month drop in temperature ANOMALIES, not the temperatures themselves! This blogger hasn't a clue!
If you want the official position of the Hadley Center, go here:
http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/research/hadleycentre/...
"Anyone who thinks global warming has stopped has their head in the sand."
NASA, GISS, UAH, and RSS all have similar statements.(comment_max_expanded_depth : 55) (comment depth : 8) (recursion depth : 7) (max_comment_reply_depth : 40) (comment_max_render_depth : 55)Reply
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wtagg10 months, 3 weeks ago
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Numbers can be made to say many things. Actually, made to say anything might be a better statement.
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BB6410 months, 3 weeks ago
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You must remember, they're not dealing with real science. Evidence and proof rarely comes into play when dealing with the church of Global Warming, now known as Global Climate Change.
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Tangent00110 months, 3 weeks ago
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Then how come all the deniers can post is misinterpreted data posted on someone's blog?
It's about time the deniers pony up and produce their data either that A) global warming isn't happening, or B) that it is primarily caused by a factor other than the burning of fossil fuels. Actually, I'd be happy if they just picked ONE of those two opposition stances, they seem to switch between them as necessary.(comment_max_expanded_depth : 55) (comment depth : 7) (recursion depth : 6) (max_comment_reply_depth : 40) (comment_max_render_depth : 55)Reply
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