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Posted by: Radiofreeeuropa 10 months, 1 week ago
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Radiofreeeuropa10 months, 1 week ago
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For me the question addressed here "where do you start the clock?" has always been the bone of contention. I don't have an honest answer, yet regardless the violence must stop. I understand it- if your son or father were killed by a group of people how can you be expected to NOT hate them, retaliate?
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Yet no one gains anything through the violence.
Somehow, some way, it must stop.
All I can say is Ghandi and Martin Luther King won their wars.
And the reverberations are still being felt today.
Napoleon lost his.
There is more to be learned from Gandhi than from Napoleon.-
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Candida10 months, 1 week ago
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Here is an Oxford professor, who reviews the whole history. It appears that he has no trouble to decide who the real victim is.
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"As always, mighty Israel claims to be the victim of Palestinian aggression but the sheer asymmetry of power between the two sides leaves little room for doubt as to who is the real victim."
Avi Shlaim
http://www.propeller.com/story/2009/01/06/avi-shla...
He also has some suggestions on how the problem could be solved. Unfortunately they involve some compromises on the part of Israel, so his suggestions are not likely to be followed.-
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hyperbola10 months, 1 week ago
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Well fiftynine, probably the only way to end this is to apply the principles of American democracy and international law - one country in all of Palestine with equal rights for all inhabitants independent of race or religion. This is what the UN was working on when the zionists started their massive campaign of terror and ethnic cleansing of christians and moslems in 1949.
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Indeed, many jews in Israel (and the world) would be overjoyed to have the world put an end to their killer zionist overlords.
Jews sans frontieres: Sderot Jews Condemn Gaza Attack
Despite the ongoing rocket attacks on their town from Gaza in the last several years, some 500 Sderot residents have recently signed a petition calling to stop the IDF operation in the Strip and renew the truce with Hamas.
The tragedy of Sderot is that nobody in Israel cares about the people of Sderot beyond the lip service to their utility as sacrificial lambs for the "national cause" (i.e. the cause of ethnic cleansing and apartheid.)
Well, some Sderot residents are stepping up to the task and speaking for themselves. Their petition calls on the government to keep the peace is here in Hebrew. Unfortunately no translation, but see my translation below.
the petition continues:
On the other side of the border live a million and a half Palestinians under unbearable conditions, and most of them want, like we do, calm and the opportunity of a future for themselves and their families.
We live in the feeling that you have wasted that period of calm, instead of using it to advance understandings and begin negotiations, as well as for fortifying the houses of residents as promised.
We call on the Prime Minister and the Defense minister not to listen to the voices of incitement and do everything they can to avoid another round of escalation, to secure the continuation of the calm and to work...towards direct or indirect negotiations with the Palestinian leadership in Gaza in order to reach long term understandings.
We prefer a cold war without a single rocket to a hot war with dozens of victims and innocent fatalities on both sides.
We ask you to offer us the possibility of political arrangement and hope and not an endless cycle of blood.
This petition has been gathering signatures in Israel since the 11th of November. Needless to say, it was ignored by the murderous office holders of Israel.
http://www.propeller.com/story/2009/01/06/jews-san...
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CaptainLucid10 months, 1 week ago
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I don't buy this crap about the disparity of power having anything to do with victimhood. One time I was frisbee golfing with some friends and a couple little craps came out and threw rocks at our faces, talked crap, and flashed their sorry ass shanks in our faces. The only reason those bastards left walking was because I had weed on me and didn't want a situation. A week later one of the bastards rode into the parking lot of the grocery store I worked in college. He looked at me and we recognized each other and I told him in ruder terms to F off or die. He looked shocked for a moment then rode off on his bike. I could have just bashed his face in both times but I held back. What I want to know is am I a victim like Israel because I was attacked or did I somehow victimize some little bastards when I told them to put their wannabe shanks away and leave me alone.
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CaptainLucid10 months, 1 week ago
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No because he got on his bike and rode off. By the way a few days later the crap walked into the store so I kept an eye on him. So did the store cop. He left the store with a pair of shiny bracelets on his wrists. I am smart which is why I didn't bash him the first time because I didn't want any cops asking why some bastard is bleeding next to me because I didn't want them asking questions that could lead to the bag of weed in my pocket and this was IL not CA where I have my doctors letter. I had already been busted once for posession but beat the charges due to lack of evidence even though they hauled away a box full of my pipes and bongs. When there is a problem the first thing I do is survey the scene to understand the accepted level of force. Whether I am taking on a few of the guys who booted me from the frat I briefly pledged or staring down a crack gang because one of those bitches thinks her hands can come in contact with my wallet. Once we all agreed by mutual assent by eye contact that no one wants to pull a weapon or throw a punch I was playing a grip game with a crazy bitch and my wallet. I kept my wallet.
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splitrch10 months, 1 week ago
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Hi Candida,
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I read this in today's L.A. Times. It was written by an Israeli. What do you think?
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-keret7-2...-
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Candida10 months, 1 week ago
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I agree with the article that proportionality is not the crux of the problem.
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FTA: "The motives of vengeance, which drive us to kill those who have killed people we love, are completely irrational, even if we try to wrap them in rational packaging. We exact vengeance because we hate and are hurting, not because we excel in mathematics and logic."
It also asks how many bombs Israel should have dropped and how many deaths would be acceptable. To both I would say: none. No amount of bombing will solve this problem. As the woman in the video clip of this thread says, you can't bomb your way to peace. Only when they finally start to deal with the root of the problem, which is the dispossession and oppression of the Palestinians, will there be any hope for a solution.
I saw a report on CNN (Anderson Cooper) last night from Sderot. The reporter spent some time with the locals in a bunker during a rocket attack. It was crowded, but they were safe. A rocket hit nearby, and they all ran out to see what had happened and to offer help if needed. There was some damage, but no injuries or death. Among the people on the scene was a young girl, a photography student, taking pictures of the damage, and the reporter interviewed her.
He asked whether she approved of the current Israeli raid on Gaza, and she said: "No." Surprised, the reporter asked why not when they are shooting at her and could have killed her. I don't have the exact quote, but she said something like: "Yes, but we have our shelters and our warning system. Over there, they have nothing." So what should Israel have done, the reporter asked. "Citizens should talk to each other," was her answer. She admitted that she is in the minority with this view, but I think if more people thought like her, the situation wouldn't be so hopeless.-
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splitrch10 months, 1 week ago
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Yeah, the whole situation is terrible. I don't know what can bring about peace other than the absolute desire for it. I firmly believe that what we all share in common far outweighs the few differences among us. It's too bad we focus on the differences rather than our commonalities. If we could physically feel each others' pain this would all come to a quick end.
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Candida, there are no demons, only victims.
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MRCOFFEECAKE10 months, 1 week ago
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Actually Ghandi didn't really win.
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But that aside, he certainly made for better opportunity.
This is a different world now. The battle is no longer just for religious freedom.
The battle now is for power, land and oil..
There needs to be an international; mediator.
Jews need their land and freedom and Arabs/Muslims need their sovereignty.
The two goals do not need to be conflicting if they have leadership that can be committed to honestly brokering a deal.
You need a Jew who sees the Muslim point of view and a Muslim who understands the Holocaust.-
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fiftynine10 months, 1 week ago
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MRCOFFEECAKE..That would be great and when everyone quits calling for the extermination of the Jews and their state maybe that can happen,until then i doubt it.
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People conveniently forget that the Jews were the target of elimination in recent history.How would any other group of people react to the rhetoric and violence if it were aimed at them,especially after what the Jewish people have already went through?
Easy answer..quit firing rockets into their land,stop the suicide bombers,quit kidnapping their people,and stop the talk of extermination.Try that for a while and see if it works..if it doesn't then they can always resort back to the violence. -
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hyperbola10 months, 1 week ago
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There are many such Israelis coffee.
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Why Israeli Anti-Zionists do not recognize the right of the State of Israel to exist as a Jewish state
In recent times, the demand has been raised, by representatives of the State of Israel, and by its supporters abroad, to recognize the State of Israel’s “right to exist as a Jewish state”. I am told that this demand is a debater's trick that was invented by Henry Kissinger several years ago. Be that as it may, what, if anything, is wrong with this demand?
If the goal is a negotiated peace agreement, or treaty, there is no need for recognition of “the right of the State of Israel to exist as a Jewish state”. If the goal is to sabotage the possibility of a negotiated agreement, this demand has been placed front and center. A couple of other examples, just to illustrate the preposterous nature of the demand: Has anyone ever asked the Catholics of Ireland to recognize the right of Ulster, or Northern Ireland, to exist as a “Protestant state”? Would we recognize the right of any state to exist as a “Hindu state”? As a “Muslim state”? Just to pose the question is to expose its nature.
But, maybe we are not talking about “Jewish state” as a state affiliated to the Jewish religion. Maybe we are talking about a state that is defined by the dominant ethnicity. In that case, the position does not get any better.
...we have had our fill of states whose raison d'etre is to preserve ethnic superiority and domination. One does not have to refer to the late unlamented “Aryan state”. Within recent memory, we had white-supremacist Rhodesia and apartheid South Africa. Whatever limits there are to analogies from and to these white supremacist regimes, we have learned that states that define themselves with reference to the domination of one ethnic group cannot claim legitimacy.
Israel and its allies insist that the Palestinian victims of Zionism must “recognize Israel as a Jewish state with a Jewish majority.” No one seems concerned about the fact that this ultimatum flies in the face of elementary democratic values regarding human equality and human rights. Israel’s backers seek to legitimize that which is illegitimate by any standard of democracy.
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