Comments for The Real News Network - Historical amnesia and Gaza »
Posted By jovial 11 months, 3 weeks ago in Political NewsSeveral days into Israel's military operation in Gaza, The Real News speaks to Phyllis Bennis about the conflict. After giving a brief background on the events that led to the invasion of the Gaza Strip, Phyllis explains the various ways in which the United States facilitates Israel's activities. According to Phyllis, it is the unquestioning military and political support from Washington that makes Israel's actions possible.
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jovial11 months, 3 weeks ago
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Phyllis Bennis is a Senior Analyst at the Institute for Policy Studies in Washington DC. She is the author of Before and After: US Foreign Policy and the September 11 Crisis and Challenging Empire: How People, Governments, and the UN Defy US Power.
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SandmonsterComment removed: Hard Banned5 Replies
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AnteUp11 months, 3 weeks ago
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Jovial ~
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Many thanks for this submittal. What I wouldn't give to be able to hear
an intelligent discussion by Ms. Bennis, and others, on cable news!
My PBS TV station shows squat - like old Lawrence Welk shows! - maybe
I need to pull my support and send it to the Real News? I would LOVE to
see this type of news presented on television - and available to educate more
citizens - on a daily basis.................it would be a better world if we could
stuff the "agendas" and get to the facts more often. -
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hyperbola11 months, 3 weeks ago
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The place where one has to start is the late 19th century when the racist, colonial, totalitarian askenazi zionists from eatern europe began their program of ethnic cleansing in Palestine.
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Silence on Gaza is Complicity - We’re All War Criminals Now
The conflict causing this violence is not centuries old. Nor is it too complex to address. Prior to 1900, Jews and Palestinians lived together in Palestine for generations without the extreme levels of hatred and violence which now exist. With the advent of Zionism, the political movement to establish a Jewish state in all of historic Palestine, tensions began to escalate. The leaders of the Zionist movement sought to control more and more of what they considered to be land promised to them by God. In 1947-48, the violent ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from their homeland by Zionist militias and the creation of the Jewish state of Israel began the conflict in earnest.
Since then, Israel’s continued seizure of Palestinian land through the establishment of illegal settlements in the West Bank has accelerated the aggression. In addition, Israel has refused to abide by UN resolution 194 which guarantees Palestinians the right of return to or compensation for lands taken from them during the war in 1947-48. As a result of that war and the 1967 war Israel expanded well beyond the borders alloted to it by the original partition of Palestine and has been in violation of the Geneva Conventions as well as the terms of the original United Nations partition plan since its inception.
Though rarely if ever spoken about in any media source, the real reason for the conflict in Palestine is not Jews or Palestinians, it is the Zionist colonization of Palestine. Zionism, a virulent form of ethnic nationalism, fosters a culture of exclusivity and entitlement within Israeli society. Jews are “The Chosen People” living in “The Promised Land.” These inherently racist attitudes create an atmosphere which legitimizes collective punishment and human rights abuses against Palestinians simply because they are not Jews. Jewish lives are valued more than Palestinian lives. This attitude was epitomized by the statement of extreme right wing Israeli Rabbi, Eliyah, in April of 2008. “The life of one yeshiva boy is worth more than the lives of 1,000 Arabs."-
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hyperbola11 months, 3 weeks ago
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The stated goal of Zionism has always been and continues to be the expulsion of the Palestinians and the colonization of all of Palestine, not just the area which currently is Israel. This is a fact, not idle supposition. In his book, The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine, Ilan Pappe, an Israeli Jewish historian, gives a well-documented account of the brutally orchestrated removal of Palestinians from their lands and the systematic plan for the ongoing colonization of Palestine. Pappe uses Israel's own archives to support these facts....
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Simply put, Israel is colonizing Palestine. Its Zionist founders always intended to achieve this end, and the current regime has no intention of sidelining that plan. Any other claim made by the government of Israel is pure guile. And this deception has been perpetrated with funding and encouragement from successive United States administrations since 1947. Indeed, none of Israel’s current illegal agression would be taking place without the approval of the United States along with the massive amounts of military aid we provide. This is the history of the current conflict which we are not allowed to hear. Not because it is too complicated for us to understand, but because it is too offensive to the sensibilities of those who blindly support Israel.
The situation in Palestine, along with many of the violent conflicts in the world, is nothing more than a symptom of the disease that is U.S. Empire. Gaza is just one more bloody scene in an ongoing imperial nightmare of death and destruction. If we want to stop the senseless killing taking place in Gaza, Iraq, Afghanistan and so many the other places, we must stand up and say no. Not just to the acts themselves, but to the fetid imperialist jugernaut which exports and cultivates them. Until we disrupt this cycle of corporate power mongering and violent militarism by refusing to participate in it, we have only ourselves to blame for the deaths of the innocent men, women and children who are the targets of our bombs. The blood is on your hands and mine. We are all war criminals now.
http://www.propeller.com/story/2009/01/06/silence-...-
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drpolyphemus11 months, 3 weeks ago
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Gaza is the worlds largest concentration camp. I can't see how a people that experienced a genocide can perpetrate one against another people.
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Why should Palestinians have to pay for the atrocities of Europe against the Jewish people. They had no involvement. There is no history of animosity.
Palestinians were Christians, Jews and Muslims living in harmony before the occupation and the genocide.
The definition of GENOCIDE according to International law is the following
Israel's treatment of Palestinians satisfies 4 out the 5 possible definitions . Any SINGLE ONE of which constitutes genocide.
Excerpt from the Convention on the Prevention and
Punishment of Genocide
"Article II: In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
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hyperbola11 months, 3 weeks ago
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As one contemplates the parallels between Nazi ideology ("Aryan master race", "subhumans", "lebensraum for the Aryan master race", and "ethnic cleansing / genocide for the subhumans") and zionist ideology ("master race", "subhumans", "living space fo the master race" and"ethnic cleansing / genocide for the subhumans"), one should remember two things:
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1. The zionists admired and explicitly collaborated with the Nazis, wanting to produce a similar system in Palestine and offering to fight in WWII on the Nazi side (as this american jew documents).
51 Documents:
Zionist Collaboration with the Nazis
http://www.counterpunch.org/brenner1223.html
2. Moral, ethical jews abandoned zionism in the early 20th century because they knew it involved ethnic cleansing.
JEWISH CRITICISM OF ZIONISM
... Israel Zangwill, one of Herzl's earliest and strongest supporters, eventually turned against the idea of establishing a Jewish state in Palestine. Ironically it was Zangwill who coined the phrase "a land without a people for a people without a land." It was this phrase that became the potent rallying call for Zionist settlement in Palestine.14
It was not until 1904 that Zangwill realized that there was a fundamental problem with the Zionist program. In a speech given in New York in that year he explained:
There is. . . a difficulty from which the Zionist dares not avert his eyes, though he rarely likes to face it. Palestine proper has already its inhabitants. The pashalik of Jerusalem is already twice as thickly populated as the United States, having 52 souls to every square mile, and not 25 percent of them Jews; so we must be prepared either to drive out by the sword the tribes in possession as our forefathers did, or to grapple with the problem of a large alien population, mostly Mohammedan.. . . This is an infinitely graver difficulty than the stock anti-Zionist taunt that nobody would go to Palestine if we got it. . . .15
Zangwill and many other leading Zionists split from the movement in 1905 ...
http://www.mepc.org/journal/9012_corrigan.asp
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Radiofreeeuropa11 months, 3 weeks ago
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For me the question addressed here "where do you start the clock?" has always been the bone of contention. I don't have an honest answer, yet regardless the violence must stop. I understand it- if your son or father were killed by a group of people how can you be expected to NOT hate them, retaliate?
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Yet no one gains anything through the violence.
Somehow, some way, it must stop.
All I can say is Ghandi and Martin Luther King won their wars.
And the reverberations are still being felt today.
Napoleon lost his.
There is more to be learned from Gandhi than from Napoleon.-
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Candida11 months, 3 weeks ago
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Here is an Oxford professor, who reviews the whole history. It appears that he has no trouble to decide who the real victim is.
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"As always, mighty Israel claims to be the victim of Palestinian aggression but the sheer asymmetry of power between the two sides leaves little room for doubt as to who is the real victim."
Avi Shlaim
http://www.propeller.com/story/2009/01/06/avi-shla...
He also has some suggestions on how the problem could be solved. Unfortunately they involve some compromises on the part of Israel, so his suggestions are not likely to be followed.-
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CaptainLucid11 months, 3 weeks ago
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I don't buy this crap about the disparity of power having anything to do with victimhood. One time I was frisbee golfing with some friends and a couple little craps came out and threw rocks at our faces, talked crap, and flashed their sorry ass shanks in our faces. The only reason those bastards left walking was because I had weed on me and didn't want a situation. A week later one of the bastards rode into the parking lot of the grocery store I worked in college. He looked at me and we recognized each other and I told him in ruder terms to F off or die. He looked shocked for a moment then rode off on his bike. I could have just bashed his face in both times but I held back. What I want to know is am I a victim like Israel because I was attacked or did I somehow victimize some little bastards when I told them to put their wannabe shanks away and leave me alone.
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CaptainLucid11 months, 3 weeks ago
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No because he got on his bike and rode off. By the way a few days later the crap walked into the store so I kept an eye on him. So did the store cop. He left the store with a pair of shiny bracelets on his wrists. I am smart which is why I didn't bash him the first time because I didn't want any cops asking why some bastard is bleeding next to me because I didn't want them asking questions that could lead to the bag of weed in my pocket and this was IL not CA where I have my doctors letter. I had already been busted once for posession but beat the charges due to lack of evidence even though they hauled away a box full of my pipes and bongs. When there is a problem the first thing I do is survey the scene to understand the accepted level of force. Whether I am taking on a few of the guys who booted me from the frat I briefly pledged or staring down a crack gang because one of those bitches thinks her hands can come in contact with my wallet. Once we all agreed by mutual assent by eye contact that no one wants to pull a weapon or throw a punch I was playing a grip game with a crazy bitch and my wallet. I kept my wallet.
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splitrch11 months, 3 weeks ago
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Hi Candida,
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I read this in today's L.A. Times. It was written by an Israeli. What do you think?
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-keret7-2...-
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Candida11 months, 3 weeks ago
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I agree with the article that proportionality is not the crux of the problem.
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FTA: "The motives of vengeance, which drive us to kill those who have killed people we love, are completely irrational, even if we try to wrap them in rational packaging. We exact vengeance because we hate and are hurting, not because we excel in mathematics and logic."
It also asks how many bombs Israel should have dropped and how many deaths would be acceptable. To both I would say: none. No amount of bombing will solve this problem. As the woman in the video clip of this thread says, you can't bomb your way to peace. Only when they finally start to deal with the root of the problem, which is the dispossession and oppression of the Palestinians, will there be any hope for a solution.
I saw a report on CNN (Anderson Cooper) last night from Sderot. The reporter spent some time with the locals in a bunker during a rocket attack. It was crowded, but they were safe. A rocket hit nearby, and they all ran out to see what had happened and to offer help if needed. There was some damage, but no injuries or death. Among the people on the scene was a young girl, a photography student, taking pictures of the damage, and the reporter interviewed her.
He asked whether she approved of the current Israeli raid on Gaza, and she said: "No." Surprised, the reporter asked why not when they are shooting at her and could have killed her. I don't have the exact quote, but she said something like: "Yes, but we have our shelters and our warning system. Over there, they have nothing." So what should Israel have done, the reporter asked. "Citizens should talk to each other," was her answer. She admitted that she is in the minority with this view, but I think if more people thought like her, the situation wouldn't be so hopeless.-
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splitrch11 months, 3 weeks ago
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Yeah, the whole situation is terrible. I don't know what can bring about peace other than the absolute desire for it. I firmly believe that what we all share in common far outweighs the few differences among us. It's too bad we focus on the differences rather than our commonalities. If we could physically feel each others' pain this would all come to a quick end.
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Candida, there are no demons, only victims.
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MRCOFFEECAKE11 months, 3 weeks ago
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Actually Ghandi didn't really win.
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But that aside, he certainly made for better opportunity.
This is a different world now. The battle is no longer just for religious freedom.
The battle now is for power, land and oil..
There needs to be an international; mediator.
Jews need their land and freedom and Arabs/Muslims need their sovereignty.
The two goals do not need to be conflicting if they have leadership that can be committed to honestly brokering a deal.
You need a Jew who sees the Muslim point of view and a Muslim who understands the Holocaust.-
fiftynineComment removed: Hard Banned
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hyperbola11 months, 3 weeks ago
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There are many such Israelis coffee.
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Why Israeli Anti-Zionists do not recognize the right of the State of Israel to exist as a Jewish state
In recent times, the demand has been raised, by representatives of the State of Israel, and by its supporters abroad, to recognize the State of Israel’s “right to exist as a Jewish state”. I am told that this demand is a debater's trick that was invented by Henry Kissinger several years ago. Be that as it may, what, if anything, is wrong with this demand?
If the goal is a negotiated peace agreement, or treaty, there is no need for recognition of “the right of the State of Israel to exist as a Jewish state”. If the goal is to sabotage the possibility of a negotiated agreement, this demand has been placed front and center. A couple of other examples, just to illustrate the preposterous nature of the demand: Has anyone ever asked the Catholics of Ireland to recognize the right of Ulster, or Northern Ireland, to exist as a “Protestant state”? Would we recognize the right of any state to exist as a “Hindu state”? As a “Muslim state”? Just to pose the question is to expose its nature.
But, maybe we are not talking about “Jewish state” as a state affiliated to the Jewish religion. Maybe we are talking about a state that is defined by the dominant ethnicity. In that case, the position does not get any better.
...we have had our fill of states whose raison d'etre is to preserve ethnic superiority and domination. One does not have to refer to the late unlamented “Aryan state”. Within recent memory, we had white-supremacist Rhodesia and apartheid South Africa. Whatever limits there are to analogies from and to these white supremacist regimes, we have learned that states that define themselves with reference to the domination of one ethnic group cannot claim legitimacy.
Israel and its allies insist that the Palestinian victims of Zionism must “recognize Israel as a Jewish state with a Jewish majority.” No one seems concerned about the fact that this ultimatum flies in the face of elementary democratic values regarding human equality and human rights. Israel’s backers seek to legitimize that which is illegitimate by any standard of democracy.
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blowback11 months, 3 weeks ago
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Enabling is not a priori for peace.
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Statehood, autonomy and land are.
> Hamas: Ceasefire for return to 1967 border
Top Hamas official Mahmoud al-Zahar tells CNN ‘long-term truce’ possible if Israel withdraws to pre-1967 borders, releases Palestinian prisoners; as to possibility Hamas would renounce terror, Zahar says, ‘Israel is killing people and children and removing our agricultural system - this is terrorism’
Yitzhak Benhorin Published: 01.30.06, 08:17
Until Israel says what its final borders will be, Hamas will not say whether it will ever recognize Israel, Zahar said. "If Israel is ready to tell the people what is the official border, after that we are going to answer this question."
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3207845,... -
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PsychoHosebeastComment removed: Spammer, Abusive4 Replies
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rightfromwrong11 months, 3 weeks ago
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it is true that if the USA took a neutral stance in the middle east...Israel would have to abide by the UN resolutions.
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The USA continues to give billions in aid to Israel and carte blanche on weapons(free)and the latest technology.
Hardly a just policy on the part of the USA-
Locky12Comment removed: Spammer, Abusive57 Replies
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silvergator11 months, 3 weeks ago
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According to Ms. Bennis,if mexicans started showering rockets on Texas and California,The US should refrain from attacks on mexico and understand that Texas and California used to be part of Mexico and no doubt the issue should be submitted to the UN.
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crghss11 months, 3 weeks ago
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No it's not, the lines on maps all over the world have changed over time. Europe fought wars for years until after WWII. They had enough of fighting drew up the boundaries and have had peace ever since. Except for a few Muslim terrorist over the years. Do you think the boundaries of France are the same today as 300 years ago? Or China, Russia, African countries? No. People settle upon borders and try and live in peace.
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But unfortunately for the Palestinians they are the proxy army for Muslim Arabs to exercise their hate on Jew. Every time peace seems near Iran sends its mercenaries, Hamas, to cause trouble. Hezbollah attacks when Israel is ready to sigh any peace deal. Why? Because the Mullah’s can’t allow Arabs to be dragged into the 21st century. They have to keep the Middle East in the past or they lose power and are marginalized. With out an enemy the people of Iran, Yemen, and Syria would want freedom and prosperity. Their leaders can’t have that. Because it would be the end for them.-
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dissent11 months, 3 weeks ago
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"People settle upon borders and try and live in peace."
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and that's exactly what the problem is here!
israel keeps settling on and inside palestinian borders which leaves the palestinians very unsettled! and very little else..... :|
here's the proof
http://www.sott.net/image/image/9591/israel-palest...-
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CaptainLucid11 months, 3 weeks ago
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No, the problem is that Israel should have kicked the palestinians out completely because under international law the west bank and gaza belongs to Israel. Israel tried to make peace and help the palestinians and look what that got them.
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CaptainLucid11 months, 3 weeks ago
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If you win a war you decide what happens to the land. The United States understands this rule very well. Unfortunately someone should have informed the palestinians a few wars ago. If we would have just kicked them out of gaza once we wouldn't have this problem now.
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dissent11 months, 3 weeks ago
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that's not international law, that's brute force. and yes, the united states does understand brute force, as does israel........ and as did saddam hussein
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unsurprisingly, there are international laws against it.
those international laws were meted out to israel by way of dozens of un sanctions. more sanctions than any other nation on earth. all of which we vetoed and israel, of course, with our full blessing, ignored-
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CaptainLucid11 months, 3 weeks ago
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"that's not international law, that's brute force. and yes, the united states does understand brute force, as does israel"
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We understand brute force but we also would rather work out a deal peacefully. The paletinians do not understand brute force or anything other than using their children as bloody camera props therefore they lose. It is also against international law to fire rockets with the goal of killing innocents. The palestinians have trouble understanding that concept too. So what if Israel racks up UN resolutions, you have to look at where they are coming from. If zimbabwe passes a resolution condeming Israel for not feeding Israeli children healthy meals call that a sanction. The only people who take that news seriously are the ones who keep stats. Understand it is far easier to pass sanctions against Israel than to feed the population of failure of a nation considering that failures of nations tend to be predominantly muslim,
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MRCOFFEECAKE11 months, 3 weeks ago
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But it is important to keep trying.
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You're right about changing borders.
Land can be retrieved and change hands as needed. Lost lives cannot be retrieved and there need\s to be a point where enough is enough already.
The US, Germany and a few other nations gave the Jews a homeland
through UN resolutions. it is about time for them to resolve this problem and back it with authority..
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slate11 months, 3 weeks ago
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It depends on the time line. The time line always starts at the point when it's most damning to Israel. Now I get it?
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Why not start with the time line when Israel's self defense against a league of Arab nations garnered that captured land?-
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MRCOFFEECAKE11 months, 3 weeks ago
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Right. the time-line is not measurable any longer because it is overlapped by
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responses from both sides..
The problem has long been that every time a Sadat, Begin or Rabin puts their hand out towards peace, some jackasses who want to derail it set off suicide bombs and the talks cease.
Those suicide bombers should be warned that their acts will accelerate the peace talks, not derail them as they have EVERY time in the past. -
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kobzikov11 months, 3 weeks ago
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"Why not start with the time line when Israel's self defense against a league of Arab nations garnered that captured land?"
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We can start at any point in time you like, but taking land that is recognized by international community to belong to someone else would still be illegal.-
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hyperbola11 months, 3 weeks ago
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Oh yes it is Slate. The prohibition against winning land by war was put into the UN charter by the US as a consequence of Hitler's claims to "living space for the Aryan master race".
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How telling that you and the askenazi zionist racists claim the same nazi ideology: "master race", "subhumans", "living space for the master race", and "ethnic cleansing / genocide for the subhumans".
Get educated before you open your mouth.-
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slate11 months, 3 weeks ago
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Stick it in your ear Hyper.
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You know damn well if Arab countries conquered Israel that you'd no problem whatsoever if they divided that land amongst themselves.
I’ve yet to hear you talk about one Israeli death in your posts or admit that the rockets sent into Israel are done with the intent to cause death and destruction each and every time they are launched. Is the kind of 'education' you are talking about the kind that only sees the wrongs of Israel?
Funny, you seem to be on the side of the Hiter types that want to see Israels and Jews dead, yet you try to put that label on me and others that support Israel.
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hyperbolaComment removed: Spam
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MRCOFFEECAKE11 months, 3 weeks ago
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No..not at all..
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What she is saying is that if the US were to stop all food, medical supplies, water and electricity from entering Mexico and the people were starving and ill, then the mexicans would have no choice but to use whatever weapons they had to fight back AND to appeal to the UN for the right to get necessities to their starving populace..NO??-
fiftynineComment removed: Hard Banned
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AnteUp11 months, 3 weeks ago
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Silly ~ they would have to be blockading all access to Mexico from the sea - from the
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air and from the border first to make your example relevant. Hamas didn't just wake up
one morning and think it would be a good day to shell Israel - there are REASONS.
Did you watch the video? Israel ratchets up the pressure, they make the continuation
of daily life intolerable and they sit back and WAIT for something to BLOW.
Who's gambling with the lives of the Israeli civilians - hmm?
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reallypsst11 months, 3 weeks ago
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The Palestinians cant survive with radical militants running the country,so long as hamas keeps firing on israel.the only way is to get rid of these fanatics so peaceful Palestinians can rebuild their lives and gain respect from the world,right now they are viewed as militants themselves and are incapable of a government that represents the majority of Palestinians!
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jovial11 months, 3 weeks ago
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And to use overwhelming military power against their country is the answer? To destroy their infrastructure and make their entire population suffer. To make them eat animal feed and feed it to their children. To remove access to medical supplies and electricity and water. To deny them a passport, or means to freely go from one part of Palestine to the other. To submit their women to humiliating body and cavity searches when they go through numerous Israeli checkpoints. To strip them of all human dignity until they accept peace in the terms that are given. To ignore their elected government and kill their leaders with deadly airstrikes. To have carte blanche power to attack or kill Palestinians with weapons provided by America and free use of a U.S. veto to ANY country or UN resolution that tries to question the legality of it. Something is not quite adding up here. I don't see a solution. I see "tit for tat". Except the "tat" on one side is exponentially worse than the "tit". This may be a genocide before this ends, and we American citizens through our government are accessories to the fact.
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engineer11 months, 3 weeks ago
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If the Palestinians did not support Hamas and they used the military resource money to help the Palestinians, there would be no conflict and the Palestinians and the Israelis would be happy and at peace. The Palestinians have no one to blame but themselves for their losses. Israel retaliated. It reacted!!!
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jovial11 months, 3 weeks ago
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I understand that. Israel has a right to protect itself. In that volatile area in the world, the US should not be an indirect source of the military hardware. This makes us share in the guilt if Israel goes to far in it's retaliation. Israel is quite capable of handling this conflict by itself. How can we complain about other countries providing rockets and money to the Palestinians, and on the other hand we are providing bombs and money to Israel? At the same time the contributors on both sides of the weapons and money are saying they want peace. I don't get it. It seems as though there's something much more sinister going on here. The civilian's are just being used on both sides to keep this thing going. Palestinians attack with rockets, Israeli's attack back. The aid is increased by the American's and the aid is increased by the backer's of the palestinian's. On and on, a circle that never ends. Who really profits?
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dissent11 months, 3 weeks ago
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here's a couple of ideas why. 1) don't want to seem "biased". 3 billion to israel every year plus planes, tanks, bombs and guns. a couple of million in band aids to palestine.... now run along and play kids. 2) divide and conquer -- imperialism 101
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Candida11 months, 3 weeks ago
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engineer: "If the Palestinians did not support Hamas and they used the military resource money to help the Palestinians, there would be no conflict and the Palestinians and the Israelis would be happy and at peace."
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Hamas is relatively new,but the hostilities are old. How come Palestinians and Israelis didn't live in peace before Hamas?-
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slate11 months, 3 weeks ago
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Hamas is relatively new,but the hostilities are old. How come Palestinians and Israelis didn't live in peace before Hamas?
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They voted for Hamas because they have the same goal. To destroy Israel and Hamsa to them was the tool to get their wish.-
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dissent11 months, 3 weeks ago
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look at the map slate. it shows clearly who is destroying who
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http://www.sott.net/image/image/9591/israel-palest...-
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slate11 months, 3 weeks ago
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Ahhhhhh when a chihuahua decides to destroy a wolf what do you think the outcome is likely to be?
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So you deny that the rockets are shot in an attempt to murder Israelis?
Oh yeah once again how did Israel happen to gain that land again? unprovoked attack or land conqured from aggressors?-
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dissent11 months, 3 weeks ago
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my interactions with different posters are each according to the level of our rapport or interaction.
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i dish it out as good as i get or see done to others. as you may have noticed, i offer you, at least in my opinion, a relatively respectful and considerate tone. as ive said before, i have no bone to pick with you spade.
nor slate for that matter. i actually like him and i've told him so. it's just the nature of our exchange. just trying to keep the conversation lively :)
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slate11 months, 3 weeks ago
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wow, you're deep slate. looks like peace is not high up on your list of priorities
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Not one word about whether you think the rockets are shot in an attempt to murder Israelis? You try and claim you are 'neutral' about the conflict yet you never empathize with the Israelis.
Hmmmmmm yeah I'd love the world to want real peace. Peace is the top of my list of wishes.
However you spin as if Israel just walked in and took that land as you ignore the fact that Israel garnered that land as she repelled an offensive from several countries at one time that had in mind destroying her. The land was kept as a buffer zone from another future ground invasion.
I wonder, if in 1967 Israel had been over taken would you have said "spoils of war"? If Israel was now shooting rockets into the land taken by the Arab league and setting off suicide bombs would you magically have a 180 degree turn of your view of the situation?-
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dissent11 months, 3 weeks ago
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regarding the rockets.... i used the analogy earlier in a comment below that if you put your hands around someone's neck and squeeze you should not be surprised. so there's my comment on the rocket attacks. as for what harm they do? not much especially in comparison to the onslaught from israel and its collective punishment if not outright massacre of the palestinian people. although to israel's credit it did take a 3 hour break today after almost two weeks to allow some aid through.... and maybe have a bite for lunch.
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as for being neutral, i've never said that. i think i've been more than clear that i think israel is wrong. yes, israel did just walk in and take land. it still does today with its state-endorsed illegal settlements. it's also had dozens of un sanction telling it to get out, all of which have both been ignored by israel and vetoed by us.
if israel had been taken over in 1967? i would be arguing in israel's defense.
any other questions?
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Endoscopy11 months, 3 weeks ago
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ROTFLMAO
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Are you that ignorant? The Muslim Brotherhood was started in 1928. Hamas grew out of that terrorist organization in 1987. They did not like the way the PLO was going. When the PLO leader created a peace treaty with Israel Hamas started up and sent suicide bombers to hit filled buses. Trying to destroy that peace accord. Brother organizations are included in the list pointed to below. The significant thing about that chart of terrorist organizations is that the very large majority of them are Muslim. Explain that please.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorist_organizatio...
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AnteUp11 months, 3 weeks ago
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Fatah was CORRUPT! Hamas was elected by the Palestinians
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because they WERE helping Palestinians rebuild. They organized
social services and created stability where Fatah had given them
corruption and chaos. I would say that the Palestinians have now
paid dearly for trying to improve their situation using a Democratic process!
The great champion of Democracy - the USA - turned their back on them
and said - along with Israel - that they would not ACCEPT their election
results................and the residents of Gaza were punished.
Oh yeah - show us you are civilized and play by OUR rules - I guess
we didn't make it clear that they had to choose OUR approved candidate,
not their own!-
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dunkirk11 months, 3 weeks ago
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Good point, We insisted they have free elections and when they did we and we didnt like the outcome we ignore it. Its hard to claim democracy is the way to go there when it happens and we immediately refuse to listen to what the people there are saying.
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AnteUp11 months, 3 weeks ago
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dunkirk ~
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From the most current Newsweek:
http://www.newsweek.com/id/177840
A Plan of Attack for Peace
Excerpt:
Indeed, an Israeli source intimate with Olmert's thinking, speaking anonymously in order to speak freely, says the prime minister went into Gaza with a two-tiered set of objectives. The first was simply to stop the missiles Hamas was sending into Israel and to force a renewal of the ceasefire that existed until Dec. 19. Olmert's second goal, the source says, is far more ambitious—and risky: the prime minister wants to crush Hamas altogether, first by aerial attacks and then with a grinding artillery and infantry assault. The hope, however faint, is eventually to allow Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas and his Fatah government to reassert control in Gaza, clearing the way in the future for a return to serious peace negotiations. With Hamas out of the way, Olmert believes there is a chance that Israel and the Palestinians can put flesh on the outlines of a comprehensive peace plan he negotiated with Abbas over the past year.
Olmert's second goal according to the piece seems like a very painful
method of ELECTION NULLIFICATION. So, the Israelis are slaughtering
Gazans to bring them the leadership of Mahmoud Abbas? They HAD Abbas
- before the Hamas election victory - and just what type of success did they
have? What exactly did Abbas receive in return for being a "good" Palestinian?
FTA: "..put flesh on the outlines of a comprehensive peace plan...."
I think I have a clue as to just who's "flesh" will be used judging by the
actions of the past 11 days.
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Candida11 months, 3 weeks ago
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reallypsst: "The Palestinians cant survive with radical militants running the country"
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What country? You call this a country?
http://www.sott.net/image/image/9591/israel-palest... -
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hyperbola11 months, 3 weeks ago
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Rubbish psst. Hamas actually has done a great deal for development of civil society in Palestine. Why do you suppose that the zionists had to bomb a university. Here are some israelis who are not as ugly a racist as you. The most despicable behavior is racists in America cheering on death in Israel/Palestine for ugly ideology.
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Where's the Academic Outrage Over the Bombing of a University in Gaza?
Not one of the nearly 450 presidents of American colleges and universities who prominently denounced an effort by British academics to boycott Israeli universities in September 2007 have raised their voice in opposition to Israel’s bombardment of the Islamic University of Gaza earlier this week. Lee C. Bollinger, president of Columbia University, who organized the petition, has been silent, as have his co-signatories from Princeton, Northwestern, and Cornell Universities, and the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. Most others who signed similar petitions, like the 11,000 professors from nearly 1,000 universities around the world, have also refrained from expressing their outrage at Israel’s attack on the leading university in Gaza. The artfully named Scholars for Peace in the Middle East, which organized the latter appeal, has said nothing about the assault.
While the extent of the damage to the Islamic University, which was hit in six separate airstrikes, is still unknown, recent reports indicate that at least two major buildings were targeted, a science laboratory and the Ladies’ Building, where female students attended classes. ...
..the Islamic University is the first and most important institution of higher education in Gaza, serving more than 20,000 students, 60 percent of whom are women. It comprises 10 faculties — education, religion, art, commerce, Shariah law, science, engineering, information technology, medicine, and nursing — and awards a variety of bachelor’s and master’s degrees. Taking into account that Palestinian universities have been regionalized because Palestinian students from Gaza are barred by Israel from studying either in the West Bank or abroad, the educational significance of the Islamic University becomes even more apparent.
Those restrictions became international news last summer when Israel refused to grant exit permits to seven carefully vetted students from Gaza who had been awarded Fulbright fellowships by the State Department to study in the United States. After top State Department officials intervened, the students’ scholarships were restored — though Israel allowed only four of the seven to leave, even after appeals by Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice.-
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hyperbola11 months, 3 weeks ago
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How should academics respond to this assault on an institution of higher education? Regardless of one’s stand on the proposed boycott of Israeli universities, anyone so concerned about academic freedom as to put one’s name on a petition should be no less outraged when Israel bombs a Palestinian university. The question, then, is whether the university presidents and professors who signed the various petitions denouncing efforts to boycott Israel will speak out against the destruction of the Islamic University.
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Neve Gordon is chair of the department of politics and government at Ben-Gurion University of the Negev
Jeff Halper is the Director of the Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions (ICAHD)
http://www.propeller.com/story/2009/01/05/where39s...
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reallypsst11 months, 3 weeks ago
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The Palestinians cant survive with radical militants running the country,so long as hamas keeps firing on israel.the only way is to get rid of these fanatics so peaceful Palestinians can rebuild their lives and gain respect from the world,right now they are viewed as militants themselves and are incapable of a government that represents the majority of Palestinians!
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Spadecaller11 months, 3 weeks ago
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There is one haunting reality that gnaws at me each time I read or see George Bush Jr. justifying the wars with Israel and Iraq; I know that U.S. corporations provide many of the weapons, the missiles, the mortars, the rockets, the guns, and the ammunition for all the participants involved in the fighting, which Hamas, Hezbollah, and Israel use against each other.
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The idea of long protracted wars that have no possibility of a definitive solution -- are the perfect means for generating ongoing revenue for the warmongers machinery to stay in operation. The business of war preys on the hatred of bitter rivalries. The Iraq and Vietnam wars were never wars that needed to be fought, but they were sold to the American people by lies and fear mongering.
The Israeli and Palestinian people are also being exploited; not just by their militant fundamentalist leaders,or by vengeance, bigotry, and hatred, but by the corporations that profit from their fighting.
Did Dick Cheney and George Bush Jr. ever really care about weapons of mass destruction? Of course not. They care about making money. Does Bush really want peace in the middle east?
He dosn't give a rat's ass; he is a ruthless business man.-
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hyperbola11 months, 3 weeks ago
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Well Spade, it is revealing to see which people here were strongly against the Iraq war and strongly preached about the need for separation of church and state in America, but forgot all that as soon as it became a case of "if its my tribe, it can't be wrong" racism in Palestine. It is revealing to see many such people now cheering along Bush and his NeoCons. Sure seems to reflect a primary loyalty that is not to America and the principles of American democracy, but rather primary loyalty to a foreign country.
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Gaza: Obama’s Bay of Pigs
A counter-terrorist operation involving US military materiel and foreign troops is taking place before the inauguration of the next president, and there are some striking similarities between the Bay of Pigs and the Gaza War for the origins of both stem from the secret chambers of the previous administration.
Last Saturday, the Israeli Air Force launched its attack on Hamas via its aptly named Operation Cast Lead, a phrase from a popular children’s song during Chanukah to, “cast lead dreidels.” The dreidel is a four-sided spinning top, the favorite child’s toy during Chanukah. Sixty Israeli military aircraft including both F-16s and Apache helicopters are not dropping lead dreidels on the inhabitants of Gaza -- they are dropping high-tech 250-pound bombs provided by the “foreign aid” program of the Bush government courtesy of the United States of America.
Last June, President Hosni Mubarak of Egypt brokered the six-month truce agreement that began on June 18th and expired on the 19th of December. Reports in Israel confirm that military planning for the current operation began six months ago, at the beginning of the truce. Less than two months into the truce, the New York Times reported the US would speed up delivery of high-tech bombs to Israel. On the first day of the Israeli assault more than 200 Palestinians died making it the bloodiest day of the Arab-Israeli conflict since the Six Day War of 1967. Bush’s policy is now perfectly clear, Palestinians will suffer even more severe punishment than Operation Cast Lead via the IDF – the forceful re-occupation of Gaza as a last gasp of Bush’s neoconservative hubris.-
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hyperbola11 months, 3 weeks ago
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Against the backdrop of a new American administration preparing to assume power and make changes, Lame Duck President George W. Bush authorized the Israeli assault on Gaza by pledging US support for the attack. It should never be forgotten that Bush is a dedicated Christian Zionist who broke into tears when he was fawningly eulogized in the Knesset during his last visit to Israel in May.
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It now seems likely that the Gaza War will be counterproductive. Hamas will emerge more popular than before the US-backed Israeli attack. Five months after the failure of The Bay of Pigs, Che Guevara wrote a letter to JFK thanking him for the attack and stating that it strengthened the popularity of the revolution in Cuba.
This macabre scenario vividly recalls the Bay of Pigs, the ill-conceived assault on Castro’s Cuba planned in secret by Allen Dulles, the Director of Central Intelligence, and then-Vice President Richard Nixon in the summer of 1960. JFK permitted the tragedy to unfold, and he took the blame for the fiasco that was the most searing foreign policy scandal of his short term in office.
Today, Obama is facing the same gambit on the chessboard as JFK – a disastrous last gasp of neoconservatism threatens to scuttle his presidency before it begins. This is the first major test of Obama predicted by Biden. Failure to respond appropriately to this challenge will plunge the Middle East into a maelstrom that could very well consume Obama’s presidency in a Cold War over energy with American prestige on the decline.
http://www.propeller.com/story/2009/01/06/gaza-oba...
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Spadecaller11 months, 3 weeks ago
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Where do we start? A year ago, 25 years ago, 50, or 2000 years ago...I think it is an academic question for an historian to play with. Should we consult the American Indians for the answer?
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The question that concerns me more is: where do we end it?-
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Candida11 months, 3 weeks ago
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Spadecaller11 months, 3 weeks ago
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Candida
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"How we end it depends on where we start."
No it doesn't.
When a boat is burning and taking on water, why would one need to figure out how the fire started. Obviously, the time has come to jump ship and start swimming for safety.
There will never be an agreement on the starting date of any conflict as complex as the Israeli-Palestinian issue. But, we will sure hear a myriad of hateful explanations and the finger pointers giving it all they can.
Some people would rather stay in the burning boat rather than to give up their investment in vengeance and hate.-
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DeadXXXManXXXTalkin11 months, 3 weeks ago
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''Candida
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"How we end it depends on where we start."
No it doesn't.''
think you both are off a tad, if you think 'we' can 'end it' or make them adopt peace
we can't make people 'live in peace' anymore than we can force lasting democracy on people if they don't want it-
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Spadecaller11 months, 3 weeks ago
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DeadXXXManXXXTalkin
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Some of us are seeking solutions. BTW: the vast majority of Palestinian and Israeli citizens are opposed to the war and welcome the idea of an autonomous Palestinian state that would respect Isreal's right to exist. It is their governments that fail to represent their views. The issue is certainly complex.
But to characterize Israelis and Palestinians as people who do not want to live in peace democratically is not only incorrect, it is a false stereotype of two large groups of people. Yes, there are some who will remain hateful, because they are unable to let go of their past misery and bitterness.-
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DeadXXXManXXXTalkin11 months, 3 weeks ago
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''But to characterize Israelis and Palestinians as people who do not want to live in peace democratically is not only incorrect, it is a false stereotype of two large groups of people.''
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its a pretty simple observation: Hamas shoots rockets, Israel flattens buildings...hmmmm...someone doesn't want peace
you can interpret what I wrote anyway you wish, but when I said 'they don't want peace' I was speaking of the antagonism from both sides
To be more specific and less 'falsely stereotypical' I would have to name all the people who keep the hostilities going [excepting the standard of living in 'palestine]
and I don't know any of them summmabitches on either side
do you?
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Candida11 months, 3 weeks ago
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DeadXXXManXXXTalkin,
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You are right. We can't end it; only they can. However, they would have to look for the root causes of the conflict, and whether they find it depends on how far back they are willing to look. In addition, we, especially the US, can change the conditions in a way that would help it happen.-
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DeadXXXManXXXTalkin11 months, 3 weeks ago
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well I've found it frustrated finding unbiased histories, and reading half a page until I realize the partisan-ness. Tho I am intellectually lazy, I have studied the history.
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But what goes on over there day-to-day, the fear in Israeli and what it's like to be a palesinian in Gaza...I'll take a pass there
For a resolution...I don't think a 'we' or a 'them' has the answers, tho as I say above I liked the idea that Israel is looking to lock Gaza down like the West Bank...that makes sense to me [as in logical from an amoral perspective and making no judgment]-
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Candida11 months, 3 weeks ago
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DeadXXXManXXXTalkin: "I liked the idea that Israel is looking to lock Gaza down like the West Bank...that makes sense to me [as in logical from an amoral perspective and making no judgment]"
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But that statement does make a judgment. It says that it's OK to keep Palestinians in a cage.-
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DeadXXXManXXXTalkin11 months, 2 weeks ago
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thats more what I meant
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tho I was saying that I 'liked' the idea, like some people might say they 'like' In-it-to-win-it in the 5th with 3-1 odds and place a bet on him, when they think a horse is a winner
I liked it because it seemed likely
As for a peaceful solution....making Gaza like the West Bank will make more enemies for Israel in the long run while keeping her 'safer' from the enemies in closest proximity to her
connotation is a troublesome beast. 'like' and 'winner' have positive connotation...but there's nothing to like about that situation
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canadianrancher5711 months, 3 weeks ago
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Good point, I hope this doesn't sound like a statement from a fool but it is the deaths of the children and civilians that bothers me most and those who look back in time will never find peace, it is those who look to the future and completely disregard the past that will create peace.
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In your own history in the US. I have seen periods in the not so distant past where there was the potential for a real bloodbath (racial riots in the 60's) but because people on both sides chose to look to the future things have improved . The situation may not be perfect but in many parts of your country young people and even alot of the older generation has changed. I know there is a proper way to say this but I'm just not sure how to word it, so in my own words I will say just look at what your own country has done, It has elected a man of color to be your President. Which shows to me if people wish things to become better for all, it can be accomplished. -
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hyperbola11 months, 3 weeks ago
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Well Spade, that statement is commonly made by those who are apologists for askenazi zionist crimes against humanity in Palestine.
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The UN charter explicitly prohibits the gaining of land by war. This was inserted in the Charter by the US as a specific response to Hitler's claims to "living space for the Aryan master race".
Since Israel is a member of the UN, this clause applies to Israel.
It really is revealing to see which people here try to ignore that principle when it comes down to "if its my tribe, it can't be wrong" racism.
In evaluating that, we should also remember that about half of the population of Israel also feels that they are victims of askenazi racists from eastern Europe.
The Sephardi Question
A growing group of Jewish Israeli professors is challenging the legitimacy of the Israeli state from within. Many are Mizrahim, as the Sephardi Jews from the Middle East and North Africa are increasingly called, and do so from a distinctly Mizrahi outlook. In July 2004, for example, a poem appeared online entitled, "I Am an Arab Refugee":
When I hear Fayruz[1] singing,
"I shall never forget thee, Palestine,"
I swear to you with my right hand
that at once I am a Palestinian.
All of a sudden I know:
I am an Arab refugee
and, if not,
let my tongue cleave to the roof of my mouth.[2]
The author is not a Palestinian refugee but rather an Israeli Jew. His name is Sami Shalom Chetrit, a Mizrahi professor at Hebrew University in Jerusalem who, along with Mizrahi academics like Ella Shohat, Eli Avraham, Oren Yiftachel, Yehouda Shenhav, Pnina Motzafi-Haller and others has developed a radical critique of ethnic relations in Israel. True to post-Zionism, an intellectual movement that believes that Zionism lacks moral validity, post-Zionist Mizrahi writers believe that Israel has no right to exist as a Jewish state. According to Mizrahi post-Zionism, the Mizrahim, about half of Israel's Jewish population, are "Arab-Jews," who like the Palestinians are victims of Zionism. ...
Some of the adherents of this new Israeli school of thought now equate Mizrahi grievances with those of Palestinians. In an article, "Zionism from the Standpoint of Its Jewish Victims," a takeoff on Edward Said's famous "Zionism from the Standpoint of its [Palestinian] Victims,"[5] Ella Habiba-Shohat, an Iraqi-Israeli woman and one of the principal Mizrahi post-Zionist leaders, claims that, alongside the Palestinians, Mizrahi Jews are Zionism's "other" victims.[6] According to Shohat, Zionism is a white, Ashkenazi phenomenon, based on the denial of the Orient and the rights of both Mizrahi Jews and the Palestinians. Indeed, she argues, the conflict of East versus West, Arab versus Jew, and Palestinian versus Israeli exists not only between Israelis and Arabs but also within Israel between Ashkenazi and Mizrahi Jews.
[6] Ella Shohat, "Mizrahim in Israel: Zionism from the Standpoint of Its Jewish Victims," Social Text, Fall 1988, pp. 1-35.
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Endoscopy11 months, 3 weeks ago
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This fool keeps saying go back and stops in 1967. Lets go back to the Balfour document. Britain was going to give the land west of the Jordan to the Jews and the land west of the Jordan to the Muslims. That was legalized by the League of Nations. Then WW2 came along and after that the size of the Jewish land was shrunk. The two countries were set up in 1948. Immediately as the British ships were leaving the harbor the Muslim countries surrounding Israel attacked with the avowed aim of driving the Jews into the sea and killing them there. Keep in mind that some Jews have been living there for over three thousand years. More Jews had been returning to Israel for the last two or three centuries.
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The Muslim avowed aim is to destroy Israel and put a Muslim government in place. They have been attacked many times. What the Hamas charter says is the aim of the Muslims. Destroy Israel and no other solution is acceptable. Go and read the charter. It is on line.
This person made a big deal about the IDF making plans to conquer Gaza. All military organizations make those kinds of plans. Our pentagon has plans to defend or attack all kinds of places. They routinely redo these plans as situations change. So that was a red herring.
That person ignores what the people from Gaza have done under Hamas. They send out suicide bombers and missiles. That cease fire was a cover to dig a tunnel but that was found and Israel stopped the digging. Why was the border closed? They found missiles and weapons going in under cover of medical supplies. Also some suicide bombers came out of there.
This person ignores the history of Israel being attacked from the start of the country. Why.-
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willottica11 months, 3 weeks ago
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"This person ignores the history of Israel being attacked from the start of the country. Why."
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Why was Israel attacked from the start?
Because the inhabitants of the land at that time were not consulted. Were uprooted, and forcibly removed from their homes. You can trace all ill-will towards Israel to that historical moment. Rather than give away their own land for the Jewish people, the Allies decided to give away someone else's, someone else whose land they had no right to parcel out.
I have no answers, but I can certainly see why the Palestinians would be upset in the first place. I can also see why Israeli's would be upset about being attacked by Hamas rockets.-
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Endoscopy11 months, 3 weeks ago
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Muslim lies. The Jews were already living there. Some had been there since Moses led the people to Israel. Others started coming in the 1600's. There was a gradual buildup going into the 20th century. The part that ended up being Israel was very solidly the Jewish sector of the land. In the 1920's the Muslims could care less. It was all arid land.
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But then the Jews started irrigating it and made the desert blossom. Then they were jealous. When the war started the Muslims told all of the Muslims living in the area to leave while they drove the Jews into the sea and killed them there. Meanwhile the Jews were flooding into the land many of them after being driven out of Muslim areas. Some had to be airlifted out or they would have been killed. The Muslims were attacking Jews everywhere. Some of them had lived in Muslim countries for centuries. Then the Muslims talk about displacing the Palestinians. Survivors of the Holocaust were arriving. As the new Jews were arriving they were pressed into the army and given weapons and sent to the front. What a way to start a country. Fighting in order to be allowed to live. That is what each war that Israel has had has been about.
Many Muslims had left because of the warning of the surrounding Muslim countries. Some went back to their homes and the rest became the Palestinians. The Muslim countries refused to let the Muslims who had not gone back home to live in their country as citizens. Such warm hearted people. Those Muslims were forced into the West Bank that Jordan held and into Gaza that Egypt held. Until 1967 there were NO Palestinians. That name reared its ugly head after the 1967 war that the Muslims lost again.Jordan wants no part of the West Bank and Egypt wants no part of Gaza. Strange isn't it. The countries that held it do not want it.
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Candida11 months, 3 weeks ago
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Endoscopy,
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I have a few questions and comments for you:
"Immediately as the British ships were leaving the harbor"
Why were the British leaving? Why did they abandon Israel in 1948?
"More Jews had been returning to Israel for the last two or three centuries."
How can you "return" to a place you've never been?
"That cease fire was a cover to dig a tunnel but that was found and Israel stopped the digging."
It did a lot more than stop the digging. It killed six people within Gaza, thereby violating the cease fire.
"Why was the border closed? They found missiles and weapons going in under cover of medical supplies. Also some suicide bombers came out of there."
Israel can inspect everything and stop any suspicious shipment. By your reasoning, they should not get any food or medicine at all. How many suicide bombers came out of Gaza under Hamas?-
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dissent11 months, 3 weeks ago
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"The Jews were already living there."
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yeah, i know. here are the maps. take a look
http://www.sott.net/image/image/9591/israel-palest... -
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MRCOFFEECAKE11 months, 3 weeks ago
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The Arabs sided with Rommel and did little or nothing to oppose the Nazis.
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They hated the British so much that when the war was over they were seen as being on the losing side of the war, much like the Serbs who also supported the Nazi persecution of the Jews.
Lose a war..Lose some land.-
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hyperbolaComment removed: Spam
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hyperbola11 months, 3 weeks ago
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Well Coffee, with that you simjply show us that you are an ignorant racist.
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1. The Brits promised Arabs independence in WWi (including in Palestine), but reneged (especially in Palestine which was susequently offered to zionists, over the objection of British jews). Not surprising that they were not interested in being involved in another european war.
What is well documented is that european zionists were admirers of the nazis and Mussolini, proposed to set up a similar social system in Palestine, and offered to fight on the side of Germany in WWII (as this american jew documents).
51 Documents:
Zionist Collaboration with the Nazis
http://www.counterpunch.org/brenner1223.html
Furthermore, many Arabs tried to save jews when the fascists arrived in the mideast.
“Among the Righteous”:Lost Stories of Arabs Who Saved Jews During the Holocaust
... Satloff writes, that, “At every stage of the Nazi, Vichy, and Fascist persecution of Jews in Arab lands, and in every place that it occurred, Arabs helped Jews. Some Arabs spoke out against the persecution of Jews and took public stands of unity with them. Some Arabs denied the support and assistance that would have made the wheels of the anti-Jewish campaign spin more efficiently. Some Arabs shared the fate of Jews and, through that experience, forged a unique bond of comradeship. And there were occasions when certain Arabs chose to do more than just offer moral support to Jews. They bravely saved Jewish lives, at times risking their own in the process. Those Arabs were true heroes.”
http://www.acjna.org/acjna/articles_detail.aspx?id... -
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hyperbola11 months, 3 weeks ago
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2. Your knowledge of the Balkans is about as deficient as the rest of your knowledge - zilch!
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... When the Ustaše came to power in the Independent State of Croatia, a state established by Fascist Italy and Nazi Germany during World War II, its military wing became the Ustaše Army (Ustaška Vojnica).[4]...
... The Ustaše enacted race laws patterned after those of the Third Reich, which were aimed against Jews and Roma and Serbs, who were collectively declared enemies of the Croatian people[citation needed]. Serbs, Jews, Roma and Croatian anti-fascists, including Communist Croats and dissident Croat Byzantine Catholic priests[citation needed], were interned in concentration camps, the largest of which was the Jasenovac complex, where many were killed by Ustaše militia. The exact number of victims is not known. The number of murdered Jews is fairly reliable: around 32,000 Jews were killed during World War II on NDH territory. Gypsies (Yugoslav Roma) numbered around 40,000 fewer after the war. Of the number of Serbs who died, estimates tend to vary between 300,000 and 700,000...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ustashe
Indeed, coffee, Serbia still has jewish communities
Shira u'tfila
http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=R5NZH-6JeXI -
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hyperbola11 months, 3 weeks ago
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3. The UN charter specifically prohibits the gain of land through war. This was put into the charter by the US as a response to Hitler's claims to "living space for the Aryan master race".
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It really is amusing to see a zionist STILL chanting exactly the same slogans as the Nazis!
Israel is a member of the UN and the charter applies to it. If the zionists deny that, perhaps it is time to take this step.
Revoking Israel's UN Membership
The 1976 Nobel peace prize laureate, Mairead McGuire from Ireland, recently suggested a popular movement demanding that the UN revoke Israel’s membership. The international community now needs to put tangible pressure on Israel in order to stop its war crimes.
Not once, during the past 60 years, has Israel shown any intention of living up to the requirements stipulated by the UN, in connection with the country’s membership in 1948, namely that the Palestinians who had been evicted from their homes should be allowed to return at the earliest possible opportunity. Moreover, Israel holds the hardly flattering world record of ignoring UN resolutions.
It can be questioned from the aspect of human rights legislation whether Israel is a legitimate state. Established practice between states usually requires borders that are legally maintained and a constitution, neither of which Israel has. These requirements are also named in the UN resolution (181) Partition Plan for Palestine, approved by the General Assembly in November 1947. The plan was accepted by the Zionists Jews in Palestine but rejected for excellent reasons as unjust by the Arab states. Only decisions made by the UN Security Council are mandatory. Later on, Israel unilaterally laid claim to a considerably larger portion of land than that suggested by the UN.-
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hyperbola11 months, 3 weeks ago
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The eviction of eighty per cent of the Palestinians who lived west of the 1947 armistice line, and Israel’s refusal to allow them to return is the human rights argument for expelling Israel from the UN. Not only has Israel played the Partition Plan false but has, by its actions, thwarted the grounds – fragile from the start – for its UN membership.
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... Why does nobody ever comment on the fact that Israel’s prime minister never misses an opportunity to harp on about how important it is that the rest of the world and the Palestinians recognise Israel, not as a democratic country for all its citizens, but as a “Jewish state”?
What would we have said if South Africa’s Prime Minister, in a similar way, had demanded recognition of South Africa as a “white and democratic state”, thus de facto accepting the racist apartheid system that allowed non-whites to be classified as lesser human beings?
In the article The end of Zionism, published in the Guardian on September the 15th 2003 the Jewish dissident and former speaker of Knesset, Avraham Burg wrote:
“Diaspora Jews for whom Israel is a central pillar of their identity must pay heed and speak out … We cannot keep a Palestinian majority under an Israeli boot and at the same time think ourselves the only democracy in the Middle East. There cannot be democracy without equal rights for all who live here, Arab as well as Jew ... The prime minister should present the choices forthrightly: Jewish racism or democracy.”
The UN should use the word apartheid in connection with Israel and consider sanctions with the former South Africa serving as a model. Miguel dÉscoto Brockman, president of the UN General Assembly, conveyed this message at a meeting on November 24th 2008 with the UN General Secretary Ban Ki-moon present.
http://www.propeller.com/story/2008/12/12/revoking...-
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MRCOFFEECAKE11 months, 3 weeks ago
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American Jews and 99.9999% of Jews around the world have always despised Hitler and Fascism and Nazism.
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If you extract a few examples of Jews who supported the wrong side in a Jdas-like manner then you are basing your entire belief of Jews on .000001% of them.
That would make you very wrong.
Jews despise fascism and have always been victims of any government
that has been in power that was either fascist or communist/socialist,
so please stop saying that the TERM "zionism" means something that only you choose to define it as.
Your broad brush is missing virtually the entire Jewish population.
Jews just want to live in peace.. So how do you propose THAT, because with your logic all of Lyndon LaRouche's diatribes represent American politics..
HEY.. He doesn't..he's a fringe kook too!
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crghss11 months, 3 weeks ago
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DeadXXXManXXXTalkin11 months, 3 weeks ago
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that's what I think the current and perhaps many of the past hostilities have been about, crghs, Israel doesnt want to 'let them bring anything in' or to reach a point where they could attack Israel with truly effective weaponry, so the road to peace for them is domination and subjugation.
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and they are kinda doomed to follow it, because once you start down that road, you know that if you release pressure on the rottweilers neck, let him breath and gain his feet, your gonna get bit
what we're seeing the last 10 days or so is a reapplication of pressure-
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DeadXXXManXXXTalkin11 months, 3 weeks ago
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euthanasia
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slowly but surely, you choke the dog out
sorry you didn't like the analogy
but its the path Israel, with a little help from the pals themselves, has chosen
they know as well as anyone that if they let the dog they kicked around up, let the pals 'develop' and get industrial grade weaponry, whatever that means, they will have a big problem
so they're kinda stuck playing out a hand they in part dealt themselves
just to add something I shoulda added below,where I quibbled about 'we' and outsiders settling their conflicts, so far Israel has ignored international protest, and couldn't care less about 'we'
sanctions and embargoes, sometimes considered acts of war themselves, probably wouldn't deter Israel at this point.
sometimes events have a momentum all their own, and you get caught up in it
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Endoscopy11 months, 3 weeks ago
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Why were the British leaving? What a foolish question. The nation of Israel was created and the British were no longer in charge. So they pulled down the Union Jack and left.
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In case you are so ignorant Israel is the Jewish homeland. Some had lived there all along since Moses. Most had been forced out by the Romans in 70 AD. Until then the name of the land was Israel or Judah. After that the Romans changed the name to Palestine to rub the Jews face in it. It was named after the ancient Greeks who inhabited the shore, the Philistines. Jews have for centuries had a prayer "Next year in Jerusalem." Now they are there. They returned to their homeland.
How many suicide bombers were sent by Hamas into Israel? Well I googled "suicide bombers in Israel and got 1,930,000 hits. Does that answer your question. Go and read the Hamas charter.
You are so concerned about the poor Palestinians but you absolutely ignore the horrific things they have done and just dismiss it as justified. It is OK for the suicide bombers to go and blow up men, women, and children and to send missiles into cities but any retaliation is forbidden.
Israel did allow the things going in and out and kept finding missiles and other weapons secreted in things like medical supplies. So what it would take is for every truck, car, person to submitting to a complete search going in and out. That would be a huge mess. So they just closed the border. They found the Palestinians were using the Quran concept that war is deception. The Muslims and the Palestinians only acceptable solution is to destroy Israel and set up a Muslim country there. Their statement is that if Islam ever conquers a place that it must remain Islamic forever. Will they attack Spain nest. Islam ruled there for a while. Read the Hamas charter if you dare.-
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willottica11 months, 3 weeks ago
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Yeah, rather than slowing down traffic through the border, they closed it completely, because that's really the best thing to do. Who cares if people die because of a lack of food or medical supplies. It would have been messy to search.
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Dionys11 months, 3 weeks ago
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"In case you are so ignorant Israel is the Jewish homeland"
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Since when?
Palestinians lived there pre-post Roman Empire. Jews were, for the most part, pastoralists (Nomadic).
Or are you using the Bible again to "prove" that it's their land?
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MRCOFFEECAKE11 months, 3 weeks ago
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very well put..
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But being right has still not prevented them from doing some wrong things..
So, needless to say this is a no win scenario at present..
This situation cries out for a definitive international plan.
i would hope it would be led by the US , which can still occur before we lose all of our credibility.
After we lose more credibility we'll lose any control we might presently have also.
We MUST act! -
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hyperbola11 months, 3 weeks ago
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Well Endo, perhaps the most despicable people of all are those who sit in America and preach death of jews, christians and moslems in Palestine for ugly, racist ideology. Perhaps you should give your silly chants and slogans a rest and begin to learn from those in the mideast.
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Jews sans frontieres: Sderot Jews Condemn Gaza Attack
Despite the ongoing rocket attacks on their town from Gaza in the last several years, some 500 Sderot residents have recently signed a petition calling to stop the IDF operation in the Strip and renew the truce with Hamas.
The tragedy of Sderot is that nobody in Israel cares about the people of Sderot beyond the lip service to their utility as sacrificial lambs for the "national cause" (i.e. the cause of ethnic cleansing and apartheid.)
Well, some Sderot residents are stepping up to the task and speaking for themselves. Their petition calls on the government to keep the peace is here in Hebrew. Unfortunately no translation, but see my translation below.
the petition continues:
On the other side of the border live a million and a half Palestinians under unbearable conditions, and most of them want, like we do, calm and the opportunity of a future for themselves and their families.
We live in the feeling that you have wasted that period of calm, instead of using it to advance understandings and begin negotiations, as well as for fortifying the houses of residents as promised.
We call on the Prime Minister and the Defense minister not to listen to the voices of incitement and do everything they can to avoid another round of escalation, to secure the continuation of the calm and to work...towards direct or indirect negotiations with the Palestinian leadership in Gaza in order to reach long term understandings.
We prefer a cold war without a single rocket to a hot war with dozens of victims and innocent fatalities on both sides.
We ask you to offer us the possibility of political arrangement and hope and not an endless cycle of blood.
This petition has been gathering signatures in Israel since the 11th of November. Needless to say, it was ignored by the murderous office holders of Israel.
http://www.propeller.com/story/2009/01/06/jews-san...
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jovial11 months, 3 weeks ago
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http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/01/06/opinion/...
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dissent11 months, 3 weeks ago
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thanks jovial. that's one of the best articles with a practical outline for future peace that i've read on this subject. i agree with you candida, that getting the powers-that-be to act on this is not going to happen. but that's why people here, in israel and everywhere need to sit up, pay attention and be heard.
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just in case anyone wants to take a shot at these points as "jew-bashing", here are the author's credentials.
fta
"Uri Avnery is a veteran of Israel's 1948 war, a former Member of the Knesset, founder of the Gush Shalom peace movement and winner of the 2001 Right Livelihood Award, often called the "alternative Nobel Peace Prize." His book "1948: A Soldier's Tale, the Bloody Road to Jerusalem," which was published in Hebrew soon after the 1948 war and was a bestseller in Israel, has just been translated into English for the first time by Oneworld Publications." -
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rimbaud11 months, 3 weeks ago
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"The number of refugees who will return to Israeli territory will be fixed by mutual agreement, it being understood that nothing will be done that materially alters the demographic composition of the Israeli population." Does this mean ...only as many Palestinians may be repatriated as maintains a majority of Jews? ...only as many Palestinians may be repatriated as are matched by Jewish immigrants to Israel?
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Many former Palestinians are now settled, and gainfully employed, in the Americas and the Gulf States: generous compensation will allow many Palestinians to stay, or move away, from Israel.-
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rimbaud11 months, 3 weeks ago
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Here's Thinker's take on this (from another thread):
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Thinker227 hours, 32 minutes ago
"The number of refugees who will return to Israeli territory will be fixed by mutual agreement, it being understood that nothing will be done that materially alters the demographic composition of the Israeli population."
I'm not sure where this statement came from but one has to consider the fact that the TOTAL number of original refugees does not exceed 35000. This means that even if all of them will be allowed to return into Israel the Jewish majority will be maintained.
Regarding compensation (generous or otherwise): according to the current Israeli law any person (refugee or not) who's property was lost in Israel has the right and is encouraged to bring his/her case to Israeli court and demand compensation. Upon proving his/her ownership of the property this person will be compensated by the market value of the property he/she had lost.
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dissent11 months, 3 weeks ago
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okay, spade, maybe i can finally pin you down to something more concrete than just evasive well wishes and vague good intentions since you say you "try to defend both the rights of israelis and palestinians".
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i've already said i have no problem with israel remaining a nation. are you prepared to concede that the palestinians now deserve a homeland, their own country? if so, where do you think that nation should be?
maybe these maps will help you decide
http://www.sott.net/image/image/9591/israel-palest...-
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Spadecaller11 months, 3 weeks ago
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dissent:
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If you were not so busy bashing the Jews and defending your own dogma, you would have known that I have always been an open supporter of an autonomous Palestinian state with one stipulation: acknowledgment from a Palestinian government that accepts Israel's sovereignty. I have repeatedly stated that on these threads.
Your comments about Israel's right to exist as a sovereign state have been more than doubtful. So, perhaps instead of pointing the finger at me, you should re-evaluate your own views.-
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dissent11 months, 3 weeks ago
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okay, i'll disregard you personal attacks, and accept that you agree that palestinian sovereignty is essential. my apologies if, as you say, you have stated it many times. this is the first i've seen of it.... but hey, you know me, busy with my dogma and jew-bashing and all.
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so.... how do you feel about those maps i keep shoving under your comments?
here they are again
http://www.sott.net/image/image/9591/israel-palest...
what land do you think palestinian sovereignty should border? 1967?
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crghss11 months, 3 weeks ago
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People, People, people. There is only one question. The only issue is the right of return. I think if Muslim Arabs accepted Israel and not demand the destruction of Israel through violence or the right of return this whole thing would be over tomorrow. But Muslim Arabs, amongst others, know if they can get the right of return for Arabs then they could destroy Israel. That is why Israel will never allow it.
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I say all out war till one side capitulates. As in any other war in the history of man.-
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EDWARDIII11 months, 3 weeks ago
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I had a dream that I went to Israel/Palestein for vacation and when I got off the plane there was nothing--nothing but corpses and rubble and a fragment of a wall. There was a message on the wall. It said "We were right!" But dreams aside, Hamas is clever. They take multiple pictures of dead babies (dead from whatever causes) and peddle them to the bloody press. You have to admire the creativeness of that.
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By the way, when a martyr gets his seventy virgins are they special heaven virgins or are they the souls of dead virgins? -
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Dionys11 months, 3 weeks ago
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Spadecaller11 months, 3 weeks ago
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dissent11 months, 3 weeks ago
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dissent11 months, 3 weeks ago
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http://www.ifamericansknew.org/
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it uses figures from a few different sources including israeli newspapers and government ministries-
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Dionys11 months, 3 weeks ago
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"We are all capable of ascertaining the credibility of your claims"
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Doubtful. Most people will post IDF and Israeli propaganda as fact when the very same information they're posting has been called into question by the main stream media. -
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dissent11 months, 3 weeks ago
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??????
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it's right in front of your face, spade, but here it is again.
hope you can see it this time :\
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/
i offer a link because it's actually supposed to be easier for all of us. ironic, huh?
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DeadXXXManXXXTalkin11 months, 3 weeks ago
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so anyway since I see by the time signatures that you may be around, I want to ask a question that bothers me.
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Putting aside the notion of whether there should be a Jewish state or not, how can, as the link you provided seems to do, Israel be seen as the aggressor in 1948?
Putting aside right and wrong, just from a pragmatic view, why wouldn't a then tiny nation, who had no choice but to take the somewhat unprecedented move of arming women and children for lack of numbers, aggressively attack 5 nations that outnumbered them so ridiculously?
was Israel the aggressor in 1948?
or did those arab countries refuse to accept the notion of a Jewish state, however tiny, and aggressively seek to wipe it out?
this is why I don't read a lot on the subject-too much bias, tho your link makes many good points'
Logically, I do not see why Israel, even if they believed Jehovah had their back and they still had the ark to use as a talisman, would attack 5 nations being outnumbered upwards of 100 to 1 in manpower.
so, not sitting and drinking my coffee in either camp, I have to ask you and anyone else who cares to answer, if they truly believe Israel was the aggressor in '48?-
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dissent11 months, 3 weeks ago
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i don't claim to be a historian, deadx. my interest is the injustice i see happening today, the oppression of the palestinian people that has been ongoing for over 40 years and their lack of human rights. with these concerns in mind, this, as this video points out, dates back to 1967
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EDWARDIII11 months, 3 weeks ago
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Dead people don't vote. As soon as they're gone they become irrelivant. If Israelies are smart they will press this war as hard as they can. They will agree to cease fires and violate them and agree to others. They will dare everyone and keep this fight going until every Hamas fighter is killed. Every one left alive will keep shooting and howling to the pacifist press.
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The numbers don't matter. If the Franks had killed half the Templars they would have had an endless fight on their hands. They were too smart for that. They wiped out the whole movement. There were some mourners and accusers, but eventually it was all forgotten.
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MRCOFFEECAKE11 months, 3 weeks ago
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Your points are all correct..Your solution is abominable.
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Please, if you can so intelligently describe the situation you should realize that war has never solved any issues..
WWII created Nazi Germany..
WWII created Communism..(well, for the most part)..but the Cold War
war has never ended anything, it just breeds more festering resentment.-
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hyperbola11 months, 3 weeks ago
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Actually nazism, communism and zionism all have their roots in 19th century eastern european racism, colonialism and nationalism. Two of the three have been largely excised from the world. The third is festering in Palestine despite the efforts of honest, ethical jews.
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Explaining the Long — and Largely Untold — History of Jewish Opposition to Zionism
A THREAT FROM WITHIN: A CENTURY OF JEWISH OPPOSITION TO ZIONISM,
by Yakov M. Rabkin,
While many in Israel and in Jewish communities in the U.S. and other countries now promote the idea that Zionism and Judaism are, in effect, the same and that opposition to Zionism constitutes “anti-Semitism,” the historical fact — largely untold — is that, for most of its history, Zionism has been a decidedly minority movement among Jews throughout the world.
Since its inception as a political movement in 1897, both Reform and Orthodox Jews rejected Zionism’s basic premise of creating a Jewish state in Palestine and having Jews either emigrate to it or, at the very least, consider it “central” to their Jewish identity.
An overwhelming majority of Orthodox Jews, unwilling to accept the restoration of a Jewish state in Palestine by means other than divine intervention, considered Zionism a false messianic movement. Most Jewish liberals and socialists, having accepted the faith of the Enlightenment, with its emphasis on optimism, reason and progress, rejected Zionism as a reactionary philosophy. ....
... In the forward, Joseph Agassi, professor of Philosophy at Tel Aviv University, notes that, “The author raises questions about the myth that Israel protects the Jews around the world and constitutes their natural homeland. This book rightly shows that this myth is anti-Jewish.-
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hyperbola11 months, 3 weeks ago
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Zionism gained support in areas where social and political conditions were unfavorable to Jews, particularly the Russian Empire. Indeed, Rabkin argues that Zionism has far more in common with the emerging nationalisms which swept Europe in the late 19th and early 20th centuries than anything to be found in Jewish tradition. ...
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... This instrumentalization of religion, writes Israeli historian and political scientist Zeev Sternhell, is not specific to Zionism but can be found in many varieties of organic nationalism propagated in Europe from the mid-l9th century onward. Rabkin declares that, “While keeping intact the social function of religion in order to unify the people, Zionism eliminated its metaphysical content. In the same way religion became a vital element of many varieties of nationalism; for example, neither the Polish variant nor 1’Action Francaise made any efforts to disguise their Catholic traits, Sternhell defines this trend as ‘religion without God,’ religion that has preserved only its outward symbols.” ...
Zionist leaders took as their model the nationalisms which emerged in largely undemocratic societies and seemed to have little understanding of the dynamics of free, open societies such as France, England and the United States. .... But few Zionists were aware of a countervailing reality, such as that of France, where in a slow and deliberate process, the state made use of an existing legal and political framework to create a nation. They had never experienced the kind of tolerant nationalism that could allow for a clear distinction between nation, religion and society — the model that enables large Jewish communities to thrive in France, England and the U.S. today (and where a substantial number of rabbinical critics of Zionism can be found)....
In Israel itself, the gulf that separates the secular from Judaism in all its forms has widened. Israeli newspapers are full of caricatures of Orthodox Jews, not unlike the anti-Semitic stereotypes current in Europe in the 19th and early 20th centuries. The Israeli historian Noah Efron declares: “This kind of hostility is not novel. Nowhere are Haredi Jews as feared and hated as in Israel. ...
The use of violence, Rabkin points out, was to be found among Zionists from the very beginning, against both indigenous Arabs and Jews who dared to challenge the emerging Zionist consensus..... Albert Einstein was among the Jewish humanists who denounced the Betar youth movement in 1935, describing it as being “as much a danger to our youth as Hitlerism is to German youth.”-
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hyperbola11 months, 3 weeks ago
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Terrorism has frequently reared its head among extremists within the ranks of Zionism. The bombing of the King David Hotel, the assassination of Count Folke Bernadotte and the murder of Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin are well known. The political assassination of Jacob Israel De Haan (1881-1924) is less well known... Rabkin laments that, “... the sad tale of De Haan reminds us that the terrorism the Zionists brought with them from Russia to Palestine in the early years of the 20th century would ultimately be turned against their descendants in the closing decades of the century ... Indeed, aside from the Hagganah, which was responsible for the assassination of De Haan, several armed organiz¬ations — such as Lehi and Irgun — perpetrated terrorist acts. Their leaders, Itzhak Shamir and Menachem Begin, went on to become prime ministers of Israel. What united these military organizations was the conviction that it was necessary to inculcate fear and to terrorize the adversary, all in the name of establishing a nation. Ironically, the same approach was later to be adopted by the Palestinian terrorists.” .....
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... Fortunately, Rabkin shows, more and more prominent Jews are rejecting such efforts at thought control. A veteran of American Jewish organizations who has taken a critical distance from his institutional past, Henry Siegman, regrets what he calls “Jewish community McCarthyism” and has said that for many Jewish organizations, “if you do not support the government of Israel, then your Jewishness and not your political judgment will be called into question.”
Professor Rabkin has written a scholarly work which brings alive for the reader a complex history which has been largely ignored. No one who reads this book will ever again believe that Zionism and Judaism are the same, or that Zionism enjoys the level of support among Jews in the United States and elsewhere in the world which it claims.
http://www.propeller.com/story/2008/11/19/explaini...
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KingofQueensS6011 months, 3 weeks ago
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heartofsword1980 , fat chance. As Bennis rightly reveals, Israel *started planning for this latest incursion weeks ago* before any rockets were fired from Gaza. These are systematic efforts by Tel Aviv to eventually appropriate that land. Plus, you don't cut off food and water to those people unless you are purposefully BAITING THEM into conflict. *Any* arguments on behalf of Israel in this latest conflict are moot.
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KingofQueensS6011 months, 3 weeks ago
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excellent work the "Real News" team - i have not heard anything like this from for eg. the BBC. in this matter they have forgotten the historical context - and sadly they do it (forget context) on a daily basis. - that is why you the "Real News" team are so important to us all. - many thanks and keep up the good work. tony - nottingham uk.
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justfair11 months, 3 weeks ago
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'As God's chosen people....all the way back to Abraham'...h'mmm. Aren't we all supposed to be equal in the eyes of God? If this does not fit the definition of being racist...? and if I recall correctly Palestinians too are descendants of Abraham!- same father, different mother - Hagar instead of Sarah
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Spadecaller11 months, 3 weeks ago
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typical Jew bashing rhetoric, justfair.
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The chosen people is a term that has undergone many interpretations by each of the sects of Judaism. Your comment says more about your need to condemnt the Jews for the term, than it does about your understanding of Judaism or Israel. Actually, the Jews of Israel today are less religious and most do not even subscribe to that phrase. In fact, most of us wish God would choose someone else for a change. (That's a joke.)
It so happens that in Reform Judaism and some conservative Rabbis agree that the term "Chosen people" refers to those who chose to believe in a monotheistic God to rescue them from dire cirumstances, hardship, and slavery.
Apparently though, you would prefer to find ways of bashing the Jews by calling all of us racist. That is what one would call bigotry.
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Hhussk11 months, 3 weeks ago
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I read/watched the article.
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My opinion is that Israel needs to reclaim the territories and push the Palestinians out.
"Peace" and cease-fires have accomplished nothing. They have only prolonged a battle. Obviously, some people think there is a way for Israel and Palestine to coexist. There is not.
Peace will only occur when one side claims the victory.
And this is the lesson: Do not put off today's battles, tomorrow. -
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justfair11 months, 3 weeks ago
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Great! As far as I know Palestinians chose to believe in a monotheistic God too! They are in historical reality your legitimate (step-)brothers and sisters and probably chosen by God to live there too! They have just as much right to be there as you!
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BravoSierra11 months, 3 weeks ago
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Begin with a simple premise...all humans have an innate drive to flourish and as such have the right to flourish. Take it a step further and you see that humans will fight for this right. The drive to self-actualize, to flourish is so strong that humans will kill to preserve fulfill this need.
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With that being the case, both the Palestinian and Israeli positions are immoral. The Israelis like to say they are wonderful people for allowing bare subsistance humanitarian aide into Gaza. The drive and right, as stated above is not to barely survive, it is the right to flourish. The founding fathers of the US wrote this into US law. It was the basis of the revolution...that humans have more than the right to exist, they have the right to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness.
Israel's policies toward Palestinians are a violation of the basis of the existence of the United States. Israel is a moral enemy to what we in the US say we stand for.
Hamas is no less immoral in their position that Israel should not exist. But, if they give up this one position, then their actions against a state that deprives them of the right to flourish become just.
I hope that the Palestinians will embrace Isreal's right to flourish...and thus attain the moral high ground and thereby embrace their own right to flourish. A simply twist in perspective and Israel is clearly in the wrong.
Both positions are clearly immoral. The US as an honest broker of peace would press for a win-win solution that allows both to flourish. The truth, however, is that this conflict has nothing to do with morality. It has to do with the pragmatic control of the Red Sea trade route and the two land routes of the Silk Road. It is about controlling oil and oil prices by using Israel and Palestinians as pawns and proxies to fight a war with Russia for control of the world's energy resources; and, to manipulate the price of oil for the benefit of OPEC and the US companies that are in bed with them. The truth is the US will never be an honest broker of peace in the region for two reasons. One is highlighted by the chokehold Russia is demonstrating on Western Europe this week. The Middle Eastern oil is the only thing keeping Russia from putting Western Europe under seige. The second reason is highlighted by the role and commercial ventures that Bush, Cheney, Baker, the Carlisle Group and others have with the Saudis. Their conflict of interest to keep oil prices high and thus pad their personal fortunes will cause them to always prevent true peace in the Middle East. They prefer power and money. -
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BravoSierra11 months, 3 weeks ago
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Begin with a simple premise...all humans have an innate drive to flourish and as such have the right to flourish. Take it a step further and you see that humans will fight for this right. The drive to self-actualize, to flourish is so strong that humans will kill to preserve fulfill this need.
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With that being the case, both the Palestinian and Israeli positions are immoral. The Israelis like to say they are wonderful people for allowing bare subsistance humanitarian aide into Gaza. The drive and right, as stated above is not to barely survive, it is the right to flourish. The founding fathers of the US wrote this into US law. It was the basis of the revolution...that humans have more than the right to exist, they have the right to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness.
Israel's policies toward Palestinians are a violation of the basis of the existence of the United States. Israel is a moral enemy to what we in the US say we stand for.
Hamas is no less immoral in their position that Israel should not exist. But, if they give up this one position, then their actions against a state that deprives them of the right to flourish become just.
I hope that the Palestinians will embrace Isreal's right to flourish...and thus attain the moral high ground and thereby embrace their own right to flourish. A simply twist in perspective and Israel is clearly in the wrong.
Both positions are clearly immoral. The US as an honest broker of peace would press for a win-win solution that allows both to flourish. The truth, however, is that this conflict has nothing to do with morality. It has to do with the pragmatic control of the Red Sea trade route and the two land routes of the Silk Road. It is about controlling oil and oil prices by using Israel and Palestinians as pawns and proxies to fight a war with Russia for control of the world's energy resources; and, to manipulate the price of oil for the benefit of OPEC and the US companies that are in bed with them. The truth is the US will never be an honest broker of peace in the region for two reasons. One is highlighted by the chokehold Russia is demonstrating on Western Europe this week. The Middle Eastern oil is the only thing keeping Russia from putting Western Europe under seige. The second reason is highlighted by the role and commercial ventures that Bush, Cheney, Baker, the Carlisle Group and others have with the Saudis. Their conflict of interest to keep oil prices high and thus pad their personal fortunes will cause them to always prevent true peace in the Middle East. They prefer power and money. -
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BravoSierra11 months, 3 weeks ago
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The best way to end this war is to develop a viable alternative to hydrocarbon fuels. Geopolitically, this conflict is about nothing except control of hydrocarbon fuels and the trade routes along which they are transported.
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Unfortunately, despite our political rhetoric, the US will never support true and sustained peace in the Middle East. We will support parity and the same low level of conflict that has been in place for the past 100 years since T.E. Lawrence was in Arabia. The reason is that US oil companies profit from the conflict and will never let a viable alternative energy source be developed and make it to the market as long as they can profit from oil, natural gas and the fight to control them which always seems to have the peculiar effect of driving up oil prices and profits for these companies.
What was it Randolph Hearst said about war...?-
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ChefEOD11 months, 3 weeks ago
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If only that were true. Mankind is prone to conflict; all recorded history is full of war and conquest with one group of people seeking to either destroy or enslave another. It is at times attributed to religion; occasionally about one monarch vs another but most often it is about land/territory. Tribal cultures in particular are predisposed to conflict and war over territory. This one has gone on for centuries because it also involves religion which crosses territorial boundaries and cannot be stopped by one tribe conquering another. We have two major religions that truly are in opposition to each other, both have very violent periods in their history; Judaism’s has been mainly over what would be “their” territory, Islam’s mainly over the forced spread and adoption of their beliefs.
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There will be no end to this until one “side” or the other destroys the other OR peace is truly FORCED upon them with violations dealt with quickly & harshly-
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BravoSierra11 months, 3 weeks ago
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The question is what comes first...the clan structure and values or the geography? Split-brain studies indicate that religion and other cultural beliefs are rationalizations that come after the structural problem and solution. The conflict is always about land, territory and resources. Religious and other codes just evolve to justify the behavior and socialize the members of society to the adaptive behavior. The problem arises when the behavior and thus the belief system is no longer adaptive. We can have democracy in the US because of our geopolitical dynamics. Islam was a logical extension of the culture of banditry along the Silk Road as the Polo family laid down the trade routes.
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Strategically, for the US and Western Europe we should become totally energy independent. Then the tribes in the Middle East can kill one another to their hearts' content without our being dragged into it. Or, they can cooperate and develop something the rest of the world wants to trade with them for. As it is, they have no skills, only resources. Until they have skills they will be pawns in the fight for resources.-
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ChefEOD11 months, 3 weeks ago
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Good on ya BravoS
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Many here cannot or will not see that about religion "and other codes". And I agree very much with the independency, in fact, in all things possible. Outside of that, our foreign policy needs to be such that anyone who receives aid in any form must adhere to some basics or they get nothing. Other than disaster relief it is way past time for the US to cease throwing money and resources at any who ask without direct and measurable benefit to the US. Individuals can of course give to and do with their own resources as they will but the government should not be in that "business". -
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BravoSierra11 months, 3 weeks ago
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I don't want any US military personnel to die forcing peace on the region. They can kill themselves all they want. It's sad, but it's their choice. I just don't want to have us dragged into this part of the world because we would rather keep shipping oil rather than make the area irrelevant to US security by developing an alternative energy source.
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DeadXXXManXXXTalkin11 months, 3 weeks ago
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nothing in particular to add, except maybe a nod at the word 'pawns' from above, which is really what so many of us are or become[at least intellectually-I'm guilty of falling victim to the endless rationalization and propaganda myself from time to time]
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stripped bare of religious ideologies and partisan rhetoric and rationalization and the like, I agree that the world runs on strict ruthless utilitarianism based on resources[of all kinds], and hence 'the little people' and their lives are spent and used as 'pawns'
and above it all[or below it] are the ones who just can't be satisfied and need more and more and take that using of people to new heights [depths]
anyway whether that made sense or not I can't say, but I mainly just wanted to say it was nice to read you again
fun for me to try and grasp politics from a more all-encompassing, broader perspective when I'm shooting my mouth off on these boards
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EDWARDIII11 months, 3 weeks ago
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Jews are race worshipers (not necessarily by doctrine but in fact). This is despicable, but does that mean they forfeit the right to self defense?
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The moood of the world is to support the rights of poor Palistinian 3d generation refugees. Hamas, however, has siezed the moral low ground by firing rockets, by using gaza as a launching pad, by shooting from school yards and inviting Israel to shoot back. We might have seen the successful realization of Palastinian hopes, but Hamas has distracted us with a war.
How does war serve their purpose? It wouldn't if they were isolated, but they have support all over the EU. Governments are afraid to interfere with their demonstrations. They remember the Paris riots. They remember the Van Gogh assasination. Soon US will have a leader who has anti-Israeli connections in his background. A multitude exists with the will and the numbers to lay waste to Israel. If it starts it will be an avalanch. There will be no voice of opposition or even reason in the Arab world. The Koran has a handy injunction to kill anyone who refuses to go on jihad.
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