Comments for American public backs Israel firmly in war with Hamas »
Posted By israeligirl1 10 months, 2 weeks ago in NewsThe American people are squarely behind Israel and overwhelmingly think that using force against Hamas is appropriate, according to a new McClatchy / Ipsos poll. 44% support Israel's use of force, while only 18% justified Hamas' use of force. 57% think that Hamas is using excessive force, while only 36% said Israel was.
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codgerpriceComment removed: Retracted by user59 Replies
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engineer10 months, 2 weeks ago
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hyperbola10 months, 2 weeks ago
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Big surprise coming engineer. Despite the censorship, Americans are seeing through the zionist propaganda. Most of us now say the US should NOT support Israel.
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George Washington's warnings and U.S. policy towards Israel
A new WorldPublicOpinion.org poll of 18 countries finds that in 14 of them people mostly say their government should not take sides in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Just three countries favor taking the Palestinian side (Egypt, Iran, and Turkey) and one is divided (India). No country favors taking Israel's side, including the United States, where 71 percent favor taking neither side.
The degree of mandated orthodoxy on the Israel question among America's political elites is so great that if one took the statements on Gaza from George Bush, Pelosi, Hoyer, Berman, Ros-Lehtinen, and randomly chosen Bill Kristol-acolytes and redacted their names, it would be impossible to know which statements came from whom. They're all identical: what Israel does is absolutely right. The U.S. must fully and unconditionally support Israel. Israel does not merit an iota of criticism for what it is doing. It bears none of the blame for this conflict. No questioning even of the wisdom of its decisions -- let alone the justifiability -- is uttered. No deviation from that script takes place.
that America must unquestioningly stand on Israel's side and support it, not just in this conflict but in all of Israel's various wars -- is a view which 7 out of 10 Americans reject. Conversely, the view which 70% of Americans embrace -- that the U.S. should be neutral and even-handed in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict generally -- is one that no mainstream politician would dare express.
In a democracy, one could expect that politicians would be afraid to express a view that 70% of the citizens oppose. Yet here we have the exact opposite situation: no mainstream politician would dare express the view that 70% of Americans support. Isn't that fairly compelling evidence of the complete disconnect between our political elites and the people they purportedly represent?
http://www.propeller.com/story/2008/12/31/george-w... -
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hyperbola10 months, 2 weeks ago
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So you like killing jews, christians and moslems (from afar) for a vile racist ideology?
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Anti-War Protests Grow in Israel
Israel’s attack on the Gaza Strip has prompted public opposition from anti-war elements of the Israeli public – and counter-measures from right-wing groups and Israeli domestic intelligence agencies.
Protesters across the country have turned out in larger numbers than opposed the 2006 war with Lebanon and some have clashed with police in both Arab-Israeli and Jewish cities.
http://www.propeller.com/story/2009/01/14/anti-war...-
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Edmar1410 months, 2 weeks ago
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In case you haven't noticed, the vast majority of the protesters aren't exactly fair haired. Most of the protesters seem to have a noticeable middle eastern aura about them. America, like Europe has a well established Muslim population, although ours isn't quite what Europe's is. Do you really believe that people on Propeller are that stupid? As for the anti war elements in Israel, that's what a democracy is all about- Freedom of speech. They're a small but vocal minority as long as the press recognizes them. What do you think would happen to pro Israel groups in any Arab country? Better yet, how long do you think Hamas would tolerate it? The average life span of anyone with a pro Israel viewpoint would be less than 10 minutes and you know that it is the truth. So go back to your Googling. You didn't leave a URL in this post.
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memestryker10 months, 2 weeks ago
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We saw a Palestinian woman in Florida scream to Jews they need a bigger oven.
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There is no freedom of speech in Arab countries, and they have successfully intimidated most of the others to adopt Sharia themselves on certain matters (the Mohammed cartoons, for example). Muslims can teach children to hate others, but if anyone so much as draws a picture of their religious founder, or focuses on women's lack of rights in Muslim countries, they kill him.
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slate10 months, 2 weeks ago
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Hyper, do you ever just write from your heart without all the same cut and paste info garnered from others?
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Do you really have no original thoughts of your own?
It's be though to be your love interest, getting one line professing your love then the 5-6 cut and paste anti-Zion articles written by others to seal the deal.
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slate10 months, 2 weeks ago
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All the pollsters have to do is call only those in New York, Maine, California, Connecticut, New Hampshire and like states and say it's a national poll,
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So when you do the poll in those liberal states and 44% of even those states support Israel VIOLA the nation may well support them.
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BTW since we all know that there is usually 20% that say they have no opinion when polled the numbers of pro-con is based more on the remaining 80% that actually gave an opinion.
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RothWelt10 months, 2 weeks ago
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Never in history has an invading force almost simultaneously waged a war of occupation and retribution by sea, land and air against an oppressed and understandably resistant population - one with barely shoestring resources to counter it. Not Nazi Germany against France, not France against Algeria, not Britain against Ireland - but only an artificially-created Jewish state against native Palestinians. .who will Gain Strength with this Effective .
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RothWelt10 months, 2 weeks ago
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In all fairness one must never generalize about "Jews" for some of the most courageous, ardent, vocal voices against Zionism and Israel's brutality are Jews themselves---in fact, much more so than the entire cowardly 57 Muslim governments who are just as oppressive to their own peoples as Israel is to Palestinians.
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RothWelt10 months, 2 weeks ago
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The (khazars)Zionists in the world are the biggest enemy of freedom of speech and freedom of the press there is. And don't confuse Zionism with Judaism. Zionism is a secular political movement that would do anything to support the state of Israel. Judaism is a religion. Not all Jews are Khazars Zionists.
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PsychoHosebeastComment removed: Spammer, Abusive
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jovial10 months, 2 weeks ago
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Some people might think that this is good. Dancing in the streets as people die. Have we not become like the people that we have come to disdain.
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http://www.news24.com/News24/World/News/0,,2-10-14...-
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hyperbola10 months, 2 weeks ago
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Not really. Time to take our country back from those whose first loyalty is NOT to the US.
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Israel's Humiliation of America
“Let me see if I understand this,” wrote a friend in response to news reports that Israeli Prime Minister Olmert ordered President Bush from the podium where he was giving a speech to receive Israel’s instructions about how the United States had to vote on the UN resolution. “On September 11th, President Bush is interrupted while reading a story to school children and told the World Trade Center had been hit--and he went on reading. Now, Olmert calls about a UN resolution when Bush is giving a speech and Bush leaves the stage to take the call. There exists no greater example of a master-servant relationship.”
Israeli politicians have been bragging for decades about the control they exercise over the US government. In his final press conference, President Bush, deluded to the very end, said that the whole world respects America. In fact, when the world looks at America, what it sees is an Israeli colony.
Responding to mounting reports from the Red Cross and human rights organizations of Israel’s massive war crimes in Gaza, the United Nations Human Rights Council voted 33-1 on January 12 to condemn Israel for grave offenses against human rights.
On January 13, the London Times reported that Israelis have gathered on a hillside overlooking Gaza to enjoy the slaughter of Palestinians in what the Times calls “the ultimate spectator sport.”
It is American supplied F-16 fighter jets, helicopter gunships, missiles, and bombs that are destroying the civilian infrastructure of Gaza and murdering the Palestinians who have been packed into the tiny strip of land. What is happening to the Palestinians herded into the Gaza Ghetto is happening because of American money and weapons. It is just as much an attack by the United States as an attack by Israel. The US government is complicit in the war crimes.
... Bush talked about connecting the dots, but Bush has failed to connect any dots for eight solid years. “Our” president was a puppet for a cabal led by Dick Cheney and a handful of Jewish neoconservatives, who took control of the Pentagon, the State Department, the National Security Council, the CIA, and “Homeland Security.” From these power positions, the neocon cabal used lies and deception to invade Afghanistan and Iraq, pointless wars that have cost Americans $3 trillion, while millions of Americans lose their jobs, their pensions, and their access to health care.
http://www.propeller.com/story/2009/01/14/israel39...-
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Edmar1410 months, 2 weeks ago
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Bush didn't respond immediately at the school on 9/11 because he was dumbfounded, to quote him. To take a call from a Prime Minister whose country is in the middle of a war doesn't take much thought. Nice try. We aren't that stupid. Keep that propaganda machine oiled. You wouldn't know how to cope if it ever broke down.
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Endoscopy10 months, 2 weeks ago
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Really have your head in the sand. About a year ago there were videos about a Muslim mother in Gaza celebrating the fact that her oldest son became a suicide bomber. She praised him and wanted the rest of her sons to do the same. It is only bad if they did not kill the hated jews with their death.
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memestryker10 months, 2 weeks ago
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I remember that. I think people need to come to understand that theocracy is poison and all countries based on religious doctrine need to let their religious basis go if we ever are to have real peace, freedom, and liberty.
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I don't mind electing anyone of any or no religion in the U.S. as long as they support the freedoms guaranteed by the U.S. constitution (or expand them to include even more people) and don't try to build a theocracy here, or entangle church and state in any way, or teach religious doctrine to my children.
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jovial10 months, 2 weeks ago
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Imagine for a moment you are a citizen of Palestine in the Gaza strip... Your government can't protect you and a military force is quickly approaching your city. Your city has been under relentless attacks from F-16's, drones, naval artillery, and tank shells. You can't leave your house or drive a vehicle or you will be killed. There's little food and water, and venturing out to find food is to take your life into your own hands. Your children stare at you, in the dim light of flares and explosions in the background. They are hungry, and you are helpless. Pieces of artillery shrapnel come crashing through yor window and you quickly tell your family to huddle close and stay low to the ground. The sound of explosions in the air and all around you sound like some crazy metronome out of a Alfred Hitchcock thriller. You pray..
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4I4_ISswtc&-
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tehranchik10 months, 2 weeks ago
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21pgHXBWG_4
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There are hundreds of these videos on line from all over the world - not just the U.S.-
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Shankari25Comment removed: Retracted by user
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jovial10 months, 2 weeks ago
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"Fury swept the British parliament on Wednesday following a statement by the British foreign minister David Miliband on "the appalling situation in Gaza."
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The Labour Member of Parliament Peter Kilfoyle asked the minister to "undertake to ensure that no arms at all go to Israel at the moment, given that it is guilty in many people's eyes of state-sponsored terrorism with its activities in the Gaza strip".
The Labour MP Sir Gerald Kaufman said: "In congratulating [Mr Miliband] on steering resolution 1860 [calling for an immediate ceasefire] through the United Nations Security Council, may I ask him what the international reaction would be if Hamas had slaughtered nearly 900 Israelis and subjected nearly 1.5 million Israelis to degradation and deprivation? Is it not an incontrovertible fact that Olmert, Livni and Barak are mass-murderers and war criminals - [Interruption.] Yes. And they bring shame on the Jewish people whose star of David they use as a flag in Gaza, but whose ethos and morals go completely against what this Israeli government are doing."
http://feeds.bignewsnetwork.com/index.php?sid=4537...-
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Edmar1410 months, 2 weeks ago
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Did anybody seem to notice the signs that the Protesters in London were carrying? If I were a member of Parliament in England, I too would be a little worried about the reaction of such a large Muslim population inside my borders. Especially after 9/11.
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Lincoln8510 months, 2 weeks ago
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Imagine for a moment you are a citizen of Palestine in the Gaza strip. For years, you have been taught to hate Israel and the Jews. So much that even toddlers are taught to hate these people as pigs. In any other civilized country, these children would be taken away by family services. They worship and martyr those that go into Israel and kill innocents. The whole thing is pointless, this land has always been the Jews going back to the time it was called Canaan. And even if it was not, everytime Israel agrees to a peace treaty, these people break it with violence and attacks against their own people. Israel even went into the west bank and forcibly moved their own citizens out of their homes to give Palestinians their peace treaty and more land.
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Then they still attack Israel. The problem isn't land...it is their existence. The more of the terroists and their families the Jews kill the better. These people are nothing but murderous race haters that teach their innocent children the same thing. I am loving Israel's punishment of Hamas and their supporters, just like those same sick pathetic people rejoiced after America's 911. I hope Israel continues to kick their a..s..there is no negotiating with psychotic people.-
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Lincoln8510 months, 2 weeks ago
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but your hate against Israel is not amazing either. If you lived there you would not continue to support the continued pussification of America by weak liberal men. The hippie movement died with Charles Manson. I don't care how many times you try to recreate the hippy movement...even most socialistscons don't believe in that .
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It is really sad. I continue to teach my children how liberal men do not have the capability to defend themselves, even if a rapists was to attack their woman. They would get scared and try reasoning...but in the long run...they get knocked out and their hopes and dreams are ruined. Time to wake up weak men! Quit contributing to the pussification of this fine country.
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Thinker2210 months, 2 weeks ago
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>Imagine for a moment you are a citizen of Palestine in the Gaza strip...
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The vast majority of the Gazans voted for Hamas and they can only blame themselves for the results. After all, one had to be a pathological idiot to vote for Hamas hoping that Hamas would bring peace and prosperity to the region. Unlike you. Hyperbola, Dionys and some others I DO NOT believe that most of the Palestinian Arabs are pathological idiots.
By the way, citizens of Germany voted for the National-Socialist German Workers' Party (N.S.D.A.P.) in 1932 and enjoyed the results several years later. Unlike the Palestinians the Germans of 1932 could not foresee what would happen to their country 13 years later. Still, the Germans did not blame anyone but themselves for the consequences of their votes. Unlike Palestinians the Germans decided to live in peace with others and today Germany is one of the most developed and financially powerful countries on the planet. So is Japan.
Palestinian Arabs could be living in a Mediterranean paradise in they've followed the example of the Germans and Japanese. It's unfortunate that they have other preferences.-
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cherev10 months, 2 weeks ago
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"one had to be a pathological idiot to vote for Hamas hoping that Hamas would bring peace and prosperity to the region."
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Perhaps they hoped that Hamas would fulfill it's charter and that the extermination of Israel and it's Jews would result in peace and prosperity.-
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Thinker2210 months, 2 weeks ago
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> Perhaps they hoped that Hamas would fulfill it's charter and that the extermination of Israel and it's Jews would result in peace and prosperity.
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This is what THEY have said. This is what THEIR LEADERS said. This is what THEIR CHARTERS say... but we're supposed to assume that they all LIED (in addition to being pathological idiots) and that in reality they've only wanted peace and prosperity for everyone but they did not understand that Hamas was not a Mother Theresa organization.
We're supposed to believe in such twisted tales because Dissent, Bubba, Jovial, Hyperbola and their ilk say so.
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Endoscopy10 months, 2 weeks ago
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Tell your garbage to the people that are living in Sderot. It was OK for suicide bombers to come out of Gaza which resulted in the blockade so you could cry about the blockade. Then with the missiles coming out of Gaza from the day the Israelis left Gaza you stick your head in the sand over that. Hamas can do no wrong and Israel can do no right.
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Hamas charter declares the absolutely only acceptable solution is the destruction of Israel. But of course you ignore that. You must have the view of hyper. Are you also a Muslim?-
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cherev10 months, 2 weeks ago
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"Then with the missiles coming out of Gaza from the day the Israelis left Gaza you stick your head in the sand over that. "
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I doubt his head was in the sand. More likely, he was cheering each Hamas missile, hoping it would kill a Jew.
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hyperbola10 months, 2 weeks ago
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How about we protest murderous racism?
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Gaza Slaughter Exposes Truth About Zionism
http://www.propeller.com/story/2009/01/12/gaza-sla...
Collective punishment is a violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention. In fact, Israel’s siege was a belligerent act of war. But the western press, including the US media, failed to report it honestly and now they blame the victims. The Palestinians, we are told, are responsible for Israel’s attacks upon them because of the Qassams. Of course, due to the media filter the average American probably has never heard of the siege, and doesn’t even know it happened.
...In fact, Israel’s military operation in Gaza probably has as much to do with political expedience as halting the Qassams. Israel’s leaders have resorted to violence in the past for temporary political gain: to boost their standing with voters; and the present Gaza offensive appears to be another case. It was in the planning for months and probably became inevitable after far-right Likud candidate Benjamin Netanyahu moved ahead in the polls. With Prime Minister Olmert’s Kadima party facing a tough uphill fight in the upcoming February 2009 elections, Olmert no doubt hoped to recoup Kadima’s chances by showing toughness. It is telling that Israeli voters will choose between the right and the far-right, another inconvenient truth ignored by the western press..
...it is remarkable that even though the US Senate just voted unanimous support for Israel many Americans probably still think the United States is not directly involved in the Gaza violence. Nothing could be further from the truth. The US is deeply involved. ... To describe all of this as a public relations disaster for the US fails to capture the reality. The international community was already alienated from Washington because of President George W. Bush’s self-proclaimed right to treat the world as a US free-fire zone. Continuing US support for Israel’s state terrorism is like throwing gas on this fire, and the temperature is rising....
But the slaughter of more than 800 Palestinians, as I write, in addition to more than 3,000 injured, has had one positive effect: It has brought the deeper issue, the nature of Zionism, into sharper focus. The question that Americans should be asking is how 1.4 million Palestinians came to be crowded into Gaza in the first place. After all, the length and breadth of Israel/Palestine is the homeland of these Palestinians, no less than the home of the Jews. Both peoples have an equal claim to the land.
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jovial10 months, 2 weeks ago
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In a separate story, we find that Ohlmert has quite a bit of sway in the U.S. government. This is the story of an egg and how it found it's way to the U.S. Secretary of State's face.
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http://feeds.bignewsnetwork.com/index.php?sid=4533... -
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jimdoze10 months, 2 weeks ago
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Hamas mis-calculated. They thought they could use foreign aid to continue buying weapons, lob rockets at Israel from schoolyards, place command posts in and under hospitals. Then, per the tried and true formula, bait the Israelis into chasing them and, in doing so, kill innocents... and then expect world opinion to restrain Israel... thereby winning the political war against Isreal. What they failed to calculate is that the world hasn't forgotten that Israel dismantled substantial settlements on the West Bank in return for peace... and did not get peace. Sympathy for Hamas is a little tougher to come by this time around.
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dissent10 months, 2 weeks ago
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why are there hundreds of palestinian casualties year after year?
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why should the palestinians endure israeli oppression, repression and aggression?
if the maltreatment of the palestinian people were by any country on earth other than israel NOBODY here could morally and justifiably support it. EVERYBODY would have no choice but to CONDEMN it.
israel however ALWAYS has immunity and people who would otherwise have a conscience just check it in at the door..... lemmings-
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Lincoln8510 months, 2 weeks ago
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The palestinians, or hamas are the ones that are vowed to kill all Jews. No matter what peace treaty Israel signs, they turn around and kill Jews. Israel even kicked out their own people in the outer settlements and they were still attacked. I guess you didn't give a damn when women and children were being killed for several years after our 911. I hope Israel punishes them into extinction.
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dissent10 months, 2 weeks ago
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take a look at this map and try repeating that with heartfelt sincerity if you can
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http://www.sott.net/image/image/9591/israel-palest...-
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dissent10 months, 2 weeks ago
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here's the same kind of story except with maps ending in 2006. it shows even more palestinian land lost.
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http://palestinethinktank.com/2006/05/10/the-shrin...
2009 is only two weeks old so good luck with that request. let me know when you've found another hair to split, jimdoze
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jovialComment removed: Spam
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albionperfides10 months, 2 weeks ago
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Jovial
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Your extract from Gerald Kaufman's speech in the House of Commons did not make clear that he is an anti Zionist Jew: more power to his elbow.
WRT to Qassam rockets fired into Israel, it would be illuminating to know its explosive energy compared with the IAF favourite weapon the 500 pound bomb. Then we could make a true comparison between the Hamas and the Zionists. -
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albionperfides10 months, 2 weeks ago
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Oh Jimdoze where have you been? If what you describe is so then the Israelis have fallen for the trap set and that is to show the world their inhumanity. You will never have been in an air raid I imagine and these in Gaza are Guernica to the infinite degree. You should read some reliable newspapers and find out what the past has been in Palestine since 1946.
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cherev10 months, 2 weeks ago
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This is pretty surprising considering the leftist media has been about as pro-Israel as hyperbola for a very long time. My local paper has been giving lip-service regarding Israel's right to defend itself for decades. It's always, "Israel has a right to defend itself, but...." and then condemns whatever Israel does as "excessive", "not proportional", whatever.
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Naturally, the leftist media hasn't said word one about the anti-Semitic Hamas charter - the motivation for the attacks against Israel. Yet, it seems the majority of Americans surveyed understand what Hamas is all about. And let's not kid ourselves...the anti-"Israel" posters on this site understand it as well...and are hoping for a Hamas win.-
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canadianrancher5710 months, 2 weeks ago
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You mention of lip service in your comment and this is something that I have noticed in the area that I live. Up here in Canada there have been numerous people charged under the Hate law for promoting hatred against Jews and Israel and also for teaching that the holocaust did not happen. One thing that I have noticed though is what people say in public is not always what they say in private conversation. The area I live in has always had a hatred for Jewish people and I though that it had change since for many years there were no anti-Semetic comments. As I mentioned a week or so ago I did hear a very anti-Semetic comment in a public place and since then there seem to be many more that are showing thier true colors. If these people were to be polled about the actions by Israel I feel that they would likely come out either in support or have a no comment opinion. To me this is where the danger is not so much today but maybe in the future. the people who are now condeming Israel in front of their children are creating a new group that will hate Israel and the problem with children is they look at things in a much simpler way than adults do.
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My question to you is, what should be my response to a child who asks why on one side there are to date 13 deaths and on the other side maybe over 900. We as parents try to teach our children to care for others and we preach to them about all people being equal and how we must respect the law, we try and teach them that there is fairness in the world.
Cherev- I believe that Israel has the right to excist as a nation, I also believe that Israel has the right to protect itself, I have no problem telling a child that some of those who have died were firing missles at people in order to kill them, but to me there is no answer when they ask about the children and women.-
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cherev10 months, 2 weeks ago
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"what should be my response to a child who asks why on one side there are to date 13 deaths and on the other side maybe over 900."
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You could explain that since the terrorists have no regard for their lives or the lives of others, and that they don't care how many Arabs are killed so long as they can kill one Jew.
"I have no problem telling a child that some of those who have died were firing missles at people in order to kill them, but to me there is no answer when they ask about the children and women."
If there is no answer for you, then that's the end of it for you. I have a different view..-
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canadianrancher5710 months, 2 weeks ago
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So when I have no answer about the death of people who may not actually be the enemy, they wil ask others and as I stated in my comment there is a feeling against the Jewish people where I live and I feel that this feeling is more widespread than many wish to believe. If the world decides to turn on Israel we do not know how everyone thinks so we really do not know who ones allies are. There are powers in the world today that have no ties with Israel or the Palistinians and if they take sides there is no saying who will come out the winner. There interests in this area may be for one of the other reasons for war and that is resources. Eventually mans hatred will cause a conflict that will not only be the end of me but the end of us all.
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Before Christmas I noticed on one story you mentioned that you had changed and offered an olive branch of peace to another member here on propeller which I considered a very honorable thing to do. To me this action was something that we should all expand apon. It was an offer of peace which is also what I hope for except not between individuals but between nations-
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cherev10 months, 2 weeks ago
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"there is a feeling against the Jewish people where I live and I feel that this feeling is more widespread than many wish to believe.
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The vast, overwhelming majority either hate the Jews or don't care what happens to them. It's always been this way.
"If the world decides to turn on Israel"
Not "if" ..."When"
"There are powers in the world today that have no ties with Israel or the Palistinians and if they take sides there is no saying who will come out the winner."
No one will win.
"Before Christmas I noticed on one story you mentioned that you had changed and offered an olive branch of peace to another member here on propeller which I considered a very honorable thing to do."
You're mistaken. I offered no olive branch. I just explained that I came to the realization that the only person I was hurting with my negativity was myself.
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ChefEOD10 months, 2 weeks ago
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Try telling them that Hamas deliberately places them in harms way because they treasure the deaths of their own (for propaganda purposes) as much as they relish the deaths of the Jews they fire their missiles at. Then tell them that the Israeli’s try to warn the civilians that they are going to attack certain targets, and ask your children, “why would they do that?”, because unlike Hamas they do not want those innocent women and children to die. Tell them that Hamas is also sad that their missiles kill as few Jews as they do, that they do not fire them hoping that only one or two die, that they fire them praying that as many will die as possible. Tell them how Hamas and other Jihadists strap bombs to their children, even the handicap ones when they can, and send them to Jewish grocery stores, also with prayers that many will die.
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That might be a good start...-
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cherev10 months, 2 weeks ago
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"Who's teaching you this crap?"
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Maybe he learned it from how much people like you value the lives of Jewish children?
When you whine about what the Israelis are doing to the Arabs, but say do not protest against the Arabs when they launch their bombs against the Jews (as they've been doing for years before Israel retaliated), it's understandable that people come to the right conclusion about you. -
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allasam10 months, 2 weeks ago
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What's wrong with you Israelis? All that Hammas wants is to shoot bombs into Israel with impunity. C'mon Israel, smarten up, let them lob rockets at you. Hesbollah to. Did you Israelis really need to shoot back? Look at those poor Gaza people crying.
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jovial10 months, 2 weeks ago
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dissent10 months, 2 weeks ago
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crghss10 months, 2 weeks ago
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Your actually right. Iran's long term plan. Iran's mercenaries, Hamas, are always sent on a terrorist mission when ever Iran's population gets restless. Now with oil below $40 a barrel Iran can't pay the bill's. People are getting ******. So out come the mercenaries, Hamas.
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crghss10 months, 2 weeks ago
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But who let the cease fire lapse? Who vastly increased the number rockets fired into Israel? Hamas. Why? Because Iran would refused to keep paying them if they didn't. Egypt and Saudi Arabia know this why not you? Oh yeah, never let ANYTHING stop the killing of jews. Your little black book tells you so. Lets all bow at the altar of the suicide belt and praise be to Iran. Now be a good little terrorist and put on your burqa and go to the basement.
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dissent10 months, 2 weeks ago
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the ceasefire was breached by israel on 4 nov (election day) when it entered gaza and killed 6 palestinians. israel also never lifted its blockade. a ceasefire requirement. follow the news rather than your paranoid delusions and get a clue
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Endoscopy10 months, 2 weeks ago
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Explain to me why any dead Israelis? There was the promise of peace if Israel gave a land to the Palestinians. What happened? Suicide bombers and Missiles the day that Israel left. What a concept of peace. Perfectly in line with the Hamas charter though.
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Why do you spout the terrorist line Mr. Muslim?-
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dissent10 months, 2 weeks ago
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why any dead israelis? why ask me? ask the idf.
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israel gives the palestinians land? lol. not according to this map
http://www.sott.net/image/image/9591/israel-palest...
watch that last step, lemming, it's a doozy..... even in your alternate up is down universe
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slate10 months, 2 weeks ago
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dissent10 months, 2 weeks ago
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"You have to kill every person or at least attempt to do that to be termed genocide, you know, like the Nazis did?"
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what do you think has been happening since 1967? do you know how much palestinian land has been lost in that time? do you really know how much control israel has over palestinian lives?
can you honestly say your conscience is cool with that? i mean honestly? i know mine's not. it's just wrong. very very wrong.
so yes, i believe it is genocide. genocide in slow motion. israel wants that land and the palestinians gone. that is clear enough.
btw, did you know that israel bombed the un compound today?.... 5 times?
do you know what white phosphorous does to human flesh? it burns like acid to the bone. this is the sh*t that israel is pouring across the most densely populated place on earth. it's what we used in fallujah. it's those smoking burning octopus-like tentacles you see reach down into gaza spreading across a football field of space like a war of the worlds alien invasion.
the excuse is it's supposed to enhance visibility, like a torch or a flare. thing is, it's done in the middle of the day. did you know that trying to wash white phosphorous off with water only makes it worse?
how do i know israel is doing this? the un told me. this is news. but of course.... lets talk about fliers, huh? fliers that flutter harmlessly into innocent people's lives telling them to run away. little pieces of paper that say to them run or they'll die. but it doesn't tell them where to run because there's nowhere to run slate. and if they do they'll just die trying.
yeah, you go ahead and wipe your conscience with those fliers slate.-
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slate10 months, 2 weeks ago
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Wow once again you go right past the thing about Israel drooping fliers to attempt to get the civilians to leave so you can continue you ‘enlightened’ hate about them.
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“what do you think has been happening since 1967? do you know how much palestinian land has been lost in that time? do you really know how much control israel has over palestinian lives?”
Since when is land considered part of Genocide? Me thinks you need to go look the word up.
“btw, did you know that israel bombed the un compound today?.... 5 times?”
Did you also hear that Hamas was firing from the UN building?
Ahhhhhh if only you’d have been so fired up over the years when Hamas shot missiles and set off bombes strapped to their young,,,,,,, if only you had the compassion of the Israelis lives, maybe you could have done something to help avoid all this.
But we know, you are always silent when it comes to deaths of Israelis.-
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dissent10 months, 2 weeks ago
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still with the fliers.... what do you not understand by "nowhere to run"?
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as for word definitions....
genocide
n.
The systematic and planned extermination of an entire national, racial, political, or ethnic group.
oh looky! the shoe fits!!
hamas firing weapons from the un compound? only one person is saying that, olmert. even barack called it a grave mistake before flip flopping and saying it wasn't a mistake.
the un compound contained humanitarian aid and food supplies for what is now a humanitarian crisis. it also provided shelter for 700 palestinians, which is quite a few but already a few hundred less than the number that has been slaughtered in this massacre already. now it does neither
as for your "if only" tsk tsk tsking. discounting for the moment the numbers that you stubbornly remain unswayed by -- 100+ palestinians die for every israeli or on a good day 10 palestinians to every 1 israeli -- if you were to acknowledge the oppression of the palestinian people and their suffering -- something you equally stubbornly refuse to do for fear that your whole fragile and closed mindset will shatter around you -- you would see that all people who die on either side, the palestinians as well as the israelis, die as a consequence of this persecution. i'll repeat, as a consequence. it is the root cause
perhaps you should ask yourself what would you do, how would you feel what would you think "if only" YOU were a palestinian. include all the checkpoints, the lack of food and medical supplies, the israeli paperwork to travel more than 20 miles, the f18s that scream in the airspace over your head that you will never fly in, and the bombs that come all too frequently out of the blue as israel exercise collective punishment, what it calls its right to defend itself. give yourself 5 minutes to try and imagine that and then see just what epiphanies are revealed that may enlighten you.
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ChefEOD10 months, 2 weeks ago
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I suppose you all hold to the conception of "proportional response"? Well, let me clue you in, proportional response NEVER ends a war, it only prolongs it indefinitely and allows your enemy to continually adapt and improve, discarding that which is ineffective and refining those tactics that do. There is no more sure of a way to guarantee your own eventual defeat. The Israeli’s have put up with these rocket attacks for 8 years and it makes no difference that they only killed a few for the intent of Hamas has always been to kill as many as possible.
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Tell me, if you as an individual are attacked and shot at by some thug and you choose to defend yourself by shooting back, when the thug stops to reload, does that end the threat? Or do you continue to fire until the scum bag is put down?-
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slate10 months, 2 weeks ago
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proportional response
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Germany bombed London and they too liked to lob missiles that only killed a few people.
So tell me, after that terror should the Allied forces have only lobbed rockets into German cities as a response or were they right to use superior force to win that war, which included carpet bombing of German cities as a 'response' to the V rockets? -
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ChefEOD10 months, 2 weeks ago
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No jovial that is not at all what I am saying and you are bright enough to know that. So I have to ask what are you trying to accomplish by intentionally misreading what I said?
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The analogy is this, it is not just you and the thug standing in the street, your families and your neighbors and their families are there as well. The thug doesn’t just stand there when you return fire, he grabs one of the neighbor girls and ducks behind his wife and continues to fire. He fires and reloads, fires and reloads, and all the while, even though he is a bad shot and just using a 22, you and your children are still dodging bullets. Do you even consider, “he is only using a 22, to be fair I should just use a 22 myself”? Or after 8 years of this do you reach a point where you say, “this has to end, I need to take this slime ball out”? And then, you even yell out to the girl and wife, “I’m going to shot this guy, I don’t wish to hurt you so do what you can to get as far from him as you can.”-
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ChefEOD10 months, 2 weeks ago
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Yes you are correct in that. Kind of a catch-22.
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So what is the solution? Hamas will not cease their warfare other than to regroup and Israel cannot let the rockets continue, nor should they be expected to.
While in the service I spent the better part of 12 years in that part of the world, including 14 months in Israel. I have a sister and her family who live in Lebanon and an uncle and his family who live in Israel. Even though it has been a few years since my last visit, I do understand that the Palestinian people are living under some severe hardships. I also understand and believe that much of that could end if the Palestinian people were willing for it to end with other than the destruction of Israel. I also understand that as much as anything else the conflict has become self-perpetuating and I see no truly viable solution other than forced peace with swift and terrible retribution/penalties for anyone who violates that peace. But that is no real solution either is it?-
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jovial10 months, 2 weeks ago
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It's truly sad, I've been to Israel in my travels as well. The people of israel were one of the most hospitable set of people I ever encountered. I can't understand these news reports that I'm hearing. I never thought that I would see such a cruel assault from such a friendly group of people. I'm stymied as well on what to do, but I will say one thing, the USA has to cut the umbilical cord to Israel. We can still support them against terror attacks and the like, but we don't need to be sending them weapons and money. If they need money for infrastructure or humanitarian work then it's ok. If we continue to support them with weapons and money, we will see more and more radicals. And the money we spend on weapons and fighting them is sure to increase. I mean damn, can't we put up a bunch of patriot missile systems or something like that to render those rockets ineffective? I'm sure with all the technology we have we could come up with some kind of missile shield that would protect the Israeli territory, don't you think?
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BravoSierra10 months, 2 weeks ago
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Cognitive dissonance...a person who buys an expensive car that turns out to be a lemon is the strongest defender of the brand he purchased....
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We've just invested billions in a lemon of a car...same kind Israel is buying...lol. Of course the majority of people are going to back Israel's actions...-
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dissent10 months, 2 weeks ago
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good point. just as a car is an extension of our ego, so israel is an extension of our national ego. if our car is a lemon then, by inference, our ego says we are lemons too. if israel is a lemon then we, as a nation, must also be dysfunctional.
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to address whatever may be wrong with our country, israel or, for that matter, our lemon of a car, would be sensible and logical so that we can fix it, but it is too confrontational to our national and individual egos to admit that we are wrong.
it must be somebody else's fault. better to just find a scapegoat to blame it all on. a people who have no voice and so can't speak up for themselves. the palestinian people sound perfect for that -- no rights, no country, no voice.
they can then be lumped under the more generic label of people to be blamed and hated for everything -- muslims. and if you really want to go really general and find a name to call anyone we hate, despise, want to kill and can be blamed for everything, then just call them..... "terrorists".
and even if we don't hate them it's the best reason we've got to do anything we damn well please, and anyone who dares complain, well..... they must be terrorists too. so kill them all
how civilized we are not-
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BravoSierra10 months, 2 weeks ago
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The real shame is the half measures we take. We could create a viable economy and provide hope for the Palestinians but won't. It's bad for manipulating oil prices and the balance of power to fix the problem between Palestinians and Israelis...and we will not declare total war and fire bomb Gaza into oblivion the way we did Dresden...so we perpetuate the profit that the conflict provides, maintain the illusion to ourselves that we are in the 'right' and never really have to act on a moral stand that would upset the balance of power over the Red Sea trade route.
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Thinker2210 months, 2 weeks ago
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>We could create a viable economy and provide hope for the Palestinians but won't.
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I'm sorry to say it but you can not do it AGAINST THEIR WILL. Palestinians DO NOT WANT a viable economy and the only hope that is important for them is the hope that one day they'll be able to destroy Israel and exterminate the Jews.-
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BravoSierra10 months, 2 weeks ago
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I love the argument that Palestinians are subhuman and only want to suffer and live in squalor as a justification for how they are treated. Of course, we know from brain plasticity and socialization studies that this isn't the case. I great analogy is the Irish and the English. Once Ireland had a viable economy that became intertwined with Britain's economy along with a 2% unemployment rate the Irish population turned upon an disarmed the IRA.
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Of course, the British saw the Irish as subhuman the same way you see the Palestinians as subhuman. They even taught at Cambridge that the Irish we not of the same species as the rest of humans and that they were a subspecies on the evolutionary tree between monkeys and humans.
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Thinker2210 months, 2 weeks ago
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>I love the argument that Palestinians are subhuman and only want to suffer and live in squalor as a justification for how they are treated.
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Apparently, you "love" your own fantasies, my dear. These fantasies, however, do not have anything in common with what I've said.
You see, I've NEVER said that Palestinians were "subhuman". I've NEVER said that they "only wanted to suffer" etc.
I HAVE said, however, that for them destruction of Israel was more important than creation of a state of their own. I HAVE said that for them WAR with Israel was preferable over PEACE with Israel. If you disagree read the Palestinian Constitution (Charter) and the Hamas Charter. You'll know better what the Palestinians of the West Bank and Gaza (respectively) want:
http://electronicintifada.net/bytopic/historicaldo...
http://www.acpr.org.il/resources/hamascharter.html-
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BravoSierra10 months, 2 weeks ago
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your generalization regarding Palestinian goals to all Palestinians and that it suggests that they all have only one desire and that the majority do not aspire to see their children grow and flourish implicity dehumanizes the individuals that make up the population.
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Furthermore, your belief that the charter is a cause and not a consequence of not having a rewarding hopeful life to look forward to denies human nature and what we know about psychology and rationalizations. Go study the split-brain studies and you will realize that the Charter is a consequence, not a cause.
If you are right, you have to be willing to commit mass genocide. If you are wrong you have to be willing to censure Israel and invest in genuine economic development and re-socialization of the Palestinians the way Mao resocialized the 8 million opium addicts in Shanghai in 1949.
You want to have it somewhere in the middle. It's a logically immoral position to be in. The test of an ethic is whether it survivies being carried to the extreme.
Are you willing to personally go gut 1.2 million people with a combat knife? Men, women and children? If not you really don't have the moral courage to back up your generalization to all Palestinians.-
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Thinker2210 months, 2 weeks ago
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> your generalization regarding Palestinian goals to all Palestinians ...
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This is a lie. I did not say that the Palestinian goals as expressed by their Charters were the goals of ALL Palestinians. The fact that the Charter was voted for and supported by the MAJORITY of Palestinians is a proof that it represented the goals of the said MAJORITY.
> Furthermore, your belief that the charter is a cause and not a consequence...
This is another lie. I've said absolutely nothing suggesting that the Charter was either the cause or a consequence of anything. I've said that it represented the will of the Palestinian majority.
> If you are right, you have to be willing to commit mass genocide.
This is still another lie. I've said numerous times on this forum that I was willing to achieve a mutually acceptable peace agreement which can not be equated to "mass genocide" by any stretch of imagination.
> You want to have it somewhere in the middle. It's a logically immoral position.
I do not need you or anyone else to tell me what I want. It's MY JOB to say what I want as I know much better than you do what I want. You may feel free to tell me what YOU want. Keep in mind, however, that you'll be asked to defend your position.
> Are you willing to personally go gut 1.2 million people with a combat knife? Men, women and children?
I beleive that the Israelis have the right and obligation to defend their lives, their families and their country no matter how many enemies are trying to kill them. I further believe that they have every right to use any legitimate weapon in their disposal, not exclusively knives.
Unlike you and many other so-called "pro-Palestinians" I believe that most Palestinian Arabs ARE CAPABLE OF LIVING IN PEACE and this means that the number of dead militants will be much lower than your projected number of 1.2 million when the Palestinian leaders will finally decide to stop attacking Israel and will agree to start peace negotiations..-
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BravoSierra10 months, 2 weeks ago
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Read what you wrote. You made gross and broad generalizations.
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Read the law regarding the use of deadly force. You cannot kill someone because they want you dead. There must be an immenent threat of harm and you cannot kill the person's who wants you dead's family.
So, if a person says they want you dead and they attack you with a pillow you have to use a level of force back that is only one step up from the real risk of the threat. If you pulled out a .44 magnum and blew someone's brains out for hitting you with a pillow you would go to prison for manslaughter, maybe even premeditated murder. If you intentionally went home to get the .44 to take to a pillow fight, you would be guilty of premeditated murder.
If the person escallated to fists and you out weighted them by 100lbs and were twice as strong and you pulled out an M60 machinegun and killed them for losing their temper and taking a swing at you, you would be guilty of manslaughter because the response was not reasonable or measured...
In the military, the rules for the use of deadly force require that there be either an immanent risk of death or serious bodily harm or that the person is escaping with materials that can cause death. For example, if htey pulled a knife on you as they tried to rob an armory you could shoot them, or, if they were escaping with an AK-47 you could shoot them. But if a bumbling, falling down drunk soldier with a slingshot tries to rob the local PX you would be guilty of manslaughter...a la the case in Oakland now.-
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Thinker2210 months, 2 weeks ago
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>Read what you wrote. You made gross and broad generalizations.
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This is another lie... unless you'll SHOW the "gross and broad generalizations".
>You cannot kill someone because they want you dead. There must be an immenent threat of harm and you cannot kill the person's who wants you dead's family.
Tell this to the chiefs of the military of the country you live. They'll certainly ask for your permission to use force during a war.
>So, if a person says they want you dead and they attack you with a pillow you have to use a level of force back that is only one step up...
Two pillows? You have great sense of humor, sir, but when people are being killed during a war it's not THAT laughable.-
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BravoSierra10 months, 2 weeks ago
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you can kill the man trying to kill you, but you cannot kill all the children in the building with him...that sir is against the international conventions governing the use of deadly force and is the basis of the UN's claims against Israel now that they are using excessive force.
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As for my country. I hope the prosecute Bush for war crimes. He's taken us down the same road of losing our moral supremacy that Israel has lost. When Israel was a young country and terrorists were killing your athletes and hijacking your citizens and you responded with reasonable force, the world saw Israel as being in the right. But as some point when you have the fourth largest military in the world you should have to stop whining about being so mistreated.
You have identified with your Nazi aggressors and have put 1.2 million people in a ghetto because you lose a handful of people to criminals a year.
And yes, the law says you get to do the equivalent of two pillows...not 500 lb bombs.
What's comical is that the 4th largest military in the world is so ineffective against people who are using the relative equivalent of sling shots...
Oh...let's see, David used a sling shot...
Be careful that you do not break your covenant and become what Israelis used to and that your God still abhors.-
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Thinker2210 months, 2 weeks ago
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>...you can kill the man trying to kill you, but you cannot kill all the children in the building with him...
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Unfortunately, even Israel does not have the magic weapon able to kill the bad guys only. This is true for every other country as well, by the way.
>when you have the fourth largest military in the world you should have to stop whining about being so mistreated.
The US has the first most powerful army on the planet. Nevertheless, it did go after the terrorists to Afghanistan.
>And yes, the law says you get to do the equivalent of two pillows...not 500 lb bombs.
I'm not sure which "law" you're talking about but I'll appreciate you showing me some information about the US crushing eight airliners into Afghani cities in response to 9/11. You may support this by some historical reports about the US responding to Pearl Harbor attack by sinking several Japanese ships and stopping the war after that.
> What's comical is that the 4th largest military in the world is so ineffective against people who are using the relative equivalent of sling shots...
You're partly right here. Israeli military IS ineffective. It could easily turn Gaza into a giant pile of rubble covering hundreds of thousands of dead bodies in a matter of several days. Instead Israelis are doing everything in their ability to save Palestinian lives. Unfortunately, neither israel nor any other country was able to develop effective enough ways to fight terrorists hiding among crowds of their cheering supporters.
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BravoSierra10 months, 2 weeks ago
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I'm not pro-Palestinian, I'm just willing to admit the truth that this conflict is fueled by ever nation on earth to maintain the balance of power over control of the Red Sea Trade Route.
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Hamas and Palestinians dont' have to accept that Israel is a "democratic and Jewish state" any more than that the US had to accept the existence of the Soviet Union and it's charter to spread Marxism. You don't get to kill people just because they want you dead.
I personally don't believe in limited warfare. I believe in Total War. I believe less than Total War is immoral...so ponder that. I just find you morally an logically inconsistent.
Israel is currently rejecting and has always materially rejected a two-state solution no matter what lip-service they pay to it on occassion. With that being the case their constitution amounts to slavery to any Arab who accepts the statement that Israel is a "democratic and Jewish state". That's like saying a US that allowed only people of Aryan descent to vote would be a democracy. A US that did had slaves was not a democracy. A US that did not allow women to vote was not a democracy.
Ever asked a Jewish Israeli what they would do to the Arab-Israeli citizens if they started having more children and in democratic elections attained a majority in the Isreali legislature?
They will tell you they will never allow that to happen, that they will kill, arrest, deport, imprison, disavow voting rights, etc. to any non-Jewish party that appears to be gaining a majority. They've already legally dispersed two political parties made up of Israeli citizens of Arab descent and religious beliefs.
Their 'democracy' is nothing like a US democracy that set slaves free, established rights to freedom of religion, and in its declaration of independence affirmed that ALL men are created equal.
Israel's constitution is the logical and moral enemy of the US Declaration of Indepedence, Constitution and Bill of Rights.-
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Thinker2210 months, 2 weeks ago
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>You don't get to kill people just because they want you dead.
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You have every right to kill them in case they attack you and your family using deadly force. Palestinians and their terrorist leadership did and do use all types of deadly weapons available to them to DELIBERATELY MURDER AS MANY ISRAELI MEN, WOMEN AND CHILDREN THEY COULD.
>Israel is currently rejecting and has always materially rejected a two-state solution...
...and the Moon is made of Blue Cheese.
>With that being the case their constitution amounts to slavery...
Israel does not have a constitution, Mr. Sierra, but don't let facts to interfere with your imagination. Please continue.
>That's like saying a US that allowed only people of Aryan descent to vote would be a democracy.
I'm not sure how your mental process is working but in BOTH countries (Israel and the US) ALL citizens have the very same rights guaranteed by the state laws.
>Ever asked a Jewish Israeli...They will tell you they will never allow...
Speak for yourself. Jewish Israelis will do the same.
> ..they will never allow that to happen, that they will kill, arrest, deport, imprison, disavow voting rights, etc. to any non-Jewish party...
The fact is that the number of Arabs living in Israel as citizens increased by 900% since 1948. During the very same time the number of Jews in the Arab countries decreased by 98%... but you should not let fact to interfere with your (pretty creative) imagination. Please continue.
>Israel's constitution is the logical and moral enemy of the US Declaration of Indepedence, Constitution and Bill of Rights.
This is, probably, correct. The US Declaration of Indepedence, Constitution and Bill of Rights are existing official documents. The Israeli constitution is a non-existing one so its content depends solely on your imagination.
I have to congratulate you, Mr. Sierra. You've made me laugh so loudly very few posters here were able to do. Keep the good job!-
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BravoSierra10 months, 2 weeks ago
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The Israelis have been unable to approve a formal document called the "Constitution". They have a draft that has been followed defacto for many years. A Constitution is a plan of government. The Isrealis have an organized governement that has defined governmental bodies and functions. The draft constitution of 1993 has been the effective law for many years although it has not been ratified. By default, having a plan of government means you have a constitution abeit 'unsigned'.
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I've spoken with many Israelis and trained with them once upon a time. I can only report what those I talked to have told me. You an Israeli? You talk to many Israelis?
According to international convention, the Israeli response is excessive unless one accepts the concept of Total War as valid. If you accept this, then you have to accept genocide as valid. In which case, Israel should be allowed to destroy all of Palestine and kill them all.
Again, I ask you...are you willing to take a combat knife and gut 1.2 million people?-
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Thinker2210 months, 2 weeks ago
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> Constitution is a plan of government.
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False. Constitution is the BASIC LAW of a state.
> The draft constitution of 1993 has been the effective law for many years although it has not been ratified. By default, having a plan of government means you have a constitution abeit 'unsigned'.
False again. Any draft remains a draft until it is properly ratified and approved.
> You an Israeli? You talk to many Israelis?
I know what I'm talking about. If you disagree with what I'm saying PROVE me wrong.
> According to international convention, the Israeli response is excessive ...
False again. 'Excessive' by definition means that the same goal could be achieved by lesser means. As the goal of Israeli military operations was and still remains end of Palestinian attacks against Israelis these operations were rather INADEQUATE.
> Again, I ask you...are you willing to take a combat knife and gut 1.2 million people?
Again, I'm answering you that I'll use all weapons in my disposal to fight those trying to kill me, my family and my country regardless of the number of those enemies.-
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BravoSierra10 months, 2 weeks ago
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jez...you can't even read a dictionary.
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Constitution: the system of fundamental principles according to which a nation, state, corporation, or the like, is governed.
The system of fundamental laws and principles that prescribes the nature, functions, and limits of a government or another institution.
It's not the Laws of the Land or of conduct of the citizens, it is the rules describing the functions and limits of a government.
The laws of a state might make theft illegal in that state. That's not what a constitution is. A constitution is the set of rules or laws that govern the functions of the government.-
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Thinker2210 months, 2 weeks ago
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> you can't even read a dictionary.
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Of course not. Let us see:
> Constitution: the system of fundamental PRINCIPLES...
> The system of fundamental LAWS and PRINCIPLES...
A system of fundamental LAWS and PRINCIPLES is A BASIC LAW, not a"plan". A "plan" is a PROGRAM for future actions.
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BravoSierra10 months, 2 weeks ago
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Let me ask you this, this year do get to wear one of those little red badges that you get to wear for a year when you have done covert operations behind enemy lines?
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If so, then I'll have to admit that you have the courage of your convictions. I still think Israel's position has become immoral but at least you put yourself on the line...if you have one of those little red medals....
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BravoSierra10 months, 2 weeks ago
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While the draft Isreali Constitution has not been ratified as a whole document, the government seems to use it none-the-less.
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From the Jewish Center for Public Affairs: "Although Israel does not have a single complete constitutional document, in its forty-five years of statehood the Jewish state has developed an operative constitution of its own, embodied in a set of written texts that reflect the political system on which the state is based, its social content, and an expanding constitutional tradition."
Jews in Isreal need to argue to the US that they are a democracy not a Theocracy. Therefore, they brag that even though they cannot get their crap together well enough to ratify a constitution, they really have one none-the-less....
Instead, the Israeli Supreme Court, given that Isreal could not rightfully declare itself a 'state' without a 'constitution', in 1998 elevated the "Basic Laws of Isreal" to the status of a Constitution.
you need to know you history better.-
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Thinker2210 months, 2 weeks ago
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> you need to know you history better.
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Of course. Can you help me here? I've somehow missed the link to the official Constitution of the State of Israel, Mr. Sierra. Can you be so kind to post it again? Please?
> Jews in Isreal need to argue to the US that they are a democracy not a Theocracy.
What for? No one in his/her right mind would argu\e that a multiparty SECULAR democracy is a Theocracy.
> Therefore, they brag that even though they cannot get their crap together well enough to ratify a constitution, they really have one none-the-less....
Can you get YOUR crap together, Mr. Sierra? As of now almost every claim you've posrted here was a flop...-
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BravoSierra10 months, 2 weeks ago
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Do me a favor. Would you publish the list of various religions that are allowed and that are not allows to own land in Israel...that is, a list of which sects of Christianity and of Islam are allowed to own property?
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I may be mistaken, but I understand that in your 'secular' country not all people of all religious beliefs are allowed to own land.
I also believe that while all citizens can vote, just as with a 'soviet' in the USSR, your legislature the Knesset gets to approve who can run for various offices in the country. Is this not true? So, if that is correct, your 'secular' government is more like Iran's or the USSR's than the US government. That is, 20% of Israeli citizens are Arab but only seven members of the Knesset are Arabs. Also...if my understanding is correct, a grass roots movement in which a majority of Israelis wanted a muslim Arab on the ballot could be invalidated by the Knesset...is that not correct.
If my understanding is correct...then despite the 'secular' wording of some of your laws, functionally, you maintain a Jewish theocracy and majority by force of law.
What would happen if an Arab won a write in popular vote...or do you allow write-in votes for PM?
Let's see...your 'secular' government also has religious courts...is that not correct? And there is an office called the "Chief Rabbinate of Israel" that reports to the Prime Minister...?
How secular is that?-
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Thinker2210 months, 2 weeks ago
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>Would you publish the list of various religions that are allowed and that are not allows to own land in Israel...that is, a list of which sects of Christianity and of Islam are allowed to own property?
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With pleasure. Any person of any religion is allowed to own land in Israel.
> I may be mistaken, but I understand that in your 'secular' country not all people of all religious beliefs are allowed to own land.
You're mistaken. I'm afraid that you're confusing Israel with Arab states where persons who are Jewish are not allowed to own land.
>I also believe that while all citizens can vote, just as with a 'soviet' in the USSR, your legislature the Knesset gets to approve who can run for various offices in the country. Is this not true?
The Kneset is the Israeli Parliament and it does approve officials just as the Congress approves officials in the US. All Israeli citizens, however, have the very same equal right to RUN for any offices.
> ..20% of Israeli citizens are Arab but only seven members of the Knesset are Arabs.
The Kneset members in Israel are elected not by their ethnicity but by their merit. I can assure you that in other countries (for example, in the US) the representatives in the Congress do not reflect exactly the distribution of American population by gender, religion, ethnicity, skin color, age and other characteristics.
> ...a grass roots movement in which a majority of Israelis wanted a muslim Arab on the ballot could be invalidated by the Knesset...is that not correct.
It is not correct.
>If my understanding is correct...
Your "understanding" is no more than a fruit of your (or someone else's) imagination and has nothing to do with reality.
>What would happen if an Arab won a write in popular vote...or do you allow write-in votes for PM?
I'm not sure what a "write in popular vote" means but each Israeli citizen has one and only one vote and he or she has to vote in person.
>Let's see...your 'secular' government also has religious courts...is that not correct?
There are religious courts in Israel but these courts are not part of the Israeli government... just like various religious institutions in the US are not part of the US government.
>And there is an office called the "Chief Rabbinate of Israel" that reports to the Prime Minister...?
Yes, there is a Chief Rabbinate office in Israel. It makes Israel no more and no less a religious state than the Anglican Church makes Britain a religious state.-
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BravoSierra10 months, 2 weeks ago
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So, is their a Chief Cardinal of Catholic Affairs at the cabinet level that reports to the Prime Minister?
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A write-in vote law allows that person to cast his or her vote to anyone they want to whether they are on the ballot or not. My understanding is that the Knesset operates like a russian soviet under the USSR...only the names approved by the Knesset are allowed to be on the ballot.
You say my understanding is correct but you don't state what is correct. So, what is correct?
Having a Chief Rabbinate and religious courts is very different from the Anglicans and certainly from the US. The british do not have religious courts as a matter of the structure and laws of governing the nation. I think you are twisting the matter to say a religious office at the level of the cabinet in Israel is just like any other democracy.-
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Thinker2210 months, 1 week ago
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> is their a Chief Cardinal of Catholic Affairs at the cabinet level that reports to the Prime Minister?
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As far as I know there is a religious officer that reports to the Queen. Does this qualify?
>My understanding is that the Knesset operates like a russian soviet under the USSR...only the names approved by the Knesset are allowed to be on the ballot.
> You say my understanding is correct but you don't state what is correct. So, what is correct?
As I've said your understanding was INcorrect. In Israel people vote for a political party. It's the members of each party who approve the list of candidates, not the Kneset. In the former Soviet Union there was only one party and the list of candidates was approved NOT by the Supreme Soviet (the Parliament) but by the Central Committee of the Communist party. The members of the Central Committee were not voted for but appointed. Again, there was only one party in the Soviet Union. There are about thirty political parties in Israel.
>The british do not have religious courts as a matter of the structure and laws of governing the nation.
So do the Israelis. In Israel religious courts are strictly voluntary (only those willing to abide by their decisions do it) and their jurisdiction is limited to personal affairs (marriages, divorces, funerals, etc.) In Britain and in the US the vast majority of people are married in church by a priest, correct?
This being said the Rabbinate and other religious offices in Israel, probably, are more powerful than they are in the US, however, this does not make Israel a religious state (a theocracy). As a matter of fact, about 80% of Israelis are secular. There IS a Ministry of religions in the Israeli government. It is interesting but this Ministry is a secular office. It's job is to co-ordinate the government with various (not only Jewish but also Muslim and Christian) religious offices and organizations) including religious schools, churches, holidays, funding, conflicts between different churches, etc.
Did I answer your questions?
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BravoSierra10 months, 2 weeks ago
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the idea of religious protection under the law suggests that there should be an archbishop of anglican affairs, an Islamic cleric and a catholic cardinal each with their own title and authority at the same level of the Chief Rabbinate. Can you provide me with the names and titles of these officials of other religions that report to the Prime Minister?
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Thinker2210 months, 1 week ago
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There are many more heads of different religious groups in Israel beyond those you've listed. None of them, however, report to the Prime Minister.
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The secular Ministry of Religions (it's NOT the Chief Rabbinate) is responsible for ALL affairs of Israeli government with ALL religions.
Did I answer your question, Mr. Sierra? If so can you show me a link to the Israeli Constitution and the statements there you did not like please?
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Thinker2210 months, 2 weeks ago
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> Therefore, they brag that even though they cannot get their crap together well enough to ratify a constitution, they really have one none-the-less....
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You should be a bit careful here, Mr. Sierra, because I'll ask you to SHOW that the "constitution they really have one none-the-less" is indeed "the logical and moral enemy of the US Declaration of Indepedence, Constitution and Bill of Rights."
You may start by showing the link to the official Constitution of the State of Israel which, according to you, Israel has. Then you'll show the specific statements contained in this document you believe to qualify as "the logical and moral enemy of the US Declaration of Indepedence, Constitution and Bill of Rights."
I wish you a lot of luck, Mr, Sierra.-
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BravoSierra10 months, 2 weeks ago
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The Laws of Israel are the functional Constitution of Israel according to the Israeli Supreme Court. The decision was made in 1998. The Israelis act on a premise that Israel is a "Jewish" state. It cannot be a democracy and a Jewish state bot at the same time. It is a logical inconsistency. They dance around the issue by refusing to resolve it so they can talk out of both sides of their mouth to the world and to their people.
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You'll flop around with them logically to maintain your beliefs.-
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Thinker2210 months, 2 weeks ago
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>It cannot be a democracy and a Jewish state bot at the same time. It is a logical inconsistency.
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By the same token Germany, France, Italy, Spain, Greece, Poland, Japan, Romania, Hungary and a lot of other nation-states can not be democracies and German, French, Spanish, Greek, Polish, Japanese, Romanian, Hungarian states respectively. According to you is a "logical inconsistency".
Can you produce a couple of examples of democratic states, Mr. Sierra?
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BravoSierra10 months, 2 weeks ago
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lol...so you admit Israel is not a "state" and it has no Constitution. You cannot have it both ways. It cannot be a SECULAR government AND not have a Constitution declaring it a secular government the way the Turkish constitution does. lol. You have to be Israeli...you are so very practiced at the logical double speak... You say Israel is secular but that they have no constitution stating that they are secular. The prototypes for secular constitutions are the French, Turkish and US constitutions that explicitly state that there shall be absolute freedom of religion...and in the Turkish case say government shall be totally free of religion. Yet...Israelis refer to themselves as a Jewish state. You pick whatever facts you want to make yourself right. and you lack moral and logical consistency. So, conversations with you is pointless.
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Thinker2210 months, 2 weeks ago
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>It cannot be a SECULAR government AND not have a Constitution...
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Did you hear about a state knows as Britain, Mr. Sierra? According to you, such state does not exist...
> Israelis refer to themselves as a Jewish state.
Yes. Similarly, the French refer to themselves as a French state and the Turks refer to themselves as a Turkish state.
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Thinker2210 months, 2 weeks ago
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>What am I missing here?
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You're missing the link to the Constitution of the State of Israel I've requested some time ago, Mr. Sierra. In addition, you're missing the specific statements contained in this document you believe to qualify as "the logical and moral enemy of the US Declaration of Indepedence, Constitution and Bill of Rights."
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BravoSierra10 months, 2 weeks ago
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"Palestinians DO NOT WANT a viable economy and the only hope that is important for them is the hope that one day they'll be able to destroy Israel and exterminate the Jews."
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Hmm...there it is in your own words...a clear description of a barbaric, subhuman people who do not aspire to see their children running and playing safely on playground, having plenty to eat, learning to contribute in healthy ways to their society...-
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Thinker2210 months, 2 weeks ago
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I can only repeat what I've said:
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"Palestinians DO NOT WANT a viable economy and the only hope that is important for them is the hope that one day they'll be able to destroy Israel and exterminate the Jews.
A sovereign independent state was offered to Palestinian Arabs in 1948, 1967, 1978, 2000, 2001. Every offer of statehood was combined with a sizable package containing financial, technological, legal, agricultural and every other types of aid imaginable that the Palestinians would receive from Israel, from the US and from Europe.
The Palestinians, however, REJECTED each and every offer of peace and a state. Every time their response to peace offers was was more violence and more demands for destruction of Israel. These are facts, Mr. Sierra. This is what is written in the Palestinian National Charter (Constitution) and the Charter of the current democratically elected government of Gaza. These are THEIR own words, not mine.
This is what the Palestinian Constitution is saying... in YOUR own words it's a clear description of a barbaric, subhuman people who do not aspire to see their children running and playing safely on playground, having plenty to eat, learning to contribute in healthy ways to their society...
If you do not like someone saying that the Palestinians are barbaric, subhuman people" -- look at the mirror.-
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BravoSierra10 months, 2 weeks ago
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you really don't know me well enough to make a statement like your last. it shows the limits and prejudicial foundations of your values.
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I don't believe I've stooped to calling you subhuman or barbaric.
But please, feel free to disclose your meanness further by resorting to name calling and insults. In the end people disclose what they are underneath.-
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Thinker2210 months, 2 weeks ago
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> ...you really don't know me well enough to make a statement like your last. it shows the limits and prejudicial foundations of your values.
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You don't know me at all so please don't make assumtpions about the limits and prejudicial foundations of my values.
> I don't believe I've stooped to calling you subhuman or barbaric.
No, you have not and I have not said or implied that you HAD. I DID, however, say that YOUR description of "subhuman or barbaric" fitted perfectly the statements contained in both Palestinian Charters. This means that, according to YOU, Palestinians (or, at least, their Constitutions) were "subhuman or barbaric".
> ...feel free to disclose your meanness further by resorting to name calling and insults.
I'll certainly do it much better if you'll help me by showing a couple of examples of name calling and insults I've posted.
Good luck!-
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BravoSierra10 months, 2 weeks ago
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Thinker2210 months, 2 weeks ago
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BravoSierra10 months, 2 weeks ago
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with all due respect, it's quite likely that I've buried more comrades defending your interests in the Middle East than you have...so, I just want to have an idea of how much you've actually put your own life at risk versus how much you are just shooting off your mouth.
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BravoSierra10 months, 2 weeks ago
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You see, what you have in common with the Palestinians I chat with is that you have the same inability to be self-reflective. You have been just as one-sided in your limited ability to question yourself as any Palestinian is. You've been given many opportunities as I goad you to say:
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"OK, well here is where you are right and here is where you are wrong. Here is what I think we are doing that is just and here are cases where we have been unjust."
You've been given opportunities to think beyond "using any weapon at your disposal to kill Palestinians" to discuss causes, current state of the situation, alternative actions and eventual outcomes for establishing a sustainable peace.
All you could come up with is reasons to kill Palestinians and to say they don't want anything better than what they have.
You are more literate than Palestinians I've chatted with. You are more organized in your thinking and less vile in your descriptions of how you will kill...
...but I hear only blind defense of Isreal....not genuine capacity for an internal moral dialog in your mind.
I'll send soldiers to die in the Middle East because it suits our strategic interests. We'll pay Israel billions of dollars to keep you propped up as our guard dog at the mouth of the Suez and a beachhead to launch attacks from as when the Suez was retaken from Egypt int he 1950s...but, I'd like to see that you have a greater capacity for maintaining moral perspective in addition to simply being smart, efficient administrators and good killers.
I do wish we would let our guard dogs off the leash more. I think if we would let you take Lebanon right up to the Syrian border it would save us a lot of trouble. Of course, we're going to keep you from bombing Iran because well, they are strategically important to us as eventual allies. As soon as there is a regime change and we get access to the Caspian Sea oil reserves they have, we'll want to be in the position to tell you and the Saudis to take a hike. letting you bomb Iran would create so much tension between us and Iran that it would delay our getting to the Caspian Sea oil by another 50 years....
And, if the Russians make a deal with them first, then that bottles up too much of the world's oil under Russian control. So...given that Israel will eventually have limited strategic interest to us...if we are going to continue to support you, it will be for purely moral reasons...
I'd like to see the capacity for balance in your moral reasoning before I decide to send more boys to die on your behalf.-
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Thinker2210 months, 1 week ago
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>You've been given opportunities to think beyond...
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So were you, Mr. Sierra. Instead of trying to analyze my personal abilities or inabilities it would be way more productive for you to suggest BETTER ways to solve the Middle East conflict than the ways Israel is using.
If, however, you're unable to offer BETTER ways to solve the Middle East conflict it means that the ways Israel is using are the BEST ways you know. It makes little sense to complain that the BEST is not good enough.-
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BravoSierra10 months, 1 week ago
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Thank you. To support you the world has to hear you ask that question of yourselves continually...is there a better way, in what way am I perpetuating this, what are alternative ways to remove my enemy's will to fight...etc.
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I've pointed out similarities between you and Palestinians I've chatted with but there is one major difference...the Palestinians never stop and ask that question: "Is there a better way?" They just keep spewing vile ways of killing Israelis. So, I don't support them.
But I can empathize with them. I believe every parent wants his/her child to be able to flourish. The children of the men you kill are as terrified as your children are when a rocket kills someone in Israel. There is nothing good about that.
In my opinion it is wrong to kill but if you have to kill it is doubly wrong to do it without a complete awareness of what you have done.
When the English became "Anglican" then slaughtered tens of thousands of Irish Catholic men and sent 60,000 of their women and children to Barbados to be breeding stock for the slave trade...please do not lower yourselves to English standards.
The Irish have as much reason to want English dead as the Palestinians want you dead...but when investments in developing Irish trade and manufacturing capabilities reduced the unemployment rate to 2%...the Irish decided the IRA was causing more trouble than it was worth and turned on them.
Your solution lies in forming equitable trade and development partnerships with groups of Palestinians. It took the Irish almost two decades of investing in education and infrastructure to be prepared for joining the modern world. Now, they are so interwoven into British economics and commerce that men who were taught to hate and kill one another as children are friends and business partners.
Your solution lies there...your problem lies in the fact that Israel was established as a place where Jews would not only be safe (they are safe in America) but where they would be more equal. The path starts with a joint commission to acknowledge wrongs committed on both sides the sort of path South Africa has taken to end their problems. You give people a voice and hope that it will be heard in a way that will lead to changes.
Maybe Islam is too defective of a religion to be sustainable in a peaceful world without the moderate clerics rewriting Muslim cannon as they have began to do. If that is the case we'll have to kill them. But these things tend to be self-fulfilling. Israel has the resources to work this out and to ensure the Palestinians have some hope. It's just good to check from time to time that you have the moral resources to do the right thing and kill only when you have to instead of out of habit.
Thank you for asking.-
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Thinker2210 months, 1 week ago
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>Your solution lies in forming equitable trade and development partnerships with groups of Palestinians.
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Unfortunately, this can only be implemented AFTER the fighting stopped, not BEFORE it. If was already tried (and failed) when Israel and the Palestinians signed the Oslo accords back in 1993. During the years following Oslo Israel invested heavily in Palestinian trade, infrastructure, partnership, etc. It did not work and it could not work for the simple reason the Palestinian leaders were not interested in peace. This brings us back to my question about the ways to solve the Middle East conflict.
In my opinion, peace can only be achieved when BOTH sides are ABLE AND WILLING to negotiate a peace agreement. As of now Palestinian leaders are UNWILLING AND UNABLE to do it.
Palestinian leaders are professional terrorists able to kill and destroy but not to build and create. The know it. They know that they're unable to run a state (as it was proven by the painful years of Hamas administration in Gaza). They know that they will not be needed in case peace will be achieved so they're doing everything in their abilities to prolong and intensify the conflict.
With all due respect Israel can not make the Palestinian leaders peaceful. Only the Palestinians themselves, the Palestinian PEOPLE can do it. This means that the only realistic way to achieve peace is to CONVINCE the Palestinian people that peace is preferable over a war. The WORST way to do it is to respond to terrorism with perks. If Israel (or the US or any other country) would GIVE the terrorist leaders money (food, trade, jobs, etc.) in response to terrorism the only reasonable (and correct) conclusion these people would make would be that terrorism works and more terrorism would bring more perks. Yes, GIVING the Palestinians perks was tried after Oslo and failed miserably in Camp David seven years later. It is painfully obvious that a peaceful solution can not be achieved as long as one side is willing the war to continue and the war will continue for as long as the Palestinians have a hope that one day they'll succeed to destroy Israel.-
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BravoSierra10 months, 1 week ago
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You probably won't convince the Palestinian people of anything if you use undo force.
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I see that Hamas has fired on Israel again despite the cease fire. You have two choices as I see it...1, you declare total war, crush and occupy and rebuilt Gaza...or, you criminalize the terrorist behavior and stop calling it a war. The problem is mixing metaphors. If you are going to call it a war, declare total war, crush and occupy the territory, take responsibility for rebuilding the infrastructure the way the US did in Germany and Japan and expect to have to take 50 years educating and resocializing Palestinian children the way Mao resocialized China. OR, go back to truly surgical execution of terrorists.
By mixing metaphors you just create more terrorists and more dysfunctional children who will grow up to have no skills and to be sociopaths.
The hope of destroying Israll is irrelevant. It's not a cause, it is a consequence.
Either way, right now your morality is incomplete. Half measures either way fail to work. You either declare total war, kill 150,000 to 200,000 Palestinians, move in with your army and occupy the territory and rebuild a civilized society or you stop calling this a war and go back to how you used to handle the problem. Right now, you have a self-fulling cycle of creating more and more terrorists. The proof is in the fruit of the tree so to speak.
The purpose of military action is to destroy the enemy's will to fight. Your methods have failed to do that for nearly 60 years.
You give them freedom, you let them succeed at developing a nation and if they attack you you utterly destroy them. But Israelis can't take a stand. One year you want a two state solution so you can do this and the next you use Hamas' behavior as a reason to maintain a single state...the result is a ghetto that even a normal child will grow up in prepared to hate and kill you.
What a mess.
Personally, we should have let you take all of Lebanon and all the other territory from Egypt to Syria. But your solution has never worked. You take Gaza, you occupy it, you live with the casualties of occupying it and you live there and rebuild civilization for the next 50 years. But you have to pick a single morality and stick with it start to finish. Israel waffles on this issue as much as any one.-
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Thinker2210 months, 1 week ago
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>You give them freedom, you let them succeed at developing a nation and if they attack you you utterly destroy them.
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Israel gave them freedom and let hem multiple opportunities to develop a nation. Unfortunately, Israel could not and can not force them to succeed against their will. Now, according to your theory, Israel should "utterly destroy" them. Unfortunately, killing tens or even hundreds of thousands of Palestinian Arabs will still leave millions of them alive. This means that your recommendation is an impractical one.
> But Israelis can't take a stand. One year you want a two state solution so you can do this and the next you use Hamas' behavior as a reason to maintain a single state...
This is not true. Israel always wanted a two-state solution. It were the Palestinians and other Arabs who refused and continue to refuse it because one of these two states will be Israel. Please realize that Israel can OFFER them a two-state solution but it can not shove it to the Palestinian collective throat against their will.
> ...the result is a ghetto that even a normal child will grow up in prepared to hate and kill you.
I'm not sure what your definition of "ghetto" is but if Mexico or Canada decided to launch thousands of terrorist attacks killing thousands of Americans the US would close its borders with such "wonderful" neighbor as well. Palestinians are free to go to any place on the planet except Israel. Does it look like a "ghetto" to you?
>Personally, we should have let you take all of Lebanon and all the other territory from Egypt to Syria.
Israel did not and does not need or want these territories. This is the main reason Israel never attempted to "take" them. All it wants is to live in peace with its neighbors, NOT to "rebuild" their civilizations. It's THEIR job.
>But your solution has never worked.
I have to disagree. It worked every single time Arab states or Islamist organizations initiated a war. If Israel lost one single war there would be no Israel. For peace, however, the will of BOTH sides is needed.
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BravoSierra10 months, 1 week ago
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Everyone adopts the psychological theory of behavioralism with the Palestinians....the you cannot reward terrorism approach. It's been proven wrong with children, it may well be wrong with groups of people. The problem with punishment is that it drives the bad behavior to zero...for a while...but when the behavior begins again it resumes as the same level that it let off at. Treating people like rats in a Skinner Box allows for no growth or dignity. The question is...what is the payoff for the Palestinians for having peace? Two crumbs of bread instead of one? I'd laugh in your face over such an offer.
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You are great at marketing yourselves and agendas in the US...maybe you should market hope to these Palestinian people you are trying to convince.
I agree the Palestinian leaders are professional terrorists. So kill them and market hope to a new crop of people. Offer education to a new crop, train some administrators and leaders. You have great leadership training courses in your military. But, when your methods terrorize the children and adolescents in Gaza...you're just going to create another crop of unskilled secondary psychopaths. where is the gain in that?-
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Thinker2210 months, 1 week ago
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>The question is...what is the payoff for the Palestinians for having peace?
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The payoff? PEACE!
> Two crumbs of bread instead of one? I'd laugh in your face over such an offer.
The amount of bread will not change, Mr. Sierra. Peace can not and should not be purchased. As long as the Palestinians continue refusing peace they'll continue to have a war. Many of them will continue to be killed and less will be left to laugh over peace offers... but let me ask you what is the payoff for the Israelis for having peace, in your opinion?
> ..maybe you should market hope to these Palestinian people you are trying to convince.
I do. I'm constantly telling them that if they'll force their violent leaders to negotiate a peace agreement they'll have a chance to live peaceful and prosperous lives in their own state. If not they'll die in suffering and misery.
>So kill them and market hope to a new crop of people. Offer education to a new crop, train some administrators and leaders.
Unfortunately, Israel does not have those magic weapons needed to kill bad guys only and it does not have the unlimited resources needed to "offer", "train" and otherwise babysit Palestinian Arabs. The job of Israeli government is to assure peace and security for Israeli citizens and defend their country, not to educate and train foreign populations and foreign leaders.
>your methods terrorize the children and adolescents in Gaza...you're just going to create another crop of unskilled secondary psychopaths. where is the gain in that?
What are the methods of Hamas and Hezbollah creating in Israel, in your opinion? Why do you assume that Israelis are superhumans or angels? Why do you think that Israelis (unlike any other country in similar situation) would "give" and "train" its enemies while these enemies murder Israeli men, women and children?
Unlike you, I KNOW that Israelis are mere humans, not angels. Unlike you, I know that the Palestinian Arabs are also humans, not infantile violent morons unable to take responsibility for their actions. It's THEM (the Palestinian PEOPLE) who will chose their leaders, not Israel and it's THEM (the Palestinian PEOPLE) who will be responsible for their actions.
You're mistaken if you believe that those fighting for their lives, defending their families and their country have a goal to "punish" the aggressors. The goal is to end the aggression.-
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Thinker2210 months, 1 week ago
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I'll take is as an admission that you're unable to produce anything better, Mr. Sierra. You were incapable to answer any of my questions while I've answered all of yours.
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Most people who KNOW but do not have the honesty to ADMIT that they're wrong start shouting insults. It makes them feel better. This tactic works at a kindergarten level ("You're stupid!" "No, you're even more stupid!") but it is not very effective at the elementary school.
I do not use it myself and I'm not impressed when others try to use it on me. I do not call my opponent an idiot. I prefer to help him or her to arrive to this conclusion on his/her own.
Have a nice day!
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Thinker2210 months, 1 week ago
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>...with all due respect, it's quite likely that I've buried more comrades defending your interests in the Middle East than you have...
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I doubt it, Mr. Sierra. You don't know me, you don't know what my interests are and you don't know how many comrades I've buried. In addition, I can assure you that not a single foreign soldier ever participated in Israeli wars on the Israeli side.
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ChefEOD10 months, 2 weeks ago
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Are you unaware of the hundreds of millions of dollars the world and the US have poured into the Palestinian coffers? And where did it all go? Into the personal bank accounts of the leaders of the PLO and most recently grabbed up by Hamas and used to build those tunnels and underground bunkers and fill them with weapons all for the express purpose of continuing the war and to push onward to the goal of eliminating Israel.
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dissent10 months, 2 weeks ago
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are you aware of the billions we pour every single year into israel along with everything the military industrial complex can think of?
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whatever hamas has it's still just slingshots compared to israel's arsenal. something we can be proud of now that they're using it all to beat up a people who don't even have a country-
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BravoSierra10 months, 2 weeks ago
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We've poured billions into Israel to be the guard dogs of the Suez and Red Sea Trade Route. The Israelis like to pretend that they've done it all themselves but without Britain and the US propping them up for these few decades they would not have survived. So, we play the Saudis and other tribes in the area against Israel and in the reverse so we can make corporate profits from Arab Oil, use the Israelis to keep the Arabs from putting a strangle hold on us, and keep our strategic dependency on oil safe from the Russians and Arabs starving us to death by choking off our oil supplies.
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Don't fool yourselves, the other Arab nations and the US benefit by keeping the conflict alive. No one wants peace. We'll pull our guard dog off the Palestinians when it looks like they might win because the Arabs tell us to and we let the Arabs arm Hamas to shove the balance of power over the Red Sea Trade Route back in their favor. The real battle is between us and the OPEC nations and Russia. The Palestinians and Israelis are both paid to be pawns in the struggle. The Israelis just don't mind too much because they got the A-bomb from Britain, free air force and military bases and technology from the US and they live pretty well. The Palestinians on the other hand are paid by the other Arab nations just enough to keep the Israelis contained. The Saudis sure as hell don't want to be paying a toll to the Israelis for passage of their oil through the Suez. They'd rather covertly finance terrorist groups to contain Israel.
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panyc101010 months, 2 weeks ago
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People seem to think it sounds intelligent to bash the bible and or god but the fact of the matter, and I don't care if you pray to Barney the purple dinosaur, is that the reason the U.S. supports Israel is religious and Biblical. Because of your own religious convictions or lack thereof you're preventing yourself from understanding anything. No matter what your stand is on religion, faith, god whatever, don't let that prevent you from picking up the torah or the bible and reading the history. Even if you don't base YOUR policy and opinions on the bible, our government does, we could all afford to know the biblical history that shows why we are in bed with israel.
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gamahuche10 months, 2 weeks ago
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You're right that knowing it is a good idea.
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Unfortunately, however, it does nothing to make the current situation even remotely tolerable.
The unquestioning support of the US for Israel is based on dark and hidden secrets and has something of the nature of a hidden coup.
This very insistent paid poster is also part of the problem and not part of the solution.
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fempatriot10 months, 2 weeks ago
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The USA has always used propaganda to keep USA citizens in the dark, but since OUR Israeli occupation, the propaganda mill has worked day and night to demonize all Arabs and Muslims and to make us think that Israel actually is our friend. Nothing could be further from the truth. On June 5, 1967, the Israeli air force attacked the USS Liberty, an AMERICAN intelligence gathering ship, and bombed and strafed the ship for hours, killing 34 American sailors and wounding over a hundred more. Why? Because Israel was starting its 6-day war and didn't want the USA to learn of it. They intended for it to look as if the Egyptians had attacked us, but luckily the Liberty managed to stay afloat and survive. President Lyndon Johnson covered up the crime and forbade Liberty survivors to talk. Because he knew Americans would stop supporting Israel if they knew what s.o.b.s the Israelis really were. And he needed Jewish votes. But Liberty survivors are still alive--and can finally tell the truth about Israel. This is just one tale of Israeli rottenness.
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JonathonVero10 months, 2 weeks ago
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McClatchy POLL ?? NEVER HEARD OF IT. DID ANYONE SEE 60 MINUTES ON SUNDAY. THE ISREAL'S DROPPING PHOSPROUS BOMBS ON PALISTIANS AND BURNING HUNDREDS OF WOMAN AND CHILDREN. IS THAT HUMANE ??
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THE REASON WE'RE IN THE TROUBLE WHERE IN WITH THE ARAB WORLD IS BECAUSE WE ALWAYS SUPPORT ISREAL, RIGHT OR WRONG WE'VE NEVER GONE AGAINST ANY OF THEIR ACTIONS. GEE, I WONDER WHY ??-
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Lincoln8510 months, 2 weeks ago
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Is that humane? I don't know if this story is true, but I can take it in this direction, if phsophorus bombs were being dropped on hitler and his ilk, most rational people that recognize the amount of destruction evil people bring would approve. Any religion like Islam that promotes the slaughter of their enemies (either we convert them or kill them) has to be evil. I will gladly accept the worst case scenario then bow down to some fictional god that wants us to blow Jews up. I am not a Jew but nor will I fall in line with the feministic American men that embrace political correctness and the embrace of an evil religion like Islam.
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Lincoln8510 months, 2 weeks ago
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So dissent...I guess if in some crazy universe where Islam ruled...I guess you would go ahead and support their view that if you don't believe in what we do..then we have to kill you. What difference does it make with age. The Hitler youth of the 40's would kill you...no problem because of the hate they were taught.
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Using age is a good tactic for empathy...but let us get serious. Some of these people are teaching their toddlers to be suicide bombers. You can't negotiate with these people.-
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dissent10 months, 2 weeks ago
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i'll repeat what i've always said about religion. they're all bullsh*t. hope that's clear enough for ya. the rest of your stuff is the average pap propaganda but with the same consistency as baby food. we teach our kids to shoot guns at muslims except we're, ahem.... right, right?
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Lincoln8510 months, 1 week ago
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I guess that beats bowing down to them and doing whatever their bidding is. I don't really view Islam as a religion but as a political stance, so in that light, I hope you still think they are full of BS. Us teaching our kids to shoot kids at muslims is quite a stretch, what isn't a stretch, is muslim toddlers taught to hate Jews and Americans and to kill them is heroic. You would be one of the first Americans to embrace an Islamic takeover. Shame on you for having no personal principles and being the first to be a turncoat for outside influences.
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How disgraceful!
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gamahuche10 months, 2 weeks ago
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For some more interesting data may I suggest:
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http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1180527...
and accompanying story on propeller:http://www.propeller.com/story/2009/01/1... -
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gamahuche10 months, 2 weeks ago
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And also:
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http://atheonews.blogspot.com/2009/01/facts-about-...
and prop story:http://www.propeller.com/story/2009/01/14/th...
Now that I seem to have managed to post both of these: they are far more germane to what is going on in Gaza than anythoing that you wil hear from this paid shill for the Israeli government.-
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Edmar1410 months, 2 weeks ago
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Unless you have been living under a rock, most of the "paid shill" that is coming out of Gaza is from Hamas . One thing that is known for a fact (as you can tell from the fatah members who found themselves being thrown off of the rooftops when the two were at odds in Gaza) is that Hamas controls the Gaza strip with an iron hand. All of the hospital personnel as well as EMT's, medics and reporters are under the watchful eye of Hamas, and you know what happens to those who don't follow Hamas' instruction. They end up falling off or buildings or worse. Ever see a dead child on a stretcher move? A Fox newscaster wanted to know about that too. It's hard for a 7 year old to stay completely still as instructed, I would guess. This same tactic was used in Lebanon during the war in 2006. Pictures were doctored and video was choreographed. Thank goodness the internet savvy people noticed the handiwork of Photoshop. First get the facts, then you can distort them anyway that you please. Thank you Mark Twain.
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ahsiamami10 months, 2 weeks ago
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OH My Blazing StarZ!!!! It's ALL HORRENDOUS!!!! NOBODIES WINNING!!! people are just dying and being injured...Horribly! This conflict is so ludicrous! You're born where you're born, and you live where u live! It's frightful that so many STILL allow "religion" and false senses of "superiority" to lead us into violence and destruction! Hey, we're all we have, globally speaking, and we're riding a chaotic ride of uncertain calamity that's speeding out of control!!! "Quick!, grab the reigns!" If those who participated in this "poll" had been able to have a firsthand view of the carnage and abject loss of homes and loved ones, I think the results would have been decidedly different...We shouldn't get to comfy in our "upper hand" status, you know, that pretend security blanket we hide under? It also depends on who they asked in the first place. It goes without question that a large number of "Americans" are yet in "sheep" mode, lost in this violent nightmare of macabre masquerading...come on humans, let's speed up this collective consciousness thing already!!! Peace & Blessings One & All~
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Midwest710 months, 2 weeks ago
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Thanks to hyperbola and others who make some sense [though I have not read their every comment].
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So-called Israeligirl is obviously extremely bias, she probably would support even mass murder of children [opp's, that's what Israel is doing now ! ]
I've generally supported Israel for many years, the country and especially the current generation has not found itself in an easy situation. A narrow land surrounded by apparent enemies who outnumber them many times.
BUT extreme Zionism has MADE the situation WORSE !!!
They keep taking Arab land, building settlements, and making life difficult for Arabs! They clearly are making it much worse not just for Israel BUT ALSO FOR THE US !
Support Peace Now and similar organizations. ONLY with reasonable compromise will the people of this area live in peace. As it's been said many times you must talk with your enemies and give them some respect, no matter how difficult.
I ask fellow Americans to call and write Congress and Obama to tell them to stop our knee-jerk support of Israel, no matter what they do [including often with US weapons and aid, which we can not afford any more, we are broke from Bush's stupid Iraq War !!$$$$]
Only then will Israel's politican's stand up to their own extremists!-
marksmant02Comment removed: Hard Banned1 Reply
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Midwest710 months, 2 weeks ago
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Let's also know that extremism is not only alive in Islamic lands, and there is too much of it, supported by the rather narrow-minded version of Saudi Arabia.
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Extremism is also very strong in Israel. They have taken land from many Arabs, and killed or wounded many, including children! Including Christian Arabs, not that it should matter!
Extremeist Jews actually ran a bulldozer over an Amrican woman trying to protect an Arab home! Can you imagine this horrible scene, was this part of the Jewish term, menich [sp?], for being a human being? Could a real human run a large heavy machine over the body of a mere protester?
I have hated extremism in Islam, Christianity [as in Republican war-mongering], and Judism is no different. The terrible things done to Jews in World War 2 can NEVER justify a culture going mad and spreading blood !!!-
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cherev10 months, 2 weeks ago
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"Extremeist Jews actually ran a bulldozer over an Amrican woman trying to protect an Arab home!"
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Boy do you have your facts wrong. The American woman was a terrorist supporter and it was one Jew who accidentally ran over her because he didn't know she was there. The home the terrorist supporter was protecting was used by the terrorists she supported to murder Jews.
"Could a real human run a large heavy machine over the body of a mere protester?"
Yes. Accidents happen. Even to terrorist supporters.-
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dissent10 months, 2 weeks ago
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"Boy do you have your facts wrong. The American woman was a terrorist supporter and it was one Jew who accidentally ran over her because he didn't know she was there. The home the terrorist supporter was protecting was used by the terrorists she supported to murder Jews."
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you couldn't be further from the facts if you tried.
her name was rachel corrie. she was part of a group of international protesters who were trying to obstruct israeli defense force demolitions of palestinian homes near the egyptian border that were suspected of being involved in smuggling into gaza.
two thirds of gaza's food is smuggled in. one third goes through israeli controlled checkpoints. without smuggling palestinians would have to survive on two thirds less than they already do and as such they are already deprived of food and medications
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?ite...
she wasn't a terrorist. she was a 23 year old college kid from olympia, washington
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Midwest710 months, 2 weeks ago
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The comments of "people" like marksman02 show just how extreme, how hateful, some supporters of Israel have become.
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Dear marksman02 [and similar], do you consider yourself a decent human being?
Did the Arab family that lost not 1, or 2, or 3, or 4, but 5 little girls to the recent Israeli attack deserve any respect, any sorrow?
I've wept many times watching films about the suffering of Jews, like Ann Frank, or Exodus; I've seen them many times, I can tell you the details like of the constant worry Ann suffered when a truck would drive by their street where they hid.
Or how the Israeli team was killed at the Olympics, and the excellent Spillberg film on the hunting down of these killers [except that apparently some assassinated were innocent!] Or how some Jews opposed but respected the British who tried to keep peace in post-war Palenstein, other's killed them even though they had suffered greatly fighting Hitler!
But my sympathy, and I hope America's, has a limit, and it's about to be reached. I've been to Arab countries, most people are peaceful, even modest. I'm finding this less and less true for so-called supporter's of Israel unfortunately.
You can not kill all the Arabs, the wise course is to MAKE PEACE !
Otherwise someday you will have helped to create so many extremist's that a simple dirty bomb of some sort will hit Israel, one or a few will be enough to hurt a large part of the population! But if you REALLY seek compromise with the Arabs then there's a good chance moderates will find those people and stop them, otherwise they may not care! -
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ConsAreNonGrata10 months, 2 weeks ago
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I don't know. People keep asking would I put up with rockets being shot into my country.
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I ask who would put up with being a 70% majority in a land where the other 30% who owns 8% of the land is suddenly given sovereignty over 56% of the land. And the total amount has only increased.
Jews and Arabs living side by side for around thirteen centuries and then what happens? Some Brits think they have some right to declare "a homeland" for an ethnic group.
Too bad Hitler bluffed Britain so badly. If the British had only been so forceful with the Germans as they had with the Arabs, then we might have avoided that whole WWII thing, or at least a Nazi induced Holocaust. -
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7mosaic710 months, 2 weeks ago
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People should not kill other people! Banks kill and play people like game for profit! Prepare to what is coming at home! Here is one site i use to get my emergency stuff: emergency preparedness supplies
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God Be with you! -
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sdgarvey10 months, 2 weeks ago
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NO! I am not for these horrible attacks on any side!! I say this time and time, again and again, people PLEASE don't believe what you are being told. Use your heads. Think......what do we really know about either of these situations? We ALWAYS here Israels side NEVER Palestine.....ever.
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So......How many Palistinians (spelling) can add a post or column in our newspapers? How many of these people talk to us from behind news desks or out on the street with a microphone!
COME ON PEOPLE........How can we say we are for one side or the other, how???
We are told by many Jewish people what is going on. UhMMMMMM......that seems to be bias. However.......I withhold judgment over anyone because as a non Jew or Palastianian (sp) person I will never know what is what or who really is the "bad guy"!!! -
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vandeewine-5310 months, 2 weeks ago
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BOTH sides are equally responsible for this massive mess. Both sides think they've been wronged and that they are 100% right. Both sides are loaded with crazy hardliners and over-reactionaries.
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The only way this will ever be solved is if cooler heads on both sides prevail, they get rid of the crazies on both sides, and they all sit down and work it out. There's no military solution to this one. If there were, it would have been solved a long time ago. -
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gswynter10 months, 2 weeks ago
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The extremists live in your country and then attacak when called forth. They destroy your buildings and homes, hijack the airplanes, kill thousands of innocent people, behead them for the sport and show it on TV and then when they are getting their asses kicked they cry foul and march in the streets to halt the bombings on their people. They teach their children to hate and put those down that do not practice the same religion. Spare us all the bull and GO ISREAL. KICK BUTT.
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qantumreflection10 months, 2 weeks ago
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I am supporter of Israel on many issues. Particularly that it seeks peace with Palestinians. But peace can only be achieved with parties who agree that violence must stop, and talking must start. Many Palestinians agree at least those who side with Fatah. Hamas unfortunately, holds sway in the Gaza strip.
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This is a politcal group that gives money, food and shelter to those who will support it and fight for it. No support, means a slow starving death. Oppose and you get instant death, as in being beheaded or thrown off a roof. So many, are given a choice that is impossible but must be taken.
Yes Israel is causing much of the devastation, but only in light of YEARS of constant violence. Tho this wont mitigate all of the responsibility, Hamas is at the root of it and bears most of it.
War is never easy, clean or completely surgical, but it is time for Israel to stop. It must take the high road after stumbling a bit off it.
Be a mensch, Israel.-
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BravoSierra10 months, 2 weeks ago
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Israel is over two hundred years behind the US proposition in the Declaration of Independence that all men are created equal and have been imbued by their creator of the same and equal unalienable rights.... They are over 400 years behind the Catholic Church which did away with the concept of Divine Right in the 1600s and established this as a component of international law.
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Israel does not value the moral high road. They are as elitist and racist as anyone that has ever persecuted them. It just took them a few centuries to relearn how to be good killers after the Romans took them down. I respect their military skills but their constitution is the moral low-road. You cannot claim to be a democracy and a Jewish state at the same time and not have a deeply rooted racist and supremecist attitude.
We have to support Israel strategically because of their position as a beachhead to retake control of the Red Sea Trade Route. But US Citizens are mistaken if they believe we have shared democratic values. We've elected an African-American to the Presidency. When Israeli citizens who are not Jews start to get too much power...the Israelis order their political parties disbanded....
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Natureboy10 months, 2 weeks ago
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Israel's propaganda machine rolls on-
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http://www.prwatch.org/node/8112
Meanwhile, Israeli opposition to the aggression against Gaza mounts, and Israel sics its intelligence network on antiwar activists-
http://www.consortiumnews.com/2009/010909b.html -
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BravoSierra10 months, 2 weeks ago
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I've been mistakenly accused of being "Pro-Palestinian".
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Please go read the Israeli constitution. It states that Israel is a "democratic and Jewish state".
These two conditions are incompatible. I do not support Palestinians as much as I'm willing to be honest that Israel is an ally of financial and strategic convenience. Logically and morally, their charter and constitution is the enemy of the US Declaration of Independence, US Constitution and US Bill of Rights.
We declared all men equal. We have pursued that sucessfully for over 200 years. We have freed slaves, we have given non-land holders, minorities and women voting and equal rights under the law. We've elected a man with African-American heritage to the Presidency.
Ask an Israeli what they would do if Israeli citizens of Arab, non-Jewish descent gained a majority in the Israeli legislative body....
They will tell you they would never allow that to happen. That they would imprison, deport, revoke voting rights, revoke the rights of Israeli citizens of non-Jewish religious believes the ability to run for public office, etc.
Arab countries are not the only ones still operating with Medieval belief systems in the Middle East. The Israeli Jews are a prejudiced and oppresive any anyone over there, they just happen to be picked by the US and Britain to be our guard dogs at the mouth of the Suez and the Red Sea Trade Route. Not because they are more 'liberal' minded, hold US values, etc...they just happen to be better, more efficient and more violent killers....better guard dogs.
A 100 to 1 kill ratio is pretty good seeing as about 100 Palestinians have been killed for every Israeli killed in this skirmish.-
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memestryker10 months, 2 weeks ago
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The Israelis are such a small number that I can see their issue with opening it up to an open majority--it would soon be filled with Muslims, since they make up most of the people in the region, and Sharia would quickly follow.
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The U.S. still hasn't achieved equal rights under the law, but we've done a better job than Israel or any Muslim country. Theocracies by definition have inherent issues that prevent them from embracing freedoms.
Regression to the ancient is common, and people cling to culture, so it's going to be a long time before we see any potential long-term resolution. -
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BravoSierra10 months, 2 weeks ago
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I'm not Pro-Palestinian but I'm not going to lie to myself about the high morals and virtues of the Israelis either...
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The purpose of military action is to destroy the enemy's will to fight and return them to the negotiation table. The only moral purpose of negotiations is equitable trade arrangements that allow for the life-liberty-and pursuit of happiness of all peoples involved.
Neither the Israelis nor the Palestinians is particularly interested in our US values that all humans are equal in the eyes of God or Christian values around the Golden Rule.
At a certain point you cannot destroy the will to fight with force...you have to offer the hope of something worth living for and cooperating to achieve. -
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BravoSierra10 months, 2 weeks ago
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Ultimately, the morality of the Israeli actions can be measured by the fruit it bears. The purpose of military action is to destroy the enemy's will to fight and return them to negotiations. The purpose of moral negotiations is to achieve a favorable but mutually beneficial and sustainable trade agreement that allows both nations to flourish.
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This is the moral use of force and a moral outcome.
Are Israel's actions leading to a decrease in the Palestinian will to fight? If the rising unrest in the West Bank is an indication, the answer is no...but we'll have to see. If the Palestinians do return to negotiations, will Israel offer terms that allow both sides to flourish. We'll have to see.
Even if Israel offers a moral solution the Palestinians may reject it. But this test isn't about the Palestinians...it's about the morality of the Israelis.
In my mind they have two options. Adopt the morality of Total War and crush and decimate the Palestinians until they are willing to accept any terms to stop being killed. Then the Israelis will be on the hook to offer moral terms. Or, the Israelis can continue to put the Palestinians in an untennable situation where they must live in a ghetto or be killed. Or, they can return to the appropriate levels of force used in the days when they sent their operatives in to excute key threats without creating unacceptable collateral damage that is excessive given that Hamas is never very effective at killing Israelis.
A kill ratio of 100:1 where most of the people killed are civilians strikes me as excessive. -
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BravoSierra10 months, 2 weeks ago
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Ultimately, the morality of the Israeli actions can be measured by the fruit it bears. The purpose of military action is to destroy the enemy's will to fight and return them to negotiations. The purpose of moral negotiations is to achieve a favorable but mutually beneficial and sustainable trade agreement that allows both nations to flourish.
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This is the moral use of force and a moral outcome.
Are Israel's actions leading to a decrease in the Palestinian will to fight? If the rising unrest in the West Bank is an indication, the answer is no...but we'll have to see. If the Palestinians do return to negotiations, will Israel offer terms that allow both sides to flourish. We'll have to see.
Even if Israel offers a moral solution the Palestinians may reject it. But this test isn't about the Palestinians...it's about the morality of the Israelis.
In my mind they have two options. Adopt the morality of Total War and crush and decimate the Palestinians until they are willing to accept any terms to stop being killed. Then the Israelis will be on the hook to offer moral terms. Or, the Israelis can continue to put the Palestinians in an untennable situation where they must live in a ghetto or be killed. Or, they can return to the appropriate levels of force used in the days when they sent their operatives in to excute key threats without creating unacceptable collateral damage that is excessive given that Hamas is never very effective at killing Israelis.
A kill ratio of 100:1 where most of the people killed are civilians strikes me as excessive. -
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Daylight9 months, 3 weeks ago
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American public backs Israel firmly in war with Hamas
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Well, they are ignorant and stupid to support Israeli Zionist occupiers, will they support if someone occupy America in the name of chosen people? They should call on the American government to dismantle Israel immediately because this is a fascist state of Hitler.
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