Dismay as Pope Welcomes back Excommunicated Holocaust Denier »
Posted By Spadecaller 10 months ago in NewsOver the weekend the Pope issued a decree welcoming back into the Roman Catholic Church Richard Williamson, 68, and three other breakaway bishops excommunicated by John Paul II in 1988. Catholics fear it will deal a fatal blow to the inter-faith dialogue promoted by his predecessor.
Mr Williamson, 68, a holocaust denier who is the rector of the Seminary of Our Lady Co-Redemptrix in La Reja, Argentina, has endorsed "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion", a notorious anti-Semitic forgery, and claimed that Jews are bent on world domination. He supports conspiracy theories blaming Jews for the assassination of President Kennedy and the attacks on the Twin Towers in New York.
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Spadecaller
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Spadecaller10 months ago
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What is wrong with Pope Benedict? Has he not offended enough people on this earth yet? Considering his own past in Nazi Germany - he pretends to have never noticed the Jews being sent to the concentration camp in his small town. This is beyond the scope of comprehension.
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My Catholic friends say that it's people like this Pope that have driven them and many others away from the Catholic church. I don't know how extensive that sentiment is here in the USA, but I do know from my wife's family in Italy that they are disgusted with this Pope.
It appears that his failure to distance himself from Nazism is not just a rumor.-
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Spadecaller10 months ago
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On Saturday, the Vatican spokesman, the Rev. Federico Lombardi, said Williamson's views were "absolutely indefensible." But he then denied that rehabilitating Williamson implied that the Vatican shared them.
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What a crock!
Knowing that Williamson's views about Jews are "absoluteluy indefensible" should give Pope Benedict reason to uphold former Pope John's past decision to excommunicate them, even if their excommunication was for unrelated reasons.
The fact that the Vatican is willing to support their own clergy who are involved in sexual abuse of children or promoters of antisemitism is "absolutely indefensible."
Again, this is an example how the teachings of Christ are perceived more as an interference with the business of the church and the politics of the Vatican. -
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Spadecaller10 months ago
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Spadecaller10 months ago
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NPR has this excellent audio file that provides a good background on this recent decision. I do not believe this was an act of peace or an attempt to bring resolve within the church. This act is a disaster and will result in great animosity especially between Jews and the Vatican today.
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http://www.npr.org/templates/player/mediaPlayer.ht...-
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earthlingerer10 months ago
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Fortunately, for the bishop as well as the Pope, the excommunication had nothing to do with the bishops stated knowledge/belief of the facts of the Holocaust™.
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So, this is a church matter relevant to the catholic church and no other entity. Imagine if the US would have started to listen to foreign groups of people who might have opposed any government cooperation or involvement with Kissinger, arguably a mass murderer/criminal himself?
Considering that is is a church issue, why would the church bother to take any lip from "do as I say, not as I do" groups, jewish or not?
Better yet, lets see if the German government has the goods to try this guy in the future... or is that part of the whole orchestrated plan? -
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Spadecaller10 months ago
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I really could care less if someone is Jewish and condones, ignores, or accepts the endorsement of antisemitic Bishops in the Vatican.
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For that matter, I have met antisemitic Jews; and that does not change my opinion of antisemitism.
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Spadecaller10 months ago
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The damage of this act will compound the Pope's revival of the Tridentine Mass last year, with its Good Friday prayer for the conversion of the Jews.
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Relations between the church and world Jewry had been improving since the '65 Vatican II document Nostra Aetate, which included the statement: "The church deplores all hatreds, persecutions, displays of anti-Semitism leveled at any time or from any source against the Jews."
But the actions of Pope Benedict have continued to erode the progress that had been made. The question that remains foremost in my mind has more to do with those Catholics who know this is wrong and are choosing to remain silent about it.-
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hyperbola10 months ago
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No different than jews who choose to remain silent in the face of ethnic cleansing / genocide in Palestine. Simply shows the kinds of hypocrisy that arise when ideology is put ahead of the rightrs of individual human beings.
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The Old Testament and the Genocide in Gaza
...Interestingly enough, Israel regards itself as a secular state. Ehud Barak is not exactly a qualified Rabbi and Tzipi Livni is not a Rabbi’s wife. Accordingly, we are entitled to assume that it isn’t actually Judaism per se that directly transforms Israeli politicians and military leaders into war criminals. Moreover, early Zionists believed that within a national home Jews would become ‘people like all other people’, i.e., civilised and ethical. In that very respect, Israeli reality is pretty peculiar. The Hebraic secular Jews may have managed to drop their God, most of them do not follow Judaic law, they are largely secular, and yet they collectively interpret their Jewish identity as a genocidal mission. They have successfully managed to transform the Bible from being a spiritual text into a bloodsoaked land registry. They are there, in Zion i.e., Palestine, to invade the land and to lock up, starve and destroy its indigenous habitants. ..
... Seemingly, in the Jewish state, the Hebraic subject reverts to mass killing as soon as he finds a ‘name’ to associate with....
This doesn’t really leave us too much room for speculation. The Jewish state is the ultimate threat to humanity and our notion of humanism. Christianity, Islam and humanism came along with an attempt to amend Jewish tribal fundamentalism and to replace it with universal ethics. Enlightenment, liberalism and emancipation allowed Jews to redeem themselves from their ancient tribal supremacist traits. Since the mid 19th century, many Jews had been breaking out of their cultural and tribal chain. Tragically enough, Zionism managed to pull many Jews back in. Currently, Israel and Zionism are the only collective voice available for Jews.
The last twelve days of merciless offensive against the Palestinian civilian population does not leave any room for doubt. Israel is the gravest danger to world peace. Clearly the nations made a tragic mistake in 1947 giving a volatile racially orientated identity an opportunity to set itself into a national state. However, the nations’ duty now is to peacefully dismantle that state before it is too late. We must do it before the Jewish state and its forceful lobbies around the world manage to pull us all into a global war in the ‘name’ of one banal populist ideology or another (democracy, war against terror, cultural clash and so on). We have to wake up now before our one and only planet is transformed into a bursting boil of hatred.
(Gilad Atzmon was born in Israel and served in the Israeli military.)
http://www.propeller.com/story/2009/01/17/the-old-...
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cherev10 months ago
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"Catholics who fear it risks dealing a fatal blow to the inter-faith dialogue promoted by his predecessor."
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The benefits of "inter-faith" dialog are questionable. Where the Catholics going to impose another inquisition if it didn't take place?
"Renzo Gattegna, head of the Union of Jewish Communities in Italy, said the rehabilitation of Bishop Williamson was “terrible not only for Jewish people but for the whole of humanity”. He said that Italian Jews would refuse to take part in joint prayers with Christians on Tuesday marking Holocaust Day, known in Italy as “The Day of Memory”."
Big deal.
“The Church will pay a price for this” one Vatican prelate said. “The Pope is undermining the legacy of John Paul II.”
Obviously, that's what the Church wants to do. It's no one else's business.
"The Pope has made a openly declared and unshakeable anti-Semite a legitimate Bishop”.
The Church is being honest. What's wrong with that?
"Bishop Williamson, who has said that the Vatican is controlled by Satan and that the Jews are bent on world domination, reiterated in a broadcast last week on Swedish television that the historical evidence was “hugely against six million having been deliberately gassed in gas chambers as a deliberate policy of Adolf Hitler. I believe there were no gas chambers”.
Obviously, the Vatican feels this man is a true and good Catholic.
"This month Elia Enrico Richetti, the chief rabbi of Venice, said Jews had been deeply offended by the reintroduction by the Pope in March of a Good Friday Latin prayer for the conversion of the Jews as part of the revived Tridentine Mass. “We are moving toward the cancellation of 50 years of Church history” the rabbi said."
The Pope is bringing the Church back to its historic mission.
"The Vatican insists that Pius helped the Jews while avoiding public statements that would have made matters worse, and has demanded the removal of a plaque attacking him at the Yad Vashem Holocaust memorial in Jerusalem."
Well, sauce for the goose. If Jews should keep out of Church affairs, surely the Vatican should keep their noses out of Jewish business.
"The Pope ... recently declared that inter-religious dialogue “in the strict sense of the word” between Christians, Jews and Muslims was “not possible”."
That's true. There's nothing to discuss about the differences between the faiths. Mutual respect means that the Pope should be free to make decisions for the Church without comment by anyone outside the Catholic faith. As long as there's no violence, let it be. -
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Spadecaller10 months ago
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Some people do not seem to be concerned about this. However, I do not see much of a difference when militant Islamic terrorist teach their children hatred for Jews and Westerners. MY wife, who was raised as a Catholic, was taught to look down upon other religions -- especially those of us who were Jewish. The creation and spreading of bigotry is an insidious process.
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Only in recent years did the Vatican finally began to take some responsibility for the church's complicity and support of the Nazi regime during WWII. That was indeed a step in the right direction. And then, Pope John's elimination of the Tridentine Mass were positive steps that helped to bring greater understanding and greater respect between Jews and Catholics.
To consider these reversals as insignificant is a perspective that lacks insight and awareness -- to be polite about it.-
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hyperbola10 months ago
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What do you say when Israelis teach their children to hate christian and moslem Palestinians? Frankly your "campaign" would have more credibility if you would concentrate on addressing the hatreds promulgated by your "own tribe".
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Washington Report on Middle East Affairs
Special Report
Israeli Textbooks and Children’s Literature Promote Racism and Hatred Toward Palestinians and Arabs
Israeli school textbooks as well as children’s storybooks, according to recent academic studies and surveys, portray Palestinians and Arabs as “murderers,” “rioters,” “suspicious,” and generally backward and unproductive. Direct delegitimization and negative stereotyping of Palestinians and Arabs are the rule rather than the exception in Israeli schoolbooks.
Professor Daniel Bar-Tal of Tel Aviv University studied 124 elementary, middle- and high school textbooks on grammar and Hebrew literature, history, geography and citizenship. ....
http://www.wrmea.com/backissues/0999/9909019.html -
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Dionys10 months ago
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"Only in recent years did the Vatican finally began to take some responsibility for the church's complicity and support of the Nazi regime during WWII."
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Support? No. Complicity -- perhaps.
That said, it offered the 'Church' the opportunity to allow priests to hide Jews and get them out of the country since they held places in power -- while at the same time they could deny that those priests were acting under orders from the Church to do so.
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Spadecaller10 months ago
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The Pope also has the right to be a Nazi and pedophile enabler and to welcome excommunicated known anti-semites into the church.
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And those of us who disagree with the Vatican and its Pope have the right to denounce them for their actions and views. -
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cherev10 months ago
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"Some people do not seem to be concerned about this."
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I can't speak for others. However, I welcome it.
"However, I do not see much of a difference when militant Islamic terrorist teach their children hatred for Jews and Westerners."
Now, YOU'RE catching on.
"The creation and spreading of bigotry is an insidious process."
Which can be accomplished much easier when people are making nice.
"Only in recent years did the Vatican finally began to take some responsibility for the church's complicity and support of the Nazi regime during WWII."
Specifics, please. Beyond the lip service.
"And then, Pope John's elimination of the Tridentine Mass were positive steps that helped to bring greater understanding and greater respect between Jews and Catholics."
Did it?
"To consider these reversals as insignificant is a perspective that lacks insight and awareness -- to be polite about it."
I can't speak for others, but I consider these reversals to be positive - both for the Church and for the Jewish people. Honesty is usually the best policy. I believe the Church's duplicitous conduct in recent years has furthered it's goals - that's not good for anyone but the Church.
What I see by these condemnations is that some people have no insight and awareness as to what the Church's mission is vis-a-vis the Jewish people....and that's putting it politely. -
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cherev10 months ago
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You're wrong in this case. First, it's been eight months since I absented myself from Propeller and my perspectives have changed. I haven't expressed one word of hatred for you or arrogance towards you.
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Second, I don't disapprove of welcoming Jew-hating bishops back to the Church...I welcome it. It's entirely possible that now you and others will begin to see the Church as I have always seen it.
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Spadecaller10 months ago
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cherev: "You're wrong, as usual. ... Now, YOU'RE catching on." Very good, I see you changed your phrase to "You're wrong IN THIS CASE."
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"I haven't expressed one word of hatred for you or arrogance towards you."
Your rhetoric is contradictory. You have indeed changed; there is some improvement. But let's not get carried away. Your contempt and attitude towards me still shows. I will be the first to open my hand of friendship when you stop chomping at it.
"now you and others will begin to see the Church as I have always seen it."
Now... do you really think that is the comment of a person who is humble and respectful of those with differing views? How much do you think you have changed? Have you changed enough for the rest of us morons who need to be taught how to think by you?-
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cherev10 months ago
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I recognized the "as usual" as wrong and changed it. Sadly, not before you picked up on it.
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I'm the one offering the hand - not of friendship - let's be real - we can never be friends because we're on opposite sides. However, I will offer the hand of "respectful dialog". -
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cherev10 months ago
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"do you really think that is the comment of a person who is humble and respectful of those with differing views?"
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Perhaps not. I apologize.
"How much do you think you have changed?"
Perhaps not so much as I thought.
"Have you changed enough for the rest of us morons who need to be taught how to think by you?"
I guess I haven't. Have a nice day.
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crespi10 months ago
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One could consider the Catholic Church to be the largest "conspiracy" on Earth.
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Their stated goal IS to convert the entire world to their one narrow, dogmatic way of thinking.
Martin Luther certainly pointed out a few problems with them in Wurttemberg in 1517...-
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Justice4All10 months ago
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Martin Luther turned out to be one of the biggest racists of all time. He was much of the inspiration that Hitler used to turn people against the Jews. "Krystalnicht", I know the spelling is not even close, was on the night of Martin Luthers birthday. Hitler referred to Martin Luther as one of the greatist reformers of all time.
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He's not exactly the role model that many people think.
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Justice4All10 months ago
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Seems there are a lot of deniers out there. The Nazi's deny the holocaust saying there is no proof. I guess the reporters did not want to go into the gas chambers. And now Israel denies the genocide in Gaza. Again, no witnesses, very convienent.
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It's pretty easy to deny something, especially if you are telling people something they want to hear.
I guess pictures of dead Jews in mass graves and pictures of dead Palestinians with phosphorous burns mean nothing.-
cutrodComment removed: Hard Banned
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most_reasonable9 months, 4 weeks ago
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"And now Israel denies the genocide in Gaza. Again, no witnesses, very convienent."
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Someone with his head up Hyperbola's *ss.
Weren't enough manufactured photo-ops coming out of Gaza?
I like the one the other day which showed a child crying uncontrollably and then he suddenly sat up stopped crying at spoke clearly and slowly to the camera before he went back to his "agony".
The latest BS is the "phosphorous" burns. Israel warned the inhabitants to leave certain areas, not what the nazis or arabs would ever do.
Remember the Jenin camp in the west bank which Israel was accused of "leveling" and eye reports of 5000 dead was claimed. Until a real tally was made. They found not 5000, not 1000, not 500, but 50 dead, just about all of them combatants, and the occasional civilian held hostage as a shield.
The real killers in Gaza:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtsvjB8efKE
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Spadecaller10 months ago
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Some of the shameful comments that I have read on this thread are sad indicators of the dangerous resurgence of anti -Semitism on the internet and in the world at large.
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It also is an indicator of Propeller's role in tolerating anti-Semitism despite the Terms of Use, which it upholds sporadically.-
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HannibalBarca10 months ago
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TOU, in my mind are usless, as adults we say the word chit everyday, but can't post it,,,the F word is another familiar word,,,,but most use it despairingly and as for the comments like cutrod's ?, keep them around so sensible people can see crap at its finest,,,,and alsom how would you have known who supported his view if he was not around,,,,it gives more insight on certain personalities when you see who supports crap like his.
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Banning him will not change the hate, but if block was brought back to propeller you can ignore it if that is one's wish -
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hyperbola10 months ago
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Well Spade, I have been warning you for some time that if you do not subscribe to the principles of American democracy (equal rights for all people regardless of race or religion) with respect to Israel, then it wouldn't be long before real anti-semitism turns up. I fervently hope that American jews begin to show they really believe in American democracy before Americans become aware of the way in which our democracy has been used by right-wing zionists to aid and abet crimes against humanity in Palestine. The "blowback" could be ferocious when Americans become aware of the many decades of treason.
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Israel's Looming Catastrophe
For the past three decades, Israel has charted a course that invites its own destruction by relying on two risky propositions: first, that it could extend its security perimeter beyond the reach of a devastating missile attack, and second, that it could permanently control the political debate inside its crucial ally, the United States.
Israel’s current assault on Gaza is only the latest manifestation of this dangerous strategy, but – whether or not Israel succeeds in its stated goal of stopping the launching of short-range Hamas rockets – the more troubling writing for Israel remains on the wall....
Begin’s fear of Carter’s reelection set the stage for secret collaboration between Begin and the Republican presidential campaign of Ronald Reagan and George H.W. Bush, according to another Israeli intelligence official, Ari Ben-Menashe. Begin authorized shipments to Iran of small arms and some spare parts, via South Africa, as early as September 1979.
Extensive evidence now exists, too, that Begin’s preference for a Reagan victory led Israelis to join in a covert operation with Republicans to contact Iranian leaders behind Carter’s back and delay release of the 52 American hostages until after Reagan defeated Carter in November 1980. In his book and in sworn testimony about this so-called “October Surprise” controversy, Ben-Menashe asserted that then-vice presidential candidate George H.W. Bush personally participated in a key meeting in October 1980 in Paris...
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Spadecaller10 months ago
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Cutrod: "Israel and JEWS all over the world need to be destroyed. Period."
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I'm sorry... but if Propeller accepts comments like that and you guys need to see them, then that is no different than screaming "fire" in a crowded theater. Someone will take heed and start killing more Jews.
There comes a point at which I do not want to be a member of any organization that gives that kind of hatred a platform. You can have Propeller become a haven for Nazis and white supremacists, if that is what you want.-
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HannibalBarca10 months ago
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No, there is a difference
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a person yelling fire in a movie house just to cause mayhem,,,,or a person yelling fire cause there is one.
cutrod is a fire that needs to be put out,,,,and you won't be able to do it sitting in the front row watching the movie,,,,while the lobby or back rows are burning,
You have seen here who is opposed to his view, so not many condone it,,,but by his comments and Positive votes, you can see who is for it, and that is like knowing the enemy. -
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lvrofwolves10 months ago
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SC, is that really fair for you to say 'You can have Propeller become a haven for Nazis and white supremacists, if that is what you want.'
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??? of course the majority don't want that, but we can't hide people like that under the rug either, nor should we, exposed is best IMHO. People need to know there are sickos out there like him/her or whatever it is, if not, it would be no wonder there are some who deny the Holocaust for example. And again, there is possibilities for change.
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Spadecaller10 months ago
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Ivrofwolves:
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Yes it is fair for me to say, because I know quite a few x-members of propeller who could not stomach these racist and anti-Semitic pigs that use propeller as their platform to call for the death of Jews and blacks.
And should I join them and others decide that the "entertainment" value is not worth their continued participation, the percentage of hate mongers will only increase as we withdraw from our participation on Propeller. I can name over twenty members that have discontinued their involvement because of this kind of lowlife crap.
I became a member of Propeller and agreed to abide by the TOU. In addition, I joined knowing that it was against the guidelines to make racist slurs or inflammatory comments against one's religion,race, gender, or disability.
However, I have been learning that more members "enjoy" the sick comments of these misfits, thought they often pretend that there real motives are purely altruistic. I don't believe it is censorship for Propeller to uphold their guidelines that we all agreed to when we enrolled.
If they want a forum to spread their miserable hatred, let them go to stormfront to post their smack ...or let them march down on the public streets. Most normal people do not want to be associated with sickos like this.-
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hyperbola10 months ago
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Well Spade, the cost is going up for "my tribe can do no wrong" racism in support of Israel. Zionists will not be able to force censorship on Americans forever and the "blowback" may become severe.
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Gaza Holocaust denied - The lying silence of those who know
-"When the truth is replaced by silence," the Soviet dissident Yevgeny Yevtushenko said, "the silence is a lie." It may appear the silence is broken on Gaza. The cocoons of murdered children, wrapped in green, together with boxes containing their dismembered parents and the cries of grief and rage of everyone in that death camp by the sea, can be viewed on al-Jazeera and YouTube, even glimpsed on the BBC. But Russia's incorrigible poet was not referring to the ephemeral we call news; he was asking why those who knew the why never spoke it and so denied it. Among the Anglo-American intelligentsia, this is especially striking.
...They know that the horror now raining on Gaza has little to do with Hamas or, absurdly, "Israel's right to exist." They know the opposite to be true: that Palestine's right to exist was canceled 61 years ago and the expulsion and, if necessary, extinction of the indigenous people was planned and executed by the founders of Israel. They know, for example, that the infamous "Plan D" resulted in the murderous depopulation of 369 Palestinian towns and villages by the Haganah (Jewish army) and that massacre upon massacre of Palestinian civilians in such places as Deir Yassin, al-Dawayima, Eilaboun, Jish, Ramle and Lydda are referred to in official records as "ethnic cleansing." Arriving at a scene of this carnage, David Ben-Gurion, Israel's first prime minister, was asked by a general, Yigal Allon, "What shall we do with the Arabs?" Ben-Gurion, reported the Israeli historian Benny Morris, "made a dismissive, energetic gesture with his hand and said, ‘Expel them'. The order to expel an entire population "without attention to age" was signed by Yitzhak Rabin, a future prime minister promoted by the world's most efficient propaganda as a peacemaker....
Every subsequent "war" Israel has waged has had the same objective: the expulsion of the native people and the theft of more and more land. The lie of David and Goliath, of perennial victim, reached its apogee in 1967 when the propaganda became a righteous fury that claimed the Arab states had struck first. -
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lvrofwolves10 months ago
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SC well I understand not having a stomach for that, but people need to stand up against those type of people, who is going to do that if they don't know about it? or the people who can't stomach it just go away?
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AS YOU say, the percentage of hatemongers will increase if you withdraw, so stay and stand your ground! it's a shame if ANYONE leaves because of POS people like cutrod,they do get banned fairly quick, I guess it can't be quick enough tho if people leave because of the few sickos out there, I just think they are dealt with in more ways then being banned, I don't want that kind of sickness to hide so we can get rid of it, harder to do if it's hidden.
I certainly don't associate all other members based on the few racist, haters here. Just like I don't associate all Christians with the Pope or rev Phelps, I don't associate all priests with child molesters, I don't associate all Germans as being Nazis, all Muslims as terrorists, and the list goes on.....the world is filled with good and bad in every walk of life, keep the blame on the one(s) responsible, now if I saw that Propeller was not banning people like cutrod, I would consider leaving, but they do! again maybe not as fast as some would like...but still.
I sincerely hope you wouldn't leave SC.
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modester44Comment removed: Spam
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Pablogatos10 months ago
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The Catholic church is rearing its ugly head once again. The crusades resulted in unending muslim anger, and was also a direct cause of the Holocaust. The church preached anti-semitism for centuries. During WWII, there was a song-Money is the Root of all Evil. The title should have been, the Catholic church is the Root of all evil. More deaths have resulted from the church than all other causes combined.
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