Myths and falsehoods surrounding the economic recovery plan »
Posted By Radiofreeeuropa 9 months, 1 week ago in Business & FinanceDuring their coverage and discussion of the economic recovery
bill supported by President Obama, the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act , media figures have advanced several myths and falsehoods relating to the details and effects of the plan.
These myths and falsehoods include: the assertion that a Congressional Budget Office (CBO) "study" found that the majority of the money in the bill will notbe spent for a year and a half; that provisions in the bill to extend food stamps and unemployment insurance payments are "not stimulus"; that President Franklin Roosevelt's New Deal policies failed to reduce unemployment during the Great Depression; that Japan's fiscal stimulus policy during the "lost decade" of the
1990s failed to help it recover from
recession; that the bill would spend at least $217,000
for every job created; that the Association of Community Organizations for
Reform Now (ACORN) would receive $4.19 billion from the bill; and that former Labor Secretary and Obama adviser Robert Reich
proposed white males should be excluded from jobs created by the bill. These are all falsehoods. But no wonder those inclined to question the new administration are raising a ruckus, their being fed falsehood after falsehood. It's not really their fault, but an irresponsible or misogynous media whose lies are echoed over and over again through blogs and social sites until the truth is obscured completely.
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Radiofreeeuropa9 months, 1 week ago
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This is important! I have not been able to find an actual factual site that posts the stimulus bill. I asked if anyone had a link and there were no responses. Yet many are claiming to be privy to it's inner wordings (through opinion sites and news blips). A member had copied and pasted a National Review opinion as his own in which claims that the New York Times editors declared the stimulus package "12% stimulus and the rest pork" - except this was an op-ed from republican Peggy Noonan - not the New York Times editors. There are few facts and no shortage of "opinions" yet until we actually know what's in this bill how can there be any reasonable discussion of it's merits? Most of the Senators pay someone else to read these bills and give them the scoop, so many of their opinions are questionable as well. Again I have heard all kinds of claims, yet when I do the research none of them seems to be supported by anything more than error or 4th person hearsay.
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This article lists a few of the bogus claims being made and where they originated.-
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Goppy9 months, 1 week ago
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RFE - this is a very good article. Thanks for posting it.
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I hope I don't discourage your efforts to provide a rational voice for this effort ... however ... the Right Wing screamers on Propeller will continue to drown out reasoned debate on this issue.
The Right does not care about facts. They are managed by the leader of their party ... Rush Limbaugh.
If you've never noticed, the Right on Propeller invariably repeat Rush's 'Talking Points' immediately after he dispenses his "Dis-Information".
Look, this is what the Right Stands for in America today ... Obfuscation. And their is no one better at Obfuscation than Rush Limbaugh.
That is why the Right Idolizes Rush. That is why Rush Limbaugh has emerged as the 'defacto' leader of the Right.
It's a kind of sick, cynicism toward all things Federal Government.
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mesodude9 months, 1 week ago
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Radio, sadly I fear we're going to see a continuation of the same thoroughly disgusting behavior we saw from certain right leaning posters throughout Obama's entire campaign. It's one thing to be poorly informed and quite another for someone to post something they know to be false, simply to get the lie out there in cyberspace. Thanks for posting this. I would have but I don't have your clout. Had I posted it and not simply referenced it in that other thread, it likely would have been kicked off the front page immediately by some foreclosure come on.;-P
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Endoscopy9 months, 1 week ago
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Stupid is as stupid does. Go to the CBO web site and download the document talking about how to speed up the package. It is dated Jan. 29, 2009.
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http://www.cbo.gov/publications/collections/collec...
Click on the line:
An Assessment of How Spending from the Economic Stimulus Proposals Currently Before the Congress Could Be Accelerated
A great total of 15% in the year 2009. A previous study said a lesser % in the fiscal year ending in September.
This package is supposed to be an immediate stimulus for the economy. That is what Obama said and it was supposed to be passed quickly so that could happen. 15% in this fiscal year means that the rest will have NO EFFECT on the immediate economy. That means that only $123 billion will have to do the immediate rescue of the economy. If this the only stimulus then why does this package have $825 billion and climbing.-
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Radiofreeeuropa9 months, 1 week ago
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Thanks Meso, I don't have any special clout though I assure you. I just was frustrated yeterday trying to confront the "liars" one at a time, and as you know even when presented with links that dispelled the lies, they continued repeating them. Thanks for originally putting this link in your comment as I am sure that's how I found it. It's hard enough dealing with the severity of this crisis without disinformation being given more "status" than truth.
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The only thing I can say is that many of these people who perpetrate the fallacies did read them on some KKK blog or other out there site and do not understand the difference between the rant of a sociopath and the reality of a fact.
Since the list is right here, one would simply be placing their ignorance on display to repeat any of these lies. The fact that the actual document is referenced here should keep the discussion about reality ...but we shall see. -
libsRfunnyComment removed: Hard Banned2 Replies
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Radiofreeeuropa9 months, 1 week ago
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Hey Endo It is called the Economic Recovery Act and part of it is stimulus.
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It's also referred to as the first step, It is likely just that.
Let's get those presses rolling.
The sooner we get printing, the sooner the recovery.
I'm sure you won't cash your tax rebate though. (Assuming of course you pay taxes).
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Radiofreeeuropa9 months, 1 week ago
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$79 billion in state fiscal relief to prevent cutbacks to key services, including $39 billion to local school districts and public colleges and universities distributed through existing state and federal formulas
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$15 billion to states as bonus grants as a reward for meeting key performance measures, and $25 billion to states for other high priority needs such as public safety and other critical services, which may include education.
$15.6 billion to increase the Pell grant by $500.
$6 billion for higher education modernization.
Tax Cuts to Make Work Pay and Create Jobs: We will provide direct tax relief to 95 percent of American workers, and spur investment and job growth for American Businesses.
Lower Healthcare Costs: To save not only jobs, but money and lives, we will update and computerize our
healthcare system to cut red tape, prevent medical mistakes, and help reduce healthcare costs by billions of
dollars each year.
! $20 billion for health information technology to prevent medical mistakes, provide better care to patients
and introduce cost-saving efficiencies.
! $4.1 billion to provide for preventative care and to evaluate the most effective healthcare treatments.
Help Workers Hurt by the Economy: High unemployment and rising costs have outpaced Americans’ paychecks. We will help workers train and find jobs, and help struggling families make ends meet.
$43 billion for increased unemployment benefits and job training.
$39 billion to support those who lose their jobs by helping them to pay the cost of keeping their employer provided healthcare under COBRA and providing short-term options to be covered by Medicaid.
$20 billion to increase the food stamp benefit by over 13% in order to help defray rising food costs.
Save Public Sector Jobs and Protect Vital Services: We will provide relief to states, so they can continue to
employ teachers, firefighters and police officers and provide vital services without having to unnecessarily raise
middle class taxes.
$87 billion for a temporary increase in the Medicaid matching rate.
$4 billion for state and local law enforcement funding."-
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Radiofreeeuropa9 months, 1 week ago
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Since the original post, our fellow propeller friend, Nostalgia, provided a link to the actual Stimulus Package (Thanks, your a gentleman and a scholar). It would be nice to comment on this actual document rather than some media nincompoop's comments about it.
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Here is the document- Full Text (641 pages) http://big.assets.huffingtonpost.com/HR1.pdf
the summary-
http://big.assets.huffingtonpost.com/appropssummar... -
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tchef9 months, 1 week ago
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Republicans were not locked out of the process. President Obama went to them himself and asked for their support. They decided to leave the bill as is hoping that it would fail in it's mission so it could be counted as egg on the face of the Democrats.
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Radiofreeeuropa9 months, 1 week ago
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It will take a while to digest the details but according to the document itself:
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the breakdown is-
"$32 billion to transform the nation’s energy transmission, distribution, and production systems by allowing for a smarter and better grid and focusing investment in renewable technology.
$16 billion to repair public housing and make key energy efficiency retrofits.
$6 billion to weatherize modest-income homes.
Transform our Economy with Science and Technology: We need to put scientists to work looking for the next great discovery, creating jobs in cutting-edge-technologies, and making smart investments that will help businesses in every community succeed in a global economy. For every dollar invested in broadband the
economy sees a ten-fold return on that investment.
$10 billion for science facilities, research, and instrumentation.
$6 billion to expand broadband internet access so businesses in rural and other underserved areas can link up to the global economy.
$30 billion for highway construction;
$31 billion to modernize federal and other public infrastructure with investments that lead to long term
energy cost savings;
$19 billion for clean water, flood control, and environmental restoration investments;
$10 billion for transit and rail to reduce traffic congestion and gas consumption.
To enable more children to learn in 21st century classrooms, labs, and libraries
to help our kids compete with any worker in the world, this package provides:
$41 billion to local school districts through Title I ($13 billion),
IDEA a new School Modernization and Repair Program ($14 billion), and the Education Technology program ($1 billion).
continued-
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quackpot9 months, 1 week ago
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Spreading the spending over more than a 7-8 month period makes a great deal of sense.
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Any kind of stimulus must have a long enough life to sustain job creation long enough for the economy to return to a functioning system. Since the FISCAL year 2009 ends in September, creating a HUGE number of jobs that would only last 7-8 months following the passage of the bill would be sure folly. -
mntnman444Comment removed: Spammer, Hard Banned1 Reply
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memestryker9 months, 1 week ago
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I thought the anti-smoking program was pulled out...no? I read they did pull out the STD prevention. As long as they can show it helps U.S. taxpayers, I don't oppose it, but of course congress has to put in some pork--that's how they operate, irrespective of who holds the majority. They are a machine of sorts.
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mntnman444Comment removed: Spammer, Hard Banned4 Replies
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jimdoze9 months, 1 week ago
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To sum up...
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Hydrogen fuel cells are extraordinarily clean at the point where they are applied to do work. However, the whole cycle still requires about 2 to 3 times the energy to do the same amount of work that a gasoline or diesel engine will now do. Passing current through salt water to obtain free hydrogen is extraordinarily inefficient. The current must come from somewhere and it certainly is not a breakeven proposition. The best, most economical source of hydrogen is from knocking a hydrogen atom off of methane (natural gas). This is still very expensive in terms of the ratio of energy used to work performed.
Controlled Nuclear Fusion remains the great hope for humanity. However, it involves controlling a process with temperatures and pressures found only at the center of the sun. This, as you might imagine, is no small thing. The U.S. government devotes roughly $1 Billion per year to research and development of this technology. While it is promising and sustained fusion reaction generators may someday be developed, they are not now. It could easily take another half century or more to achieve this technology.
In the meantime, there is wind and solar, which can help a little at the margins. However, that is only at the margins. Industrial economies require industrial sources of energy production. There are only two general categories of sources presently. Those are fossil fuel and nuclear fission. If the U.S. wishes to seriously reduce its dependence on fossil fuels, the only other choice is nuclear fission power generation for at least the next half century. -
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Radiofreeeuropa9 months, 1 week ago
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Once you remove the myths, this becomes simply about those who believe Government should act in the classic Keynesian way to restore normality and those who think it should act in the Herbert Hoover fashion...(prosperity is just around the corner!).
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Let's be honest about it.-
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beavith19 months, 1 week ago
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honest? if one makes the assumption that Keynesian economics is the only solution.
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i find myself looking for new answers to these new problems, rather than try and form 1930 answers to a wholely different solution.
i'm reminded of the old requirement to compare and CONTRAST, rather than just assume a tool from last century IS the answer.
except for spending the better part of $1T, i think Obama IS working for a solution. this pork stuff is just pork. its not priming anything.
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Radiofreeeuropa9 months, 1 week ago
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On Fox News, Carl Cameron and Laura Ingraham reported the false Republican claim that, in Cameron's words, the economic stimulus bill would allow "illegal aliens" to claim "tax credits of $500 per person or 1,000 per couple." Cameron and Ingraham advanced the falsehood even after it was made clear that the bill excludes undocumented immigrants.
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http://mediamatters.org/items/200901300002?f=h_top -
birdsaboundComment removed: Spam16 Replies
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Radiofreeeuropa9 months, 1 week ago
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Gasoline explodes too. I do think people are generally unaware that nuclear reactors can be built relatively safely now and without much of a disposal issue. Thanks for the comment that was absolutely factual birdsabound! A breath of fresh air so to speak.
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flyonthewallzz9 months, 1 week ago
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Nostalgia:
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The emergency appropriation thing is a total mess.
None of the spending is calculated when they come up with the deficit number.
As I have said before the numbers they give us for revenue are incorrect as well.
They use Gross collections and not Net somehow many of the tax refunds are left off the budget. The IRS does publish them but treasury and OMB seems to ignore them.
This makes me nuts!
I would have to agree with you if all of this spending is going to be tucked away and off the published budget. It is really hard to get the real numbers.
Would having this spending become part of the actual budget soften some of the blow for you? The items you are talking about definitely should be budget items.
It will take me a while to actually form an opinion here.
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Beau78909 months, 1 week ago
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Thanks for posting an article with actual facts and links to the bill, Radio.
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I'm continually surprised at how many distortions are repeated as fact by ostensibly legitimate journalists--people with experience reporting the news and who are supposed to have an understanding of how to check facts--like Chris Wallace and Brit Hume, as opposed to Rush Limbaugh and Michelle Malkin (who at least have the excuse that they're not trained to know truth from fiction, though one would think they'd be able to do so anyway).
While it can be argued how some of the items in the bill might stimulate the economy, it's helpful to have a clear recounting of what's actually included in the stimulus package.
As for pork--well, that's an ambiguous term--it's true as you told me that one man's job is another man's pork...or as I like to say, one man's fish is another man's poisson. But with the facts out here, we can debate this legitimately. Personally, I'd argue that any package allocating money for specific purposes, but not giving it to specifically named organizations, is a legitimate non-pork use of money. In the case of this stimulus package, almost everything that's not a tax cut can directly create jobs. And the tax cuts and measures to protect homeowners against foreclosures in this package certainly help those struggling with the sluggish economy in the short-term, until longer-range effects of the bill are felt.
About your other difficulty in finding the text of this bill, anyone who ever wants to look up any piece of legislation being debated, voted on, or passed can see all drafts of any bill in either the U.S. House or Senate, including the original and modified versions, at this website maintained by the Library of Congress:
http://thomas.loc.gov
It's an excellent resource. -
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nostalgia9 months, 1 week ago
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No one is saying that many of the provisions are not worthwhile BUT the bill lacks focus
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Go through the provisions again and ask "Will this create a job?"
Too many of the provisions are increasing govt programs which will not create a single new job. Increase spending on food stamps, the WIC program and unemployment benefits to name 3. Needed you bet BUT in a stimulus bill? Those need to be in a regular appropriations bill
Did you hear Alice M. Rivlin, who was President Bill Clinton's budget director, testify before the House budget committee?
She had the most common sense approach I have seen
Rivlin suggested splitting the plan, implementing its immediate stimulus components now and taking more time to plan the longer-term transformative spending to make sure it is done right.
"Such a long-term investment program should not be put together hastily and lumped in with the anti-recession package. The elements of the investment program must be carefully planned and will not create many jobs right away," said Rivlin, a fellow at the Brookings Institution. The risk, she said, is that "money will be wasted because the investment elements were not carefully crafted."
The bill to be voted on today includes $30 billion for roads and bridges, $9 billion for public transit and $1 billion for inter-city rail -- less than 5 percent of the package's total spending. Administration officials have said they did not push for more infrastructure spending because of concerns about how many projects are "shovel ready" -- a view that House members say is held most strongly by Lawrence H. Summers, Obama's chief economic adviser.
Even though most House Democrats say they will back the plan, many reject the administration's argument, saying that infrastructure projects could easily be expedited, that the economy will need additional infusions for years to come and that the real reason for shunning infrastructure was to make room for tax cuts. Obama, with a public mandate to do something big, is missing a rare opportunity to rebuild the country, they say.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/artic...
Infrastructure priorities, focus and jobs should be the main concern of any stimulus bill
Research on the flu?
Money for climate modeling?
New computers for the Ag Dept? -
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nostalgia9 months, 1 week ago
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We all need to keep a close eye on the "Made in America" provision in the bill
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Western Europe, China and now Canada are all threatening to file a complaint with the WTO if that provision remains in the final version
Canada also says it is a violation of NAFTA
Lobbyists are already descending upon Washington in an attempt to get the provision removed-
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jimdoze9 months, 1 week ago
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Protectionism is a sweet, seductive siren-song which, ultimately, leads to doom. And, in the current worldwide economic environment, it can set off forces of economic nationalism so quickly, and so deeply, that it will make your head spin. There is only one other way to set this country more assuredly on the path to world war than by invoking protectionist measures as a short term, politically expedient palliative to rising unemployment.
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flyonthewallzz9 months, 1 week ago
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SEC. 1110. USE OF AMERICAN IRON AND STEEL.
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"(a) In General- None of the funds appropriated or otherwise made available by this Act may be used for a project for the construction, alteration, maintenance, or repair of a public building or public work unless all of the iron and steel used in the project is produced in the United States.
(b) Exceptions- Subsection (a) shall not apply in any case in which the head of the Federal department or agency involved finds that--
(1) applying subsection (a) would be inconsistent with the public interest;
(2) iron and steel are not produced in the United States in sufficient and reasonably available quantities and of a satisfactory quality; or
(3) inclusion of iron and steel produced in the United States will increase the cost of the overall project by more than 25 percent.
(c) Written Justification for Waiver- If the head of a Federal department or agency determines that it is necessary to waive the application of subsection (a) based on a finding under subsection (b), the head of the department or agency shall publish in the Federal Register a detailed written justification as to why the provision is being waived."
Would some adjustment of the "25% of overall project cost" make it more palatable for you?
I am of 2 minds here: I think the 25% tariff on light trucks is one of the things that got us into this mess, but I also wonder about us competing with a nationalized foreign industry.
I think a nudge towards more domestic manufacturing is appropriate.
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canadianrancher579 months, 1 week ago
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In regards to the section about the bailout in Japan I am forces to sort of go with those who say that it has not worked. Japan started their bailouts in about 92 and after a certain point one has to realize that the monies that are going into support programs must be repaid, the situation in Japan quit declining because of the bailout but has failed to get it back into a growth cycle.
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I have noticed that there is much importance being placed on the word jobs but if this plan is just one big make work project it is a waste of money.
One thing I will agree with though is if people continue to politicize every action that the government attempts then alot of these ideas will not happen and there are some of them that do have merit and would benefit the US economy long term. To me the energy sector is one that is one of the most important,regardless of whether a country is in a recession or booming the cost of energy is always a major facrot and sending billions of dollars out of your country will never help. -
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Bucotch9 months, 1 week ago
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Pork, pork, pork. More government jobs and pork that don't generate anything for middle class. A cop or any other state job doesn't actually pay taxes. All they do is funnel back (rebate)some of the real tax payer money that is wasted on the multitudes of excess we already have. Might as well cut their wages in half and not have them pay any so called taxes at all.
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This cycle of more government doesn't add up. It's all spending. I'm sick of working till June to pay taxes. And I'm sick of seeing it take 10 cops, with a half million worth of vehicles, to make a traffic stop. Then all sit at the doughnut shop. Pathetic.-
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Radiofreeeuropa9 months, 1 week ago
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So cops are a waste of money and you don't like paying taxes....
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Does anyone like it?
Obama may be wise to let people opt out if they want to.
Since the red states are by far the greatest recipients of tax dollars, you could refuse to take them...after all that IS socialism isn't it.
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Republicrat1844Comment removed: Retracted by user
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4thchance9 months, 1 week ago
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About a week ago, Obama told us the web address of his new web site dedicated to this recovery plan.
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Go here
http://www.recovery.gov
But there's nothing there now? Just a note saying to check back after the big vote.... -
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Radiofreeeuropa9 months, 1 week ago
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Slate- As you may have noticed the comments are spread willy nilly by propeller's growing wierdness , the second half which included the rest of the bill is probably on some post about squirrels. Why do you insist on continuing the lie about acorn?
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At least read the article your commenting on.
This is a fact check site.
It says it is a lie.
I used to respect you but the unwillingness to admit your source is wrong in light of a fact check is not honorable.
I read the oped piece you referred me to, and commented with factual comments yesterday but I guess you missed those. You claim that this slush fund money
given to local governments will go to Acorn. (or your oped source did- you made the leap) Why? Because some local governments have hired the organization in the past.. It's a very far stretch that you for some reason refuse to let go of. This article you comment on is calling it a lie.
It is a fact check site.
Please give it up slate, your better than this.
I mistook you as a legit conservative who stuck with honesty. Always kind of liked you for that.
Now it seems you've joined the mindless spite crowd.
Too bad as it completely cheapens the legit stuff you might have to offer.
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nostalgia9 months, 1 week ago
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The Boston Globe has an interesting story on the House bill
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Only 5 percent of $819b plan would go toward infrastructure
Critics say transportation is shortchanged
Representative Michael Capuano, a Somerville Democrat on the House Committee on Transportation and Infrastructure, said he has watched with frustration as spending for rapid transit and rail dropped during negotiations over the bill. For example, after an initial burst of enthusiasm for inter-city rail projects, the amount was reduced to $5 billion and then to $1.1 billion, he said.
The bill has $30 billion for roads and bridges and $12 billion for rapid transit, with decisions on specific projects to be made by state and local officials. But that's far less than originally sought by some Democrats, and could make it more difficult to fund some Massachusetts projects, such as work on roads, bridges, and the MBTA system, or a proposed extension of the commuter rail line from Lowell to Manchester, N.H.
"Priorities changed," Capuano said. "Someone says, 'How about food stamps, how about early childhood education?' "
The chairman of the transportation panel's subcommittee on highways and transit, Peter DeFazio of Oregon, became so angry about the reduction in transportation spending that he recently accused Obama's top economic adviser, Lawrence Summers, of arguing against such funds because he "hates infrastructure."
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/artic...-
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Radiofreeeuropa9 months, 1 week ago
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Early childhood education employs lots of people as well, it may not be as glamorous but it employs people. Many of these programs have been hot potatoes in terms of funding the last number of years, some stability would be a welcome change.
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slate9 months, 1 week ago
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I've been told that since Bush spent money on a war I/we shouldn't dare say a word about this pork laden bill.
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The dems have spent in one week twice the amount that war has cost to date.
To date, over $500 billion of U.S. taxpayer money that has been spent on the war in Iraq.
if you take the 120 billion dollars in stimulus checks that will come out of the almost 900 billion dollar 'bill' the pork alone far exceeds 5 years of war.
This is something you are proud of and have no problem saying Yeah but Bush spent money on a war?
You guys won, now it's time to hold your own to the standards you claim you wanted the Rs to have.-
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Radiofreeeuropa9 months, 1 week ago
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Which part is pork Slate?
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The stuff you claimed yesterday isn't even in the bill.
In normal times this spending would be excessive of course, these are no longer normal times, if you personally haven't been devastated by this crisis well good for you.
America's economy needs complete retooling and in many cases re building to work in not just the here and now but the future.
It ain't gonna be done on the cheap.
So which part isn't worth doing here Slate?
"$32 billion to transform the nation’s energy transmission, distribution, and production systems by allowing for a smarter and better grid and focusing investment in renewable technology.
$16 billion to repair public housing and make key energy efficiency retrofits.
$6 billion to weatherize modest-income homes.
Transform our Economy with Science and Technology: We need to put scientists to work looking for the next great discovery, creating jobs in cutting-edge-technologies, and making smart investments that will help businesses in every community succeed in a global economy. For every dollar invested in broadband the
economy sees a ten-fold return on that investment.
$10 billion for science facilities, research, and instrumentation.
$6 billion to expand broadband internet access so businesses in rural and other underserved areas can link up to the global economy.
$30 billion for highway construction;
$31 billion to modernize federal and other public infrastructure with investments that lead to long term
energy cost savings;
$19 billion for clean water, flood control, and environmental restoration investments;
$10 billion for transit and rail to reduce traffic congestion and gas consumption.
Or 21st century classrooms, labs, and libraries
to help our kids compete with any worker in the world, this package provides:
$41 billion to local school districts through Title I ($13 billion),
IDEA a new School Modernization and Repair Program ($14 billion), and the Education Technology program ($1 billion).
Which is the evil pork? -
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MRCOFFEECAKE9 months, 1 week ago
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Which would you rather spend?
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$500 on hookers and drugs, or $900 on a new driveway?
Sure, the hookers or the drug dealers may feel good and may come back some day and become law abiding taxpayers, but not as likely to pay off as the money spent rebuilding those dangerous potholes in our own front yard....
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frctm59 months, 1 week ago
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I think we can safely dismiss most of the Republican's claims as well as Rush Limbaugh's, regarding the cost, need, or effectiveness of the stimulus. They are pathological liars who preach to their choirs of ditto heads. One criticism I have heard, however, is that the stimulus tries to do too much in one package. That is, that it is overly broad in its aims but not sufficiently funded to be effective in achieving the stated goals. I think it would be better to pass stimulus packages on a yearly basis and measure the results as we go rather than pushing for the whole enchilada at one time. This way there will be more opportunities to make changes and adjustments to continue with those things that are working and changing those that aren't.
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But we definitely need to fix our infrastructure and stimulate our economy. Our infrastructure is pathetic given the size of our economy. You go to Europe or Japan and even China and you will see countries that take some pride in their national infrastructure and have a vision of the future. In America, we are resting on our laurels. We are still a great nation, but the Republicans are content to let it go to seed in the name of small government. Its a stupid and short sighted approach that will cause our nation to back slide. The projects of the WPA are still yielding dividends to this day. The problem is that most of our big public works projects, other than freeways, were built in the thirties and they are getting old. The information economy has created new needs as well and these have not kept pace with the changing economy.-
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Radiofreeeuropa9 months, 1 week ago
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I agree, but this is meant precisely as a "first step" with the intent being to track and fully fund aspects that are working and delete those that aren't. The biggest mistake that could be made is to do too little according to the vast majority of economists.
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Radiofreeeuropa9 months, 1 week ago
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I think republicans are merely hedging their bets. If the stimulus works well they think Obama will get the credit but if it doesn't work, and they opposed it they can claim a sad victory of sorts..."Hey all you destitute starving people we told you it wouldn't work!" "If you had only listened to us...well you'd still be destitute and starving."
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mmrhe9 months, 1 week ago
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Thanks for the post Radio!
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You're right...The stimulus package has been getting hammered on MSM and I've been waiting to hear the facts come out instead of the spin.
One thing for sure. The Repubs are seizing on this as their big chance to 'make a stand'
People need to get the facts and make up their own minds and Obama needs to get out this weekend and sell this thing or it will be in trouble -
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Klarissa9 months, 1 week ago
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What is the difference between a stimulus bill and a pork barrel bill?
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How many of these programs would do anything for the economy? Would they help YOUR pocketbook?
$650 million for digital TV coupons;
$600 million for new cars for the federal government;
$6 billion for colleges/universities – many which have billion dollar endowments;
$50 million in funding for the National Endowment of the Arts;
$44 million for repairs to U.S. Department of Agriculture headquarters;
$200 million for the National Mall, including $21 million for sod;
32 new government programs at a cost of over $136 billion;
$18.5 billion expenditure on “energy efficiency” and “renewable energy programs;
$1 billion for Community Development Block Grants (CDBG) – a program that already has $16 billion on hand;
Funding for Contraceptives;
Government run new health care information technology system;
$87 billion for Medicaid,
$50 million for the arts;
$3 billion for American Indians;
$75 million for programs to help people quit smoking;
$1 billion for Amtrak;
$2 billion to help subsidize child care;
$400 million to research global warming;
$2.4 billion for projects to demonstrate removing carbon gas from the atmosphere;
$600 million for new green cares for government employees;
$2.25 billion for national parks;
$335 million to treat sexually transmitted diseases;
$44 million to renovate headquarters of the Agriculture Department;
$32 billion for a smart electricity grid to minimize waste;
$10.3 billion tax credits to defray college tuition costs.
The Congressional Budget Office calculates that the interest on the debt of this bill would cost $347.1 billion.
The majority of the money would be spent over a three year period, so why is this called "crisis" money?
And how many of these programs would do anything for the economy?
All members of the "Accountability and Transparency Board" would be appointed by the President. Congress has to approve the monies, but will have no oversight.-
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Radiofreeeuropa9 months, 1 week ago
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How you have erred K, let me count the ways.
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!st copied and pasted from some loony site, with many of the same nonsensical lies posted as such in the story you have commented on.
2nd.
You won't actually find that crap in the bill, your "sources" have lied to you.
http://www.rules.house.gov/111/LegText/111_hr1_tex...
Where is that in the document?
Where are the condoms?
You poor gullible child. There are no condoms in this bill.
You have done exactly what this article is warning you against.
Posted a lie.
I hope you don't want to remain a liar and are not doing it because you approve of lieing but rather are just dupped easily my the unreliable sources you read.
3rd- read the piece you comment on, in this case it is about YOU.
(Or at least your irresponsible typing)
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Any program that creates jobs or sustains them is good for the economy.
So yes every one of the ones that are real stimulate the economy.
Amtrak will be involved in mass transit infrastructure improvement no surprise.
Modernizing the computer systems to current (or at least not 1980) standards isn't what most would call renovation...
The smoking thing has been claimed on this website and KKK blogs but I can't find it in the bill can you? What page? I didn't see 10 cents mentioned "for american indians"- what page is that on?
Get back to me when you find those STDs in the Recovery Act.
And wherever you get your disinformation, the site should be banned for being unhealthy.
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fjgalt9 months, 1 week ago
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Printing a trillion dollars doesn't mean that a trillion dollars worth of actual goods and services are created. If the money is borrowed, it will have to be paid back with interest. If it's just printed, then the extra currency is added to the claims on actual goods and services, devaluing the dollars in circulation by that amount.
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If we assume that 850 billion (or about 1.2 trillion with interest) will create 4 million jobs, that comes to between $200,000 and $300,000 per job. A small business owner could create 5 or more times that.
What this bill amounts to is another BIG spending bill. To be paid for by whom? By the people who actually create the wealth -- from day laborers to business owners and those in between -- and give value to those printed pieces of paper we call currency, now and in the future.
This spending bill is another burden to be repaid by our children and grandchildren. When they grow up and damn our generation, we will deserve their condemnation.-
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Mdiar9 months, 1 week ago
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If we assume that 850 billion (or about 1.2 trillion with interest) will create 4 million jobs, that comes to between $200,000 and $300,000 per job. A small business owner could create 5 or more times that.
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Not entirely accurate.
If we assume that the stimulus will work as planned, then it will boost GDP by approximately 1.5 times the amount of spending or $620 billion a year. If GDP rises by this amount, then it will translate into roughly $155 billion a year in higher taxes/lower spending than if we didn't do the stimulus. This is money that should be subtracted from the cost to the taxpayers.
So, if net out the increased revenue from the growth generated by the stimulus we end up with a 2-year cost of $515 billion which will generate roughly 8 million job-years. That comes to about $65k per job year
http://www.prospect.org/csnc/blogs/beat_the_press_... -
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Radiofreeeuropa9 months, 1 week ago
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People are always trying to explain government economics in terms of personal economics.
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It just isn't the same. Your life is finite, you must repay your debts before you die, yet a government lives "forever" relatively speaking. If you don't make enough to pay for your needs you can not simply print more (at least legally). Economies tend to grow (that is the point of stimulus) as they do, by the time, many generations in the future, the bill comes due (so to speak) the capital spent caused more growth than cost. The civil war for instance was a huge burden financially on the budget in it's day, but when it was actually paid off (I believe in the 1980s) the cost was chump change. Even the difference between WWII dollars and 2008 dollars (based on GNP) make the entire price tag of WWII According to my Oxford Companion to WWII in strictly monetary terms to the U.S. was $288,000,000,000.
Now it is estimated that in 1990 dollars that cost would be $2091.3 billion dollars.
I apologize for not having 2009 figures but you get the idea. What seemed like an unimaginable fortune in the 1940s became a very manageable if not inexpensive (relatively speaking) expenditure because the GNP grew that much. It's a bet on the future growth.
The vast majority of economists agree that what is called Keynesian economics is the way to deal with serious downturns. The problem is that politicians have been running deficits in times of prosperity (insanity). In times of trouble it is a very useful tool in other times it's a suicidal weapon.
The more invested, the more the growth, if private industry won't or can't do it then government can and should.
More on John Maynard Keynes:
http://econ161.berkeley.edu/Economists/keynes.html
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Radiofreeeuropa9 months, 1 week ago
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I don't remember hearing anyone cursing those civil war guys when it was paid off in the 80s. the Civil War—it was just $65 million dollars in 1860, but passed $1 billion in 1863 and ended up at $2.7 billion following the war. Still by the time it was paid off it was chump change. No one really even noticed.
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Now our children's children's children's children's children's children likely would curse us for allowing our once great civilization to collapse. They may stumble on some picture of people eating in a restaurant and wonder what the heck is going on from their campfire in some abandoned building while avoiding the cannibals who banded together in the building down the road. In fact if it gets bad enough many of them will never be born anyway. -
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TiaSmith6 months, 3 weeks ago
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I like the approche which is being arosed .Miami Beach homes are considered hot properties in any given time. The beautiful beach setting coupled with a tropical weather for most parts of the year is very appealing to everyone.
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Tia smith
Miami real estate
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