Comments for The Torturers' Manifesto »
Posted By Beau7890 7 months, 3 weeks ago in Political NewsTo read the four newly released memos on prisoner interrogation written by George W. Bush's Justice Department is to take a journey into depravity.
Their language is the precise bureaucratese favored by dungeon masters throughout history. They detail how to fashion a collar for slamming a prisoner against a wall, exactly how many days he can be kept without sleep (11), and what, specifically, he should be told before being locked in a box with an insect -- all to stop just short of having a jury decide that these acts violate the laws against torture and abusive treatment of prisoners.
In one of the more nauseating passages, Jay Bybee, then an assistant attorney general and now a federal judge, wrote admiringly about a contraption for waterboarding that would lurch a prisoner upright if he stopped breathing while water was poured over his face. He praised the Central Intelligence Agency for having doctors ready to perform an emergency tracheotomy if necessary.
These memos are not an honest attempt to set the legal limits on interrogations, which was the authors’ statutory obligation. They were written to provide legal immunity for acts that are clearly illegal, immoral and a violation of this country’s most basic values.
Read Full Story at nytimes.com »
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captgeobob7 months, 3 weeks ago
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And I suppose you believe that decapitating an innocent American is not nauseating? Listen my friend, when a nation is at war and we are at war, you must do whatever it takes to protect you country, citizens, and family and our way of life. If you do not do these things then you will lose and then you will either be killed or made to do things against your will.
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Beau78907 months, 3 weeks ago
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Right. And since torture produces unreliable information, it doesn't protect our country, citizens or families. It further endangers our armed forces. And because our way of life involves attempting to claim the moral high ground, torture destroys that all on its own.
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Gransater7 months, 3 weeks ago
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And if you lower yourself to the level of your enemy, then, you have allready lost the war.
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When you abrogate your principles of morality, you in fact become lower than your enenmy, because you gave up on these on own free will, and surrendered any claim to rigtheous superiority.-
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cheif7 months, 3 weeks ago
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And I'll bet you will stand behind everything you said and PROVE it by volunteering to go to
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one of those /nice/ countries and tell everyone you're American and see how they treat you.
I'll bet you might want to decide life is better than 'abrogating our principles of morality' - anyone who chose to die for a cause is just a dead person.
I believe most humans would tilt the scales in favor of life...can you really say you would rather be superior because you would do nothing to save your life or allow anyone to do what they could do to save yours?
A principle is just a principle...life is the ONLY thing that matters.-
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truthiness7 months, 3 weeks ago
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yes. He died in the early 19th century. He was one of the founders of this nation, one of the people responsible for throwing of the reigns of tyranny and forming our ideology.
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He is most famous for saying, "Give me Liberty or give me Death!"-
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cheif7 months, 3 weeks ago
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I know what the man said...I can hear the British laughing as they strung him up...he got what he asked for - same as someone dying for their country...are you kidding me?
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They don't die for their country...they die crying for mommy or swearing at the enemy who caused them so much pain.
Patrick probably figured he had to say something to justify his suicide by hanging...I know it SOUNDS good when you say something like that 'nothing to fear, but fear itself' , but I don't think much came of it; killing a lot of British/Germans/Japanese solved that problem.
And, yes, torture was used by Americans
against Americans (remember the Lincoln assasination?), so it's nothing new....
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Gransater7 months, 3 weeks ago
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As a matter of fact, I have. Been to africa a number of times, a few years back, aswell to south and central america, so I don't have anything to prove to you!
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You apparently are defending the use of torture, which, in my opinion brings you down to the level of those we A R E suposed to better than. If you are unable to understand that, well, so be it.
Is just a dead person ............................... Sometimes personal sacrifice weights enough to tip the balance of scales. Try to explain this idea of yours to these missguided souls who blow themselfes up in crowded markets. For all the wrong actions of their last moments in life, they have more convictions in their ideals than what it appears you do.
(On a footnote, just a few years back, it was the Irish blowing themselfes up in England, so don't come and point to just one area of the world)
A principle is just a principle.......... A filosofer once said that a man without a principle is like a ship without a rudder, just letting the wind take it wherever it wants.....................!
I can only imagine what your ideals and principles are like.-
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cheif7 months, 3 weeks ago
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I'm a survivor of war. Surviving was my ONLY principle. You won't find ANY honorable people on the battlefield.
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Try a good read...'Johnny Got His Gun' and then tell me about your ship without a rudder...
I lived through the 'troubles' in Ireland; they only thing they sacrificed was anybody unlucky enough to get in the way of their differences of opinions.
True, there are misguided souls killing themselves for someone else's
opinion...after it's all said and done, they're just dead. The opinion maker changes his opinion to match their present requirements - the misguided soul is still just dead...
it's not a matter of being nicer than someone in war, if you want to be nice, don't send a military man in to do what you don't have the nerve to do and then tie his hands so he is sure to suffer while you pontificate about 'principles' HE should follow...not you...you're just an observer....-
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dissent7 months, 3 weeks ago
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"there are misguided souls killing themselves for someone else's
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opinion...after it's all said and done, they're just dead. "
and then there are misguided souls killing others for someone else's opinion... after it's all said and done, people are still dead. i take it your belief that "life is the ONLY thing matters" is highly conditional, prioritized and selective
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cheif7 months, 3 weeks ago
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There's another manual that will lead you into the depravity you so willingly apply to Americans and their laws...try the KORAN..
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Go to some of their web sites and see how REAL torture, finalized by beheadings, all according to strict rules in the death manual,(Koran in case you forgot already)...
I'll bet you would LOVE to be questioned by Americans than (I forgot - the KORAN says you don't question anyone - you just torture, then murder because they're 'infidels')
I almost said you would probably want to be questioned by an islamic regime, but...who wants to die???
By the way...how many of these prisoners were willingly murdered by their sick, depraved American captors???-
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truthiness7 months, 3 weeks ago
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what possible difference does it make how our enemies behave? we are talking about how we behave. we are a nation of laws, if we break our own laws then who are we?
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you talk about doing whatever is necessary to protect our way of life. If we know longer live that way of life, what are we protecting?
If the only way I can stay alive is to take action X, then of course action X is justified. But that is not the case. It is not necessary to torture people to protect America. There are other proven techniques for gathering reliable information from a suspect/perp/enemy.
you can say anything you want about yourself, but in the end, nothing says more about who you are than your actions. -
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Beau78907 months, 3 weeks ago
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If you're fighting for some sort of principle, you're putting yourself in harm's way. If survival is the ONLY thing that matters, then why would you fight to begin with? Why not desert?
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If you're interested in survival over the long term, wouldn't you prefer that after you win you don't place yourself in the same kind of supposedly barbaric society you're fighting against?
As truthiness said, you're not actually defending your life when you're torturing prisoners. You're trying to get information from a prisoner--an entirely helpless person. Torture is not necessary for survival. And punishing those whose inhumanity you dislike is not the purpose of war--accomplishing your nation's objective is...right?-
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cheif7 months, 3 weeks ago
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If you actually believe torture of a prisoner is wrong, and shouldn't be used to
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get information from a prisoner, where do you think you get these helpless human beings from?
99.9% of them were caught trying to kill Americans; the others were caught
plotting to kill Americans.
If you punish someone in war, it's called KILLING. That's the purpose of war, or else you civilians wouldn't send us out to kill for you.
The cause never equals the death of someone, because, as I said, causes change; borders change, and if we refuse to go do your bidding, you will murder
us for not following your orders...so you can see why I believe in survival only.
The reason a person is entirely helpless is because he doesn't have a gun or bomb in his hand, trying to murder you for his cause. If torture keeps you alive, it is VERY necessary for survival.
I never heard anyone on the battlefield, while dying horribly for your cause, cried out "Thank God I'm dying for liberty" or "Thank God I'm dying for my leader, who thinks he can be more powerful if he defeats this country".
Ever wonder what it would be like if the soldiers got to keep the land they died for instead of the leaders? That would take away your incentive to send us out to the maiming fields - no profit, no war...no objective, no need to interrogate anyone, and
no more tears for your enemy...-
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Beau78907 months, 3 weeks ago
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99.9% of them were caught trying to kill Americans; the others were caught
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plotting to kill Americans.
Got anything substantive to back up that assertion?
If you punish someone in war, it's called KILLING. That's the purpose of war, or else you civilians wouldn't send us out to kill for you.
Um, no. Wars are fought to get something from the other side. Punishment for no other reason is sadistic. Doesn't the military teach you at any point what wars are for? If not, that's a fundamental omission.
I never heard anyone on the battlefield, while dying horribly for your cause, cried out "Thank God I'm dying for liberty" or "Thank God I'm dying for my leader, who thinks he can be more powerful if he defeats this country".
So if you didn't want to be there, why did you fight? Were you conscripted? Forced? Did you never have an opportunity to desert?
Please don't refer to "your incentive to send us out" when talking to me. I've never sent anyone to war. -
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dissent7 months, 3 weeks ago
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"99.9% of them were caught trying to kill Americans; the others were caught
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plotting to kill Americans."
bullsh*t.
if this were true then they would be charged, tried and punished. they are not because there is no evidence. the supposed need for torture is evidence that there is no evidence!! you make this up as you go along.
oh, and i never sent you out to kill anyone. that's a career path you chose all by yourself. the "cause" is all yours. try taking responsibility for it
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quackpot7 months, 3 weeks ago
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Your dislike of some passages of the Koran justifies, in your mind, the torture of anybody who reads it?
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Just who do you propose to be a candidate for torture? How will these particular people be identified?
In one post you suggest that being a citizen of a particular country is an adequate basis. In another you suggest that being a member of one of the worlds leading religions is an adequate basis. Such though is not even dangerous, it is simply absurd.-
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cheif7 months, 3 weeks ago
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You still don't remember the beheading of Pearl who committed sin of being American.
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It appears you're VERY selective when remembering things Americans do, but apologetic for the atrocities committed by others against Americans.
I guess you would have been one of the people eating peanuts and drinking beer while watching the Bataan death march, or watching McCain being beaten and tortured for YEARS because he was an American...they didn't take pictures or waterboard him...ever wonder why he can't raise his arm high enough to salute the flag? Did you apologize to the Vietnamese for his pain and
praise their torture methods against him - whose atrocity was following YOUR orders?
Yes, killing someone because they're American is absurd...but they've been doing it for years, or don't they get the news where you live? Remember 9/11; 244 Marines murdered in their sleep; the two embassies in Africa? I could go on an on, but they've
been at WAR with us for about 15 years and our leaders still think it's a law and order
thing and they're bad guys for not following our laws...if it's so absurd; interview one
of the women who get stoned to death by her relatives for being raped or wanting to
learn to read...you think they would agree with you and your point of law?-
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dissent7 months, 3 weeks ago
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"A Brief History of U.S. Interventions:
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1945 to the Present
The engine of American foreign policy has been fueled not by a devotion to any kind of morality, but rather by the necessity to serve other imperatives, which can be summarized as follows:
* making the world safe for American corporations;
* enhancing the financial statements of defense contractors at home who have contributed generously to members of congress;
* preventing the rise of any society that might serve as a successful example of an alternative to the capitalist model;
* extending political and economic hegemony over as wide an area as possible, as befits a "great power."
This in the name of fighting a supposed moral crusade against what cold warriors convinced themselves, and the American people, was the existence of an evil International Communist Conspiracy, which in fact never existed, evil or not.
The United States carried out extremely serious interventions into more than 70 nations in this period."
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Blum/US_Interven...
now that "communism" is a ghost of its former self the new "ism" to justify our interventions is "terrorism." its intangibility makes it a far more mutable and adaptable excuse to better suit our imperial agenda
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cheif7 months, 3 weeks ago
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As I said before - when someone cuts your throat on national tv,
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yelling ALLA AKBAR, they're following a religious ceremony of death TAUGHT in their koran...do you think this justifies what they did to Dan Pearl?
I don't think they should torture those people; just do as the Russians did when they caught a few of them committing atrocities on them - shoot them; pour pig's blood all over them, and put them in a hole and forget them - I remember they let one go to tell the others what happened - didn't happen anymore...-
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dissent7 months, 3 weeks ago
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for someone who claims to have seen all the horror that a battlefield can deliver you are overly fascinated by what can be seen on tv.
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what we don't see or hear much of on tv or any place else is the more than a million dead iraqis, the 4 million iraqi refugees, the thousands of dead afghans.... guess they had it coming to them, huh?
or maybe, like pearl, they were in the wrong place at the wrong time. difference is, they were in their own homes, schools, workplaces, farms, weddings, hospitals, mosques, cars, etc. and most importantly.... they were in their own countries -- wrong place, wrong time, huh? :|
i've got a fair idea their surviving loved ones feel much the same about you as you do about the killers of daniel pearl. it's that feeling that feeds their hatred just as it feeds yours.-
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DenCuddy7 months, 3 weeks ago
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Ole Cheif is a sadistic son of a bitch. Period. He just wants to torture people or defend those that do torture people. Any excuse is good enough for him. Instead of being ashamed about these memos, he tries to justify a horrendous situation.
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PainGoddess7 months, 3 weeks ago
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I have heard of our guys in Iraq and Afganistan putting a little pigs grease on the ammo before using it.......You know from breakfast...lol
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Nothing justifies what those basturds did to Dan Pearl. Nobody deserves that.
But a little revenge on our part can go a long way if done subtle.....
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berkeley7 months, 3 weeks ago
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why did the nytimes suddenly decide bybee is no longer mr. nice? he was part of the power structure that we all knew was responsible for the many crimes of the last few years. the droids at the nytimes knew this as well, yet did they complain during his confirmation hearing?
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they didn't. so what changed?
now bybee's name is on the front page for a different reason, and they are going along with the chorus.
while i'm glad to read they want him gone, it doesn't begin to compensate for their aiding and abetting bush and cheney for years. -
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coolslow7 months, 3 weeks ago
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I don't think that anyone likes the idea of the US using torture, but the definition is not universdally accepted. Waterboarding could perhaps be torture, but what else? I'm sure the cry of "one victom is too many", will be raised, but a little perspective before going to international courts for indictments of crimes against humanity is called for:
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1) Perhaps not 100% but a very high percentage of those subjected to harsh treatment were battlefield captures, or arrests from known terrorist cells or organizations who committed and are planning attacks.
2) The legal status of these individuals as combatants or criminals is uncertain, even more so now. Their physical location is also uncertain.
3) It is a matter of conjecture as to the usefulness of information obtained from the subject. Some say it has no value, others say it has high value.
4) An extremely limited number of individuals, not thousands, or hundreds, or even scores, have been subjected. Have any been killed or suffered lasting physical incapacities?
5) Stress inducing measures taken to cause disorientation and weaken resistance are effective. These captured are pretty tough characters, accustomed to harsh conditions in developing countries, dedicted to a cause and likely trained to resist interrogation. A few smokes and a cup of coffe and friendly banter aren't likely to have them give up information. Why wouldn't they lie?
6) US Marine boot camp is about as tough, including being dropped in a pool with full gear and backpack.-
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Progressive7 months, 3 weeks ago
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"Have any been killed or suffered lasting physical incapacities?"
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...the 519th Military Intelligence, the Army unit that set interrogation guidelines for Abu Ghraib, had...worked closely with the CIA, learning torture techniques that left at least one Afghani prisoner dead.
http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0909-16.htm
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Progressive7 months, 3 weeks ago
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A former senior interrogator in Iraq says that abusing prisoners results in unreliable information, costs American lives, and it still hasn’t turned up Bin Laden.
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http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/200...-
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Progressive7 months, 3 weeks ago
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CIA Tactics Can Cause Mental Harm: Doctors
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http://www.newser.com/story/56630/cia-tactics-can-...
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