Champions of Torture »
Posted By Spadecaller 6 months, 3 weeks ago in Political News
Champions of Torture is a video featuring the recent discoveries obtained from the release of memoranda on detentions, interrogations, and warrantless wiretapping. The presentation identifies the crafters and administrators of a torture system that was purposely constructed during the Bush years to evade the laws governing the protection of human rights. American Composer Samuel Barber's Adagio for Strings ( from the movie, Platoon) accompanies this Spadecaller video.
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Spadecaller
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Spadecaller6 months, 3 weeks ago
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The scope of secret memos about torture, surveillance, and warrantless wiretapping is astonishing. The revelations thus far obtained from the release of recent memos demand accountability.
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Members of Congress that were complicit with a nation that defied Congressional and international law may avoid supporting their responsibilities and remain silent or find excuses to object to prosecuting war criminals, but it is really up to the American people that have remained silent. Blind nationalism in the aftermath of 9-11 opened the door to these atrocities; nonetheless, ultimately it is up to the American people (We the People) to defend our constitution from enemies, foreign and domestic.
Even more dangerous than enemy combatant Osama bin Laden are the enemy combatants that circumvented the Geneva convention and violated human rights through torture, surveillance, and detentions without fair hearings.
Without a mandate from the American people in support of the world view that abhors the war crimes perpetrated by the Bush administration, our nation will remain detached from our duty to avoid the next illegal take over of our nation by a rogue and corrupt administration.
The fact remains; in addition to members from the former administration we have judges and members of Congress still holding positions of authority that need to be investigated, prosecuted, and impeached.
The bottom line rests with the electorate, we the people. What can be said about a nation that looks the other way at those who abuse the laws of humanity?-
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b-happy6 months, 3 weeks ago
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So why they cut the heads off of men and lay IED's we put them in prison and feed them, give them TV, and make sure our tax dollars are spent protecting the terrorists that are trying to kill our soldiers?
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Where is the logic in that? When did it come to the point that treating terrorists nice was the American way?
Amazing to me that you scream about this, and then you say nothing when Obama shakes hands with Chavez and Cuba leaders who are some of the biggest civil rights abusers in the world today? Where is your outrage over that?
Is it that you just hate AMerica that much? I don't understand where you are coming from.
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Spadecaller6 months, 3 weeks ago
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Cheney's quote in the video, "it will be necessary to be a nation of men, and not laws," was particularly revealing, I thought.
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His view leads me to the conclusion that a lawless nation is not a nation of "men", but a nation of unprincipled cowards. -
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rimbaudComment removed: Spam
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Spadecaller6 months, 3 weeks ago
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The Justice Department said in legal filings that it will no longer use the term "enemy combatants' to justify holding prisoners at Guantanamo Bay.
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"This is really a case of old wine in new bottles," the Center for Constitutional Rights, which has been fighting the detainees' detention, said in a statement. "It is still unlawful to hold people indefinitely without charge. The men who have been held for more than seven years by our government must be charged or released."
William Haynes statement concerning illegal detention: “Wait a minute, we can’t have acquittals. If we’ve been holding these guys for so long, how can we explain letting them get off? …We’ve got to have convictions.”
An "enemy combatant" according to its original definition was "Any person in an armed conflict who could be properly detained under the laws and customs of war."
According to history and precedent then, Bush, Cheney, Rice, Rumsfeld, Ashcroft, Haynes, Bypee, and Gonzales are also enemy combatants. -
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jovial6 months, 3 weeks ago
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Man is his worst enemy. I just can imagine the country that I love so much could be a party to atrocities such as this. As a young sailor I traveled to many countries thinking that America was all that was just and right in the world. That we were a fair and just nation. That we weren't barbaric. As I see now that was just a facade, to cover up the true evil that resides in the hearts of some men. It makes me realize that there is evil here as well as there. The only thing that makes us different is we have the ability to speak out about it. In some countries that is not the case. I thank the forefathers of this country that gave us a set of laws and a bill of rights that allow us to speak out against tyranny. There are those out there that would like to silence us. Remember Bush said" This would be a lot easier if this were a dictatorship" Thank goodness, thank America, he never got his way.
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Spadecaller6 months, 3 weeks ago
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Thanks jov. But we, as Americans, must exercise that right to speak out and to denounce tyranny and the barbaric brutality of despots -- even and especially when they are American.
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I always would want to see our nation represent the best of our virtues embodied in our constitution, the Magna Carta, and the Bill of Rights. When there are those that abuse these rights, we must advocate their impeachment and rededicate ourselves.
It is that shared responsibility that I believe we must emphasize as Americans; because it is the silent, the complicit, and the apathetic that can preserve or ultimately destroy our fragile freedoms. -
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rumple4skin6 months, 3 weeks ago
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Your post reminded me - As a young soldier I remember standing portside on a ship in Bremerhaven thinking how very proud I was being part of the worlds greatest Army. I, too, traveled to many countries thinking that America was all that was just and right in the world.
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Thank you, jovial, for reminding me that the composite nation is greater than its singular leaders.
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HOUSEMD6 months, 3 weeks ago
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my congratulations to all you who would let the terrorists keep their secrets and kill your countrymen. that is what i call bravery in the face of a vicious foe. are you so sure that if we had not gotten the info we did, that you or some of your family might not have been killed by their planned attacks? what gives you the great insight into the minds of the terrorists, that you would trust them to NOT have plans to do worse damage to the USA that they already did????
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this is purely a political attack by the democrats...not to further any "constitutional" issue.-
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Ratskii6 months, 3 weeks ago
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Said it before, but here goes again, Housemd.
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1) Torture is useful in eliciting false confessions -- this has been its main use historically. It is not particularly good for getting actionable intelligence. Please stop getting all your information from the tv program, 24.
2) The more we behave like the people we are fighting, the less we have to fight for. -
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Gransater6 months, 3 weeks ago
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Housemed
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You mean you are congratulating yourselves? When are you going to aknowledge that torture doesn't work. Haven't that been proven sufficiently yet? What quantity of useful information was obtained using torture?? The interdiction of terrorist act, both here and in the UK has been acomplished by using that old proven method, a perservaring police force doing what they are trained to do, investigate.
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Desdamona6 months, 3 weeks ago
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By behaving in this manner we allowed our government to become what we were fighting against. And for what? These horrible acts served as a rallying call for the terrorist organizations. Torture... giving the rest of the world a valid reason to hate us... The information gained was not and could never be worth the respect and dignity of this great nation and the cost results in a net loss to our safty not a gain... Professional interrogators are writing books explaining that this is not the way to get the information that we need. It only makes it harder to make them speak. If you have to waterboard someone more then 100 times then there is not value to it. Only to releive the anger and torture should not be this countries wepon of revenge when freedome works just as well.
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Spadecaller6 months, 3 weeks ago
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“It is better that ten
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guilty escape than one innocent suffer.”
Of course the bible thumpers usually pick and choose the verse that best supports their agendas. Nonetheless, the wisdom of the civilized has always believed that it is best to free the alleged guilty then to risk persecuting the innocent.
On the other hand, it is savage and counterproductive to abuse even the guilty. Information obtained from torturing, maiming, and killing detainees is not reliable information.
And those that practice cruelty become at least as deranged as their "evil" victims. -
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Spadecaller6 months, 3 weeks ago
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Jim Haynes who served as the General Counsel of the Department of Defense and who was appointed by former president Bush describes the real concerns of those that so adamantly defend torture:
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“Wait a minute, we can’t have acquittals. If we’ve been holding these guys for so long, how can we explain letting them get off? …We’ve got to have convictions.”
They are desperate because they are war criminals and most Americans and the world are now learning about the missing memos that prove their deceit and cunning was illegal, loathsome, and un-American.
The defenders of torture will drop this story and probably begin their usual attacks on the messengers and not the message. -
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dailyblueberry6 months, 3 weeks ago
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Hi spadecaller. Thanks for the invite on this one. You are a very talented video editor and are keenly aware of what motivates the heart. One criticism about the video itself. If you're video requires that you place an editing photo of "Bush At Abu", then you dumbing down the atrocities. It makes it look like your argument won't hold ground unless that's in there. Honest criticism!!!
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I'll be honest with you Spade, I have struggled with this issue of torture for a while now, and do still. Take those events out of the context of war, and I can't find any justification for that kind of treatment. Put it into the context of war, with a regime, it sets a bad example and then motivates that regime to do the same to those Americans who are captured. Put it into the context of war, with a militant group with no state, it serves to show that our military cannot defeat the little guy by conventional means. Put it in the context of Jesus telling us to "turn the other cheek" and it simply shows my sinful nature.
Put it, though, in the following context. I see two of my neighbors punching and shoving my son into a car. He 4 years old. One neighbor drives off with my son, while I grab the other neighbor and subdue him. If I didn't immediately get info as to where the other neighbor was taking my son..........fill in the blanks here. I think in my weak state, I could do things far worse than what I saw in the video in order to obtain information to protect and defend my son.
I know that's a very personal example, and really doesn't justify any position as far as this debate goes, but it's where I'm at. The issue of torture creates more questions for me. How do I obtain the information that is necessary to protect our land? If information is not the primary protection device, then how do we build a virtual "wall" around our borders to protect our land?
I do appreciate those who are on the siding with the "preservation of life."
Again I say, why would "we the people" allow our government to grow unchecked, when we are this unsatified with how they represent us?-
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Spadecaller6 months, 3 weeks ago
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Hi dailyblue
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When a nation forgoes providing a fair and prompt hearing to ALLEGED enemies, then holds them in prison for years during which time they are tortured, is that something you can condone? The most basic rights of all prisoners established long before our nation was the right to a fair and prompt hearing. How can you or anyone justify eliminating that basic right?
The same is true of your hypothetical story about your 4 year old son; how many alleged perpetrators would you beat up and torture for the "chance" you might find your son's abductor? How would you feel about yourself upon discovering that you destroyed the lives of some innocent people in your pursuit of justice?
How would you feel if you killed someone who confessed to murdering your son, just so that you would stop the torture?
A nation of laws must be held to a much higher standards than what we have witnessed from the Bush administration.
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Icantwait6 months, 3 weeks ago
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My Fellow Americans; It has been extremely refreshing reading some Patriotic responses instead of this constant Bushs' fault dialogue. Thuthiness cited some examples of Obama campaign promises he made and has fulfilled. Is Guantanamo now closed and if it is what makes you think the normal Americans wanted it closed for these terrorist to be let loose to kill more of our countrymen. I know we are still in Iraq so, promise not fulfilled. Torture Illegal? What torture are you refering to yelling, holding face, making a them stand at the wall, or washing their scummy butts oopps faces? improving public transportation, Yah, pay to take a train, and then a cab or bus. All along get rid of the safe SUVs and Pick Up Trucks for the little suicide machines with the non disposable batteries that last only two years and cost an arm and leg to replace. Reform health care for the illegal aliens? fulfilled. Opening conversations with foreign governments? On his hands and knees? I agree fulfilled. How about more jobs, Not. Fixing the banking situation, Not. Getting the auto industry out of the red with bailout money. Not. Only Ford improving without bailout money. Improving the economy, Not. Improving his popularity? Still attempting to fulfill. Honing his Teleprompter skills? Still Fulfilling. What Else? The Real American
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Spadecaller6 months, 3 weeks ago
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"What torture are you refering to yelling, holding face, making a them stand at the wall, or washing their scummy butts oopps faces?"
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The photos from Abu Ghraib are not enough proof for you. The memos are not enough proof for you.
Reality is not enough proof for you.
Your comment proves to me that the video pictures of the blind man with his head wrapped in the American flag are quite accurate.
Icantwait needs to try out some waterboarding, sleep deprivation, prolonged use of stress positions, sexual exploitation, electrocution, mutilation with knives, and confinement in a box infested with insects ... and then a change in attitude might be possible.
And you think you are a "real American"? LMAO -
eezzbeatComment removed: Hard Banned
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Ciera-Marie6 months, 3 weeks ago
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IF it was wrong for the Japanese and other dictators to do, then it is wrong for us. If we condone it we owe them all an apology.
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How can water boarding not be torture now, but when the Japanese did it we executed their officers who did it? HYPOCRITICAL don't you think?
Again, question (not expecting to get an answer from them. Locky, Lloyd, and tangy you're all blocked so don't bother.) how is torturing someone 183 times not torture? How do you know that all 183 times he didn't contradict himself? Have you witnessed it? Has it been done to you and would you volunteer yourself or family members to demonstrate that it's not torture? If you don't think it's not torture but won't volunteer to demonstrate it nor your family members why not? Either it is or isn't. -
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cheif6 months, 3 weeks ago
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When I went through SERE training, the reason we were subjected to such brutality was because we knew if we were caught on a battlefield, we were going to be subjected to horrendous torture and death.
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Our fighting men have NEVER been protected by the Geneva Convention and never will be. The Nuremberg trials were held because of something Germany did to other people - not Americans...if anyone thinks torture and brutality is good, ask
McCain...he can tell you a couple things about it.
When can we complain about what has been to us over the years?
I personally was captured and my tendon was cut to ensure I
couldn't run - was that acceptable? I would have LOVED a visit from the ACLU or anybody who would look at things from my perspective...if they can do this and be forgiven, why is it everyone is so angry at us for giving just a little back to them?
We just embarrassed a few people who we killing some good Americans - none of them walked away with scars, mentally or physically, like we did...true, we are a nation of laws - we follow them; nobody else does...and when you cry about how terrible we are, think about what has been done to us for just a second...just like the 4 year old in some of the previous comments; I would get that information and protect my child...
if you're the kind who would allow your child to die because your balls are in a lawyer's briefs instead of yours, you have to live with that pain also...-
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donald516 months, 3 weeks ago
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chief, you are deluded.... the Geneva conventions have surely helped some, even to moderate the torure they were subjected to. But enemies knowing the US tortures, know that the Geneva conventions mean nothing. Hey, Dumya vetoed a Defense Bill that would have allowed Sadam tortured soldiers to sue Iraq ! How corrupt can you right wingers be?
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You are an un-American puke to support a past corrupt president who not only backed out of Geneva, the Nuclear ( he couldn't pronounce the word even) Non-Proliferation Act, the World Courts, and the Kyota Agreement. You are un-American to be so unprincipled and show no conscience for your fellow man! Like the Air Force pukes who made the anti-Kerry lying, swift boat commercials.
Quit throwing your minimal sere experience around ( a puke Air Force Gentleman's course for sure - don't dare hurt any of those pretty boy pilots)... I did the same in the Army Ranger Course, before they threw out the Sere portion when several actually died in the course! -
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Spadecaller6 months, 3 weeks ago
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cheif:
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"Why is it everyone is so angry at us for giving just a little back to them"?
Only a bitter vengeful person looking for a pound of flesh from anyone available could make such a bizarre comment. I know what it is to live life with that kind of hatred. I pity you.
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CHAM6 months, 3 weeks ago
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A profound video Spadecaller. I keep wondering why I don't see the mention of the people who were tortured to death. The analogy of the kidnapped 4 year old was on target and see, the fact is that most of the people who were tortured had no information to give. Actually most of those "enemy combatants" were not enemy combatants. Over 90% of those at Gitmo were there because they were sold for bounty by Afghan Warloards and Pakistani Tribesmen.
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What it all adds up to is that most of those tortured to death were totally innocent. Since tens of thousands were tortured, how many innocents were tortured.
And it is a Republican thing. The core Republicans support torture because admitting that it was evil means that they have to admit that they supported evil. They just can't help themselves. Pray Republicans never come for you. Evil is as Evil does.-
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Spadecaller6 months, 3 weeks ago
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Thanks CHAM... The wholesale purchase of "alleged" terrorists by paying bounties to poverty stricken Pakistanis was not a smart idea; the result was that we imprisoned people that were innocent of terrorist activities and were simply captured for the bounty of a body. After torturing these pour souls, the prospect of giving them a fair trial did not appeal to those Bush operatives who had become afraid that their "mistakes" would be exposed. And the cover-up began with rewriting laws secretly and appointing activist judges to support their miserable war crimes.
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AndyJ2156 months, 3 weeks ago
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The Republicans seem have nothing left but lies, name-calling, excuses and the word, "No".
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THE GOP IS THE PARTY THAT CLAIMS TO HAVE CHRISTIAN "FAMILY VALUES," but promoted the TORTURE OF PRISONERS, in violation of international law, according to THE INTERNATIONAL RED CROSS.
There are many sources for that fact. Here’s one:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/03/16/terror/m...
And still, they try to deny that it happened or otherwise “cover” for it.
(The GOP is also the party of sex offenders Larry Craig and Mark Foley, graft expert Ted “free house” Stevens, convicted dirty trickster and burglar G. Gordon Liddy, lobbyist and GOP bribery expert Jack Abramoff, etc., etc.)
REPUBLICANS: THE PARTY OF FAMILY VALUES, BANKER BAILOUTS, CONVICTED FELONS, COVER-UPS AND TORTURE!
*** All or any part of this comment may be copied, re-posted, etc.
*** No copyright is claimed on it. -
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rimbaud6 months, 3 weeks ago
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We can survive terrorism with good police work and international cooperation. Using desparate means inflates the importance of the terrorists: are we really soooo afraid of them? Have they really succeeded so well against us? One thing I liked about Ronald Reagan was that he gave you the feeling that there were no problems facing us that could not be worked on in a routine 8-hour day. That's the way it is with terrorism: roll up your sleeves and do the job, instead of making it the prelude to armageddon -- something we need to lose our souls over.
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