Comments for For American Jews, Dissent Against Israel Has Become Mainstream »
Posted By dissent 7 months, 4 weeks ago in NewsFirst, a confession: It may tell me that I hate myself, but I can't help loving Masada2000, the website maintained by militant right-wing Zionist followers of Rabbi Meir Kahane. The reason I love it is its D.I.R.T. list -- that's "Dense anti-Israel Repugnant Traitors" (also published as the S.H.I.T. list of "Self-Hating and Israel-Threatening" Jews). And that's not because I get a bigger entry than -- staying in the Ks -- Henry Kissinger, Michael Kinsley, Naomi Klein, or Ted Koppel. The Kahanists are a pretty flaky lot, counting everyone from Woody Allen to present Prime Minister Ehud Olmert on their list of Jewish traitors. But the habit of branding Jewish dissidents -- those of us who reject the nationalist notion that as Jews, our fate is tied to that of Israel, or the idea that our people's historic suffering somehow exempts Israel from moral reproach for its abuses against others -- as "self-haters" is not unfamiliar to me.
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dissent7 months, 4 weeks ago
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a slightly dated article but one that remains relevant all the same. from my pov, one that is well-reasoned and discussed
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fta
"When I arrived in the United States 13 years ago, I was often surprised to find that people with whom I seemed to share a progressive, cosmopolitan worldview would suddenly morph into raging ultranationalists when the conversation turned to Israel."
progressive, cosmopolitan....... ultra-nationalists.
hmmmmm...... sound like any of the propeller members you know?-
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dissent7 months, 4 weeks ago
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fta
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"More immediately threatening to the Zionist establishment, however, is another reality: Many Jews are beginning to make once unthinkable criticisms of Israel's behavior. If you want to bludgeon Jewish critics with the charge of "anti-Semitism" when they challenge Israel's actions, then it's hardly helpful to have other Jews standing up and expressing the same thoughts." -
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bgamall7 months, 4 weeks ago
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My natural father was Jewish. I am adopted and raised by Gentiles. Yet I hate what the neocons have done and some of them were Jewish descendents. I want those who support Israel like I do to realize that Israel should not tie her future to neocons as they are very unethical, even amoral people. Study about Leo Strauss and you will see that what I am saying is true, since he was the intellectual father of PNAC (who wanted a 9/11 type event and got it) and of the neocons. Much but not all of Zionism is atheistic, like Strauss, who embraced Nazi principles before coming to the University of Chicago where he taught Paul Wolfowitz. http://hubpages.com/hub/George-Bush-Legacy
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Justice4All7 months, 4 weeks ago
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A good example would be the movie "Religilious" by Bill Maher. It was sold as a movie that mocks religion but about three quarters of the way through Bill Maher interviews a Jewish leader who proudly claimed he was not a zionist. At that point Bill Maher turned into one of those raging untranationalists.
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It's difficult being Jewish and standing up to Israel, but I applaud those who do it.
And yes, this does remind me of a few Propeller members. -
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Thinker227 months, 4 weeks ago
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>Remember his famous letter to the New York Times where he compared zionism with facism.
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Somehow I can not remember such letter, "Justice", probably because there never was one. You see, Einstein NEVER compared Zionism with Fascism, he complained about the actions of Jewish militants... just like those complaining about the actions of Arab militants do not necessarily claim that ALL Arabs are terrorists.
Besides, if you believe that Einstein was NOT a Zionist how come the Zionist leaders of Israel offered him to become the President of the Zionist state?-
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Thinker227 months, 3 weeks ago
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Absolutely, "Justice". A letter where Einstein compared Zionism with fascism does not exist.
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The authors of the letter in the link you've provided, DID NOT compare Zionism with fascism as you've falsely claimed. They DID compare the Heruth ("Freedom") Party, the Jewish militants... just like I've explained in my post above.
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Natureboy7 months, 3 weeks ago
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If we are to be agonizingly correct, Einstein was calling out the revisionist zionists, most particularly the Irgun Zwei Lumi, on the occasion of the terrorist and fascist Menachem Begin visiting New York.
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Some will be eager to point out that the Irgun, the Stern Gang, etc did not and do not represent all of zionism. It is important to note, however, that the vast majority of Israel's leaders since its inception have been just such fascists, terrorist members of the Irgun and the Stern Gang, and followers of their ideological father, Zev Jabotinsky.
The government of Israel has been, and is, a fascist state. And the ultranationalism, racism and ethnic supremacy which its leaders subscribe to has been and is a shame and a disgrace to Judaism.-
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Natureboy7 months, 3 weeks ago
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Here's a link to Einstein's letter
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http://www.globalwebpost.com/farooqm/study_res/ein... -
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AnteUp7 months, 4 weeks ago
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Maybe they were not subjected to the constant campaign to show proper
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for the Holocaust by NEVER criticizing Israel - as we have.
Get a mailing from the Holocaust Museum and what is included?
A letter from Elie Wiesel talking about the threat of Iran!
I found it very distasteful.-
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AnteUp7 months, 3 weeks ago
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Yeah - I've noticed. Sad though, I used to think he was so wonderful.
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Sometimes ignorance is bliss!
But the narrowness of concern for human rights has begun to show -
for quite a few of my previous "heroes". Concern for the violation of
same - should be instinctual............you shouldn't have to check their
passport - or birth registration first before you decide if they're worth
the fuss - eh?
The suffering of innocents should bring the same response - but
try bringing up the children of Gaza and you will find that the lips thin -
the chin goes up - the eyes narrow and the response is, "That's
what they want - it's how they get publicity." Plus - because you even
brought up the subject.............YOU are now suspect.
Must be truly awful for Israeli Jews who feel as we do - I would
imagine Home Sweet Home could be a very scary and unfriendly
place for them with so many rightwing extremists gaining political
power - Yes?
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engineer7 months, 4 weeks ago
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All the BS from a fringe rag. There is a tiny fringe group of mostly Hasidic Jews who have always been antiIsrael. The population of Jews in the US is 6 million of which Hasidic Jews represent 180,000 or about 3 percent. There are a few others, but hardly mainstream
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dissent7 months, 4 weeks ago
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firstly, to counter your attack on both the author and news source....
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fta
"Tony Karon is a senior editor at TIME.com."
"Tony Karon is a journalist from Cape Town, South Africa and has been living in New York since 1993 after leaving South Africa.
He studied at the University of Cape Town in the 1980's where he was a prominent anti-apartheid and anti-Israel activist in student movement NUSAS." (source: wikipedia)
from alternet.org's "about us" page:
"AlterNet is an award-winning news magazine and online community that creates original journalism and amplifies the best of hundreds of other independent media sources. AlterNet's aim is to inspire action and advocacy on the environment, human rights and civil liberties, social justice, media, health care issues, and more. Since its inception in 1998, AlterNet.org has grown dramatically to keep pace with the public demand for independent news. We provide free online content to millions of readers, serving as a reliable filter, keeping our vast audience well-informed and engaged, helping them to navigate a culture of information overload and providing an alternative to the commercial media onslaught. Our aim is to stimulate, inform, and instigate.
AlterNet receives more than 3 million monthly visitors and more than 7.5 million monthly page views. AlterNet's readers comprise a strong base, who help virally spread AlterNet content to their networks by forwarding stories and emailing links. Many of AlterNet's readers come from search engines (like Google) and news aggregator sites (such as Digg or Reddit), a testament to the fact that AlterNet reaches beyond the typical "choir" of progressive readers."
secondly, are you saying that jews that critize israel's actions are hasidic jews? is that how you dismiss such criticism? by drawing ethnic divisions?
is specific jewish ethnicity really such a key factor in the determination of jewish loyalty, or for that matter, the lack of it, to israel? or is it possible that individuals who happen to be jewish are able to think freely and independently for themselves and not be subjected to the "group think" of any specific ethnic subdivision? what is the specific jewish ethnicity of what you believe to be the "mainstream" of 6 million american jews? is this particular ethnic jewish subdivision uniformly and unquestioningly loyal to israel?-
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dissent7 months, 4 weeks ago
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incidentally, tony karon is a self-confessed heathen....
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"I’ll not pretend to have much in common with the Hasidic idea of Judaism. The idea of a god who frowns upon Jews turning on and off the lights in their homes on the sabbath, but is quite happy for them to employ a “shabbos-goy” to do it for them, looks to my eye like a mockery. What I find interesting about the Satmars, however, is their principled consistency: So much Talmudic scholarship and jurisprudence appears, to my heathen eye, to involve creating elaborate rationalizations for actions that would otherwise be deemed contrary to Jewish Halachic law (e.g. you shouldn’t turn on and off the lights, but you can get a “shabbos goy” to do it — and that’s one of tens of thousands of examples). So, while most of the Hasidic sects had no part of Zionism before World War II, when the State of Israel emerged as a reality many of them adjusted their Talmudic reading of the prophesies to allow them to recognize — and benefit from — it."
http://tonykaron.com/2006/04/27/as-the-rebbe-goes-... -
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engineer7 months, 4 weeks ago
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Remember I mentioned the Hasidic Jews. In you reference, You mentioned those which I pointed out are antiIsrael Jews. They protest at every Israel function. Alternet is as far left as Fox is far right. It is not fair and balanced. Your sources should come from nonbiased sources. Both lose they validity from both sides!
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Dionys7 months, 4 weeks ago
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"There is a tiny fringe group of mostly Hasidic Jews who have always been antiIsrael. The population of Jews in the US is 6 million of which Hasidic Jews represent 180,000 or about 3 percent. "
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Do you know where the name ' Hasidic ' comes from? Who the hassidim are?-
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Thinker227 months, 3 weeks ago
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Seriously, Engineer is absolutely right saying that the anti-Israeli Jews are ultra-religious, mostly Hasidic followers of the thesis that the Jewish State can only be restored when the Massiah comes... and NO, they do not include the largest group of Hasidic Jews, the Habad or the followers of the Lubavicher Rabbi.
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AnteUp7 months, 3 weeks ago
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engineer -
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"A TINY fringe group" ?? Have you looked at their election results - have you
seen the results of the survey of high school aged students' preference......Avigdor Lieberman!
It may not be reported here - but you can find other news sources online........
and it is NOT all anti-Semitic propaganda.
The extreme rightwing uses fear to gain popularity - the Bush years should
be a reminder of just how far a nation can stray from it's stated ideals if you
can frighten the public.
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Thinker227 months, 4 weeks ago
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>I think, it´s quite normal, not to agree with every governmental action of "your country", but this doesn´t mean to hate it.
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This is correct. This is the reason millions of Jews in Israel and other places criticize these or other actions of Israeli government and no one would suggest they are anti-Semites. Those who "criticize" the VERY EXISTENCE of Israel are indeed hateful racist anti-Semites.-
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Dionys7 months, 3 weeks ago
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"Those who "criticize" the VERY EXISTENCE of Israel are indeed hateful racist anti-Semites."
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Why? Because you say so?
Probably a lot of them are, but merely criticizing the existence of Israel as a country that was forced upon the region doesn't make someone anti-Semitic or Anti-Jewish.-
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Thinker227 months, 3 weeks ago
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>"Those who "criticize" the VERY EXISTENCE of Israel are indeed hateful racist anti-Semites."
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> Why? Because you say so?
No. Because they ARE... just like anyone "criticizing" the existence of YOU, Dionys, claiming that YOU should be exterminated because of your race or ethnicity.
> ...merely criticizing the existence of Israel as a country that was forced upon the region doesn't make someone anti-Semitic or Anti-Jewish.
Only if this "criticizing" also "criticizes" the existence of any other country on Earth for the very same reason. Do you agree that "criticizing" the existence of Spain, for example, because this country was "forced upon hte region" would be pretty racist if the existence of Italy, Greece, France and Portugal is not "criticized"?
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Progressive7 months, 4 weeks ago
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FTA:
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"It's worth remembering in this context that anti-Zionism was originally a Jewish movement -- the majority of European Jews before World War II rejected the Zionist movement and its calls for a mass migration from Europe to build a Jewish nation-state in Palestine."
Thanks for the invite, dissent. I'm not Jewish, but all of the people I know "who happen to be Jewish are able to think freely and independently for themselves and not be subjected to the 'group think' of any specific ethnic subdivision."-
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dissent7 months, 4 weeks ago
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"I'm not Jewish, but all of the people I know "who happen to be Jewish are able to think freely and independently for themselves and not be subjected to the 'group think' of any specific ethnic subdivision.""
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my maternal grandfather was a zionist who died shortly after ww2. while i haven't been raised as a jew or have any sense of jewishness other than my mother's fundamentalist reverence of biblical israel, hitler probably would have classified me in the affirmative.
but frankly, it's of no great importance to me. i don't care whether someone is jewish or not, unless it becomes an impediment to themselves and/or others.
a person's race, ethnicity, religion, gender, socio-economic status or even nationality and the 'group think' they all can engender, should never take precedence over their humanity and their ability to think for themselves. of course we, including our thinking, can't help but be shaped by the group/s in which we are nurtured, but as long as we're aware of that the process of critical and thus independent thought has begun.
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Edmar147 months, 4 weeks ago
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This is the perfect example of the first amendment at work. It is just another article written by another author with another viewpoint. I doubt strongly that he can give factual statistics, but whatever he wants to write, the first amendment will back him up. I am a proponent of the first amendment and recognize that our founding fathers realized that they could not regulate what people wanted to say, even if it could be counter pointed by another person. Another author would and could give an entirely different view point.
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Thinker227 months, 3 weeks ago
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> feel free to "counter" karon's viewpoint...
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Well, here it comes:
FTA:
"But the logic of suggesting it is "racist" to compare Israel to apartheid South Africa is simply bizarre. What if Israel objectively behaves like apartheid South Africa? What then?"
IF Israel objectively behaves like apartheid South Africa then of course... but IT DOES NOT!
Karon's "logic" somehow replaces OBJECTIVE EVIDENCE by a "what if" and then a fundamentally false (and racist) comparison based on the "what if" is made. To realize what's wrong with this kind of "logic" you may try to apply it to yourself, Dissent. What if someone suggested that you were a murderer and a child molester and then declared that there was nothing wrong with it because "What if Dissent objectively behaved like a murderer and a child molester?"... would you agree with this "logic"? -
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dissent7 months, 3 weeks ago
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there's more than enough evidence from a range of sources in all formats that says you're wrong tinker.
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wars against a mostly civilian population that has no defense force, berlin-inspired walls, concentration camp-like enclaves, staggering civilian death tolls, idf confessions to abuses and murder with impunity, human rights groups reports, the un reports and multiple resolutions, blockades, sieges, malicious and spitefully obstructive checkpoints, the complete israeli control of all palestinian airspace, coastline and land routes, biased judicial system, ethnic cleansing, land theft, fortified illegal settlements, point blank murders of protesters who have had their houses confiscated, point blank murders of palestinians by border patrols, israeli navy harassment and terrorizing of gazan fishermen, house demolitions and bulldozings, etc, etc, etc, etc.
there are literally mountains of evidence
the search box to the many threads is at the top of the page. but then you already know that, you've visited them all from your state of denial
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Commodore17 months, 4 weeks ago
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I've never known a Jew to act as if they are above moral reproach. Maybe I should get out more. I guess it can have a strong effect on you if someone tried to exterminate you and your race knowing there are still millions out there who want to try again. Let's face facts. There are million who agreed w/Hitler. Today the Muslims will only accept annihilation of the Jews as a whole. A sense of nationalism is probably necessary in order to ward off such attacks. Knowing there are that many who want to destroy U would make U paranoid wouldn't it? W/more and more people seeming to take a stand against Israel, the Jews will probably have no choice but to unite. It would be the best way to avoid extermination.
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aceofspades17 months, 4 weeks ago
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Commodore - I usually give you a hard time, but I have to side with you here.
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These fools who say "my father was Jewish" or my family was once Jewish will always live under the spectre of the notions used from time immemorial - from ancient times to Hitler - Jewish blood will out & you are marked whether you deny it or not.
For once in history there is a safe haven .-
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aceofspades17 months, 3 weeks ago
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if anything is clear it is that nothing is clear
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That's the problem you don't seem to be able to grasp - the definition is in the mind of the one doing the defining & all too often throughout history it is the oppressor of Jews who has been doing the defining-
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dissent7 months, 3 weeks ago
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I do grasp it, but this hiding in history has just become an excuse for the actions of today. today, israel and its zionist ideology does the defining. today, the jews have become their own oppressors, trapped in this self-perpetuating cycle of conflict and paranoia that feeds the current definition.
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imagine if there were no conflict and israel and its neighbors live in peace? what becomes of zionism then? it would cease to be relevant. and if there is anything an ideology fights hardest and most relentlessly against it is irrelevancy. zionism, by its very nature, has defined itself, and now by extension, jewishness, in conflict. conflict is its oxygen and it would wither and die without it.
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Dionys7 months, 4 weeks ago
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"I've never known a Jew to act as if they are above moral reproach."
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You and those that support Israeli action no matter how heinous and immoral tend to act exactly that way when speaking of any conflict in the middle east where Israel is involved.
"Today the Muslims will only accept annihilation of the Jews as a whole."
This is a baldfaced lie about Muslims. So much for ' morality', huh.
"A sense of nationalism is probably necessary in order to ward off such attacks. "
There's pride and then there's nationalism, but when you cross that line, you cross that line. Israel can ward off attacks without crossing that line.-
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Thinker227 months, 4 weeks ago
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>>"Today the Muslims will only accept annihilation of the Jews as a whole."
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> This is a baldfaced lie about Muslims. So much for ' morality', huh.
Well, this is what the Hamas Charter says (Article Seven: The Universality of Hamas):
"The prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said: The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him! ""
According to you, either the Hamas Charter is a "baldfaced lie about Muslims", the Prophet himself was a "baldfaced liar" or the "baldfaced liar" are YOU. Which possibility is more plausible, Dionys?-
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Dionys7 months, 3 weeks ago
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"Well, this is what the Hamas Charter says (Article Seven: The Universality of Hamas):"
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Hamas doesn't represent Muslims. It represents Hamas.
Where does it actually say that in the Qu'ran. Why are you quoting Hamas instead of the Qu' ran?
"either the Hamas Charter is a "baldfaced lie about Muslims"
Absolutely. The Hamas Charter is a charter of an extremist ideological group and likely filled with lots of hateful lies.-
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Thinker227 months, 3 weeks ago
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>Hamas doesn't represent Muslims. It represents Hamas.
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> Where does it actually say that in the Qu'ran. Why are you quoting Hamas instead of the Qu' ran?
I DID NOT say that Hamas represented ALL Muslims and I DID NOT say that the Prophet's words above were quoted from the Quran. I DID say that (according to Hamas) the Prophet ordered the Muslims to kill all Jews and I've included a link to the Hamas Charter as evidence. I've also said that, according to you, either the Hamas Charter was a "baldfaced lie about Muslims", the Prophet himself was a "baldfaced liar" or the "baldfaced liar" were YOU. Then I've asked which possibility was more plausible (Hamas was lying, the Prophet was lying or Dionys was lying).
Can you answer my simple question, Dionys? Somehow I suspect that you'll offer Hamas as a "baldfaced liar" but then you'll have to offer some explanation about the reasons YOU know better than ALL sheiks and religious authorities who participated in the writing of the Hamas Charter.
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Thinker227 months, 3 weeks ago
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I can assure you that the governemnt of Israel got elected for the same reasons (among others) as well. The government of Israel is helping provide Israelis with their basic needs including security.
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This being said, however, I believe that the Gazans elected a government that would do the best (from their point) government job in providing their "basic needs". They should not complain about the results, should they?
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dissent7 months, 3 weeks ago
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"W/more and more people seeming to take a stand against Israel, the Jews will probably have no choice but to unite. It would be the best way to avoid extermination."
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this is precisely what karon discusses in the article!.... how zionism has successfully defined what it means to be jewish and how the state of israel and its existence has become synonymous with it and essential to it. in other words, according to zionism, there is no jewishness without israel!
yet what has been established on this thread is that there are many definitions to jewishness, and many of them conflicting, even among the traditional jewish ethnic subdivisions. however it is zionism that has triumphed to become the dominant and universal "brand" of all things jewish. while the others have been shown, according to karon, to fall in line to one degree or another depending on how much they benefit from it
so the threat you put forward is that any jew who does not have this unquestioning loyalty to israel and its dominant brand, zionism, and is indeed critical of israel's frequently questionable actions must override or negate their own conscience and humanistic moral code for fear that if they don't unite with the "group think" they will face extermination. and only because they fall under a constantly mutating definition of jewishness. so they must submit to the "group think" demanded by this moveable feast of what they are told they are supposed to be..... whether they like it or not
it probably hasn't dawned on you, and i suspect it is unlikely to, but that's really quite insane. this is the kind of "group think" mentality that has been the fundamental ideological premise of history's greatest horror stories. and yet it is precisely what lies at the heart of the matter-
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Natureboy7 months, 3 weeks ago
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"W/more and more people seeming to take a stand against Israel, the Jews will probably have no choice but to unite. "
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"Today the Muslims will only accept annihilation of the Jews as a whole."
What do these statements have in common? Simple, and erroneous, stereotypical thinking.
To speak of all Jews or all Muslims as if they all share a common hive-mind is the very thought process of racism and biggotry.
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aceofspades17 months, 4 weeks ago
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To all you armchair pundits - This article is pure garbage because it chooses to use Kahane as the prime example of pro-Israel thought.
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I knew Kahane for what he was, a fascist, racist,bigoted thug.
I knew him when he started the JDL in 1968 when he was rabbi of the Rochdale Jewish Center in Queens New York. He took the opportunity of the NYC teachers strike , during which some anti-Semitic statements were made, to start his movement. The catchphrase "Never Again" was very appealing to many who lived in Rochdale who were survivors or first generation - con't-
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hyperbola7 months, 4 weeks ago
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But Kahane's ideology has become the state ideology of zionist isreal (and pretty much always was - how else to explain the ethnic cleansing of over seven million christians and moslems). Your devotion to racist totalitarianism is the only thing that keeps you from advocating american-style democracy in palestine: one state for all independent of race or religion.
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Israels Racist in Chief
... Israel has changed. And the racist virus spread by Kahane, whose thugs were charged with the murders and beatings of dozens of unarmed Palestinians and whose members held rallies in Jerusalem where they chanted "Death to Arabs!" has returned to Israel in the figure of Israel's powerful new foreign minister, Avigdor Lieberman. Lieberman openly calls for an araberrein Israel-an Israel free of Arabs....
...Lieberman, a former nightclub bouncer who was a member of the Kach Party, has the personal and political habits of the Islamic goons he opposes. He was found guilty in 2001 of beating a 12-year-old boy and fined by an Israeli court. He is being investigated for multimillion-dollar fraud and money laundering and is rumored to have close ties with the Russian mafia. He lives, in defiance of international law, in the Jewish settlement of Nokdim on occupied Palestinian land. ...
...The Israeli leadership, following the assassination of Rabin by a Jewish extremist with ties to Kach, never again sought a viable settlement with the Palestinians. Successive Israeli prime ministers talked the language of peace and negotiations largely to placate the international community and Washington while they vigorously expanded Jewish settlements on Palestinian land, seized huge tracts of the West Bank, including most of the aquifers, and imposed a brutal collective punishment on the 1.5 million Palestinians in Gaza. Palestinians have become, by Israeli design, impoverished, reduced to a level of bare subsistence and dependent on the United Nations for food assistance. They live ringed by Israeli troops in a series of pod-like ghettos in the West Bank and in Gaza, which is a massive, fetid open-air prison. And when these little Bantustans become restive, Israel swiftly turns off the delivery of basic food and supplies or uses F-16 fighter jets or heavy artillery to bomb the squalid concrete hovels.
The public embrace by a senior Israeli official of a policy of ethnic cleansing, however, is ominous. It signals a further evolution of the Israeli state from one that at least paid lip service to equality to one that increasingly resembles the former apartheid regime in South Africa. Racism, once practiced in private and condemned in public, has become to many Israelis acceptable.
http://www.propeller.com/story/2009/04/13/israels-...-
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aceofspades17 months, 4 weeks ago
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Hyp- what is the matter with you? My post was completely anti-Kahane but in your anti-zionist zeal you seem to miss that & make the following comment-
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" Your devotion to racist totalitarianism is the only thing that keeps you from advocating american-style democracy in palestine: one state for all independent of race or religion."
No where did I say anything to suggest that other than to say that Israel must be allowed to survive as a countryt- the same as any other- whether it is multicultural or not , it's survival is critcal.
BTW your rants are endlessly anti-Zionist , but only walk the edge on anti-Semitism while people like anti-brainwasher are virilent anti-Semites & you will be grouped with all Jews in his view - if you don't believe me read his post in answer to mine-
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Natureboy7 months, 3 weeks ago
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How does this statement -
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"No where did I say anything to suggest that other than to say that Israel must be allowed to survive as a countryt- the same as any other- whether it is multicultural or not , it's survival is critcal."
Jibe with this -
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
2.2 That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.
2.3 Prudence, indeed, will dictate that governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shown, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.
2.4 But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future security." -
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dissent7 months, 3 weeks ago
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fta
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"The Kahanists are a fringe movement, but their self-defeating list may nonetheless be a metaphor for the coming crisis in more mainstream nationalist efforts to police Jewish identity. The Zionist establishment has had remarkable success over the past half-century in convincing others that Israel and its supporters speak for, and represent, "the Jews." The value to their cause of making Israel indistinguishable from Jews at large is that it becomes a lot easier to shield Israel from reproach. It suggests, in the most emphatic terms, that serious criticism of Israel amounts to criticism of Jews. More than a millennium of violent Christian persecution of Jews, culminating in the Holocaust, has made many in the West rightly sensitive towards any claims of anti-Semitism, a sensitivity many Zionists like to exploit to gain a carte blanche exemption from criticism for a state they claim to be the very personification of Jewishness."-
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dissent7 months, 3 weeks ago
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actually, i was telling it to you, ace, as you dismissed this article because of karon's use of kahanists as a template for understanding israel's definition of all things universally jewish.
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while you are correct in your observation i don't believe you are in your dismissal. i think karon has hit the nail on the head and the excerpt above that i've selected from the article explains why. however as an explanation it does not offer, to expand on how karon puts it, "cart blanche exemption from criticism" of, or racism from, which ever side-
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aceofspades17 months, 3 weeks ago
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dissent - you & I will never see through the same loking glass ypu are near sighted & I am far sighted.
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that said - read antibrainwasher's comment & try to tell me that it has not crossed over the line from anti-Zionism to anti-Semitism - I'm really interested in your opinion on it & do not mean this to be setting you up for anything -
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dissent7 months, 3 weeks ago
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okay, i can see you think you're on to something here.
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i won't respond to antibrainwasher, firstly, because both you and dionys have covered his racism sufficiently. and secondly, because i could just as equally ask you to respond to any one of the many of thinker22's comments of fanatical extremism and denials.
if you think you have an opportunity to accuse me of collusion i could also say the same of you. the point is antibrainwasher has his own thoughts and i have mine. just because we are both critical of israel it does not mean that we are in agreement as to precisely what it is we criticize and how we criticize it-
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aceofspades17 months, 3 weeks ago
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may be a repeat-
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D - we have nothing more to discuss on this matter - I will not ,nor do I want to change your ideas,they are too ingrained. However you have the misconception that I am an ardent Zionist - I am not, I just believe in Israel's right to be an independent country existing in peace& if it takes multiculturalism to accomplish that so be it.
I am not accusing you of will collusion with ABW. but rather you are allowing his hate to thrive by your silence because he might agree with some of your philosophies. His type of vile hate thrives when no one speaks against it. & deny the lessons of history all you want, that hate will eventually turn against you too as you sit idly by. There is a difference between criticism & hate speech & until you can discern the difference we nothing more to say-
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dissent7 months, 3 weeks ago
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i haven't accused you of being a zionist, but rather, it is you who has accused me of being an anti-semite.
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and this has been only because i criticize israel for what i believe israel should rightfully be criticized for. you then, in your "far-sighted open-mindedness," (yes, I am being sarcastic), have chosen to churlishly and pettily remove me from your propeller list of friends because of it!
oh, if you could only see how much that has wounded me! lol!! but you're not the only one that has done just that. i fully expected it
it is this kind of puerile craziness that has made me all the more interested in maintaining attention to this very topic regarding all things israel. it clearly needs to be aired and publicly discussed and debated because there is just too much irrational vitriol, including yours, that tries to shut it down.
so my thoughts were with you and them with my first two comments at the top of this page.... as well as the usual mad dogs and belligerent bloodhounds who scream anti-semite the moment hestitation, reservation or doubt is expressed about israel
as for israel and what you say you believe israel is entitled to i don't disagree except to say that they are goals that all human beings, including palestinians, should be entitled to and israel's actions serve only to take it further and further away from such goals.
finally, as for antibrainwasher, his one and only comment on this thread is a tired old dogfight not worth responding to. and because i haven't responded to it you say i don't know the difference between criticism and hate speech and then melodramatically proclaim in a pms-like huff that we have nothing more to say!
well, ace, that's your call. as for me, i have no problem with you..... even if you think my ideas are too ingrained. i'll be sure to take the example of your "far-sighted open-mindedness" as the measure of that yardstick. lol!-
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aceofspades17 months, 3 weeks ago
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don't get all blown up - there was no pms -like huff I simply stated that we had nothing more to discuss - because we don't. We keep repeating the same things, neither of use is going to nor do I believe really care to change the other's opinions.
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Talking to each other in the state of anonymity that propeller provides is just the cup of tea for most because they are incapable of discourse when they know whom they are addressing. That is not my style. I* like to know more about the person I am speaking to, not to use that knowledge as a weapon but rather to find some common ground You were very dismissive of me when we exchange messages & I spoke of some of the things I had done. I took it as disrepect of me as another person THAT is why I took you off the list - anything other than Israel to discuss? I am open
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aceofspades17 months, 4 weeks ago
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Hie first large meetings were held in the public school auditorium, complete with guards. As soon as he spoke any free thinking person knew him for what he was. I called him out in that public forum for exactly what he was & was roughed up & expelled for my efforts.
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How many of you have put yourselves on the line beyond posting stuff here?
Kahane is not the voice of the American nor by far most of the Israeli Jews. Israel has been beset from all sides for 60 years & Israel will survive , no matter what you say -- it has to.-
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Dionys7 months, 4 weeks ago
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I think I might know you.
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"Israel has been beset from all sides for 60 years & Israel will survive , no matter what you say -- it has to."
Let's hope it does, but let's also hope that in the process of surviving it does not defile all that makes Judaism, Judaism.
" Kahane is not the voice of the American nor by far most of the Israeli Jews."
Absolutely true. He does not in any way represent the mainstream of Judaism or Israeli (or American) Jews.
But to be fair, the president of Iran doesn't represent Muslims, or even most Iranians, for that matter, and he's often quoted by the Israel-first-no-matter-what crowd.-
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Thinker227 months, 4 weeks ago
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> ..the president of Iran doesn't represent Muslims, or even most Iranians, for that matter...
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Well, Kahane and his party were outlawed in Israel. On the other hand, the President of Iran was democratically elected by... most Iranians, was not he? Besides, if he "does not" represent Muslims, or even most Iranians... WHO does?-
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Dionys7 months, 3 weeks ago
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" . On the other hand, the President of Iran was democratically elected by... most Iranians, was not he? Besides, if he "does not" represent Muslims, or even most Iranians... WHO does?"
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Muslims represent themselves. With more than 95% not being extremists. Iranians represent themselves, too. Interviews with Iranians show that the President doesn't represent the majority of them, and anyone who's actually done any looking into understands the Presidency in Iran is largely a figurehead who is asked to be the voice of insanity in negotiations.
But then that'd take some reading. And I know how you hate to read.-
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aceofspades17 months, 3 weeks ago
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So Dionys you're saying that in part he's something like what Bush was , not a true reflection of the Iranian people in his case nor of the Americans in Bush's case. If that is so, I agree.
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BTW - please read the pvt message I sent you - thx. -
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Thinker227 months, 3 weeks ago
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>> ...if he "does not" represent Muslims, or even most Iranians... WHO does?"
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> Muslims represent themselves.
I see. The vast majority of Iranians democratically elected their Predisent and then YOU decided for them the this President does not represent his electorate and that these people "represent themselves" INDIVIDUALLY.
> ...the Presidency in Iran is largely a figurehead who is asked to be the voice of insanity in negotiations.
If you say so... but you did not answer my question: If the Iranian President does not represent the Iranian Muslims...WHO DOES? Can it be the supreme leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei?
>But then that'd take some reading. And I know how you hate to read.
You "know"??? Well, read this:
"Iran's supreme leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei called on Friday for the destruction of Israel, describing it as a "cancerous tumor" in the Middle East."
http://archives.cnn.com/2000/WORLD/meast/12/15/mid...
Are you going to say that the Islamic Supreme Leader of Iran is also "a figurehead who is asked to be the voice of insanity in negotiations", Dionys, or you'll do some reading this time prior to making such bizarre claims?
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Natureboy7 months, 3 weeks ago
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"Israel will survive , no matter what you say -- it has to."
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Must it persist in its present form? And by that I mean a political entity that is Ashkenazim uber alles & the Mizrahim and the Christians and the Muslims who have ALSO lived in that place getting the short end, over and over?
Because if you mean that Israel as a racist state has to survive, I do not agree with you. Governments and states and even national borders are abstractions, constructs which should serve the governed. When they fail to do so, and those who are governed reject them, then they must change or they cease to exist. And that's as it should be.
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antibrainwasher7 months, 4 weeks ago
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Ah yes, apartheid Israel must survive, to preserve the purity of Gods chosen strand of DNA. Israel must survive as a pure tribal jewish state, where citizenship is based on DNA, and loyality to the racial purity of the master race.
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I got news, there is no god, and there is no master race, and jewishness is nothing more than tribal heridity. Its DNA. If Israel survives, it will be because of hundreds of billions of dollars raised by AIPAC and RJC, right wing racists of the highest order.
If your worried about jews surviving, I would encourage jews to never marry another jew. Such inbreeding can't be good. Join the rest of the human race, and quit calling yourself a jew, think of your self as a human instead.
Jews and Arabs and Mormons. Religious brainwashing leading to tribal inbreeding leading to religious brainwashing. What's not to love. -
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Dionys7 months, 3 weeks ago
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Is Mutainia going on and on about some poorly translated version of the Qu'ran which he then twists to fit his own hateful, violent, insane view of the world? Or is he back on that atheists tattooing Muslims and Christians with the number of the beast rant again?
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ur-land-is-my-land7 months, 3 weeks ago
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Zionists be it athiests or religious!! can not perpetrate all these crimes against Palestinian people by themselves, their footsoldiers are Jewish extresmits and fanatics who go by the teachings of Torah and Talmud. It is Torah that has a VERY CLEAR instruction for ethnic cleansing Palestinians, the instruction for ethnic cleansing Palestinians is so clear that there is no two way of looking at it. Jewish fanatics use these verses from Torah and other teachings of Talmud to justify land theft, ethnic cleanisng and genocide. While the rest of the world considers their act horrible crimes , for them it is just their way of being GOOD JEWS and doing what God ordered them to do. The roots of evil lay in pages of Torah and more so in Talmud. Those Jews and non Jews, dissenting or not, need to address the roots of evil and its sources Torah and Talmud. You need to grab the bull by the horn. Dissenting Jews need to have an honest dialogue about their religious and holy books and teaching otherwise those murderers among them are better Jews than they are if you go by Torah and Talmud.
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