Comments for What Would Jesus Do? 54% of American Christians Support Torture »
Posted By metavirus 7 months, 3 weeks ago in ReligionA new poll out today demonstrates that American Christians are gung-ho over torture. More than half of people who attend services at least once a week -- 54 percent -- said the use of torture against suspected terrorists is "often" or "sometimes" justified. Just like Jesus said: "Torture them, my brothers, for only through pain inflicted on the weakest among us shall thou reach the kingdom of heaven."
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PapaWolf7 months, 3 weeks ago
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OK. This is sick. I'm sorry - or glad - if I missed it, but NO WHERE in the bibles I've read (King James, Septuagint, etc) have I seen Jesus say torture was a good thing.
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My sister had a political cartoon from the Reagan era showing an old man wearing a Moral Majority button telling Jesus "If you're weak on defense, YOU can be replaced, too!"
Apparently, they're succeeded in replacing him.-
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metavirus7 months, 3 weeks ago
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Yeah, hard to square support for torture with the "Jesus is love" meme. Or this:
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Exodus 22:21 Do not mistreat an alien or oppress him, for you were aliens in Egypt.
Deuteronomy 27:19 Cursed is the man who withholds justice from the alien, the fatherless or the widow.
Psalm 9:9 The Lord also will be a stronghold for the oppressed, A stronghold in times of trouble.
Psalm 74:21 Let not the oppressed return dishonored; Let the afflicted and needy praise Your name.
Psalm 146:9 The Lord protects the strangers; He supports the fatherless and the widow, But He thwarts the way of the wicked.
Isaiah 29:20 For the ruthless will come to an end and the scorner will be finished, Indeed all who are intent on doing evil will be cut off.-
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cushi7 months, 3 weeks ago
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I made a comment about this on another thread involving this subject, which I have posted below. This is exactly what I was getting at. There so many scriptures in the Bible telling us how we are to deal with our enemies as well as strangers in our midst. Imho, it is impossible for a true believer to embrace the concept, much less the actual practice of torture.
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UnusualSuspect7 months, 3 weeks ago
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I was raised Protestant, and was even considering joining the clergy in my teens, but I have to say this is one reason I'm not a big follower of organized religion anymore, and have become agnostic. People just don't follow the teachings.
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A good number of Christians I know are hypocrites. And I'm sure every religion has it's own hypocrites. They pray daily, or weekly, going to their house of worship, asking for help, asking for forgiveness, and yet commit the same sins again and again.
I make mistakes, and commit my sins, but I don't fake it by going to church under the guise of being a good Christian; I'm probably not. But I do try to follow the basics in trying to be a good person, and for me, favoring torture doesn't come close to being a good person, let alone a good Christian.
They say Christ died for our sins...and I think He's died a billion times over by now. The Second Coming? Ha! Why Christ would want to come back again, to be embarrassed by what's transpired the last 2000 years is beyond me.
He'd be locked up as a heretic, scorned, and ridiculed as soft.
He was great for his time, but His voice would not be heard today.-
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cushi7 months, 3 weeks ago
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EXACTLY!! For some reason, that is so hard for many people to accept! We are saved by GRACE and not by any works of our own, so that no man should boast. That IS the good news of the gospel of Christ, because we could NEVER be perfect enough to deserve the salvation He freely gives to those who will accept it! Unfortunately, being the opportunistic beasts that we often are, many so-called Christians take advantage of that good news to pervert it into excusing anything and everything they do that is wrong. They will thumb their noses at their hypocrisy and say they are forgiven, therefore, it doesn't matter. They are in for a very rude awakening!!
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dailyblueberry7 months, 3 weeks ago
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Everytime I get drunk, everytime I lust after another woman, everytime I am dishonest on my taxes, everytime I abort a child, everytime I...call someone a "dumbass", or withhold grace toward my neighbor, or use the scriptures to fit "my" objectives and not "His", or spank my son in anger, or am motivated by greed, or am too prideful, or am jealous of my neighbor's success, or kill someone who is not like me, or lie to prove a point, or eat until I'm miserable....I too nail Jesus to the Cross.
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alakazam7 months, 3 weeks ago
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It's his talk ...can he walk it?
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Up to him/her.
I agree that just rambling on in offensive terms is not only rude but by definition offensive.
Where does all this rudeness come from ?
Give as good as you get but there is no excuse for Bad Manners.-
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alakazam7 months, 2 weeks ago
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No one said anything really offensive...my comment was just in response to pokydoke.
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I was making a point about comporting yourself badly and with malicious intent.
It may not be torture but it's still wrong.
My comment was general garment ...cut for no one in particular.
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scott42617 months, 3 weeks ago
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I have asked fellow Christians whom Jesus would torture and I have so far not gotten a response. Not only does torture run counter to all we have been taught as followers of Christ, but also to the fundamental principal of the writ of habeas corpus - going back to the Magna Carta in 1215. These are the principles upon which American and all western democracies are founded upon.
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How any truly spiritual person - Christian or otherwise - could support torture is beyond me. After all, doesn't it make us no better than the terrorists who attacked us on 9/11?
"Those who sacrifice essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- Benjamin Franklin
"Love your enemies."
- Jesus-
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rimbaud7 months, 3 weeks ago
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metavirus7 months, 3 weeks ago
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Codi69347 months, 3 weeks ago
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Dionys7 months, 3 weeks ago
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"Don't get me started on Catholics!"
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You mean the religious group that followed and preserved Christ's word throughout hundreds (if not thousands) of years, far before Luther got all ****y and threw a fit?
You wouldn't be a Christian if it wasn't for Catholics.-
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PapaWolf7 months, 3 weeks ago
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>>You wouldn't be a Christian if it wasn't for Catholics.
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Actually, Donys, you wouldn't be a Christian if it weren't for us Arabs & Jews who were the original Christians.
The Eastern Orthodox Church was the original church, which spread to Rome later. Then Rom split from the Orthodox Church about 1k years ago.
Just a little history lesson.
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metavirus7 months, 3 weeks ago
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Codi69347 months, 3 weeks ago
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metavirus7 months, 3 weeks ago
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PapaWolf7 months, 3 weeks ago
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>>How did you get that from my comments?
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Simple, codi. Those who blow up abortion clinics or target doctors who claim their beliefs made them blow up clinics.
Answer me this... What, exactly, is the difference between:
- cutting an innocent man's head off
- strapping on a bomb & killing innocent people in the middle of Israel
- strapping on a fighter jet or gunship & killing innocent people in Lebanon & Palestine
- blowing up innocent people in a federal office building in the mid west
- strapping on guns & killing innocent highschool classmates
- flying planes into buildings killing innocent people
- torturing, & sometimes killing, innocent people SUSPECTED & detained - most of the ones who survived later released
- ordering the invasion & the dropping bombs on innocent people based on known lies & innuendo
What's worse? -
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PapaWolf7 months, 3 weeks ago
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Another question, codi
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>>Never said that!! Christains are taught tolerance. What tolerance have you seen Islam demonstrate lately??
Even if this WERE true (the Islam part) which is worse:
- a kid who hasn't been taught right from wrong & murders someone, or
- a kid who has been taught that murder is morally & legally wrong but murders someone anyway?
Which, do you think, is worse.
Here's a hint - those who know more are held to a higher standard. Like in school, a 1st grader learning simple math wouldn't be expected to do multiple partial differential equations or Fourier Transforms. But you better believe a PhD mathematician BETTER be able to tell you what the square root of 100 is.-
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Codi69347 months, 3 weeks ago
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Army of God is just as dangerous as AQ. I will agree. And yes everyone has there radicals, christians , jews, black ,white etc.
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- cutting an innocent man's head off-No one holds the bad for there actions, but we pour water over someones head and WE are the bad guys
- strapping on a bomb & killing innocent people in the middle of Israel- Palestinains best chance is Israel, no one else wants them, SA, Jordan. Egypt
- strapping on a fighter jet or gunship & killing innocent people in Lebanon & Palestine- They use there own people as shields, hamas,hezboallah(sp?) don't care they now what type of press it will get
- blowing up innocent people in a federal office building in the mid west-I agree we do have our own at times
- strapping on guns & killing innocent highschool classmates nothing to do with religions beliefs, they just wanted to get even with people, bad example
- flying planes into buildings killing innocent people- these are the ones we need to be afraid of and be willing to fight to the last breath, but we have last our will
- torturing, & sometimes killing, innocent people SUSPECTED & detained - most of the ones who survived later released- I can think of one person detained by mistake, after 2 weeks he was released with over a million dollars and nothing as been said about it.
- ordering the invasion & the dropping bombs on innocent people based on known lies & innuendo That war was justififed, i have talked about it for over 2 years. saddam could have stopped it at anytime.
Read the book the "West Last Chance" And watch/read these below. How many time has this country went and helped an Islamic nation/people from starvation or genocide? Kuwait,Somilia,Bosnia,Kosovo,Afghanistan,Iraq,Indo... to name a few. And what crdeit did we get for it, 2 barracks blown up ,2 embassies destroyed,1 ship almost sunk and 4 planes turned into cruise missiles. With a friends like that, who needs enemies!!
http://michellemalkin.com/2008/03/02/scholars-dema...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQE8bf1T5H8-
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PapaWolf7 months, 3 weeks ago
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codi,
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your own words show you're a bigot & hypocrite.
1) pouring water: WE TORTURED!!!! END OF DISCUSSION!!!! & you condoning torture makes you complicit.
2) Israel is NOT the Palestinians' only hope - especially w/the indiscriminate killing of innocents, destroying homes & buildings,confiscation of lands & expansion of illegal settlements. Israel CAN be a partner if it would stop breaking EVERY agreement it entered w/the Palestinians
3) Human Shields: How DARE you accuse anyone of using their own children as a shield. That's just your, Israel & the West's way of dehumanizing Lebanese, Palestinians, Arabs & Muslims
4) Only 1 Innocent: Why, exactly, did W release HUNDREDS of "terrorists" without charging them?
5) Justified War: After all this time, you still believe / spread that BS? You have GOT to be kidding. Changing reasons for invasion almost on a daily basis; Iraq was NOT a threat, NO WMD's, NO connection btwn OBL & Hussein, etc., etc., etc.
& Finally:
6) Lost Our Will: OK. Remember this. REFUSING TO TORTURE IS NOT LOSING OUR WILL! Torture does NOT work - the guy who recently said it does recanted his statement when he found out the guy was tortured 83 times. Also, it's been stated BY THE W ADMIN that torture ASSISTS RECRUITMENT OF FUTURE TERRORISTS!!!! Plain & Simple.-
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Codi69347 months, 3 weeks ago
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Justified war enought said!!
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http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19092206/page/4/
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/01/24/60minute
How many times has Israel dealt for peace, gave up land for peace,stopped attacking for peace only to be rewarded by the PLO walking away from the table, a rocket atteck or another suicide bombing?
We are losing our will to fight and win this war. Not calling our enemies terrorist is a good first start of lossing our will. If our enhanced interview methods did not work. Why won't Obama de-classify all or them?
You know terrorist are using there own people as shields. You can't be that naive.
Bigot,hypocrite not by a long shot. Just an American that has spent his entire adult life defending this counrty. Only to see its citizens elect a socialist. That thinks his own country is the problem. We are the good guys here. They started this war, we didn't.
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BigBadJohn6667 months, 3 weeks ago
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If the Bible is true, Jesus/God wil be the most cruel, inhumane torturer that will ever exist in all creation on judgement day. That is because he loves you so much. He will say, I love you, now go take a swim in the lake of fire. yeah
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coolrayfruge7 months, 3 weeks ago
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I don't agree in using torture as a way of gettin information
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because people can be forced into confessing into something they didn't do.
They would be willing to confess to any thing just to stop the torture.
I would think under cover infiltration of these groups would be more affective.-
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rimbaud7 months, 3 weeks ago
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Only if you've already done the police work can you be in a position to evaluate whether what your are getting from a torture is "intelligence" or "babble". Otherwise it's just a desparate fishing expedition and explains why you would torture someone hundreds of times.
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cushi7 months, 3 weeks ago
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You need a Damascus road experience! Saul firmly, sincerely believed he was doing God's will by persecuting and killing the Jews....until God knocked him on his butt and blinded him long enough to get his attention and correct his thinking.
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slate7 months, 3 weeks ago
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rimbaud7 months, 3 weeks ago
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rimbaud7 months, 3 weeks ago
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Oh yeah, know it all? What if information gleaned froma torture really did save thousands of innocent lives? You think you might need to give Dick Cheney a hearing before you condemn him? Stay on the "right track" and "judge not..."
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Dionys7 months, 3 weeks ago
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"Oh yeah, know it all? What if information gleaned froma torture really did save thousands of innocent lives? You think you might need to give Dick Cheney a hearing before you condemn him? Stay on the "right track" and "judge not...""
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Show us in the Gospels where Jesus would be okay with torturing people.-
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rimbaud7 months, 3 weeks ago
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Judge not, that ye be not judged.
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2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. Mk. 4.24
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
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cushi7 months, 3 weeks ago
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Those "folks" have been given a CHOICE and plenty of opportunity and instruction in order to make the right one. If they wind up in the lake of fire, it will be by their own doing. God does not wish that fate on anyone, nor does He go around picking people at random to punish. Obviously, there must come a time when the good and bad are sorted out and sent where they belong, otherwise, paradise will never exist.
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slate7 months, 3 weeks ago
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Since there is no Hell fire (the original Hebrew and Geek words for hell is a hole in the GROUND, OR GRAVE. Couple that with the book you are trying to learn from says that death is the wage of sin not death then burn forever, you are sadly being misled Cushi.
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slate7 months, 3 weeks ago
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The truth is supposed to set them free, we go to the same Hell Jesus did. He didn't feel anything when he was dead, not even a small amount of heat, because Hell is the grave. It's too bad most Christians use a 400 year old book that's been translated incorrectly by those that have no problem saying only their way of interpretation can save all the masses from a non existent fire.
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The True Meaning of Hell62
rate or flag this pageBy BlogLady
The Grave
Hell - A word study
The CORRECT meaning of the words translated in the scriptures as "hell."
Heaven is mentioned in the Bible 551 times, compared to hell which is only 54 times. Yet we are a generation of Christians who enjoy one-upping those heathens, threatening them with eternal suffering instead of helping them find the joy of our Lord.
The eternal fires of hell simply mean that the fire cannot be stopped or put out. You cannot change the course of events once you have been thrown into the grave.
The fires of Gehenna, which was the town dump for Jerusalem, are certainly not still burning, nor did the garbage dumped there continue to burn. It was burned up, only ashes left. The fire continued to burn, not the object or body thrown into the fire. Eventually, all the garbage was left in ashes. The fire is not still burning, so obviously we have misinterpreted the word which was translated into "eternal."
Hell simply means the grave, Sheol means the underworld, and Gehenna refers to the trash dump.
The word "eternal" simply means that no one can put out the fire or change the judgment of death. The pronouncement of death is eternal, it can not be changed.
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slate7 months, 3 weeks ago
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You only feel that way Charles because the right talks about values and falls short of the mark so you claim they are hypocrites, yet you'd givve those on the left doing the same 'humans' on the left a pass because they don't talk about 'family' values so they somehow are exemt from the outrage. Talking about 'values' yet falling short of those values doesn't make those 'values' less truthful do they?
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CHAM7 months, 3 weeks ago
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Scott, you ask your acquaintances a very profound question. Slate answered to say that God does torture. The sincere Christian would reply to Slate that the "burning in Hell" is a punishment, not a torture. And I would agree. The difference is that up to the moment of the ending of life, according to the Christian tenet, the burning Hell can be avoided simply by asking for forgiveness for one's sins.
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The fact that 54% of self proclaimed Christians accept torture as AOK says something about how well the Christians believe in what they profess.
But in a way we shouldn't be surprised. The Church itself is very guilty of some of the most heinous torture to ever occur. Read history about the Inquisitions and you will find this to be a fact. In fact water boarding was one of the favorite tortures of the Church during this period of time.
And I really agree with alakazam about nailing Jesus back to the cross.
In the end, only the evil torture, and those that torture are evil. The United States pressed for and received execution of Japanese and Germans who tortured by water boarding. Now our Government wants to say it is OK and not torture.
War for profit is practiced by our Government as a means of extorting from the people an income flow that benefits the rich and powerful. I look upon this as evil also. -
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cushi7 months, 3 weeks ago
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We were created in His image, to worship and praise Him. He is sovereign, which His will must and will override ours. It is our rebellious sin nature that causes to want to have it our way, and buck our own Creator! He wants nothing but the best for His children, but like our own offspring, many of us do not appreciate or want any part of what He offers us. If we reject God, Who is Good; then what is left for us but evil? That is what we who do not accept Him will be left with, and if we chose evil, we will deserve it.
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Punishment or torture...both words that can be viewed however we choose, but the truth is what it is, and it is unalterable. The stakes have been made known to us, so we really have no excuse and no reason to beef.
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crespi7 months, 3 weeks ago
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But what an exquisite torture to not have to pal around with fanatical Fundamentalist Christian hate freaks that have taken over the majority of the churches the same way the ultra-conservative extremists have taken over the Republican Party...
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AndyJ2157 months, 3 weeks ago
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TODAY'S GOP IS THE PARTY THAT CLAIMS TO HAVE CHRISTIAN "FAMILY VALUES," but promoted the TORTURE OF PRISONERS, in violation of international law, according to THE INTERNATIONAL RED CROSS.
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Conservatives hate to have to admit it, but Obama has already signed an order for the closing Guantanimo and has ended the efforts to move prisoners (known as “rendition”) to places where torture is less likely to be prosecuted.
And many in the GOP are still tring to evade the issue or TORTURE, or downplay, explain and justify it. Some even continue to deny that it ever occurred. Many keep calling it "enhanced interrogation," which is one of the most horrible euphemisms ever created.
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Jeboba7 months, 3 weeks ago
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finally Rimbaud, something I can agree with you on. The GOP is populated by the nastiest lieingest bunch of hypocritical greedy, corrupt, misinformed sheep following a$$holes that ever walked. They co-opted the old Republican party when Reagan was elected and got in bed with the moral majority. That started the slide for the GOP until there are no moderates, only ultra right wing crazy mofo's!
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There are now only 21% of the American people who profess to be Republicans! You think they can pull something out of their butts in 2012? Who, Sarah? Gimme a break!
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metavirus7 months, 3 weeks ago
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calitennflo7 months, 3 weeks ago
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Christ is doing this...waiting for man to learn...his words before he left were, you owe me. This means we owe ourselves...to be men in the first place, and from and back we go in judgement every step...Judged for not making a place for Mothers children or men.
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cushi7 months, 3 weeks ago
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I am a Christian, I attend church regularly and I am a true believer in God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. I do not condone torture for ANYONE and I am vigorously petitioning my congressmen, and the President, to see that EVERYONE involved in torturing on behalf of the United States be arrested, tried and brought to justice. I don't believe people who truly believe in God support torture, when that is the opposite of what His word teaches us.
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PapaWolf7 months, 3 weeks ago
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>>If you learned today that "God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit" was not real, would any of your views change?
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Does that really change right & wrong? I mean, the Bible teaches love your enemy, turn the other cheek, don't kill, steal or other obnoxious type things...
It's Organized Religion (of ALL faiths) that teach "kill or convert people from other religions" & Nationalism & Patriotism that teach "kill that other group from that other country"
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chuck-the-canuck7 months, 3 weeks ago
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"I don't believe people who truly believe in God support torture, when that is the opposite of what His word teaches us."
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Are you trying to deny the Inquisition and witch trials? Christianity has always appealed to blood thirsty maniacs. -
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antibrainwasher7 months, 3 weeks ago
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First off, there is no god, only thousands of gods invented by kings and con men to hypmotize the ignorant morons, controlling them, sending them off the the afterlife to enrich the kings and con men.
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There is no god, no son of god, no afterlife. Its all a heaping pile of liquid crap.
No suprise, the superstitious inbred tribalists who are ranting and raving and barking like poodles for the GOP and Jesus, believe in torture, and breaking every law, as long as it makes them money.
The baby jew god you worship, you idiot hypocrites, was a liberal jew, obsessed with the poor and downtrodden. Yet, you mega-church going sister humping cowboy repugs thing the teenage jew was a rich conservative warmongering racist.
How stupid can you get, and still be alive. Its like these sub-human repug evangelicals are a different species, haven't yet evolved from primordial slime.
Be sure to visit the Creationist Museam in Cincinnati, you homeschooled psychopaths, see exibits of velociraptors pets sitting around the campfire with Texans.-
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dailyblueberry7 months, 3 weeks ago
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ABW, so you have no hope about anything, huh? I'll pray for you. :0)
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Jesus was concerned with the poor and downtrodden, yes!!! But I think it makes Him sad that we now have made our conduit to helping those folks, the government. It should be the people trying to be like Him. This is another reason, I think government should be smaller and that "we the people" should step up and take the lead in helping our neighbors. And yes, put a halt to torture.
He had no political persuasion. He was a man of example, not legislative bias.-
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Jeboba7 months, 3 weeks ago
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Well DUH daily! Since YOU and your so-called Christians aren't going to help the poor and downtrodden does that mean they should be ignored and allowed to suffer? Who else is going to help them but the government. At least the government has some semblance of a soul left. You have sold yours to an unkind, unforgiving, maliscious religion filled with carpetbaggers and thieves and hypocrites.
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PapaWolf7 months, 3 weeks ago
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But, daily, the government is OUR government - of, by & for the people. & Jesus taught us to do unto others & lover your neighbor (remember the good samaritan?)...
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We, as a family, community, city, state & country, not to mention world, are 1 family &/or neighborhood. & since I can not personally assist many of those in need, & since the government is partially mine, I - & many others like me - want OUR government to assist those in need since we cannot do it ourselves. We'd personally like more assistance to the needy & more funding for education, welfare-to-work programs including training, healthcare, etc., instead of more nukes that we REALLY don't need.
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Jeboba7 months, 3 weeks ago
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Anti! BRAVO! BRAVO! BRAVO!
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I was raised in the bible thumping church until I got old enough to do some of my own research and soul searching. It didn't take long to see right through the SHAM Christians. Brainless sheep being led by money grubbing pastors filling their heads with hatred and intolerance.
I ran as fast as I could and got away from it!
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BigBadJohn6667 months, 3 weeks ago
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If the Bible is true, Jesus/God wil be the most cruel, inhumane torturer that will ever exist in all creation on judgement day. That is because he loves you so much. He will say, I love you, now go take a swim in the lake of fire. yeah
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lloydm657 months, 3 weeks ago
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Most of the people on propeller are using their blackness as an excuse for their ignorance.I understand,I've met many of you.Your slave mentality is astounding,the democrats own you lock,stock,and barrel.Obama say's jump boy,how high massa.
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CHAM7 months, 3 weeks ago
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The poll counted only those who said they were Christians. Those that claimed to be such said at the rate of 54% that they approved of torture.
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It reminded me of years ago one day when my wife and I were visiting people we knew who were Assembly of God members. All was going fine until the lady of the house spoke up and said that God favored America because President Carter and the Christians of the United States supported Israel as the chosen people of God.
I asked the lady "Have you ever read Second John?" Yes she had. And then I asked, when you read it did you notice that the scripture said that the Anti-Christ you talk so much about going to come some day, is actually already on earth during the time of John? What, she asked, are you talking about?" Doesn't Second John say that John informed the people that the Anti-Christ is one who does not accept Jesus Christ as the son of God? Of course it doesn't she informed me.
I told her that was interesting because I could have sworn that I read that and it is in there as I stated, and since the Jew does not accept Jesus Christ as the Son of God, Wouldn't that by John's definition brand the Jew as the Anti-Christ?
She told me that before the second coming that the Jews would come to realize and accept Jesus as the Messiah.
If that's the case, I asked her, wouldn't they then become known as Christians?
We were never invited to visit again.
I do believe there is a God and that Jesus is his Son. And since I believe that, I am going to believe the Scripture. That puts me in the position of believing that the number of 144,000 as the quantity of Hebrew inhabitants of heaven there under the Law ( as quoted in Revelations ), means that at some time the Mosaic law was supplanted by a new order. Now that's change we can believe in. -
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