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Posted by: frctm5 8 months ago
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frctm58 months ago
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I am being facetious of course, but just trying to make a point about the perils of ascribing to God the credit for natural phenomenon. How do we decide whether these things are a blessing or a curse? Is it their intrinsic qualities or the purpose that they are applied to? If some supernatural being is guiding all this, there doesn't seem to be much rhyme or reason to their method or designs and no unanimity of opinion among its believers.
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brettodactyl8 months ago
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"...and no unanimity of opinion among its believers."
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I think that's one of the greatest tragedies in modern Christianity that was really exacerbated by the Reformation. While we do consider ourselves to be one Church, it is a challenge to overcome some of the conflicting information that is being put forth at this time. That being said, there is actually more unanimity amongst us than it may seem on the surface. Once you get into the core, essential beliefs, that's when you really see what makes a Christian. We're united in our faith that Christ is the Savior of mankind.-
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frctm58 months ago
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Perhaps, but what about Jews, Hindus, Muslims, Buddhist, Zorro Astrians, Native Americans, and the countless other faiths, cults, and superstitions? Let me ask you a direct question? Is everyone, other than Christians, going to hell? This would be the majority on earth. No single faith is in the majority. I've had varying answers to this question from people calling themselves Christians. Some are adamant that you must accept Christ as your savior if you wish to go to heaven. Others tell me that God judges his flock according to the circumstances of their lives and could permit members of other faiths into his heaven if they lived honorable lives. Still others say that there is only one God and everyone worships this God in their own way and all this will be sorted out when they die. Now if I make it into heaven, am I "good" or still under probation? Was Lucifer the only angel cast out of heaven, or are there others?
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brettodactyl8 months ago
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I believe that the fact that so many people have faith in a god is something that points towards the truth of His existence; but, I understand exactly what you're saying, and that is a very large issue.
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Now, I appreciate directness, and I will answer your question to the best of my knowledge and ability. "Some are adamant that you must accept Christ as your savior if you wish to go to heaven." Yes, a person needs to accept Christ as savior; this may not necessarily be through a specific prayer, but if a person knows Christ, it shows through their actions, through the very fabric of who they are. To truly know Christ, a person must be repentant. I believe repentance is a lifelong process. Sometimes we stumble, but we confess our sins, repent, and receive forgiveness. Frankly, I don't fully understand what will happen to someone who has never heard the Gospel; I only know that Jesus taught us to spread the Gospel. I once asked a priest a question somewhat related to what we're talking about now, and I loved what he had to say. He said that we can never judge with certainty how God, in His mercy, will deal with each individual person. That being said, I believe that if someone knowingly rejects Jesus Christ, he will absolutely go to hell, and, to my knowledge Jesus never indicated that the majority of people would go to Heaven. He said the gate to Heaven is a narrow one; it's not an easy path.
Finally, I'm not sure what point you're driving at with the question on Lucifer, but I think that's an easy answer. There were certainly other angels who fell from grace, as it states in Revelation 12:
Then war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon. The dragon and his angels also fought, but he could not prevail, and there was no place for them in heaven any longer.
(Revelation 12:7-8 HCSB)-
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frctm58 months ago
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Thanks, that is a comprehensive answer. While I don't share your beliefs, I respect your passion and your ability to express yourself.
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The question regarding Lucifer is one of clarification as to the nature of the eternal reward. It has been a general observation of mine that in most eschatological beliefs, the operative principle is static perfection. That is, once your in, things are cool as a cucumber, mission accomplished, no more worries. If heaven is paradise, both in terms of its environment, and the state of mind of its members, how would such a place give rise to petty emotions or actions that would cause one to sin or fail? Clearly, Lucifer was not satisfied with the state of affairs there. If I accept this account, it means by definition, even heaven isn't perfect. Evil can still transpire within its boundaries and summary judgments passed. In other words, we will continue to be judged for an eternity and the possibility of sin will continue to stalk us all or days.-
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brettodactyl8 months ago
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Ok, I'm glad you did clarify your point, because that is not an uncommon thought. I've delved into this topic, as it relates to the angels anyway, myself. I mean, there's reason to believe that Satan actually can still communicate with God; just look in the book of Job to see what I'm talking about. So, if that's the case, it's easy to see why someone would wonder about the perfection of Heaven, and how it works.
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Honestly, this is the sort of thing that I don't expect to fully understand until I actually reach Heaven. It is confusing. But, I believe that our souls are purified to a point where our wills align perfectly with God's, which would mean that there is no chance of one of us falling from Heaven. Our natures will be changed. Angels, on the other hand, are another issue entirely. Do they ever go to the other side, so to speak, or is it all in the past? I'd assume they still have the same free will they had at the time of Lucifer's fall, but it's really all speculation, isn't it?
Thanks for asking legitimate questions, rather than trying to just stir things up as some people like to do. I love to talk about my faith in this way, because it sometimes gives me reason to give special consideration to topics that aren't normally running through my mind.-
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frctm58 months ago
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I was under the impression that everyone who entered into heaven was destined to become an angel at some point. Of course I admit I am not that familiar with the bible. One hears expressions like "earning your wings" and sees movies like "Its a Wonderful Life" where Clarence gets his pair for helping George Bailey realize how fortunate he was.
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I'm an atheist or agnostic depending on which day of the week you catch me. I won't go so far to say that I know for certain that God doesn't exist, but let's just say I am waiting for better evidence. By waiting, I don't mean that I am actively searching for this evidence. I don't desire to believe that God exist. I am content to live in a Godless universe. However, if I am wrong, I trust that a divine being of great wisdom and compassion could find room to forgive me for a bit of skepticism since I would regard this as a fairly minor offense compared with many others. My guess is that God would not have a small ego or suffer very much from insecurity. That this supreme being would not depend upon my love or worship for affirmation of his greatness and feelings of self worth. I would regard an eternity of suffering for non-belief to be a pretty harsh sentence to pronounce on anyone. I could not give moral sanction to such a severe penalty. Among the human systems of justice which I would assume are far inferior to Gods, we take into account extenuating circumstances, capacity for judgment and many other factors that might cause someone to slip. If God doesn't take into account the many small accidents of fate and circumstance that might cause some among his flock to go astray, this would seem to me a rather simplistic view of justice. It seems like they should have a few more options for the gray area cases.-
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brettodactyl8 months ago
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Funny you mention that you thought people became angels in Heaven. I once thought the same thing, but apparently angels are an entirely different species so to speak. It's amazing how many ideas stick with us based on pop culture and things that are just passed down from generation to generation, like those expressions. Thanks again for the talk. You've expressed your side of the issue very well. I can't expect you to listen to me if I don't extend the same courtesy to you. It's hard to follow my own advice sometimes, but it is something to strive for. People would be a lot less angry if we all could communicate in such a way.
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