Comments for Does Quran 4:24 Remove African American Gripe? »
Posted By Mutainia 7 months ago in ReligionDoes Qur'an 4:24 remove African American gripe toward the United States for the time the US had slavery? The caps are mine to show what I'm pointing to in the three main English versions of the Qur'an.
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YUSUFALI: Also (prohibited are) women already married, EXCEPT THOSE WHOM YOUR RIGHT HANDS POSSESS: Thus hath Allah ordained (Prohibitions) against you: Except for these, all others are l More..awful, provided ye seek (them in marriage) with gifts from your property,- desiring chastity, not lust, seeing that ye derive benefit from them, give them their dowers (at least) as prescribed; but if, after a dower is prescribed, agree Mutually (to vary it), there is no blame on you, and Allah is All-knowing, All-wise.
PICKTHAL: And all married women (are forbidden unto you) SAVE THOSE (CAPTIVES) WHOM YOUR RIGHT HANDS POSSESS. It is a decree of Allah for you. Lawful unto you are all beyond those mentioned, so that ye seek them with your wealth in honest wedlock, not debauchery. And those of whom ye seek content (by marrying them), give unto them their portions as a duty. And there is no sin for you in what ye do by mutual agreement after the duty (hath been done). Lo! Allah is ever Knower, Wise.
SHAKIR: And all married women EXCEPT THOSE WHOM YOUR RIGHT HANDS POSSESS (this is) Allah's ordinance to you, and lawful for you are (all women) besides those, provided that you seek (them) with your property, taking (them) in marriage not committing fornication. Then as to those whom you profit by, give them their dowries as appointed; and there is no blame on you about what you mutually agree after what is appointed; surely Allah is Knowing, Wise.
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cowboygrandpa7 months ago
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Mutainia7 months ago
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Oh, hello, cowboygrandpa. Believe it or not, I've discovered some great news about the Quran. The three passages that are posted that make it sound like slavery and sex with your married slave girl are fine, is being changed to something where you don't get such an awful idea!
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Mutainia7 months ago
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Oh, I found it. It's in Deuteronomy. There never WAS any mentioning of the word "rape". Looks like you just added to the Word of God, is all. Not only added, but, since you changed the meaning, looks like you also removed something out of the Word of God as well. Gee, I wonder what happens when you remove something from the Word of God? I wonder.
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Dionys7 months ago
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"Adultery is adultery.
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Slavery is wrong."
True enough.
And yet you'll find plenty in the Bible that allows for slavery, too:
NT:
" Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)"
" Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)"
OT:
"However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)"
" If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.' If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever. (Exodus 21:2-6 NLT)"
(Sex Slavery):" When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)"
All Holy texts have pieces that most people understand do not apply in today's world. This is the case with Christianity and Islam alike.-
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Mutainia7 months ago
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Hey, O "I'm not a Muslim, yet, desperately defend Islam". Did you post the above to attack the Bible, or, support the Quran when the Quran says it's a "confirmation and a reminder of that which went before it" (i.e. the Bible)? Exodus is the second book of the Torah, and, according to the Quran, the Torah is not only LIKE the Quran, BUT, like the Quran, it is "both guidance and light". So, was the above posted above to attack the Bible, or, show that the Quran is right about it being a "confirmation and a reminder of that which went before it it" (in otherwords, the Bible)?
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alamintalib7 months ago
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Again, you miss the point. He was saying neither. Your question has nothing to do with this article or his post. He does not support either point. He merely, as an outsider to both our beliefs, is calling you out for pointing at one or two specific verses and not looking at them as a whole or reading them out of context.
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Just as you will not open your eyes to the Old and New Testament verses presented, you will neither opens your eyes and head to the fact that you are making yourself look hypocritical by trying to bash Muslims and the Quran while your own book of faith posses similar if not exact statements.
This makes you look foolish and you keep digging deeper holes for yourself which further shows your state of ignorance.
You are allowed to explain yourself concerning these verses and as many do (especially with the OT), distance yourself from it but as soon as a Muslim makes a single step to explain or defend himself, you move the microphone, change the subject or just act plain mean.
Mean is looking quit dumb right now on you. You would look better explaining these verses from the NT and OT instead of listening to phantom tapes of exorcism.-
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Mutainia7 months ago
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Ala: Just as you will not open your eyes to the Old and New Testament verses presented, you will neither opens your eyes and head to the fact that you are making yourself look hypocritical by trying to bash Muslims and the Quran while your own book of faith posses similar if not exact statements.
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Mut: The difference though, is that the passages Muhammadans post to make it look like the Quran is right about it being a confirmation and a reminder of that which went before it (Torah and Gospel), are believed by MANY Christians (including myself), to be for a different time period. That's why we don't stone slothful kids and do all these things atheists LOVE to point out from the Bible. The QURAN, on the other hand, gives a strong impression that once Shariah Law comes about, ALL these things, (like slavery and sex with married women who are "what your right hand possess"), will be put into place again. Being so the case, it seems to remove the gripe of your ancestors in the BIGGEST way. How can it not?
Ala: This makes you look foolish and you keep digging deeper holes for yourself which further shows your state of ignorance.
Mut: Provide your evidence where I was being ignorant, please, or, is this al taqqiya on your part?
Ala: You are allowed to explain yourself concerning these verses and as many do (especially with the OT),
Mut: And I have. I said that I feel that they are for a different time period.
Ala: distance yourself from it but as soon as a Muslim makes a single step to explain or defend himself, you move the microphone, change the subject or just act plain mean.
Mut: Really? Sounds like you are projecting. That happens ALL the time from Dionys.
Ala: Mean is looking quit dumb right now on you.
Mut: ?
Ala: You would look better explaining these verses from the NT and OT instead of listening to phantom tapes of exorcism.
Mut: And, when I explain them, NO Muslim seems to want to believe they are for a certain period of time and dispensation, leading me to believe they want to believe they are proof that when the Quran says it's a "confirmation and reminder of that which went before it" (the Bible), it's not lying.-
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alamintalib7 months ago
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On your last statement, isn't that the pot calling the kettle black or the sink calling the toilet white?
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You fail to see and realize your hypocrisy. You are a broken record.
Also, if you want me to answer any of your statements again, please stop with the cut and past. They are not coherent. Maybe you mean well, but people don't want to read twice the info, especially if the just read it.
Take the time, explain the verses and give me the same chance to critique and reject EVERY answer you make.
You are a hypocrite and its sad that you don't alter you approach so that you arguments are more palatable,coherent and consistent.
People like cowbowgranpa make this world an easier place but you on the other hand are very pessimistic, dull and damaging.
I will pray for you.-
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Mutainia7 months ago
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Ala: Also, if you want me to answer any of your statements again, please stop with the cut and past.
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Mut: I doubt you would, so, I shall continue with this, letting those who are interested read it.
Ala: They are not coherent.
Mut: Really?
Aa: Maybe you mean well, but people don't want to read twice the info, especially if the just read it.
Mut: Those who like me will read it, those who don't will only read what you wrote and skip mine, as usual.
Ala: Take the time, explain the verses and give me the same chance to critique and reject EVERY answer you make.
Mut: When have you ever done that? Evidence, please.
Ala: You are a hypocrite and its sad that you don't alter you approach so that you arguments are more palatable,coherent and consistent.
Mut: Evidence, please.
ala: People like cowbowgranpa make this world an easier place but you on the other hand are very pessimistic, dull and damaging.
Mut: Saying so doesn't make it so. Evidence, please.
Ala: I will pray for you.
Mut: Thank you.
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Dionys7 months ago
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Oh. Is he saying his usual stuff about how Christians don't believe all that old OT stuff?
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"“For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:18-19 RSV) Clearly the Old Testament is to be abided by until the end of human existence itself. None other then Jesus said so."
"All of the vicious Old Testament laws will be binding forever. "It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid." (Luke 16:17 NAB)"
"Jesus strongly approves of the law and the prophets. He hasn’t the slightest objection to the cruelties of the Old Testament. "Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place." (Matthew 5:17 NAB)"
""All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness..." (2 Timothy 3:16 NAB)"
Or is the OT no longer 'scripture'?
""Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God." (2 Peter 20-21 NAB)"
"“Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law" (John7:19) and “For the law was given by Moses,..." (John 1:17)."
Pathetic. Someone who can't even follow his own religion's LAW seeks to make judgements on a low-context literal interpretation of someone else's religion in translation without any cultural or historical understanding.-
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Mutainia7 months ago
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Hey O "I'm not a Muslim, yet, desperately defend Islam". Did I say Christians don't believe the OT? No, I said that the majority of them, like myself, believe they were to be followed for a different time period, a different dispensation. That's why we don't stone like Muhammadans.
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smithichie7 months ago
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You are correct D, it is also worth pointing out the majority if not all of the Jim Crow laws were inacted using the The Curse Of Ham as not only a just cause, but a divine creed.
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And while most of the mentions about slavery occur in the OT, as you also point out, they can also be found in the NT. You quote one of my favorites, where slaves are to serve their masters as they would christ or god.
Gee, doesn't that go directly against a couple of commandments? Or maybe it's a strong indication of the authorship of most of these tales?-
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Mutainia7 months ago
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You won't get any arguement out of me that the Bible seems to allow for slavery. However, the Quran takes it further by allowing a slave master to have sex with married women who are his slaves. And, guess what? The Quran is believed in AND followed by nearly two billion people who DON'T think the Quran is like those passages in the Bible that were for a certain time period. They believe the Quran is relevant for TODAY. Meaning? Slavery and having sex with married women who are your slaves is STILL permitted!
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smithichie7 months ago
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I don't see where the Koran takes it any steps futher. The Bible clearly states that slaves are not only property and subject to the whims of their master, they are also to treat their masters like they would as they were god themselves. Who's going to argue if 'god' wants some nookie? It certainly wasn't the place of the slave to say no, according to the Bible.
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AND, I guess I missed the part where it says slaves or any treatment of them is not STILL permitted, according to the Bible. It's not the Bible that doesn't allow for slaves or their treatment today, it's our society.-
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Mutainia7 months ago
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Again, I KNOW the Bible allows for slavery. The Quran, on the other hand, allows the Muhammadan slave master to have sex (rape) of married women "whom their right hand posesses" (Quran 4:24). And, on TOP of it, the Quran doesn't have dispensations where a part of it is to be followed or not followed (Christians can now eat shell fish and pork if they want). It sounds like Quran 9:1-5 and 29 are supposed to go into effect when Muhammadans are strong in number to the point where they can turn on pagans (and Christians), that they have a peace treaty with.
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memestryker7 months ago
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If you believe in a supernatural deity, then you may believe "God" actively "chose". But that's just part of one ancient culture's folklore, as far as I've been able to discern from my own research. And Jesus never stopped being a Jew. If anything, he taught the Jewish people how to be better Jews.
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"Christians" today seem to mostly be Paulists. And I don't think a sentient being "chose" how the line of David would play out. I think that there is energy and various natural forces and that the interaction of those forces resulted in what plays out in human history.
It makes as much sense to believe a supernatural "God" guided a rapist-warlord to define the line of Jesus for the Roman Catholics and guide the hands that wrote their scripture, as for that same "God" also to guide a child-molester/warlord to write the Koran.-
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Mutainia7 months ago
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"It makes as much sense to say "God" guided a rapist-warlord to become the line of Jesus, then what's to say that "God" didn't also guide a child-molester/warlord to write the Koran?"
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Mut: Ultimately, I believe God is behind the Quran. God said, "For there must be also heresies among you (I Cor. 11:19), " so, it seems to me, that God created Satan to put together the Quran FOR such a reality-
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memestryker6 months, 4 weeks ago
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Your quote is way off, M. I'd cut and paste, myself.
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But the Quran, like the Christian Bible, is just a book, written by humans who "claim" to be divinely guided. Both books document cultural traditions and their folklore. If it works for you to "believe" in these writings as fact, then that's your choice.
I think "God" and "Satan" both are metaphors, and not actual sentient beings.
I'm concerned about anyone who literally believes any ancient cultural doctrine. I think they have been convinced through fear, intimidation, or simple hypnotic suggestion that these writings are factual. And people are gullible. All of us. We adopt practices that seem to simplify our lives or give us answers to the mysterious and don't question them.
I think a Christian theocracy would be just as destructive as an Islamic one. In fact, we only have to look back at the Middle Ages to see evidence of this. Some people have blind faith, and others prey on that blind faith to manipulate them into forwarding an agenda.-
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Mutainia6 months, 2 weeks ago
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Meme: Your quote is way off, M. I'd cut and paste, myself.
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Mut: Okdoke.
Meme: But the Quran, like the Christian Bible, is just a book, written by humans who "claim" to be divinely guided.
Mut: Some beg to differ.
Meme: Both books document cultural traditions and their folklore. If it works for you to "believe" in these writings as fact, then that's your choice.
Mut: True. But, what if one tells me to kill you to make my god happy?
Meme: I think "God" and "Satan" both are metaphors, and not actual sentient beings.
Mut: Ok.
Meme: I'm concerned about anyone who literally believes any ancient cultural doctrine.
Mut: Ok.
Meme: I think they have been convinced through fear, intimidation, or simple hypnotic suggestion that these writings are factual.
Mut: Right, I agree.
Meme: And people are gullible. All of us. We adopt practices that seem to simplify our lives or give us answers to the mysterious and don't question them.
Mut: That's for sure.
Meme: I think a Christian theocracy would be just as destructive as an Islamic one.
Mut: How so? What scriptures can you find, other than those that look down on a gay life-style, will make Christianity make you pay twice in tax as a Christian, or, else?
Meme: In fact, we only have to look back at the Middle Ages to see evidence of this. Some people have blind faith, and others prey on that blind faith to manipulate them into forwarding an agenda.
Mut: Right.-
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memestryker6 months, 2 weeks ago
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"Meme: Both books document cultural traditions and their folklore. If it works for you to "believe" in these writings as fact, then that's your choice.
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Mut: True. But, what if one tells me to kill you to make my god happy?"
Meme: That's why I'm a strong supporter of the second amendment and the right to keep and bear arms--including concealed, so I have a reasonable chance of protecting myself from you (and vice versa).
"Meme: I think a Christian theocracy would be just as destructive as an Islamic one.
Mut: How so? What scriptures can you find, other than those that look down on a gay life-style, will make Christianity make you pay twice in tax as a Christian, or, else?"
Yes, you're right. And both the Bible and Koran have people "hear God" tell them to kill those not of the faith. Read Leviticus and Numbers. Jesus supposedly came along with a "new covenant" instead of the one with the petulant, overly emotional, mean-spirited "God" of the O.T. Both have "godly" men advocating everything from murder, to torture, to rape. We know that wasn't pleasant for those murdered, tortured, or raped, and Jesus would agree with us and say they all were wrong.
"Meme: In fact, we only have to look back at the Middle Ages to see evidence of this. Some people have blind faith, and others prey on that blind faith to manipulate them into forwarding an agenda.
Mut: Right."
The above also answers the previous question to some extent. It's all in the interpretation. I've known ministers who told their followers they could only read the King James Version--where King James' translators asked for mercy in presenting their interpretation.
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smithichie7 months ago
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And, on TOP of it, the Quran doesn't have dispensations where a part of it is to be followed or not followed (Christians can now eat shell fish and pork if they want).
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What dispensations? Throw out the Old Testament if you wish, but there are still passages in the New Testament telling slaves to serve their master like they would god himself. How is a slave supposed to say no to a master/god who wants sex?
I guess I just don't see how in your pointing out the stink found in other folk's religions, that you don't sense the smells coming from your own. You talk about how Muslims spin and twist themselves to avoid facing ugly passages, yet don't seem to notice your own twists and turns when you are faced with the same.-
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smithichie7 months ago
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I agree. There is little to no difference between religions, "whatever". In fact I consider Christianity and Islam to be sects of Judism, with no more difference is to be found between Catholics and Baptists or Mormon or Sunnis and Shiites.
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smithichie7 months ago
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Sunni, Methodist, SnakeHandler, Hasidic Jew, Mormon, David Koreshian, Unitarian, Catholic, Shiite, etc, all can find far more common elements and outright exact same characters and commandements then can be found in Hinduism or Ancient Greece.
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memestryker7 months ago
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Yes, religion can ruin everything. As people have evolved from purely animal action to somewhat more reasoned behavior as their use of language has matured, we see some coming to understand that all human beings crave freedom and liberty, and cultural bindings have been loosened (at least temporarily) in some nations.
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Anyone who reads any ancient text should be aware that it includes a lot of folklore and rules and regulations based on what the powerful dictated. And anyone seeking to dominate others seems to fall back on "the supernatural deity said so."
There is also wisdom to be found in the ancient sacred writings, but I don't believe in anything supernatural, and folktales passed down from any culture just don't do it for me.
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icono1Comment removed: Spam
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Pecossam7 months ago
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Mutainia,
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What does this verse you cited in the Qur'an (4:24) have to do with the Africans brought to America as slaves, and their descendants comments about American slavery? I do not understand your point. Perhaps you could clarify? Thank you.-
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Mutainia7 months ago
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Quran 4:23 tells the Muslim the type of women he can't have sex with. It goes into Quran 4:24, telling him that even married women are forbidden to him "except those whom your right hand possess"...which means that he CAN have sex with married women who are his slaves. Such a statement, to ME, of course, means that not ONLY is slavery in Islam permitted, but, so is having sex (I've heard it actually means rape) with slave women who are married. This, to me, removes ANY gripe African Americans have toward the US for the time it had slavery.
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Pecossam7 months ago
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Mutainia,
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It would be refreshing if Jessie Jackson, Al Sharpton and other African-American "Leaders" (though the folks I know don't claim them as such, thank goodness), would expend their energy towards ending this SCOURGE of mankind that is still practiced in parts of Africa, and I believe, parts of the Middle East and parts of the former U.S.S.R. (BLACK and WHITE slavery, ESPECIALLY the SEX-TRADE). I guess there's just not enough $MONEY$ in it for them as a lawsuit (threatened or actually filed), yields.
And, BTW, where does President Obama stand on this IMPORTANT issue?
Let's end ALL SLAVERY, EVERYWHERE, NOW, regardless of the PETROLEUM/POLITICAL "importance" of the offenders.
DO IT NOW!!!-
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Mutainia7 months ago
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Pecossam7 months ago
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Mutainia7 months ago
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It's spelled different ways. What it basically is is Islamic "holy" lying for Allah to help protect, defend or spread Islam. Muhammad said, 'war is deceit", and anything NOT under Islamic territorial control (dar al islam...also known as the house of peace), is considered "dar al harb" (the abode/house of war). THIS is why I am called a liar by Muslims for exposing true Islam, the Islam Muhammadans don't want infidels to see until Muhammadans are strong in number. But, until they day comes, it's all "to you, your religion, to me, mine", and "no compulsion in religion".
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icono17 months ago
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Peco a simple definition for taqiyya can be found at the following link;
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taqiyya-
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Dionys7 months ago
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"but had never heard the terms "taqqiya" or "taqiyya" before. Thanks again."
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That's because it's some new anti-Arab mythology to make them seem like liars (as if practically EVERYONE -- especially Mutainia -- doesn't lie).
The truth is, however, that it allows Muslims to lie in one and only one situation -- if there's a sword/knife/gun at their head and the person is saying "if you say you're a Muslim I'm going to kill you".-
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Mutainia7 months ago
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Actually, if you read Quran 16:106, it says you can deny Allah "if under compulsion". It doesn't say "if you life is threatened", just "if under compulsion". But, may Muhammadans believe it to mean the way YOU say it means, O "I'm not a Muslim, yet, desperately defend Islam", so they don't dress up like Rabbis or pregnant women before stepping up on busses in Tel Aviv or OTHER plances. Oh, by the way, IF you are right, and, you can deny faith in Allah if your life IS threatened, well, WHAT, pray tell, happened to martyrdom and dying in the cause of Allah? How come Allah is suddenly rewarding cowardess? By the way, read Quran 16:106, which comes right AFTER Quran 16:106. Ok?
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alamintalib7 months ago
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That verse was revealed because Muslims were being persecuted and tortured and one of them rejected his Islam under duress. His heart was troubled and this verse was revealed because he didn't disbelieve in his heart. He was FORCED to denounce Islam.
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That is why the debates about water boarding and other torture methods is up now. People will tell you anything to make you stop.
Lying is not permitted in Islam. Breaking treaties is not permitted in Islam. Killing women, children and old, destroying crop fields and cutting trees is PROHIBITED. These are clear. ANYONE who commits them commits them at the peril of his own soul. These are absolutes. These are not feel good tactics. There is no end justify the means in Islam. If Muslims are fighting and the other side wants peace, we are commanded to make peace.
So go ahead and place your taqiyya card, its not true. I will never believe in it and Allah certainly will not reward it.
"On that day, he who has done an atoms weight of good shall see it....and he who has done an atoms weight of bad shall see it"-
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Mutainia7 months ago
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Ala: That verse was revealed because Muslims were being persecuted and tortured and one of them rejected his Islam under duress.
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Mut: Where does it say that in the Quran?
Ala: His heart was troubled and this verse was revealed because he didn't disbelieve in his heart. He was FORCED to denounce Islam.
Mut: Where does it say that in the Quran?
Ala: That is why the debates about water boarding and other torture methods is up now.
Mut: Do you think someone would be water boarded if they came clean and WEREN'T using Quranic scriptures to lie about what they know? Be truthful now.
Ala: People will tell you anything to make you stop.
Mut: And, apparently, it's perfectly fine for Muhammadans to be like people, and lie, true? DON'T come forward with the truth, but, "tell them anything", true? But, IF they tell the truth and NOT put Quran 16:106 into gear, again, why should they be tortured?
Ala: Lying is not permitted in Islam.
Mut: Really? What do you think of 3:28 or Muhammad saying, "war is deceit"? A bit of a contradiction, no?
Ala: Breaking treaties is not permitted in Islam.
Mut: "Freedom from treaty obligation with pagans" Quran 9:1?
Ala: Killing women, children and old, destroying crop fields and cutting trees is PROHIBITED.
Mut: Right, because the old are going to die, the women can be used to make more soldiers for Allah, and, well, the children can be indoctrinated with Muslim Mickey Mouses. Plus, WHY destroy those things Islam can be used, true?
Ala: These are clear. ANYONE who commits them commits them at the peril of his own soul.
Mut: Really? True, or, al taqqiya?
Ala: These are absolutes. These are not feel good tactics.
Mut: Especially if you have a conscience, I imagine.
Ala: There is no end justify the means in Islam.
Mut: Al taqqiya?
Ala: If Muslims are fighting and the other side wants peace,
Mut: Code for "become Muhammadan", no doubt.
Ala: we are commanded to make peace.
Mut: Right, why kill new conversts.
Ala: So go ahead and place your taqiyya card, its not true.
Mut: Oh?
Ala: I will never believe in it and Allah certainly will not reward it.
Mut: 'War is deceit"? Quran 3:28 and 16:106?
Ala: "On that day, he who has done an atoms weight of good shall see it....and he who has done an atoms weight of bad shall see it"
Mut: Ah...ok?
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Mutainia7 months ago
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I checked that site out. Looks like Muhammadans are playing a game of good cop bad cop with taqqiya, making Shi'ites the bad cop (the ones who perform taqqiya), when, in actuality, they BOTH do it. Also, they only mentioned Quran 3:28 and ignored 16:106. They also didn't mention Muhammad's "war is deceit" line. Oh well.
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Mutainia7 months ago
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You are welcome. The thing that's creepy about Islam, is that because it falls under the title of "religion" and "holy", it naturally gets peoples' guard down making the world think it then has to follow the Bible's "thou shalt not lie" commandment. But, thanks to Quran 3:28 and 16:106, "thou shalt not lie" goes out the window.
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Dionys7 months ago
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Dude. It's hilarious. It's an actual video of Mutainia.
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Why does he look like a reject from Magnum PI?
The funniest thing from the video? HE LIVES IN HIS MOM'S BASEMENT! There is clearly a basement window behind him and you can see the kind of radio he can afford right under that picture of his version of Hawaiian Paradise (which he'll likely never see from mommy's basement).
"I presented this to Muslims and they say.."
Sure. I'm sure you presented it to Muslims. If you did -- maybe you should have paid attention to what they said?
Here's another lie of yours (by omission). It's not "also prohibited are" BUT "Prohibited to you for marrage are" (Surah 4:23 carrying over into 24).
You also forgot the rest of Surah 4:24:
"Except for these (prohibitions), all others are lawful provided ye seek them in marriage.
It does NOT say you can have sex with married slave girls. It says you can be intimate with them as long as you are marrying them.
PLUS this isn't something that holds true today, just as those bad little passages in the Bible about slavery do not hold true today.
Dude. Move out of your mom's basement. Take your meds. Get a life of some sort.
P.s. Where the hell do you get a link to African American Slavery? What a dumb f-ing bunny you are.
"I don't see that when I read..."
No duh. You're reading it through some f-ed up lens of your own, personal issues. You move on from these claims of yours that are pathetic and then start talking about how it really means RAPE is okay. Obviously more of your sick fantasies coming up.-
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Mutainia7 months ago
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Di: Dude. It's hilarious. It's an actual video of Mutainia.
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Mut: How can it be? Isn't Mutainia supposed to be a girl? :)
Di: Why does he look like a reject from Magnum PI?
Mut: What's looking like Magnun PI have to do with the topic that Quran 4:24 removes African American gripe?
Di: The funniest thing from the video? HE LIVES IN HIS MOM'S BASEMENT! There is clearly a basement window behind him and you can see the kind of radio he can afford right under that picture of his version of Hawaiian Paradise (which he'll likely never see from mommy's basement).
Mut: What's this have to do with the removal of African American gripe, thanks to your Quran having Quran 4:24?
Di: "I presented this to Muslims and they say.." Sure. I'm sure you presented it to Muslims. If you did -- maybe you should have paid attention to what they said?
Mut: What did they say, O "I'm not a Muslim, yet, desperately defend Islam"?
Di: Here's another lie of yours (by omission). It's not "also prohibited are" BUT "Prohibited to you for marrage are" (Surah 4:23 carrying over into 24).
Mut: Right. Prohitted to you ARE...go on. :)
Di: You also forgot the rest of Surah 4:24:
"Except for these (prohibitions), all others are lawful provided ye seek them in marriage.
Mut: Notice, though, that sex with those "whom your right hand possess" IS allowed? That, again, totally removes ANY gripe of African Americans for the time the US had slavery...unless the Quran is written by Satan.
Di: It does NOT say you can have sex with married slave girls.
Mut: What does "except those whom your right hand possess" mean to you?
Di: It says you can be intimate with them as long as you are marrying them.
Mut: Doesn't "intimate" mean sex? But, again, WHERE does it say you can marry them when it also says they are married? You mean a slave girl can be married AND have YOU as a husband as well? If so, doesn't that mean a slave girl can commit adultery?
Di: PLUS this isn't something that holds true today,
Mut: Not until Shariah law is imposed, true?
Di: just as those bad little passages in the Bible about slavery do not hold true today.
Mut: But, what about when Shariah Law is imposed, THEN it's ok to not only have slavery, but, sex with married women "whom your right hand possess"? Say no, ok, O "I'm not a Muslim, yet, desperately defend Islam". SAY no, ok?
Di: Dude. Move out of your mom's basement. Take your meds. Get a life of some sort.
Mut: You mean, quit calling attention to YOUR lies?-
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Mutainia7 months ago
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Di: P.s. Where the hell do you get a link to African American Slavery?
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Mut: Well, IF slavery is not only allowed in Islam, but, also sex with slave women who are married, how can it NOT remove African American gripe for the time America had slavery, IF the Quran isn't written by Satan?
Di: What a dumb f-ing bunny you are.
Mut: In what way?
Di: "I don't see that when I read..."
Mut: What are you taking out of context here?
Di: No duh. You're reading it through some f-ed up lens of your own, personal issues.
Mut: You hope?
Di: You move on from these claims of yours that are pathetic and then start talking about how it really means RAPE is okay.
Mut: You mean the actual Arabic word? But, don't you disagree with the founder of Investigateislam, better known as "Christian Prince" on Muhammadtube? HE'S the one who let it known that it's sex (possibly rape), NOT marriage here AT all.
Di: Obviously more of your sick fantasies coming up.
Mut: You wish and hope, O I'm not a Muslim, yet, desperately defend Islam".
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Natureboy7 months ago
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"Here's another lie of yours (by omission). It's not "also prohibited are" BUT "Prohibited to you for marrage are" (Surah 4:23 carrying over into 24)."
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No doubt his boy-toy, Al Taqqiya, told him to say it.
Mu is Al's bitch. 100 percent.-
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Mutainia7 months ago
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Right, altaqqiyaboy, it IS carried over from Quran 4:23 of what is prohibited. But, anyone who isn't performing altaqqiya and is truthful, will also noticed that what ISN'T prohibited, is the married women "that your right hand possess" (your SLAVE girls, in otherwords). Or, are you just lacking in some brains and can't see this? I mean, seriously?
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Mutainia7 months ago
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Forgive me for attacking your intelligence like that, altaqqiyaboy. That was uncalled for. I bet you really aren't stupid AT all, you're just performing taqqiya, true? I mean, you CAN see that Qu'ran 4:24 allows slave masters to have sex with married women "whom their right hand possess", true?
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spirithappy7 months ago
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Racism is dead my friend..anyone thinking about this question is left behind. There is really one global world now..(if you worked in business you would know this)
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This question is 30 years to late..
no one is thinking abour race..look around..everyone is intermarrying or dating whoever they choose. You cannot Stop a European American woman as an example from dating a man of african,asian,or latino descent. Thats why the law stopped it...(amazingly we need a law to seperate people..we are such a smart creation..)Racism needed law because it is a stupid concept..now with racism outlawed..people can be natural as God intended-
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Natureboy7 months ago
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Wow, racism should be dead, but you think it IS dead? Put on your pointy hat and sit in the corner, you are the amazing megatard.
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Yeah, nobody is thinking about race. Not even the Klan, or the Aryan nation. They have both turned into bridge clubs.
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Dionys7 months ago
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http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=1fe_1241305376
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Dude. Get dressed you f-ing nut.
Your dad was a preacher? He went to test some guy to see if he was "demonic"?
No WONDER you're so f-ed up. Living in mommy's basement with a dad that goes and tests "village warlocks" to see if they're "demonically influenced?"
STOP LISTENING TO YOUR RICE CRISPIES!-
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alamintalib7 months ago
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Was it a "small town" or a "village"? First he says it was as small town but the guy is called the "village warlock". The village warlock who in disguises himself as the mild-mannered art teacher. Probably a lot like Clark Kent or Peter Parker.
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Mutainia7 months ago
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He looked kind of like the actor who played Merlin in the movie "Excalibur". By the way, what's the difference between a small town and a village? But, that's not the point, is it? That's a question to try to deflect away from the reality that Quran 4:24 removes the gripe of African American's, true?
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alamintalib7 months ago
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What you really need to do is stay away from the racist issue. You are sounding a lot like one. Be a slave or the descendant of one or live in the deep south as a black man. I tell you what, you want to prod Muslims?, forget that,go to Harlem or Compton or the Black side of your "village" and start this conversation about slavery and the African American GRIPE".
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And it means a lot of difference. Who in America uses the word village unless they are referring to some place in a third world country? Which makes the story sound like something from a missionary tale which you tried to update to the modern city.
To understand another point, why do I care what he looked like? That shows how off the point you can really get. You must understand this, people think you look like a fool and they don't believe you. And not that you may really care but in all of this, YOU are your own worst enemy. YOU are the one who put the banana peel on the floor. YOU are the one that pulls the rug from under your feet. All of it comes from the inconsistency of your statements and the hypocrisy in them.
How many Christians are here to defend you right now on these statements and arguments you are making? See my point?
Teach me about these bible verses and bring me to your side. You must have some goal in all your antagonizing?-
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Mutainia7 months ago
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Ala: What you really need to do is stay away from the racist issue.
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Mut: When so many African Americans are turning to Islam, and, I talk about Islam, it is a bit hard to not touch on racial issues sometime.
Ala: You are sounding a lot like one.
Mut: You hope?
Ala: Be a slave or the descendant of one or live in the deep south as a black man. I tell you what, you want to prod Muslims?, forget that,go to Harlem or Compton or the Black side of your "village" and start this conversation about slavery and the African American GRIPE".
Mut: Why? So when they see a white guy saying Islam permits something that takes away their gripe for the time America had slavery, they can do...what?
Ala: And it means a lot of difference. Who in America uses the word village unless they are referring to some place in a third world country?
Mut: Like Grenich Village? What's this have to do with Quran 4:24 removing African American gripe?
Ala: Which makes the story sound like something from a missionary tale which you tried to update to the modern city.
To understand another point, why do I care what he looked like?
Mut: Because someone said something that triggered a response from me to let you know what he looked like.
Ala: That shows how off the point you can really get.
Mut: Far better to talk about the difference between towns and villages?
Ala: You must understand this, people think you look like a fool and they don't believe you.
Mut: From my study of Islam, you have to say something like that.
Ala: And not that you may really care but in all of this, YOU are your own worst enemy.
Mut: How so?
Ala: YOU are the one who put the banana peel on the floor. YOU are the one that pulls the rug from under your feet. All of it comes from the inconsistency of your statements and the hypocrisy in them.
Mut: Again, for the countless time, evidence, please.
Ala: How many Christians are here to defend you right now on these statements and arguments you are making?
Mut: So far, not many.
Ala: See my point?
Mut: Well, I leave it up to God on whether or not I wake people up to the truth of Islam.
Ala: Teach me about these bible verses and bring me to your side. You must have some goal in all your antagonizing?
Mut: Why, yes I do. One of my main goals is to defend Israel against Islamic lies, expose Islam and, if possible, free people from a deadly, alienating belief system, Islam, that turns 45 British Islamic MEDICAL doctors into those who would try to destroy two Scottish airports and protests drawings of cartoons, yet, remains totally silent when Sunnis strap on bombs and kills Shi'ite innocents by the thousands in Iraq, BLAMING such carnage on George Bush.
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Mutainia7 months ago
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Oh, I've seen worse. By the way, you can call it or me insane, but, hey, I heard what I heard. IF I prove to be insane, so be it. Still, though, I will call it the way I see it and let those who are truthful decide, NOT those who are allowed to lie because Muhammad said, "war is deceit".
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Mutainia7 months ago
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My dad wasn't a preacher, he took a preacher friend with him. By the way, good diversion on your part to keep us from thinking on the reality that Quran 4:24 removes African American gripe toward the US for the time the US had slavery. Your desperation now runs deep, O "I'm not a Muslim, yet, desperately defend Islam.' :)
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icono17 months ago
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http://prophetofdoom.net/Islamic_Quotes_Demons.Isl...
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alamintalib7 months ago
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Oh, and by the way, he did ask me about the verse. Right in the middle of the comments about the article on Cat Stevens posted right now.
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First, it was completely out of place to ask there. Secondly, I know after chatting with him here and on Youtube that he does not actually want an answer. Sadly, his daily fuel is trying to antagonize and trying to sound intelligent by retorting with off base questions, answering questions with questions and never staying on point or subject. And then, coming back in a forum and reporting that "the "Muslims" could not answer my questions" or "I really stumped them". Ask a real question, be truthful in seeking an answer and accept the persons response, whether you believe it or not. Then, move on.-
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Dionys7 months ago
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"Betting is against the Bible and the Quran. "
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And Jews and Christians are forbidden from cutting the corners of their head (Hair). Or mixing certain fabrics. Or planting different seeds in the same plot (hello shade/sun grass seeds). Et Cetera.. -
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Dionys7 months ago
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"Oh, and by the way, he did ask me about the verse"
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Oh. I didn't know you count as "Muslims." Usualy when I want to learn about something I ask a number of people from the group I want to more about so as to sample a spectrum of understandings and beliefs.
"Sadly, his daily fuel is trying to antagonize and trying to sound intelligent by retorting with off base questions, answering questions with questions and never staying on point or subject"
Maybe if he asked the "Village Warlock," the demons that inhabited him (or was it his girlfriend) could give him a straight answer?-
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alamintalib7 months ago
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And to talk about using the word "village" in the US, what about the word "warlock"? I have only really heard that word thrown around by people who spend 12,15,18 hours a day in a basement playing fantasy games online, eating fishsticks, hot pockets and capri sun.
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icono17 months ago
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Some 'points of view' from Muslim scholars on the subject;
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http://www.answering-islam.org/Silas/slavery.htm
http://www.venusproject.com/ecs/women_islam/slave_...-
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icono17 months ago
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.......... Do Afro-Americans have nothing to complain about; doubt it from the sources cited. for America was a 'Christian' nation at the time of slavery and the old and New Testament in several places advocates slavery and the fair and equitable treatment of slaves(see http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_slav1.htm as an overview with references). If America had been a Muslim nation during the slave years then the Afro Americans would, by Muslim law, have no apparent valid complaint.
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Although it is interesting to note that one source implies that the slaves sold to European slavers for sale in the European countries and the American Colonies and other kaffir countries was provided almost exclusively by Muslim slave traders.
(Kaffir or Kafir, an Islamic term usually translated as unbeliever similar to the Christian word infidel or Hebrew word koffer (which is the Arabic word's cognate). In Arabic it means "ingrate" and refers to someone ungrateful towards Allah. )
Of interest from one of the above links is the following rules for slaves in Muslim countries;
THE RIGHTS OF SLAVES UNDER ISLAM; Which, interestingly enough ,are a lot like the old slave laws for colonial America and pre Civil War America.
According to the Hughes Dictionary of Islam, slaves had few civil or legal rights. For example:
a) Muslim men were allowed to have sex anytime with females slaves - Sura 4:3, 4:29, 33:49.
b) Slaves are as helpless before their masters as idols are before God - Sura 16:77
c) According to Islamic Tradition, people at the time of their capture were either to be killed, or enslaved. Shows you that they were at the bottom of the barrel to start with.
d) According to Islamic jurisprudence, slaves were merchandise. The sales of slaves was in accordance with the sale of animals.
e) Muhammad ordered that some slaves who were freed by their master be RE-ENSLAVED!
f) It is permissible under Islamic law to whip slaves.-
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alamintalib7 months ago
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Icono, I haven.t seen your responses before, so i surely give you the benefit of the doubt in your error concerning the Quran.
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As far as b) is concerned, "Abdullah" means "slave of Allah". The Arabic word used is "abkum" meaning, his slaves, meaning Allahs slave. The verses, starting at 75, is speaking about charity and the beginning both of the verse state that it is a parable about Allah. Verse 76 is speaking about deeds of righteousness. By the way, i do speak and read Arabic.
Allah is saying that one who spends of the wealth Allah gives him and does righteous deeds , the one on the straight path,is not equal to one who is miserly and does mischief.
If you look at the first chapter of Quran, you again see the word "Master" and reference to the straight path. Below are the 3 verses again, sorry for the length
75)Allah sets forth a parable: (consider) a slave, the property of another, (who) has no power over anything, and one whom We have granted from Ourselves a goodly sustenance so he spends from it secretly and openly; are the two alike? (All) praise is due to Allah! Nay, most of them do not know.
76)Allah sets forth (another) Parable of two men: one of them dumb, with no power of any sort; a wearisome burden is he to his master; whichever way be directs him, he brings no good: is such a man equal with one who commands Justice, and is on a Straight Way?
77)To Allah belongeth the Mystery of the heavens and the earth. And the Decision of the Hour (of Judgment) is as the twinkling of an eye, or even quicker: for Allah hath power over all things.
And Allah knows best -
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alamintalib7 months ago
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A little more continuation of the chapter
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78)To Allah belongeth the Mystery of the heavens and the earth. And the Decision of the Hour (of Judgment) is as the twingkling of an eye, or even quicker: for Allah hath power over all things.
79)Do they not look at the birds, held poised in the midst of (the air and) the sky? Nothing holds them up but (the power of) Allah. Verily in this are signs for those who believe.
Also, there is always reference concerning the freeing of slaves. A slave(or servent) is equal to his master. he must be cloth and fed with the same that the master has.
The free of captives in Islam is is a means of atonement, because, understand, slaves during that time were actually captives of war. Muslims did not go around raiding villages for the purpose of seeking slaves.
The prophet Muhammad even married his captives. Systems today are different, but you must look at the time period (this was the norm) as far as captives of war at the time. Read Exodus 21:26-7 and other passages concerning the treatment of captives. And also what were the Roman and Byzantine empires doing . All i am seeking is fairness.
I can go on, but Wikipedia does a fair job in describing the Islamic understanding of captives. I will not justify ANY injustice by Muslims concerning anything inhumane. I am simply giving you my understanding and belief-
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alamintalib7 months ago
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I'm not avoiding it. Many people on here have tried to point out the lack of connection to the African-American experience by white Christians like your type who helped to produce light skinned men like myself through RAPE ,with no intent or ability to marry, simply to increase their "livestock" and subsequent worth and humiliate the men whos beds these women were snatched from in the middle of the night while these Christians defiled themselves on them, not only with semen but urine and feces. I simply am not going to get involved with you simply on one verse with and off course topic discussion.
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Truly, who do you think Black people will be and are ****** off at?
I am confident with those, whom I don't even know and not coerced with, supporting my views and understanding here. Not so much about the validity of the Quran, but the invalidity of your arguments and intellect.
I am sorry to say but maybe you ARE on meds as that may explain your fly or gnat like qualities of simply just nagging people for no apparent reason except to see their annoyance and reactions.
I beg you to leave the subject,. This is an article of your creation and yet all you have is negative reaction.
You are humiliating yourself. You are acting like one of the person trying out for American Idol who can sing and in his heart believes he can even after all the negative comments. Dionys has already gone Simon Cowell on you. You are intellectually tone deaf.-
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Mutainia7 months ago
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Good al taqqiya on your part in trying to denegrate my character to avoid my question of what you, as an African American Muhammadan, think of Quran 4:24 not only allowing for slavery, but, allowing sex with slave girls who are married, and, in the process, removing African American gripe.
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icono17 months ago
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and (should be in the first post but prop said it was spam with the third link in the original post)
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http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/10382 -
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Dionys7 months ago
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"Some 'points of view' from Muslim scholars on the subject;
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http://www.answering-islam.org/Silas/slavery.htm
http://www.venusproject.com/ecs/women_islam/slave_...
These aren't Muslim scholars. They're anti-Muslim ideologues who set out to prove a point against Islam, rather than discover what Islam actually says. That's not scholarship by any stretch of the imagination. -
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Eagle_Eye7 months ago
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"Quran 4:24 removes African American gripe toward the US for the time the US had slavery.", now that is a really stupid comment....
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The Quran is just as flawed as the Christian Bible...LOL!!!! To try and use that as an argument about slavery is hysterical....sounds like an Evangelical Preacher interpreting what they want how they want.-
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memestryker7 months ago
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Yes, the Southern Baptists, Jehovah's Witnesses, Latter Day Saints, and Catholics (among others) all still sideline women in various ways and to varying extents, and some (the FLDS) do still enslave women and even sanctify child molestation. The Muslim countries are mostly worse at the moment, but they have to grow through their own dark ages.
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ekklesiawarriorComment removed: Hard Banned7 Replies
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dxxy4u7 months ago
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Read Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy of the Old Testament in your BIBLE, they all say the same thing as do the Quran. The Jews' Torah also says the same. Why do you think the WASP looks on the JEWS with Distain? Because of what they were allowed to do. WASP loved the SLAVERY parts, but HATED the sex part. This shows the hypocrisy of them at their beginning.
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By the way, what on earth has this to do with Afro-American's out cry against the years they were enslaved and RESTITUTION for such? New Yorkers wants RESTITUTION for 9/11 for crying out loud. And GETTING it.-
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Mutainia7 months ago
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"By the way, what on earth has this to do with Afro-American's out cry against the years they were enslaved and RESTITUTION for such? New Yorkers wants RESTITUTION for 9/11 for crying out loud. And GETTING it."
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Mut: Because Quran 4:24 not only allows for slavery but says it's ok for a slave master to have sex with married women who are his slave (i.e. "what your right hands possess"). THIS, it seems, totally makes null and void the gripe of African Americans for the time America had slavery IF the Quran IS, as the Muhammadans say it is, the true and pure word of the "most compassionate, most merciful". The question I have for you is, is IF the Quran is as good and godly as the Muhammadans CLAIM it is, HOW can the gripe of African Americans remain for the time America had slavery WHEN it's the VERY Quran that not only allows for slavery BUT allows sex with married women slaves? Please let us all know, ok?-
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alamintalib7 months ago
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You are truly mixed up. To make such a statement would also infer that ALL African-Americans follow the Quran. If the majority of them are Christians,which is a fact, then what type of reference in the Quran would be of any validity to them?
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Mutainia7 months ago
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Ala: You are truly mixed up. To make such a statement would also infer that ALL African-Americans follow the Quran.
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Mut: How so?
Ala: If the majority of them are Christians,which is a fact, then what type of reference in the Quran would be of any validity to them?
Mut: why, NONE of course. This video is to let all know that if...IF the Quran is as Muhammadnas say it is, true and something that MUST be followed, then Quran 4:24 makes null and void African American gripe for the time America had slavery, that's all. Of course, we all know that that gripe is warranted, so, what's that tell us about the Quran then that HAS Quran 4:24 within it?
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dxxy4u7 months ago
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I wish that all you Whites that are dishing Blacks for their stance against the years of Slavery, be replaced in Mississippi as a SLAVE male at the height of it's slave business. Let you feel the crush of slavery for a year. Then replace you back in your own time with the scars and memories of your experience. Then lets see what you will have to say about slavery.
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Mutainia7 months ago
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Look, you AREN'T going to get any arguement out of me that what African Americans went through was a horrible thing. But, don't you realize that the very Quran seems to be saying that WHAT you went through means nothing when it has Quran 4:24? Where married women are forbidden for sex exCEPT "those that your right hand possess" (i.e. SLAVE girls who are married)!?!? BeCAUSE of such a horrible thing that African Americans went through HOW can they become Muhammadan WHEN it's in the VERY Quran that MAKES all that NOTHING thanks TOO Quran 4:24?!!? Please provide your answers.
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vettenut7 months ago
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It's amusing to read the Biblical passages that Dio, Meme and others have posted, listing the Biblical Old Testament passages where the subject of slavery is mentioned.
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But that's neither a measure of their knowledge or grasp of the subject-- any amateur theologian wanna-be with a Bible concordance and a critical spirit can do that.
They, conveniently at best (or ignorantly at worst), ignore the FACT that the New Testament passages that address the relationships between masters and slaves (or slaves and masters) SPECIFICALLY STRESS the principle of reciprocal relationships between slaves and their earthly "masters."
(See Ephesians 6:5-9 and Colossians 3:22-4:10).
This principle effectively abolishes the societal values and corresponding social structure that "allows" slavery in any form to exist, for the Christian. BTW, that type of reciprocity is also captured in the Biblical "Golden Rule" that is quoted by Christians and non-Christians alike.
In essence, the New Testament dis-allows slavery at its roots-- in the relationships between individual human beings.
Consistently, the New Testament teaches its followers that they are NOT FREE to simply adopt and follow societal values and practices that are not compatible with the Kingdom of God.
By contrast, the Quran does NOT repudiate slavery at all. Nor does it "lay down" the principle that slaves and masters are to treat each other with reciprocity in their individual relationships. Most of the slaveholders in the world today are Muslim. Perhaps this is why they feel free to “own” other human beings……..
Have any of us who call ourselves "Christians" ever been in error in belief and practice, doing things and believing things that were "at odds" with Biblical teaching? YES! Have Christians ever "held slaves?" YES!
Have Christians then ever "seen the light," and changed their minds (the meaning of "repentance, BTW), modified, however modestly or radically, their behavior and values to conform to Biblical teaching and encouraged others to likewise? YES! This is the proud history of Christian "abolitionists."
Can there be Muslim abolitionists who can cite the Quran in their abolitionist endeavors?
If there are any, I haven't heard of them.......-
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alamintalib7 months ago
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Hello Vettenut, I respect your response and the way that you presented it and the fact that you presented it from a perspective of belief.
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I tell you, you and I can talk specifically about slavery in the Quran and Bible in another setting or directly. I dislike how these responses veer off from the initial article. I personally tried to come back to the African-American perspective. The thing is that there were analogies made between Quranic verses and Bible verses that were parallel and no one acknowledged the similarities.
You must admit that if others can quote the Quran, that that same license can be given to the Bible. The thing is, I won't try to stuff my understanding of the Bible down YOUR throat.
I ask you to read some of Wikipedias description of slavery in Islam. I also have a couple lines described here. I am always willing to reciprocate knowledge. I don't know if you buy into this branding of all Muslims as deceivers(via the slogan "taqiyya") but if you don't, please lets continue to correspond.
The slandering against us reminds me of slanders set against Black people. especially the statement that our characteristics were an inherited curse from Cainan and Ham. I remember one quote from the Babylonian Talmud that said:
" Cainanns children shall be born ugly and black. His lips shall swell, his grandchildrens hair shall be twisted into kinks and their male members shamefully elongated. Men of this race are called "Negro". There forefather Cainaan commanded them to love theft, fornication, to be banded together in hatred of their master and to never tell the truth"-
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Mutainia7 months ago
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Ala: " Cainanns children shall be born ugly and black. His lips shall swell, his grandchildrens hair shall be twisted into kinks and their male members shamefully elongated. Men of this race are called "Negro".
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Mut: Are you saying that the word "Negro" is a HEBREW word and NOT a Spanish word for "black"? But, even if it is, and you aren't quoting something written by Muhammadans to make Jews look racist toward blacks, WHY do we need to go to Wikipedia to learn about Islam and slavery when the article ON Islamic slavery could have been written by a Muhammadan performing al taqqiya? Why not just think on the significance of Quran 4:24, which, to me, tells it all in a nutshell.
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Dionys7 months ago
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"Consistently, the New Testament teaches its followers that they are NOT FREE to simply adopt and follow societal values and practices that are not compatible with the Kingdom of God."
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And yet consistantly the OT and NT point to the idea that slavery is acceptable within the KoG.
"By contrast, the Quran does NOT repudiate slavery at all. Nor does it "lay down" the principle that slaves and masters are to treat each other with reciprocity in their individual relationships. Most of the slaveholders in the world today are Muslim. "
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alamintalib7 months ago
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In perspective, it seems foolish and non-productive by fixing your own forums with catch-22's all over, kinda like speed traps or pretty much any walk-up attraction at a traveling carnival.
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You can't ask a question and say that you are initiating a conversation to seek answers and then in EVERY intermission claim to the viewers that nothing that my opponent is saying is real because of his license to lie. Kinda like the disclaimers you see on Jack Azz or Myth busters "Don't try this at home".-
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Mutainia7 months ago
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Hey, when I'm called a liar for presenting facts ANYone can easily and quickly study for themselves in this day and age of information, I have a very difficult time NOT believing I'm dealing with a Muhammadan performing al taqqiya (lying to defend and spread Islam for Allah).
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EDWARDIII7 months ago
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About five sixteenths of me can claim to be afro-american so I guess I'm qualified to answer. "Our" "gripe" is valid and should not be trivialised by some white guy who is clearly looking for a rhetorical loophole. But the author deserves credit for his work. He has uncovered the fact that Mohamed was writing for an audience of caravan raiders at a time when Chritian popes and wariors were no better. Ancient texts are no measure of anything except the ethos of the past. It is the duty of all religious people to aid in the rehabilitation of their practices and use old wisdom selectively.
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I'm fuzzy on the dates but in Bagdad between 900 and 1100 a definative decision was made by those in power to condemn rational thought (called falsafa-a transliteration of philosophy). Meanwhile in Europe Aristotle was read and expanded upon until we have our incomprehensible modern world and a thousand-year head start on Islam. Modern Moslems are still learning to escape from the ancient dogmas and revalations like the one the author expresses should be known. I just wish he hadn't tried to link it with the "gripe" because he ruined his crediblity. Even though I'm a black conservative there have been times when white people seem like they just want to humiliate. This feels like one of those times.-
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Mutainia7 months ago
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Forget the word gripe, here. You do realize, sir, that IF the Quran is true and something that needs to be followed, then Quran 4:24 (about the allowance of sex with married slaves girls) makes null and void ANY complaint from ANYone who hates slavery, not just African American hatred of slavery for the time their ancestors were enslaved in America, don't you? But, I titled this, "Does Quran 4:24 Remove African American Gripe" because IF the reality of Quran 4:24 gets out, hey, Islam just might lose African America converts in a BIG way...a BIG chunk of American converts might leave Islam in record numbers, God willing.
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EDWARDIII7 months ago
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Thanks for your response.
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I agree with you--"IF the Quran is true.." No work of mythology is true or false. The Quran can not be proved or disproved by reason and therefore is mythology. The same is the case for the Mahabarata and the Lotus Sutra and the Judeo-Christian works.
The only thing I'm saying about the gripe issue is how I react to the author's use of it. It reminds me of being the only dark-skinned guy in a bar where tipsy white guys are trying to explain why the civil rights movement got it all wrong. I don't hate the author of the clip or the guys in the bar, for that matter. It just makes one feel bad. The point should be the Quran, not race. We're all big enough to see the implications for ourselves.-
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Mutainia7 months ago
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Oh, I agree, it SHOULD be the Quran and not race. Would should be called a "religionist" and NOT a "racist" when pointing out Quranic problems. But, although it is myth to you, it brings hateful alienation and DEATH to anyone who would dare to point out the evil in it, inCLUDING Quran 4:24, and, that is just the TIP of the iceburg when it comes to the threat the Quran brings to world peace. I'm sorry it made you feel bad to see a title like "Does Quran 4:24 Remove African American Gripe", but, then, dropping atom bombs on two Japanese cities made a LOT of people feel horrible as well...and ended World War II. Again, beLIEVE me, sir, the GRIPE of African American's IS warranted. Which is why I just HAD to bring it into this battle I have with the Muhammadans on this web site. I mean, NO African American gripe for something that IS warranted, and, NO one would then care that the Quran not only allows for slavery, but, sex with married women slaves (i.e. "what your right hand possess").
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EDWARDIII7 months ago
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Finally I get that you're the guy in the clip. Good.
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I'm a person of color second, Free market capitalist American first. If you irritated me then you really turned off a lot of other people. If you are trying to drive people away and make them not like you, you are doing a good job. You can sit all alone on a hill somehwere and cry out "I WAS RIGHT."-
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Mutainia7 months ago
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How do I know you are who you claim to be? You SAY you are a "person of color", but, BEING that I'm pointing out the evil of Islam and using Quran 4:24 that takes away the gripe of African Americans, how does ANYone here NOT know that you just aren't a Muhammadan using taqqiya (lying for Allah) to try to make it sound like you are a concerned African American offended over the title of this story as away to, again... distract from the message...WHICH, again, is that Quran 4:24, IF of "Holy origin", totally makes null and void ANY gripe OF African Americans FOR the time America had slavery? IF you disagree, tell us why Quran 4:24 DOESN'T remove the gripe instead of trying to make it a RACIAL issue. Please, HOW does Quran 4:24 NOT take away the gripe of African Americans for the time America had slavery IF it's ok to not ONLY HAVE slavery, but, have SEX with married slave women? How?
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Mutainia7 months ago
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By the way, you are the FIRST ever African American I've met who mentioned the longest epic poem ever. I mean, the ONLY people I know who know of the Mahabharata, are Indians and Pakistanis. How come I get the feeling you are the latter here?
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Mutainia7 months ago
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Ed: I'm a person of color second, Free market capitalist American first.
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Mut: Right, I got that.
Ed: If you irritated me then you really turned off a lot of other people.
Mut: A LOT of other people? Really? Are there THAT many people in this world who can only focuss on race and not message? Are you SURE about that?
Ed: If you are trying to drive people away and make them not like you, you are doing a good job.
Mut: I'm not here to get people to like me. I am mostly here to get people aware of what is coming AT them... a 7th Century death cult that uses lies and deception to get the free world's GUARD down.
Ed: You can sit all alone on a hill somehwere and cry out "I WAS RIGHT."
Mut: Perhaps I will be able to DO that some day. In the meantime, maybe someone with courage and reason will be able to look beYOND their OWN racial bigotry and prejudice, to see where I'm getting at? Well, one can only hope.
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