Comments for Israel moves closer to banning mourning of its independence - Haaretz - Israel News »
Posted By dissent 6 months, 2 weeks ago in NewsPublic commemoration of Israel's independence as a day of mourning could become a crime subject to prison penalty, should a bill approved on Sunday by a ministerial panel be brought to the Knesset and cabinet for vote.
The Ministerial Committee for Legislation on Sunday approved a preliminary proposal which would make it illegal to hold events or ceremonies marking Israel's Independence Day as a "nakba," or catastrophe.
Rather than holding barbecues and parades on Independence Day, Israeli Arabs and Palestinians usually take the day to commemorate the dispersal of Palestinians during the 1948 War of Independence.
Palestinian refugees around the world and Israel's Arab citizens mark the Nakba on May 15, the day after the British mandate over Palestine ended in 1948. Nakba Day is often observed by the Arab population in Israel with marches through destroyed villages.
According to the bill, those found in violation could face up to three years in prison.
Read Full Story at haaretz.com »
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AbuAmirahComment removed: Spammer, Hard Banned
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engineer6 months, 2 weeks ago
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kobzikov6 months, 1 week ago
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"It's just like saying the US should not be independent and mourning the US's independence."
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Free speech and freedom of expression rights are protected by First Amendment and if you don't like it, see how many other "patriots" you can find to help you outlaw it.-
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Thinker226 months, 1 week ago
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>Free speech and freedom of expression rights are protected by First Amendment...
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Oh yes, of course. If only you posted here a list of countries where it is (or was) legal to call for the destructioin of this country DURING A WAR...
I'm waiting, Kobzikov...-
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kobzikov6 months, 1 week ago
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What does the legal framework of other countries during wartime have to do with US law?
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There have been a number of protests in Iraq and recently Afghanistan with people chanting "Death to America". I'm not aware of anyone being arrested, jailed, fined, or charged with anything because of it. Is there some international law that criminalizes anti-Americanism during wartime that you are attempting to reference?-
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Thinker226 months, 1 week ago
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>What does the legal framework of other countries during wartime have to do with US law?
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As far as I recall you've complained about a proposed ISRAELI law, Kobzikov. Israel is one of those "other countries"...
If you're interested in the US law, however, you may tell us about the protests IN THE US where AMERICANS were chanting "Death to America" during a war. This situation will be similar to the protests in Israel where Israeli citizens are chanting "Death to Israel".
Alternatively, you may try to answer my original question and list the countries where it is (or was) legal for the citizens of those countries to call for the destruction of THEIR country DURING A WAR. If you're unable to list such countries it will mean that Israel will be no worse of any state even if case the proposed law in question is voted for.-
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kobzikov6 months, 1 week ago
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"As far as I recall you've complained about a proposed ISRAELI law, Kobzikov. Israel is one of those "other countries"..."
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Your recollection, like your logic is p*ss poor. Where EXACTLY have I said a word about Israeli law? Please quote me directly.
"Alternatively, you may try to answer my original question and list the countries where it is (or was) legal for the citizens of those countries to call for the destruction of THEIR country DURING A WAR."
I did answer your original question. You asked quote, "If only you posted here a list of countries where it is (or was) legal to call for the destructioin of this country DURING A WAR..."(emphasis is mine) and I answered it. I don't see any reason to answer your revised questions until you've answered mine.
"If you're unable to list such countries it will mean that Israel will be no worse of any state even if case the proposed law in question is voted for."
Really? Calling for destruction of Israel is not against the law in Israel already? So will you tell us about the protests in Israel where Israelis were chanting "Death to Israel" and no one was arrested, charged or fined for it? It doesn't even have to be during a war.
I'm not sure what any of this has to do with proposed law which criminalizes mourning of naqba, but introducing idiotic deflections from original topic is only appropriate for you, since you've got nothing relevant to say in regard to the subject of the article.-
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Thinker226 months, 1 week ago
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> Where EXACTLY have I said a word about Israeli law? Please quote me directly.
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Of course. This is what Engineer said:
"If you live in Israel, it's anti Israel to mourn its independence. It's just like saying the US should not be independent and mourning the US's independence."
This is your EXACT reply:
"Free speech and freedom of expression rights are protected by First Amendment and if you don't like it, see how many other "patriots" you can find to help you outlaw it." It's obvious that either your statement had nothing to do with the one you've replied to or, alternatively, it had everything to do with the proposed Israeli law.
> You asked quote, "If only you posted here a list of countries where it is (or was) legal to call for the destructioin of this country DURING A WAR..."(emphasis is mine) and I answered it. I don't see any reason to answer your revised questions until you've answered mine.
Can you show me where I've asked you to show a list of countries where it was legal to call for the DESTRUCTION OF THE UNITED STATES? "This country" means "the country where the calls for destruction are made", NOT "United States of America"... but I'm not surprised you're unable to answer my question. I can not answer it, either.
> Calling for destruction of Israel is not against the law in Israel already?
No, it's not. If it was some Kneset members would sit in jail and not in the Kneset.
> So will you tell us about the protests in Israel where Israelis were chanting "Death to Israel" and no one was arrested, charged or fined for it? It doesn't even have to be during a war.
First, Israel IS at war. Second, some people WERE arrested during such "protests". Incidentally, they were arrested for VIOLENCE, NOT for chanting.
> I'm not sure what any of this has to do with proposed law which criminalizes mourning of naqba...
Can you elaborate on your vision of HOW the mourning of naqba will proceed? I can assure you that in case it will not be associated with violent demonstations and calls for destruction of Israel no one will be arrested.-
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kobzikov6 months, 1 week ago
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"It's obvious that either your statement had nothing to do with the one you've replied to or, alternatively, it had everything to do with the proposed Israeli law."
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False. Engineer's comment wasn't exclusively about Israeli law, he attempted to draw comparisons to US. My comment was solely about US and its laws, not about Israel, since I've referenced only US law.
""This country" means "the country where the calls for destruction are made", NOT "United States of America"..."
You used the word "this" as an adjective, and since you haven't mentioned a country before that point, just a "list of countries", that means the adjective "this" refers to the country I was talking about, which is US.
"but I'm not surprised you're unable to answer my question. I can not answer it, either."
There are groups in US, who call for destruction of America. For instance, Westboro Baptist Church, who were never arrested or charged on the basis.
"No, it's not. If it was some Kneset members would sit in jail and not in the Kneset."
Like who and for saying what? Please provide reference sources.
"some people WERE arrested during such "protests". Incidentally, they were arrested for VIOLENCE, NOT for chanting."
Again please provide references, links or anything so that your claims can be verified.
"Can you elaborate on your vision of HOW the mourning of naqba will proceed?"
Why do you ask me? Why not ask those who actually organize remembrance activities like NGO Zochrot?
"I can assure you that in case it will not be associated with violent demonstations and calls for destruction of Israel no one will be arrested."
I didn't ask for any assurances from you, nor can you give me any even if you could speak for Israeli government on the matter. Israel has arrested participants in nonviolent demonstrations before and I have no reason to believe that the policy will change any time soon.
Can you explain why mourning of naqba needs to be outlawed as opposed to calls for destruction of Israel? Or why it would be a crime to call for destruction of Israel if it's done outside of remembrance of naqba?-
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Thinker226 months, 1 week ago
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>Engineer's comment wasn't exclusively about Israeli law, he attempted to draw comparisons to US. My comment was solely about US and its laws, not about Israel, since I've referenced only US law.
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So, as I've said, your response had nothing to do with Engineer comment you've replied to. He was talking about Israeli law which was compared to the US law. If YOUR comment was EXCLUSIVELY about the US laws what was the purpose of your comment?
> ...that means the adjective "this" refers to the country I was talking about, which is US.
False. This discussion was about ISRAELI law and about ISRAELI citizens calling for destruction of ISRAEL. I was asking for examples of countries where similar actions were legal during a war.
>There are groups in US, who call for destruction of America.
Please provide reference sources about these groups acting legally DURING A WAR.
>Like who and for saying what? Please provide reference sources.
Like MK Ahmed Tibi (Ra'am-Ta'al) who insist on his "right" to travel to enemy states with which Israel is at war, for example:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/918985.html
Now it's YOUR turn to show a couple of reference sources to prove that it is legal for Americans to travel to enemy states during a war as well. Examples of Americans traveling to Germany and/or Japan without government approval during WWII would suffice.
>Israel has arrested participants in nonviolent demonstrations before...
This is another opportunity for you to provide a couple of reference sources to support the statement above. I'd like to see official Israeli statement saying that these people were arrested for participation in nonviolent demonstrations and NOT for other reasons.
>Can you explain why mourning of naqba needs to be outlawed as opposed to calls for destruction of Israel? Or why it would be a crime to call for destruction of Israel if it's done outside of remembrance of naqba?
I'm not sure what you're asking for. I've already said that in case mourning of naqba will not be associated with violent demonstations and calls for destruction of Israel no one will be arrested. I do believe, however, that calls for destruction of a state during a war by citizens of the state meant to be destroyed is, was and should be qualified as a high treason and punished accordingly.-
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kobzikov6 months, 1 week ago
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"So, as I've said, your response had nothing to do with Engineer comment you've replied to."
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US law has nothing to do with the claim that "saying the US should not be independent and mourning the US's independence" is a crime under US law?
"If YOUR comment was EXCLUSIVELY about the US laws what was the purpose of your comment?"
I've demonstrated that engineer advanced a false analogy when he compared Israel's proposed criminalization of remembrance of naqba with US law by mentioning that mourning of US independence or saying that US should not be independent is speech protected by First Amendment.
"This discussion was about ISRAELI law and about ISRAELI citizens calling for destruction of ISRAEL."
The discussion was about Israeli law as compared to US law, it was not about anyone calling for destruction of Israel, which so far you have not shown to be a part of any naqba remembrance event in Israel.
As for the rest of your post I don't see what it has to do with First Amendment or proposed Israeli law, so I'm planning to ignore the unrelated claims contained in it.-
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Thinker226 months, 1 week ago
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>The discussion was about Israeli law as compared to US law, it was not about anyone calling for destruction of Israel, which so far you have not shown to be a part of any naqba remembrance event in Israel.
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The so-called "Naqba" (catastrophy) is associated with the establishment of the State of Israel, Kobzikov. If you believe that mourning about a catastrophic event has nothing to do with possible elimination of the results of this events it's up to you.-
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kobzikov6 months, 1 week ago
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"If you believe that mourning about a catastrophic event has nothing to do with possible elimination of the results of this events it's up to you."
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Nice, straw man, but that's not what I said. I said that you have not produced any evidence to support your claim that calls for destruction of Israel are a part of naqba commemorations in Israel. Until you do, your claims will remain completely baseless and irrelevant to my response to engineer in particular and to the article in general.-
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Thinker226 months, 1 week ago
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>I said that you have not produced any evidence to support your claim that calls for destruction of Israel are a part of naqba commemorations in Israel.
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Yes, you did. Here is an example of Nazba commemorations in... the US:
http://zombietime.com/nakba-60/-
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kobzikov6 months, 1 week ago
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Nakba commemorations in other countries by Palestinians are irrelevant to Israeli law criminalizing remembrance of the event by Israelis in Israel.
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Since you don't seem to understand the basic fact I see no reason to continue the discussion with someone who consistently relies on ignoratio elenchi fallacy.-
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Thinker226 months, 1 week ago
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> Nakba commemorations in other countries by Palestinians are irrelevant to Israeli law ...
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...but they are more than relevant to supporting my claim that calls for destruction of Israel are a part of naqba commemorations. Case closed!-
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kobzikov6 months, 1 week ago
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Sorry, but that was not your claim, here is what you said:
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"If only you posted here a list of countries where it is (or was) legal to call for the destructioin of this country DURING A WAR..."
Later you explained to me that ""This country" means "the country where the calls for destruction are made""
I'm ok with you closing the case on a lie, though suffice it to say that even if your claim has been about calls for destruction outside of the state where the call for destruction was made all along, which it wasn't, I objected to it on the grounds that it has nothing to do with the article which discussed criminalization of Nakba remembrance INSIDE Israel, or my comment to engineer, which was about US law.-
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Thinker226 months, 1 week ago
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>here is what you said:
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> "If only you posted here a list of countries where it is (or was) legal to call for the destructioin of this country DURING A WAR..."
> Later you explained to me that ""This country" means "the country where the calls for destruction are made""
Very well, Kobzikov. You should be proud. You've, finally, got what I've asked for. Now... if only you posted here a list of countries where it is (or was) legal to call for destructioin of the country where the calls for destructions were made DURING A WAR... In return, I'll give you this:
A recent document produced by Israeli Arab leaders and which represents the consensus of Israeli Arabs, shows that Israeli Arabs seek “nothing short of the destruction of [the] Jewish national state.” Addressing the Herzliya Conference today, Dr. Shueftan said that the document, entitled ‘The future vision of Palestinian Arabs in Israel,’ envisaged Israel being replaced by a bi-national state. The document also outlined a mechanism to turn it into an Arab state.
Here is an excerpt from this document itself:
http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article6381.shtml
As you can see, it is still legal to call for destruction of Israel during a war and I've asked you to show a list of countries where similar activities were legal as well. If you've found such countries you would be able to claim that THOSE countries and Israel were MORE democratic than the rest of the world where calling for destruction during a war was ILLEGAL. For as long as you're unable to produce the list I've asked for it means that (at least to you best knowledge) Israel has THE MOST liberal laws in this (freedom of speech) department.-
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kobzikov6 months, 1 week ago
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I've given you ample opportunity to produce evidence that calls for destruction of Israel are a part of Nakba remembrance events IN Israel, since you have not done so, I dismiss your claim as completely irrelevant to the subject of the article and to the comment I posted and you as a troll and a liar.
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Case Closed.-
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Thinker226 months, 1 week ago
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> ...produce evidence that calls for destruction of Israel are a part of Nakba remembrance events IN Israel, since you have not done so...
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This is the link to the evidence you've requested that was contained in the post you've replied to, Kobzikov:
http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article6381.shtml
Enjoy!-
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Thinker226 months, 1 week ago
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But of course! This is the comment under the first picture in the report:
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"While the celebrations for Israeli independence day are going on in other parts of the country, young Palestinian citizens of Israel observe a march taking place in the destroyed village of Hosheein in memory of the Nakba, 12 May 2005."
Do you enjoy making a fool of yourself, Kobzikov?-
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kobzikov6 months, 1 week ago
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I don't understand what the relationship you think there is between a picture of a couple of teenagers at a Nakba remembrance event in May, 2005 to a report issued by The National Committee for the Heads of the Arab Local Authorities in Israel in December 2006, which contained no such picture.
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Are you saying that because whoever posted an excerpt of the report on EI website in January 2007 has used the picture that means the report was a part of the Nakba remembrance event in 2005 or some other Nakba remembrance event in Israel?-
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Thinker226 months, 1 week ago
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>I don't understand what the relationship you think there is between a picture of a couple of teenagers at a Nakba remembrance event in May, 2005 to a report...
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There is a relationship between Arab teenagers waving Palestinian flags at a Nakba remembrance event in May, 2005 to calls for destruction of Israel being a part of this or simila events. As you may recall, your original request was for evidence that calls for destruction of Israel were a part of Nakba remembrance events IN Israel.
To understand it better you may consider that most sane Americans would see waving a Japanese flag somewhere in Chicago, IL back on July 4, 1942 by a group of Japanese Americans as a call for defeat of the United States in its war with Japan.-
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kobzikov6 months, 1 week ago
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Nakba commemorations aren't held on the same day as Israel's independence day celebrations.
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Nor do I consider most American public during World War II steeped in its anti-Asian bigotry and in grips of collective paranoia in which it had no problem with getting behind Japanese internment to be particularly sane, though maybe you consider that to be a great example of "democracy" in action.-
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Thinker226 months, 1 week ago
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>Nakba commemorations aren't held on the same day as Israel's independence day celebrations...
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...due to differences between the Islamic calendar used by Arabs and the Gregorian calendar used by Israelis. The two coincide every 19 years. This, however, has nothing to do with the intent to link Israel's Independence Day and the Palestinian 'Catastrophe' day. Do you enjoy making a fool of yourself, Kobzikov?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba_Day
>Nor do I consider most American public during World War II steeped in its anti-Asian bigotry...
In this case WHY did not you show any links to documents describing waving a Japanese flag during WWII by Japanese Americans in Chicago or any other place within the US?
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Thinker226 months, 1 week ago
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> "some people WERE arrested during such "protests". Incidentally, they were arrested for VIOLENCE, NOT for chanting."
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> Again please provide references, links or anything so that your claims can be verified.
Well, this is one example of a 'peaceful' pro-Palestinian demonstration in... Malmo, Sweden. According to the article, some demonstrators were arrested there as well.
http://tedekeroth.wordpress.com/2009/02/08/arabs-t...
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dissent6 months, 1 week ago
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As far as I recall you've complained about a proposed ISRAELI law, Kobzikov.
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well this is where the problem with your little rants begin tinker. your lack of comprehension skills.
kobzikov was showing engineer that her american analogy was incorrect due to the 1st amendment. read it all again. imo an apology is in order-
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Thinker226 months, 1 week ago
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>kobzikov was showing engineer that her american analogy was incorrect due to the 1st amendment. read it all again. imo an apology is in order
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Sorry, Dissent. If (as you believe) Kobzikov's "showing" was NOT about Israeli law then WHAT the American analogy was to?
Further, if this American analogy was "incorrent due to the 1st amendment" why neither Kobzikov nor you showed us a couple of links to articles describing protests IN THE US where AMERICANS were chanting "Death to America"?
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hyperbola6 months, 1 week ago
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Not at all engineer. Mourning the start of the racist zionist state is the same as mourning the start of the "aryan master race" state in Nazi Germany or the start of the "white supremacist" state in apartheid South Africa.
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Interesting how your "tribal loyalty" leads you to support racist totalitarianism that is not much different than Nazi Germany. I certainly hope that you are not an American - we don't need such extremists in our coutry. -
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dissent6 months, 1 week ago
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quite understandably, indigenous people everywhere mourn national days as the day their colonial oppression began and subsequently the creeping genocide that has turned them all, without exception, into walking ghosts, the soon-to-be extincted.
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all irrelevant arguments as to their right to even be there in the first place aside, it is no different for the palestinians.
but to make the mourning of their loss of their lands, their autonomy, their humanity and their dignity to colonial theft illegal with the threat of punishment by incarceration is not a hallmark of either free speech or the right to protest. it is certainly not the hallmark of justice.
it is the boot stamp of an oppressive and brutal police state paranoid at losing control and determined to indoctrinate by force. you must be nationalistic or suffer the consequences of the state. all dissenting views will be punished ..... this is what we could expect from north korea and i'm quite sure you would have no hesitation in condemning it.
yet, because it is israel -- the untouchable and not to be questioned -- you, engineer, a supposed liberal, support this? how blindly fanatical and schizophrenic of you
personally i think this is further evidence of israel's increasing state paranoia; fearful of losing its grip on control it seeks only to irrationally further tighten it, not realizing that the harder you squeeze the harder dissent and rebellion will kick back.
revolutions are born from acts such as this. zionism is fracturing
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