Comments for Christianist Terrorism Claims Life of Abortion Doctor George Tiller »
Posted By metavirus 7 months ago in ReligionGeorge Tiller, the Wichita doctor who became a national lightning rod in the debate over abortion, was shot to death this morning as he walked into church services. Yet again, an unhinged member of a religious fundamentalist group kills a person with which they disagree with the aim of terrorizing a country into agreeing with their fundamentalist beliefs. This time, however, it happened not in some far-away country in the Middle East but right here at home.
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smithichie7 months ago
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metavirus7 months ago
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i agree with you to an extent. although i think it's unlikely that this was some random mugging. the most likely motivation behind his murder (like so many before him - remember Dr. Barnett Slepian? / http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barnett_Slepian ) was christian fundamentalist opposition to abortion and some demented justification that killing a doctor wouldn't be bad whereas aborting fetuses is.
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smithichie7 months ago
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Oh, I am not saying it was random, hence the use of the word "terrorist". I think it's obvious why this Doctor was targeted, I just am not so sure of the reasoning behind the motive or the religion, if any, of the terrorist.
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Don't get me wrong, I will not be surprised in the least to find out the terrorist is indeed a Christian fundie, it's just there are a number of other possibilties too. How about an angry Hindu or Atheist father of a recently aborted fetus, for example?-
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metavirus7 months ago
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a fair enough point. one thing to consider is an eerie timing coincidence. May 31st (today) is the sixth anniversary of the capture of radical Christian anti-abortion terrorist and Olympic Park Bomber Eric Rudolph. http://thepoliticalcarnival.blogspot.com/2009/05/d...
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smithichie7 months ago
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There are still folks who consider that cowardly terrorist to be a hero, no doubt some will consider today's terrorist to be a hero too. I just hope it doesn't take as long to catch the terrorist from today as it took to capture Rudolph.
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UnusualSuspect7 months ago
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Hey, wolfie...
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Should the government waterboard the terrorist coward and see if he has any information he can give the authorities, such as the names of other people who might have the same idea in mind?
I have to agree with engineer's post below...if the killer/terrorist is a Christian Fundamentalist, isn't he just as bad as a Islamic Fundamentalist?-
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THOMNH627 months ago
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one large distinction between the two terrorists, the first one wants to kill doctors who in their mind are killing babies. Note I said in their mind. The other wants to kill everyone who is a non-believer of their faith by any means, be-heading, bombing etc. I think we have to understand the fact the extreme muslim terrorists are not satisfied until everyone is dead,. The killer in this case should be tried convicted and sentenced, but remember we are not at war with radical anti abortionists.
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Spadecaller7 months ago
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Islamic, Judaic, or Christian Fundamentalism continues to be the source of hate speech that advocates and incites violent acts of terrorism. Christian Fundamentalists who use the first amendment to justify this conduct and to insist that it is their "right to kill" in the name of God must be addressed by law, education, and exposure.
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Jeboba7 months ago
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metavirus7 months ago
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i agree that Limbaugh Hannity and Beck are sleazebags but I don't think they should be muzzled. we should struggle mightily in the battle of ideas and emerge triumphant. i know, i know, they don't peddle "ideas" so much as lies and smears. but in a free society, a-hole talking heads like them have a right to press their views. we just need to be better at pushing back against their views.
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Jeboba7 months ago
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Once someone 'incites to riot' or 'advocates hatred and violence' then their right to free speech is terminated. You still can't yell FIRE in a crowded theater if indeed there is no fire! This is what these right wing hate peddlers do every single day.
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metavirus7 months ago
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i am very sympathetic to your point but that fact is that there is a big gulf in the law between simply saying cruel hateful things and actually inciting people to violence. we need to engage their hatred in the war of ideas and win. any action by the government to muzzle them would only be counterproductive.
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sonofreasonComment removed: Hard Banned2 Replies
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PetesakeComment removed: Hard Banned
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swasdiva7 months ago
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You obviously didn't notice he was slain in a CHURCH. Meaning, he was probably attending services with others who may not have agreed with his career choice but didn't want to kill him over it. Being religious does not make you a nutcase, the same way being a nutcase does not make you religious.
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swasdiva7 months ago
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For real? There is a positive correlation between nutcases and racism/sexism/domestic abuse/anti-semitism/political parties/Star Trek vs. Star Wars/or-any-other-ism-that-compartmentalizes-peopl... What about all the billions of religious people of ANY faith that help the world with charitable work, ya know, those who actually live by the true precepts of their faith? Religion is powerful because it gives the common man a spiritual and communal refuge, and because of that foundation it is easily exploited. Nutcases and evil bastards exploit it. That does not make religion, faith, spirituality, what-have-you evil in and of itself. Correlation does not equal causation.
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swasdiva7 months ago
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Interestingly enough all the major news sites are using the same phrase: "abortion doctor" or they focus on his late-term abortion procedures. I haven't found a copy of this article yet that announces he's a regular OB/GYN. Ah, Sensationalism.
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mmrhe7 months ago
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metavirus7 months ago
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smithichie7 months ago
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I could see some nut at PETA or Earth First being capable of such an act and just like this terrorist today, I would expect to see them punished and treated equally. I don't know about Beck, but I am certain Rush has a security detail, one that is no doubt well worth the expense.
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metavirus7 months ago
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a fair point. i went to high school with a girl who later turned out to be an environmental terrorist (if i remember correctly, she burned down a forestry service office -- with no people in it). the one distinguishing characteristic between left wing "terrorism" and right wing "terrorism" in this country is that leftwingers don't usually kill people
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Eagle_Eye7 months ago
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"distinguishing characteristic between left wing "terrorism" and right wing "terrorism" in this country is that left wingers don't usually kill people"
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Now that is a very true statement, in fact they "liberate" when possible, and at every move making sure there is no harm to people, animals and nature-
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metavirus7 months ago
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indeed. i of course abhor any kind of serious illegal action to make a political point (e.g. burglary, arson, etc.) but when it rises to the level of killing people (e.g. the killing of Matthew Shepard or abortion doctors), it achieves a special kind of horror
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sonofreasonComment removed: Hard Banned4 Replies
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mmrhe7 months ago
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And yet, they HAVE'NT smithichie!
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What does that say about these Fundies?
And please, let's not pretend it's something other than that
There is only so much of this s-hit people will put up with before they decide to fight fire with fire.-
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smithichie7 months ago
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That they haven't is in several cases just dumb luck. When you are blowing things up and burning things down, there is ALWAYS a danger of someone innocent dying.
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There are Doctors who live their lives in much the same fear as Dr. Tiller. Some of the folks who experiments include the use of live animals have been targeted no different than doctors who perform abortions. It is simply a matter of time before some nut takes out one of these 'targets'.
Terrorism is terrorism, no matter what political leanings may be behind it.-
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Eagle_Eye7 months ago
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"Terrorism is terrorism, no matter what political leanings may be behind it."
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Terrorism is the school bully picking on peers, terrorism are rapists, murders, assualters (spouses, strangers, verbal and physical), etc and there is no age limit from young to old, rich to poor we live in a world of terrorism. Pretty sad to think about that in this day and age.-
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CaptainLucid7 months ago
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Not everything is terrorism. I someone kills someone in a botched holdup or because they an agro freak and got cut off in traffic that is not terrorism. On the other hand a husband who threatens to kill the whole family if the wife leaves is terrorism. What has to be looked at it whether fear is being used to further a goal as opposed to being a tool to accomplish an immediate task.
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engineer7 months ago
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metavirus7 months ago
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fundamentalism? check
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radical views outside of the mainstream? check
hatred and fear of differing viewpoints? check
squelching of doubt or dissent? check
strict literalist reading of a holy book? check
violence used in service of their fundamentalist views? check
terrorizing citizens with violence in order to advance their views? check -
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Wolfie20077 months ago
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So engineer when was it that Christian fundamentalists flew air planes into buildings in the United States killing thousands of innocent people? How many times have Christian's threatened to destroy your country and how many times have Christians chopped heads off of hostages and captured soldiers? Well, duh, none and never. Do you ever think about the stuff you post and realize how stupid it appears?
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engineer7 months ago
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Wolfie
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You haven't taken a strength of materials course. You don't know melting points are of jet fuel vs structural steel. You don't understand, in fact anything regarding engineering.
If you study, which I do not think you'll do, you will find there is no way the World Trade Center could have come down from two planes.
I promise you'll immediately come back with a response that will be meaningless without a bit of investigation into the above knowledge and courses -
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eezzbeatComment removed: Hard Banned19 Replies
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donrp087 months ago
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I'M A CHRISTIAN, NO POLITICAL PARTY AFFILIATION, AND I DO NOT CONDON MURDER FOR ANY REASON. I DO, HOWEVER, BELIEVE DOCTOR'S WHO PERFORM LATE TERM ABORTIONS NEED TO BE ARRESTED AND CHARGED WITH MURDER. THAT'S BECAUSE IT IS IN FACT MURDER!!!
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swasdiva7 months ago
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Ya know, he was just giving an opinion (although please no ALL CAPS next time?). No one inferred abortion or more specifically late-term abortion was against the law (in...oh about 36 states)... oh wait...
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And dude, there've been laws on the books like, "It's illegal to carry an ice cream cone in your pocket."
Lawful does not always equal sensible.
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bubba27 months ago
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donrp08 -- you need to catch up on your current events.
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Late last year/earlier this year, Dr. Tiller WAS put on trial for violating the Kansas state laws regarding late-term abortions.
He was found NOT guilty.
Dr. Tiller performs legal late-term abortions, all within the law AND all are legal BECAUSE it is the LIFE of the MOTHER that is in jeopardy. The procedure is allowed to save the life of the mother who would otherwise die.
Try understanding some FACTS about it all before you make such blanket statements and generalizations.-
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metavirus7 months ago
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facts aren't important to him and his ilk. all that is important to them is SCREAMING STUFF REALLY LOUDLY and trying to terrorize people into ascribing to their particular form of orthodoxy. facts only get in the way. YOU MUST BELIEVE
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Bacalao7 months ago
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Hell let the mother die! Its the fetus that is important! Oh, wait, isn't the mother the life support system for the holy fetus. Without her it would die too. Oh well, i guess its better to take your mother with you to the grave than be aborted.
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wrfhsgovComment removed: Retracted by user11 Replies
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Eagle_Eye7 months ago
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"Christian Terrorist", yep that's a really good title, just goes to show that there is no safe place from terrorists, even our God's holy house is subject to terrorists.
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This Doctor also ONLY performed late term pregnancies with second opinions that the mothers life was in danger. I just don't understand the need for People to post such crap as he was a killer, should we just let these woman die from complications?? Would that make the Christian pro lifers happy?-
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CaptainLucid7 months ago
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Dang, even in the middle ages it was a custom that if you reached a church you could no longer be pursued for a crime. Deal was though you could never leave and reduced to begging. Even in Islam the Mosque is neutral. Have some people sunk that far?
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ISITJUSTME7 months ago
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I have been told by a minister that my anti-abortion views were too extreme but after saying that I will protect a woman's right to choose how she uses or misuses her own body. It is her RIGHT not to have a child she is not willing to love, nourish and provide for or for you and I not to adopt. This was an act of domestic terrorism.
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metavirus7 months ago
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absolutely right
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Terrorism:
Terrorism is a policy or ideology of violence[1] intended to intimidate or cause terror[2] for the purpose of "exerting pressure on decision making by state bodies."[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism -
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Jaydee407 months ago
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metavirus7 months ago
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because there are millions of people in this country who do not believe in the same things you believe. your religion says life starts at conception. it used to say many different things on the topic. other religions say it happens later. my non-belief says that it happens at birth. because we live in a pluralistic society in which you aren't allowed to shove your religious teachings down my throat, you don't get to force your definition of when life starts down my throat either.
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cloud157 months ago
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Technically metavirus, from a biological standpoint, life begins at conception. After the egg and sperm meet, a new organism is created. This organism has its own set of DNA, and its cells replicate.
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Personally I don't agree with abortion; but from a legal standpoint I believe you can't outlaw it.-
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metavirus7 months ago
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the point is that many different groups have many different viewpoints on when a "life" deserves its own legal personhood apart from the mother. christianity has chosen nearly a half-dozen points in time over the centuries. other religions choose other times. everyone agrees that a living baby, separated from the mother's womb, is a separate person deserving of legal personhood. that is the only point we can fix in the law. doing anything else would be to enshrine one religion's theological views in the law, which we cannot do.
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sonofreasonComment removed: Hard Banned27 Replies
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smithichie7 months ago
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Cloud, you seem to be forgetting sperm and egg cells are alive too. I don't think the question is whether life begins at conception or not, because the fact is it's before conception. The question is, is that life a protected individual or a part of it's mother. As a society we have judged that life to be part of it's mother until it is outside it's mother.
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Eagle_Eye7 months ago
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""As a society we have judged that life to be part of it's mother until it is outside it's mother""
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That's a great point, until that time it is a parasite attached to the mothers womb.
I was always taught by the Catholic Church that life starts at birth with the first breath taking in the soul.......but some how the Evangelicals spinned it into some thing else over the course of several decades.. Even the bible in Genesis says life starts with Adams first breath when God breathed the breath of life into him... -
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cloud157 months ago
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I agree that sperm and eggs are living, but they aren't their own organism. Sperm or eggs can't be considered their own organism any more than a skin cell can. They are simply part of a larger organism. When the sperm and egg fuse they create a new, seperate organism. This organism carries out cellular division, metabolic functions, and other activities that would make it its own new organism.
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cloud157 months ago
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What are scientists saying that I am saying is wrong?
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The life of what begins before conception? Of course there has to be life before conception, or else there would be no life at all. But is that life its own organism? No. Sperm and egg are not their own organism. They are like any other specific cell, like skin, muscle, skeletal, etc. They are part of the organism, not the organism itself. When the egg and sperm unite, they create a new organism.
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Natureboy7 months ago
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A baby is an infant, a newBORN that has traversed the birth canal or otherwise been delivered into the light of day.
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Phrase your question correctly - why is the woman's right more important than the rights of an embryo, zygote or fetus? -
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Jaydee407 months ago
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FTA "terrorizing a country into agreeing with their fundamentalist beliefs"
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I believe killing babies is fundamentally wrong, does that make me a fundamentalist? It's easy to throw words associated with the latest group on the medias hit list to make someone sound more evil but does it fit here? Honestly think about someone killing defenseless babies, Who amongst us would not kill someone trying to kill a baby? Now where people draw the line is at what stage is a baby viable. That's what separates the two sides here, nothing more.-
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metavirus7 months ago
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well, you might have a point if everyone agreed with you that a fetus is a baby. however, we do not agree and you do not have a right to force through laws whose only justification is your reading of a holy book. if you want to live in a theocracy, go move to a theocracy. this is a republic and your view is not held by everyone else, so stop trying to shove it down my throat.
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by the way, what do you think would happen if abortion was suddenly criminalized, as you suggest?
do you think abortions would stop?
nope. women would still have just as many abortions but would be forced into underground black market abortion shops, where many more women and babies would die of complications.
have you ever thought about how well drug prohibition works? what about the crime of prostitution?-
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cloud157 months ago
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Meta not everyone who is opposed to abortion thinks that way because they're religious. There are plenty of people who look at it from a biological viewpoint and come to the same conclusion.
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"by the way, what do you think would happen if abortion was suddenly criminalized, as you suggest?
do you think abortions would stop?
nope. women would still have just as many abortions but would be forced into underground black market abortion shops, where many more women and babies would die of complications."
I agree 100% with what you just said there. Thats the reason why outlawing abortions would be irresponsible at best. Were not going to be seeing a decline in abortions so the amount of abortions will not decline. Its only affect would be the increase in the deaths of mothers due to complications from back alley abortions.-
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metavirus7 months ago
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i understand that some people have non-religious reasons for not supporting abortion. you and the hundreds of different religious and non-religious groups are entitled to your opinion. as you appear to understand, there is no way to get all that varying opinion into law. for one, it goes against the notion of church and state. for another, outlawing it would do nothing.
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CaptainLucid7 months ago
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"nope. women would still have just as many abortions but would be forced into underground black market abortion shops, where many more women and babies would die of complications."
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Actually only the undeserving poor will go to back alleys. Ever heard of "English train trips" for Irish women where it was illegal. The same hippocrite who is banning abortion is the same one whose pregnant daughter is taking a "vacation". Just like the drug war. The rich white connected son does not go to jail. Ask W to define how that works. -
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Natureboy7 months ago
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"well, you might have a point if everyone agreed with you that a fetus is a baby."
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Yeah, and I'm thinking that those in disagreement would be Websters and Funk and Wagnalls.
This is not a matter of opinion but one of definition. A fetus is not a baby.
Don't agree? Walk up to a mother with a baby, chuck it under the chin and tell mom "What a cute little fetus!" And then duck. -
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Jaydee406 months, 4 weeks ago
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If you had been around propeller/netscape long enough you would know I am an Atheist so your assumption my anti abortion stand was based on religion would not have wasted everyones time. There are many non religious people who see it as killing because that is exactly what it is, changing the name from baby to fetus does not change the fact. The argument that it is not a viable life on it's own is utter bunk because at what age can a child survive on it's own? Now you must have noticed I never called anyone a murderer as I do recognize the law says it is legal, that does not mean it can't be change or must not be changed or that new guidelines can't be brought in.
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Natureboy7 months ago
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The doctor in question was not "killing babies." He would immediately have been arrested for such a thing.
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He was aborting FETUSES. SAY IT WITH ME, DAMMIT, FETUSES, FETUSES, FETUSES!
You should stand trial for crimes against the English language.-
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Jaydee406 months, 4 weeks ago
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And just what is a Fetus then? You can call it anything you want but that does not change what it is and what is done to it. It's alive until a doctor kills it. Unlike some people like to think of it it is not a cancerous growth, it's a developing human being.
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cloud157 months ago
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sonofreasonComment removed: Hard Banned10 Replies
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sonofreasonComment removed: Hard Banned3 Replies
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Goppy7 months ago
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This proves to me that many find their way to Modern American Christian Evangelicalism through a road of "Sick Mindedness".
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How often do you read about people who are self abusers ... alcoholics, drug addicts ... then they find "God".
Look at George W. Bush ... alcoholic .... then finds 'God'.
This isn't spirituality ... it's "Sick Mindedness" and it has little to do with Uplifting Spirituality.
Modern American Evangelical Christianity is a Morally Vacant POLITICAL movement ... nothing more.
It is more aligned with the goals of the Taliban ... than with Jesus Christ.
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Georgia507 months ago
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Interesting how the same filth who cannot drag themselves, attire notwithstanding, to admit that thousands of victims in hundreds of incidents committed by blood-curdling Islamofascists on every continent but Antarctica cannot and must not allow such a murder spree to tinge one's perception of Islam in the slightest are the same mindless ghouls who are first to use a derogatory, pejorative incendiary term like "Christianist Terrorism" to describe one single murder of a sort that finds not even ten victims in over thirty years.
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OTOH, we are talking about liberals, so I guess there's not much surprise.-
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frctm57 months ago
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This is simply a brand of terrorism in the same way that Islamic terrorism is a brand of terrorism tied to certain religious beliefs that justify the actions. There is no double standard here. Your argument is silly. No one is suggesting that Christian by virtue of their faith are terrorists and the same applies to Islam. Ninety percent of Americans are Christians which would mean most liberals are Christians.
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metavirus7 months ago
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i was hoping you'd grace us with your ever-rational, thoughtful perspective (snicker)
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P.S. Your favorite ultraconservative, Allahpundit, also calls this what it is: "domestic terrorism" http://hotair.com/archives/2009/05/31/george-tille...
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lloydm657 months ago
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Yes liberals have the honor of being the world champion hypocrites,and they wear a badge proclaiming it.They were willing to watch as the terrorist hit us several more times rather than have a terrorist scared of water get his face washed.And yet a doctor who is willing to forcibly reach in side a women,turn a child around usually breaking an arm,or leg,then removing the child to a position just an inch,or two before he,or she becomes a U S citizen.Of course he must then by contract destroy the brain so as to assure the state the child is/was dead before the removal is completed.Of course there won't a funeral,because that little bundle laying there with arms,and legs,fingers,and toes is not a baby.O God have mercy not just on the abortionist,and their backers,but also us who shrug our shoulders and declare that Roe V Wade is settled law.
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metavirus7 months ago
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By the way, I thought people would be interested to know that ultraconservative blogger Allahpundit also called Dr. Tiller's assassination "domestic terrorism":
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"The murder of George Tiller at his church is a heinous crime, without any sense or justice. Regardless of how one feels about George Tiller’s profession, his murderer is nothing more than a domestic terrorist — someone attempting to impose by force a policy that one cannot get in place through democratic means." http://hotair.com/archives/2009/05/31/george-tille... -
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metavirus7 months ago
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actually, he is a devoted christian who drove around with a jesus fish on his car and believed that the lord would excuse his murdering someone because he was saving the little babies.
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you can't just claim that everyone who does bad stuff in the name of Christianity isn't a Christian.-
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grailpuffin7 months ago
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Sure you can.
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It's pretty clear in the guide book:
"You shall not murder."
There is no * with a footnote saying, except in the case where you're saving little babies.
The same book also says, `they'll know you are my disciples by your love'. Can't see where that was exhibited in this case.
Just because you go to garage, it doesn't make you a car.
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smithichie7 months ago
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As an atheist I have never denied a person's claim of faith. If someone tells me they are Christian, or some other faith, I take them at their word. Now, religious folks on the other hand...many seem quick to decide who the TRUE followers are and aren't. As an atheist, if I were to have listened to all the claims of people who have told me which folks aren't TRUE Christians, I would have to believe there were NO Christians.
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grailpuffin7 months ago
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You can generalize all you want, but the moment the killer pulled the trigger he wasn't acting as a Christian fundamentalist or anything Christian from that point one.
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He simply became a murderer.
All you haters can stop trying to paint him with your broad anti-religious brushes. You just sound strident.
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