Monumental Mistake »
Posted By Spadecaller 5 months, 3 weeks ago in ReligionDespite the court’s decision that an eight-foot-high Ten Commandments monument erected in front of the Oklahoma courthouse must come down because it violates separation of church and state, the conservative people of Haskell County, who claim to love America, display contempt for the underlying principles embodied in our constitution. Isn't Intolerance of constitutional law the antithesis of patriotic sentiment?
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Spadecaller
Welcome to my profile. About me: I'm an artist of several kinds; from bull to painting. I don't spare too many words. Most ...
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Spadecaller5 months, 3 weeks ago
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Locky12Comment removed: Spammer, Abusive19 Replies
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Spadecaller5 months, 3 weeks ago
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The separation of church and state is a legal and political principle derived from the First Amendment to the United States Constitution, which reads, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof . . ." The phrase "separation of church and state" is generally traced to an 1802 letter by Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Baptists, where Jefferson spoke of the combined effect of the Establishment Clause and the Free Exercise Clause of the First Amendment. It has since been quoted in several opinions handed down by the United States Supreme Court.
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The Supreme Court has determined the meaning of this guiding principles through various decisions; those that respect the rule of law and the process by which our constitution is amended and interpreted accept these guidelines as law. -
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Endoscopy5 months, 3 weeks ago
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icono1Comment removed: Spam
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icono15 months, 3 weeks ago
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http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/constitution/am...
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Beau78905 months, 3 weeks ago
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Time after time, courts have held that placing Ten Commandments monuments on public lands is unconstitutional, and public officials continue to allow their presence in willful violation of the law of the land.
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It may be time to punish those public officials who purposefully disregard court orders to comply, rather than simply removing the monuments.-
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Spadecaller5 months, 3 weeks ago
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"It may be time to punish those public officials who purposefully disregard court orders to comply, rather than simply removing the monuments."
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How about suspending their health insurance benefits until legislation is passed that provides all Americans with a public health care option of equal value? -
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willottica-245 months, 3 weeks ago
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But it's interesting. Whatever previous courts have held... the constitution directly says that the "free exercise" of religion cannot be prohibited.
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Putting up a monument, anywhere, is "the free exercise" of religion, therefore, according to the constitution, it cannot be illegal!
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Spadecaller5 months, 3 weeks ago
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FTA:
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"What if county officials refuse? That exact situation happened in Alabama in 2003. Roy Moore, chief justice of the Alabama Supreme Court, defied a federal court order and refused to remove a two-ton Ten Commandments monument that he had erected in the judicial building.
Eventually, federal marshals came in and took away the monument. Moore was suspended from office and put on trial by the Alabama Court of Judiciary. The Court voted unanimously to remove Moore from office, and his appeal also failed." -
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dailyblueberry5 months, 3 weeks ago
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I used to think the same way about professing my faith. I thought by wearing this T-shirt or having this fish on my car that it said something about who I was. It identified me as a believer and I thought somehow by showing that symbol, I would convert the world. I've come to find out though, that the way I live my life says much more about me than any T-shirt or monument. Its much more effective too.
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I'm sad that taxpayer dollars were probably spent to erect it in 2004 and soon taxpayer dollars will probably have to be used to move it.-
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Spadecaller5 months, 3 weeks ago
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IN recent years, the breach of those areas, where religion and state should remain separate has caused both financial loss and discord among peoples of different backgrounds.
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Those who want "their" nation to be a Christian nation do not understand the country that they say they love. The very notion that one religion should impose its presumed 'truth' on any other religion or belief system in the name of patriotism is not only arrogant, it is dangerous. -
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willottica-245 months, 3 weeks ago
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I think that a monument to the 10 Commandments is quite different from an icon. The 10 Commandments are rules/guidelines. A visible reminder of them might be a good thing. And by displaying it, even those who are non-religious could appreciate those commandments that are meaningful to them.
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not2needy5 months, 3 weeks ago
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Spadecaller5 months, 3 weeks ago
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n2n
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It is not the commandment itself that is adverse; it is the state associating itself to the literature of one religion which invites domination and estrangement. There are enough religious fanatics that use the symbols of their respective religions as proof that this is a nation for Christians only. The same is true of those who would want this nation to be perceived as a nation of Muslims or atheists; that would be just as misleading and problematic. Our nation needs to uphold an image that portrays the principles embodied in our constitution; that our government is not allied with any sect, denomination, religion, or sect.
The symbols of our unity as the "UNITED' States need to be emphasized in a nation consisting of many religions and cultures. It is not the content of the commandments that are being challenged; but the place of sharing its wisdom needs to be confined to the churches and temples, where those that worship what these monuments represent do so voluntarily. -
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aceofspades15 months, 3 weeks ago
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n2n - I would have negged your comment, but I believe you really don't understand the entire concept of government support of religious dogma.
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A monument saying something like - live in peace with your neighbors- is not a quote from any particular religion but conveys the same message. -
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smithichie5 months, 3 weeks ago
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I don't think there would be a problem with a display of the commandments if ALL of the commandments were secular in nature, like Thou Shalt Not Kill.
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The problems arises when you get to the commandments about not having other gods. How else is a Hindu or Atheist supposed to read a commandment like that displayed at Courthouse other than the State establishing one religion over another? -
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Natureboy5 months, 3 weeks ago
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"I know there's supposed to be a separation of Church and State, however, how can something so basic as 'Thou Shalt Not Kill' harm anyone? Mixed emotions."
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You're cherry picking.
"And God spoke all these words, saying: 'I am the LORD your God…"
Well, no, he's not. Not unless I subscribe to one of the three Abrahamic religions.
"ONE: 'You shall have no other gods before Me.'" Telling me who to worship. It's not the place of the state to do this.
TWO: 'You shall not make for yourself a carved image--any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.' OK, AFAIK Islam is the only religion that takes this seriously. Wander into any large church and count the various likenesses of Jesus, Mary, angels, apostles, ad nauseum. Still, if I want to carve an image, that's my choice, and the state has no business telling me not to.
FOUR: 'Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.' I am not obliged to rever "the sabbath" as anything more than a day off, and the state has no business telling me otherwise.
Now THESE words, the words of Thomas Jefferson, should be posted in every courthouse in the land -
"It behooves every man who values liberty of conscience for himself, to resist invasions of it in the case of others: or their case may, by change of circumstances, become his own."
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Justice4All5 months, 3 weeks ago
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I was in junior high when prayer was banned in school. But the teachers made us do it anyway.
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In teaching us to follow orders in lockstep with school rules they also taught us that it is our responsibility to break any rule we don't agree with. -
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Mikunited5 months, 3 weeks ago
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I think separation of church and state, is an enlightened piece of legislation.Here in the UK we don't have such a separation.As a multicultural nation,that has many religions,atheists and agnostics among it's populace,it somehow sends the message the Anglicans are superior.Also we have the laughable situation where government,on behalf of the Queen,(another silly thing about the UK),choose the top Anglican bishops.This is despite there being many Catholic,Muslims,Hindus etc member of the government.It makes me happy that I'm not religious.
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Everything possible should be done in the USA,to keep state and church separate.Evan at the cost of upsetting a few right-wingers.-
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smithichie5 months, 3 weeks ago
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Mikunited, I absolutely agree and would go one futher. Separation of Chruch and State most certainly protects atheists such as myself, but it also protects the Chruch. If America had a State religion, I doubt we would have seen the rise of such diverse Christians as Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Snakehandlers, David Koreshians and so on. With no State regulations, Churches are free to practice as they believe and if they find themselves in disagreement with the fellows they are free to open up a whole new branch.
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calitennflo5 months, 3 weeks ago
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Go to Texas and you will find one that George Bush managed to erect...oh...look at this word definition:1. Tradition; occult doctrine. See Cabala [Obs.]
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--Hakewill.
2. A secret. [Obs.]
``The measuring of the temple, a cabal found out but lately.'' --B. Jonson.
3. A number of persons united in some close design, usually to promote their private views and interests in church or state by intrigue; a secret association composed of a few designing persons; a junto.
Note: It so happend, by a whimsical coincidence, that in 1671 the cabinet consisted of five persons, the initial letters of whose names made up the word cabal; Clifford, Arlington, Buckingham, Ashley, and Lauderdale. --Macaulay.
4. The secret artifices or machinations of a few persons united in a close design; intrigue.
By cursed cabals of women. --Dryden.
Syn: Junto; intrigue; plot; combination; conspiracy.
Usage: Cabal, Combination, Faction. An association for some purpose considered to be bad is the idea common to these terms. A combination is an organized union of individuals for mutual support, in urging their demands or resisting the claims of others, and may be good or bad according to circumstances; as, a combiniation of workmen or of employers to effect or to prevent a change in prices. A cabal is a secret association of a few individuals who seek by cunning practices to obtain office and power. A faction is a larger body than a cabal, employed for selfish purposes in agitating the community and working up an excitement with a view to change the existing order of things. ``Selfishness, insubordination, and laxity of morals give rise to combinations, which belong particularly to the lower orders of society. Restless, jealous, ambitious, and little minds are ever forming cabals. Factions belong especially to free governments, and are raised by busy and turbulent spirits for selfish purposes''. --Crabb.
Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913) -
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ind065 months, 3 weeks ago
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I understand the concept that the state shall make no law respecting the establishment of a religion and that precedent holds that the placing of any individual religion's monuments, etc. in a prominent place on public lands is held to violate the first amendment of the bill of rights but, truth be told, I could truly care less about the monument, Christianity is already the dominant religion of America. If it wasn't the local politician wouldn't be caught dead risking his career to save some hunk of rock. Actually, What bothers me are just such politicians, elected public officials, who seem to be ever ready to gleefully and publicly flaunt their disdain for the centuries old law of our land. Those people have no place in office.
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Spadecaller5 months, 3 weeks ago
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Our nation will undergo more turbulence and civil unrest simply based on religious intolerance as we blur the lines that church and state should not cross.
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Interesting to note...a good portion of the fist settlers of this nation came here directly as a result of religious persecution and the freedom to practice ones separate beliefs is upheld best by a nation that does not endorse one or more religions. From this principle the Supreme Court has upheld the concept embodied in the first amendment - separation of church and state. The manipulative invoking of God in politics is terribly dangerous to this nation and our future.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUWU3MGS2bY -
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Charlson5 months, 3 weeks ago
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People who have to have visual reminders of their faith in public view on government property must be very unsure of their religion and have that pack mentality that can easily turn into a mob. They are not content until everyone is like them and will do their best to discriminate against those who resist
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johnnyt5 months, 3 weeks ago
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just to add to the stupidity of this thread. according to this article atheism is a religion.
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http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTI...
by that assumption if we remove the christian, muslim, whatever religious icons from all government centers then the government is therefore supporting the religion of atheism by not showing any religious icon at government buildings.-
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djn3nunez35 months, 3 weeks ago
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Interesting case Johnny.
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http://bulk.resource.org/courts.gov/c/F3/419/419.F...
"The Supreme Court has recognized atheism as equivalent to a "religion" for purposes of the First Amendment on numerous occasions, most recently in McCreary County, Ky. v. American Civil Liberties Union of Ky., ___ U.S. ___, 125 S.Ct. 2722, ___ L.Ed.2d ___ (2005). The Establishment Clause itself says only that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion," but the Court understands the reference to religion to include what it often calls "nonreligion." In McCreary County, it described the touchstone of Establishment Clause analysis as "the principle that the First Amendment mandates government neutrality between religion and religion, and between religion and nonreligion." Id. at *10 (internal quotations omitted). As the Court put it in Wallace v. Jaffree, 472 U.S. 38, 105 S.Ct. 2479, 86 L.Ed.2d 29 (1985):
At one time it was thought that this right [referring to the right to choose one's own creed] merely proscribed the preference of one Christian sect over another, but would not require equal respect for the conscience of the infidel, the atheist, or the adherent of a non-Christian faith such as Islam or Judaism. But when the underlying principle has been examined in the crucible of litigation, the Court has unambiguously concluded that the individual freedom of conscience protected by the First Amendment embraces the right to select any religious faith or none at all." -
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willottica-245 months, 3 weeks ago
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Poking around a bit, and getting more details of the story here:
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http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5...
It seems as though this is doomed to fail. It looks very much like this is a deliberately religious monument, there's nothing to separate it from others that have been deemed unconstitutional in the past. And though they tried to get it to match the one that was deemed constitutional (van orden v. perry) they seem to have failed to grasp WHY that was deemed constitutional, and it wasn't because of the specific wording, but the context. -
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touchmenot1201965 months, 3 weeks ago
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It is not in there. Thomas Jefferson stated that in a letter to a Baptist Church in PA. Please get your facts straight. Also go into the Capitol, The National Archives, and also the Supreme Court Bldg. They keep the door open because if they were closed you could see the 10 Commandment on the wall. Check it out. I hate to tell you, hmmm no I don't hate to tell you. I am PROUD THIS IS AND WAS FOUNDED AS A CHRISTIAN NATION! I am sorry you can't accept this but it is true and part of history. Check out the old textbooks before the 1950's. You will find out the truth. Also check out www.Wallbuilders.com . They have the documents or copies of the documents.
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smithichie5 months, 3 weeks ago
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You're correct, the phrase, "separation of Church and State" does not appear in the Constitution. However the SCOTUS has ruled, again and again that this is the intent found in the First Amendment.
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Likewise, the word gun does not appear in the Second Amendment.
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smithichie5 months, 3 weeks ago
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This story reminds me of the mess Washington had over a Nativity Scene displayed in their Statehouse. It was ruled that the display was alright, so long as, EVERY other type of display was allowed. The atheist display drew headlines but it may be the Festivus Pole that has them rethinking displays of anykind.
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truthfirst5 months, 3 weeks ago
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PsychoHosebeast and Natureboy -
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I wish that you would watch your language and not use my Father's name in vain.
The Bible says, "Do not misuse the name of the Lord your God, because the Lord will punish anyone who misuses His name." Exodus 20:7 -
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