The Big Hate - Paul Krugman »
Posted By deathray 4 months, 3 weeks ago in Political NewsBack in April, there was a huge fuss over an internal report by the Department of Homeland Security warning that current conditions resemble those in the early 1990s — a time marked by an upsurge of right-wing extremism that culminated in the Oklahoma City bombing.
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deathray
Hm...summarizing a life...Investment banker, sailor, unintentional gourmet cook. Ex US Naval officer, also Foreign Service. Split my time between NYC and Miami Beach ...
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deathray4 months, 3 weeks ago
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If you're having trouble getting the link to work, here it is in an easier to access link:
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http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/12/opinion/12krugma...
oh, and you can join my girlfriend in calling me a dumbass for not getting the link right in the first place -
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jordan114 months, 3 weeks ago
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Why would some conservatives assume that they would be seen in the same light as extremists in their midst? Could it be because they themselves have villified liberals for decades because of their own extremists, such as radical "tree huggers?" They don't like the conversation focusing on their extreme factions after all this time? Gee, that's too bad. ;)
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deathray4 months, 3 weeks ago
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here a reason why, fta:
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"... for the most part, the likes of Fox News and the R.N.C. haven’t directly incited violence, despite Bill O’Reilly’s declarations that “some” called Dr. Tiller “Tiller the Baby Killer,” that he had “blood on his hands,” and that he was a “guy operating a death mill.”
so, did he indirectly point the finger and wait for someone else to commit a violent act, or is he soehow complicit?
is someone going to tell me that Bill O'Reilly is not a conservative, or that he is an entertainer?
i welcome your feedback. -
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marahnatha4 months, 3 weeks ago
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Maybe because all during the Vietnam War our soldiers and their supporters were called "baby killers" by the left? We also have read Saul Alinski. We know how you think.
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It was only natural to call actual baby killers, "baby killers."
Maybe because anybody that doesn't agree with the homosexual political agenda is called "homophobic?" Anyone that disagrees with Obama's policy is labeled "racist?" Every
once in a while one of you slips like Kramer (Michael Richards) did and is discarded because he is no longer useful to you.
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Goppy4 months, 3 weeks ago
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What I find interesting is the role reversal of the 'youth-rebellion' movement of the 60's and the 'social-conservative-movement' of today.
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Back in the 60's - anger towards an unjust, indefensible war and anger towards the inflexibility towards Civil Rights ... led many to violence to achieve their ends.
Today - you have the Right Wing ... with their Audacious Self Righteousness ... for whom demonstrations (tea parties) ... murder (Dr. Tiller) ... and bombings (Oklahoma) are justified as acts of "Civil Disobedience".
But put another way ... these are angry people who parade as opponents to Tyrannical Government ... but who desire ... TYRANNICAL RULE.
In essence ... they want to create a society where THEIR Self Righteousness defines the social landscape.
The only problem is ... this movement is continually defined by the hypocrisy of the movement.
As when ... Newt Gingrich pillories Bill Clinton's sexual adultery ... while Newt himself is engaging in adultery with a much younger woman.
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deathray4 months, 3 weeks ago
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i certainly agree that the right wing anti-government movement is interesting when juxtaposed with the left wing counter-culture movements of the 1960's...in fact, isn't it likely that some of the members of the latter have become the most vocal members of the former?
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splitrch4 months, 3 weeks ago
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"As when ... Newt Gingrich pillories Bill Clinton's sexual adultery ... while Newt himself is engaging in adultery with a much younger woman."
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Goppy, if that was the worst of it the world would be a much better place.
The Republicans thought they DESERVED to rule after Reagan. Like somehow the deified one was the best President ever. He is probably somewhere in the lower middle of the pack.
They we're ****** that Clinton won but it was their fault for splitting the ticket in 1992. Ever since they have been making the country pay for their anger. What we are dealing with now are the results of Republican Rule. I just hope Obama isn't too influenced by the desire for "bipartisanship." They lost the election and now we have to bring things back to an equilibrium. Congress - are you paying attention?
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marahnatha4 months, 3 weeks ago
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Is the whole environmental movement guilty for the killings of the Unibomber? I didn't kill Kennedy in the 60's and I didn't kill Tiller. Five abortionists have been killed since Roe v Wade. Only Paul Hill had an active role in the pro life movement and nobody defended what he did or protested his imprisonment. This is the reason we left the peace movement and NOW in droves, we are not for murder or throwing bricks for that matter, at any living thing.
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We do retain the same legitimate right to peaceful protest as the left. If it was legitimate to show pictures of the horrors of war and the number of coffins coming home, (something that is never shown now that Obama is Commander in Chief) or for PETA to tape packing plants,it is legitimate to show the horrors of abortion and how the institution covers up for child rape and even performed an abortion on a woman who was obviously being pressured by a boyfriend to have it done. We too are Americans and we too have First Amendment rights. We have not taken the law into our own hands and we do not condone the killing of Tiller. -
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lfergie8124 months, 3 weeks ago
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I believe calling them the party of law and order is a stretch. I have yet to see in my life time a Republican president that did not engage in unlawful acts of some kind. Going back to Eisenhower and his removal of an elected leader and plan to invade Cuba, to Nixon and his "I am not a crook" which was proven false, to Reagan and the Iran Contra scandal which included Bush number one, to the present day torture embarrassment of his son. Maybe Ford comes out fairly clean but his pardon of Nixon puts doubt on his integrity.
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What I have a problem with is their supposedly fight for less government intervention in peoples lives and business while demanding the government stop what they disapprove of. -
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Goppy4 months, 3 weeks ago
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I personally believe that ... when the Jerry Falwell movement joined forces with the so called 'Republican Revolution' back in the day ... it was the birth of an American Taliban.
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It didn't have to turn out that way ... but when Morally Vacant Hypocrites and Power Hungry Politicos take over a movement ... Extremism is usually the result.
The Activist Christian Conservative movement has many similar elements to the Taliban that arose in Afghanistan.
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marahnatha4 months, 3 weeks ago
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I personally believe that ... when the Jerry Falwell movement joined forces with the so called 'Republican Revolution' back in the day ... it was the birth of an American Taliban.
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What you believe personally has no basis in fact. Have you visited any of the training camps with the monkey bars the Christian Conservatives are using to practice beheading?
Have you had any missles blow up your Unitarian Antichrist Center or Planned Parenthood
establishment?
It didn't have to turn out that way ... but when Morally Vacant Hypocrites
You mean the "peace" activists like Bill Ayres or Tiller's "Pastor?"
Power Hungry Politicos take over a movement ... Extremism is usually the result.
Yeah, like bailouts of banks, big Corporations and bankrupt Democratic states while professing to care for the poor?
The Activist Christian Conservative movement has many similar elements to the Taliban that arose in Afghanistan.
Name five.
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EDWARDIII4 months, 3 weeks ago
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The Times exposes itself again as a mouthpiece for the democratic party. To equate opposition to the radical socialistic tendency of the current administration with anarchic terrorism is just a strategy to create a one-party system.
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Goppy4 months, 3 weeks ago
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I don't quite know what it's like to view the world in such black and white terms, EDWARDIII.
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And I don't think I'd be better for learning how to do that.
Your 'canned, knee-jerk' assessment of teh New York Times being a mouth-piece for the Democratic Party loses all steam when one considers that William Crystal was their OpEd writer of record ... until recently leaving.
As you may or may not know ... William Crystal is a founding member of the Modern Neo-Conservative movement - and a staunch supporter of every right wing effort of the past 20 years.
His replacement, although not as yet interwoven in the most extreme ... (sick) ... philosophy of the Neo-Cons ... is nevertheless ... a Conservative by any stretch.
His name is Andrew Rosenthal.
Perhaps you haven't read the Times and are unfamiliar with the variety of opinion therein.
This is a common condition for Modern American Conservatives ... as they work and play in a world of stereotypes and un-thinking 'code' ... supplied to them by the myriad Right Wing sources of 'Group-Speak'.
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slate4 months, 3 weeks ago
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I went to see the 3D ultrasound of my 28 week mass of tissue Thursday. What a cute little guy, you should have seen him smiling the little embryo of nonviable tissue.
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Nahh killing one of those is killing an actual baby or having blood on you hands, you can sleep the deep sleep of the innocent, night night and God bless us everyone.-
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pokydoke4 months, 3 weeks ago
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You seem to be under the impression as usual that pro choice means pro abortion. That is just not true, there are many reasons to abort a pregnancy and I don't think that you or anyone else has the right to tell a mother what she can and cannot do, it's between her and her doctor. Congrats on the new baby by the way.
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GWHayduke4 months, 3 weeks ago
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Thank you for the sermon, Reverend.
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Although I disagree with abortion and could never see myself / wife / girlfriend going through with the procedure, I do respect the laws of this country.
God bless the law abiding citizens of this country. -
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smithichie4 months, 3 weeks ago
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Slate, what would you do if instead of a healthy DEVELOPING baby, those scans instead showed a developing baby with little to no brain, or organs developing on the outside? Do you realize some of the developmental tests only can be done in the third trimester?
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Dr. Tiller believed it was medically unethical to provide a woman with a test and then not provide her the means to do anything, which is why he performed late term abortions.
Would you guilt trip your daughter if she chose to terminate in the third trimester because she didn't think she was up to the challange of a 'special needs' child? Have you experienced the joy of when a 'special needs' child has grown large enough and violent enough to place the parents life in actual danger?
Personally, I don't blame women who decide they are not up to it and frankly don't think it's anyone's business but her's and her doctor's. -
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donald514 months, 3 weeks ago
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slate, what if it was a medical critical choice beetween the mother or the child, you fool? You would eliminate any choice at all for this women and her body - sounds rather dictatorial of you, slate.... but you like torture and preemptive war too!
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k9kssr4 months, 3 weeks ago
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Slate,
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Congratulations are in order for your blob of 28 week old tissue!! I remember the 3D ultrasound of my daughter's blob at that stage of development with what is now my 12 month old granddaughter. In the ultrasound she had her little blobs of tissue divided into what resembled human hands folded against the side of what appeared to be a face (complete with eyes, nose and tiny rosebud mouth). Strangely, after her birth and she became a "real" person with certain rights, she slept the same way!! Amazing! -
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gamahuche4 months, 3 weeks ago
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Krugman shines, as usual..
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FTA:
But this doesn’t change the broad picture, which is that supposedly respectable news organizations and political figures are giving aid and comfort to dangerous extremism.
What will the consequences be? Nobody knows, of course, although the analysts at Homeland Security fretted that things may turn out even worse than in the 1990s — that thanks, in part, to the election of an African-American president, “the threat posed by lone wolves and small terrorist cells is more pronounced than in past years.”
And that’s a threat to take seriously. Yes, the worst terrorist attack in our history was perpetrated by a foreign conspiracy. But the second worst, the Oklahoma City bombing, was perpetrated by an all-American lunatic. Politicians and media organizations wind up such people at their, and our, peril.
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I think its the utter RECKLESSNESS of the people who are willing to channel hatred at whatever their perceived "opposite" nemesis that frightens me the most..
Its much more extreme than it is in most parts of Europe. I can go into a shop in my small town and have a chat with the owner and he'll ask me a very direct question; I'll respond to him with me passionate opinion - for example re the proposed "missile shield" here - and when I ask his opinion and its the exact opposite we almost fall over laughing because the human relationship is so much more significant than the "idealism"..
The US, in my experience, has almost always been much more segregated into interest groups and the differences between people, rather than being seen as marvellous diversity are instead seen as threats. The person with the contrary opinion is rapidly cast as "the other". When "the other" IS extremely different - e.g. Obama as the first black President - its simply too much for many people to deal with and they revert into some infantile mode of "yah boo sucks" - we hate EVERYTHING about him - he holds his blackberry in the wrong hand it probably means that he wipes witht he wrong one too..
Our tiny "new democracy" remains part of a culture that has had to survive hundreds of years of foreign rule and domination and though its still a work-in-progress to get up to speed with 20th Century Europe its survival was ensured by the solidarity between individuals of great diversity despite their invading occupiers' attempts to divide and rule. Of course the holocaust happened here too but some of the targets survived and I see one of them every day when I look in the mirror. -
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lloydm654 months, 3 weeks ago
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GWHayduke> This is not a law,but an edict hand down by old men.Besides roe v Wade of today was not what we had in seventy three.At this rate of progression,by the year twenty,twenty we could have post birth abortions,you know to make sure it's really wanted.Wouldn't take much of a change in law.Just declare that life begins at day,one,two,or three.As long as we keep it between the doctor,and the mother.Husbands are already denied a part in the decision.
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GWHayduke4 months, 3 weeks ago
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Not a Doctor are you?
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Not exposed to perinatology, huh?
There are some ghastly conditions created in this ever-expanding population of ours. External and internal factors have caused humans to see a dramatic increase of diseases, mutations, syndromes and chromosomal anomalies across the board.
Forcing a woman to carry a non-viable baby to term on some moral high ground is nothing more than crass piousness.
As for your 'theory' concerning post birth abortions or an increase in performing the procedure - you really should learn more - abortion has been in steady decline.
http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,184...
Still too many, I agree, but many are absolutely necessary. -
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smithichie4 months, 3 weeks ago
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Mine and my ex's last pregnacy was unwanted. Do you think I should have been able to override her decision for what I would have done?
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I would have opted for an abortion. She opted for adoption. Silly me, I supported her decision since I figured it's her body.
A man's decision time is when he is deciding who to have sex with and what sort of protection to take. If he is afraid of having a potential child aborted he should only sleep with pro-life or anti-choice women, he should discuss these issues before sex and he should be in charge of his own sexual protection.
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marahnatha4 months, 3 weeks ago
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It all goes back to Abraham Lincoln accusing Harriet Beecher Stowe, asking, "Are you the lady that started this (Civil) war?" for writing "Uncle Tom's Cabin." How many African Americans who think for themselves have been accused of being "Uncle Toms" for not making themselves useful idiots?
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For the record, there are plenty of tree-hugging Conservatives. We like animals too, we just don't use it as an excuse to have our pictures taken naked for a group of people who condone ********** and killing of "unwanted" animals like PETA does. -
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Poulenc4 months, 3 weeks ago
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I'm not certain that extreme acts of violence are finally attributable to doctrinairism, right or left.
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The guys who kill abortion doctors or fire in places like the Hollocaust Museum are serious nut jobs.
Ideology may fuel their craziness, even "justify" their actions to those doing the heinous deeds, but, finally, what they do transcends partisanship.
Their acts are those of people who kill because they're mental cases--not righties or lefties.-
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deathray4 months, 3 weeks ago
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...except that they are rational enough to premditate their actions, some of which require enough planning that the insanity defense could never apply.
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i believe dr. tiller's murderer to be an example of this
here's a a chart depicting group on group crimes in 2007, cross indexed. it's an eye opener:
http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2009/05/13/opini...
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deathray4 months, 3 weeks ago
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in case anyone is interested, here's a related article that night help clarify things:
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Is Racist Hate Republican or Democratic?
http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/06/12/we...
fta:
"As was Doug J. at Balloon Juice. “How many acts of right-wing terrorism have to occur before DHS is allowed to start keeping track of it?” he asks. “I really don’t get the conservative reaction to the original DHS pronouncement. No one is trying to lump angry Red State commenters in with honest-to-God terrorists…except, weirdly enough, the Red State commenters themselves. There are crazy people out there shooting up abortion clinics and Holocaust museums. These people identify with causes normally described as right-wing. Deal with it. Tea bag away to your heart’s content. It’s not til you start plotting to kill people that DHS should take an interest. If anyone starts spying on you prior to that, then I, the ACLU, and dirty hippies everywhere will support your grievances.”-
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deathray4 months, 3 weeks ago
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here's another quote from another perspective, same article:
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Paul Campos at Lawyers, Guns and Money, however, feels that several recent violent events point up a hypocrisy of Homeland Security efforts:
If radical Muslims had carried out terrorist attacks in Kansas and Washington DC over the past five days, we might be trying to pass legislation giving the president the legal authority to place people in preventive detention, and Daniel Pipes would be implying that we need to round up Arab-Americans (correction: Muslims) and put them in relocation camps.
But it was only a couple of old white guys, so our civil liberties remain unthreatened.
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jimdoze4 months, 3 weeks ago
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How amazing!
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A left wing economist is trotting out the au courant left-wing talking point that conservatives are linked to dangerous extremists. I find it truly amazing how far afield left-wing economists will stray.
Is it surprising to anyone that Salon just ran the same story by Glenn Greenwald? I wonder how many other pundits are running with the same story in "Mainstream Media" outlets this weekend?
It looks an awful lot like a concerted effort to put a jackboot on the throat of conservative dissent.-
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CRYMTYPHON4 months, 3 weeks ago
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Hi JimDoze!
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Saw your delayed comment about how doubting you and bush
about the Iraq war was responsible for killing our soldiers!
That was hate speech.
But if it is any comfort,
- I doubt it moved anybody. Too long, and not exactly convincing.
Probably not, anyway.
If you are worried about me though I will watch for strangers with really old guns. -
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donald514 months, 3 weeks ago
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Conservative dissent: a Texas governor wanting to secede, rebellion from OxyRush and hannity, Un-American claims from Bachmann of Minnesota, all repugs supporting no control on assault weapons, Faux Fox Facts telling folks to arm themselves.... Repug Suprem court judges voting to throw out habeas corpus and supporting torture... eavesdropping on Americans, a repug president outing a CIA agent and getting away with it...a repug president letting 911 happen than lying to let even more Americans die in Iraq, ... the list is so extensive of the continuing dissent and barrage on American values/laws.... from the true terrorist party of America and the world, the Repugs!
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CRYMTYPHON4 months, 3 weeks ago
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Hate is a human condition,no more of the left than the right.
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So is rage, anger, and all other illnesses of the heart.
They afflict us all.
Fortunately, so do love, charity and patience.
What use a political party finds for these
characteristics, - depends on what the party wants.
If your goal is to see a society without hungry children,
without homeless families, without young people economicly
damned for lack of oportunity,
- then your party has a use for your love and hope.
If your party's goal is to plant the flag in as many places
as possible,
to grind the nose of all oponents into the dust,
to mold all citizens into one figure of upright conformity,
- then your party has a use for your hate, your anger,
and your desire to sit in front of a tv and see who got
blown away today.
And each party will work, through tv or radio or speech
or slogan, to encourage these emotions.
Hope, love, tolerance, - these are spiritual treasures.
Democrats and liberals do not own them.
They belong to all Americans.
If the republicans reject them,
we will just hold onto them for a while.
A long while, perhaps.-
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GWHayduke4 months, 3 weeks ago
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Well said Crymty.
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Funny how conventional wisdom is seen as an "effort to put a jackboot on the throat of conservative dissent".
Apparently the conservative elites who brought us 8 years of war, countless deaths, an imploding economy and destroyed diplomatic relations, know better what is good for this country and its people. -
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thesatyr014 months, 3 weeks ago
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The true threat to this nation isn't terrorism,but the insanity of the Far Left. They just want a Communistic one party system where any one who voices dissent is tossed in the Gulag.
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All they do is insult and attempt to marginalized any one who doesn't walk in goose step with their suicidal agenda. The Far Left aren't Americans. They want to see America destroyed from the inside.
They will be the first ones up against the wall when the Revolution comes...or maybe second...after the lawyers.-
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CRYMTYPHON4 months, 3 weeks ago
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You are against insults,
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- and then insult anyone left of you?
against marginalization,
- and then tell us the left aren't even real Americans?
You aren't trying to make sense;
or argue for an opinion.
You are just sort of a propeller decoration;
a statue in a fountain,
its mouth open,
spouting.
What comes out of your mouth,
- is a matter of plumbing.
Nothing to do with you .
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merlin12464 months, 3 weeks ago
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I see the vicious back and forth here and am more convinced than ever that for America and its mangled and manacled Constitution to survive, both ruling parties must be put to the curb and replaced with political institutions that actually care about America, as a whole, and not this patchwork of warring constituencies that will ultimately lead to blood, and massive amounts of it, in our streets. BOTH parties are equally despicable in their own ways, and our children deserve better by having representation as the individuals they are. I look forward to the day when Neocons/Progressives are mere mentions in our history books.
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CRYMTYPHON4 months, 3 weeks ago
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With a 'poof' Merlin the magician appears.
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He shouts "You are arguing! Is that any way for adults to behave?
Is that the way for a democracy to find its voice?"
The debaters stare in silence a moment.
A Democrat and a Republican consider,
then simultaneously say,
"Yes?"
"Oh," says the wizard; "nevermind."
and disapears in a flash of smoke !
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