Comments for The Big Hate - Paul Krugman »
Posted By deathray 6 months, 2 weeks ago in Political NewsBack in April, there was a huge fuss over an internal report by the Department of Homeland Security warning that current conditions resemble those in the early 1990s — a time marked by an upsurge of right-wing extremism that culminated in the Oklahoma City bombing.
Read Full Story at www10.nytimes.com »
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deathray6 months, 2 weeks ago
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If you're having trouble getting the link to work, here it is in an easier to access link:
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http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/12/opinion/12krugma...
oh, and you can join my girlfriend in calling me a dumbass for not getting the link right in the first place -
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jordan116 months, 2 weeks ago
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Why would some conservatives assume that they would be seen in the same light as extremists in their midst? Could it be because they themselves have villified liberals for decades because of their own extremists, such as radical "tree huggers?" They don't like the conversation focusing on their extreme factions after all this time? Gee, that's too bad. ;)
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deathray6 months, 2 weeks ago
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here a reason why, fta:
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"... for the most part, the likes of Fox News and the R.N.C. haven’t directly incited violence, despite Bill O’Reilly’s declarations that “some” called Dr. Tiller “Tiller the Baby Killer,” that he had “blood on his hands,” and that he was a “guy operating a death mill.”
so, did he indirectly point the finger and wait for someone else to commit a violent act, or is he soehow complicit?
is someone going to tell me that Bill O'Reilly is not a conservative, or that he is an entertainer?
i welcome your feedback.-
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quicksilver06026 months, 2 weeks ago
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The conservative talking-heads need to take responsibility for their reckless commentary and accept that it isn't merely snarky...for the predatory, it's like throwing chum in the water.
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Now, I'm sure a few neocons will accuse me of suggesting that the likes of Beck and O'Reilly are as guilty as if they pulled the trigger or set-off the bomb - whilst I agree that would be a bit over-the-top, I do contend that their irresponsible rhetoric fortefies the camps who actually do. -
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GehlLady6 months, 2 weeks ago
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"is someone going to tell me that Bill O'Reilly is not a conservative, or that he is an entertainer?"
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I'd say he is an 'entertainer', as in his first priority is to make money, and stir up controversy for ratings, which makes him more money.
I do not believe O'Reilly has culpability in Tillers murder. No matter what any TV/radio personality says, the only person responsible is the man that attacked. That man was loony long before O'Reilly was on the air. The only way to attach responsibility to O'Reilly would be if he said, word for word, 'Someone needs to kill Tiller'. Even then it would be a thin stretch, but a link could be made.
Where would the line be? Would no on-air personality be able to express a strong opinion of opposition to the actions of a specific person? Would they have to consult lawyers before they called out anyone on their actions? If Palins daughter(s) were sexually attacked, would Letterman be responsible?-
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deathray6 months, 2 weeks ago
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it depends on the degree to which a person feels goaded into performing an act.
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o'reilly made it clear, through his rhetoric, that tiller was a murderer. the killer, in the guise of answering to a higher authority (no, not hebrew national) felt the need to take the law into his own hands, and acted as judge, jury and executioner. i agree that making a legal connection between the two would be difficult, but words do have consequences, and who knows the degree of influence a person like o'reilly night have.
in that case, he might be complicit.
your straw man about palin's daughters was interesting; i had to stop and think a bit about it. the fact is that letterman never said that the daughter should be raped; he said she was "knocked up"...never making the statement that the sex act was or was not consensual.
if one of palin's daughters ended up being "knocked up by alex rodriguez" i suppose that might make letterman complicit, but only as a potential godfather to the child...-
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quicksilver06026 months, 2 weeks ago
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Exactly, DR.
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Gehlady asked, "Would no on-air personality be able to express a strong opinion of opposition to the actions of a specific person?"
The point is understood and OF COURSE NOT. However, it's about understanding the audience. If one understands his or her comments may directly incite hatemongers to take murderous actions, than he or she should consider this with every utterance.
And no, I'm not suggesting that Limbaugh, Beck or O'Reilly are intentionally inciting violence but to those who are violent, in thier minds, the meaning is bastardized into justification and an urge for action.
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Goppy6 months, 2 weeks ago
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Bill O'Reilly is an opportunist who manipulates his audience for ratings ... and the resultant monetary gains.
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People like O'Reilly have been around for ages ... nihilists who are paid handsomely for their nihilism.
For instance - what is the most divisive issue in America today? One might say abortion.
The Right DEMANDS that the rest of the nation agree with them as to when life begins. The Left do not want to go back to the back alley abortion days in which women died.
Essentially, the Right wants a Prohibition on Abortion. They are this era's Temperance Crusaders ... with their very own Carry Nation.
And continuing the metaphor ... Bill O'Reilly sought to 'Gin Up' his ratings by excoriating Dr. Tiller in his broadcast no less than 27 times - - - -
- - - - usually referring to him as Dr. Tiller the Baby Killer.
Now ... he goes on air and washes his hands of Dr. Tiller's execution.
This is one of the notable benchmarks of the Modern Republican ... their desire to be held UNACCOUNTABLE for their actions.
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It's a kind of Moral Vacancy.
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donald516 months, 2 weeks ago
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Geh, would you think differently if the only show Tiller's killer ever watched is O'Reilly, his hero?
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How about O'Reilly saying a kid is better off with a pedophile than with his own family... as another example of his corruption and encouragement of corruption!
Letterman is a comedian... while O'Reilly says he's in the business of explaining news on the "Fair & Balanced" network..... a vaste difference that you obviously can't grasp!
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marahnatha6 months, 2 weeks ago
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Maybe because all during the Vietnam War our soldiers and their supporters were called "baby killers" by the left? We also have read Saul Alinski. We know how you think.
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It was only natural to call actual baby killers, "baby killers."
Maybe because anybody that doesn't agree with the homosexual political agenda is called "homophobic?" Anyone that disagrees with Obama's policy is labeled "racist?" Every
once in a while one of you slips like Kramer (Michael Richards) did and is discarded because he is no longer useful to you.-
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marahnatha6 months, 2 weeks ago
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It's not a reach at all. Most pro-lifers came out of the peace movement and/or the so called "feminist" movement when both became extremist by the use of violence on the side of the "peace" movement by throwing bricks and bottles at law officers and National Guardsmen and by the glorification of violence against the fetus by the women's movement who totally rejected the Christian teachings of Susan B Anthony for the atheistic teachings of hyper-racist Margaet Sanger and the embrace of the "goddess" whose statues they sell on their website.
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Every culture that has embraced the "goddess" ended up killing children, whether by throwing them into a volcano or in a "sophisticated" society like ours, doing it out of sight.
You can't validate the use of a tactic by one side and then not like it when the "other side" uses it.-
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donald516 months, 2 weeks ago
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Mar, I was spit on in uniform during Vietnam, but I still have to admit that Lt Calley was a baby killer, and proven so!
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Free fire zones didn't care who lived in them too! Repugs also don't give much of a darn about collateral damage!
My own father has admitted court martialing a lieutenant in his FDC who let rounds fall on a Vietnamese mother and baby!
Finally, Not all folks on the left held that position too.... but, you can go ahead and believe so in your polarized mind!
Want some truth that would change your mind, if you can open it at all? Read Herbert's book, "Soldier, " when he was an Infantry Battalion Commander in Nam (he was also the most decorated enlisted man out of Korea), or "A Bright & Shinig Lie," by Sheehan. If you have the baalls to state wrong facts... why not have the baalls to get them right for the rest of your life? -
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jordan116 months, 2 weeks ago
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Yes, it's a reach. In the first place, you assume that one segment of society called vets "baby killers." And that is BS. NO ONE that I knew in that time called vets "baby killers." NO ONE. But let me say this; you just identified yourself as one of the far right extremists. Your 'reach' to find company from the left is understandable, under those circimstances.
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CRYMTYPHON6 months, 2 weeks ago
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The lie that the American Left went around spitting on our soldiers and calling them names, was made up by conservatives who dodged the draft so others could fight while they stayed home and waved a flag.
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There are plenty of vietnam vets on Propeller;
and some of them don't take kindly those who prostitute the war to puff themselves up like a red, white and blue puffer fish.
Some advice: Maranatha means 'may the lord come soon';
if he does, don't let him catch you lying '.
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Goppy6 months, 2 weeks ago
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What I find interesting is the role reversal of the 'youth-rebellion' movement of the 60's and the 'social-conservative-movement' of today.
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Back in the 60's - anger towards an unjust, indefensible war and anger towards the inflexibility towards Civil Rights ... led many to violence to achieve their ends.
Today - you have the Right Wing ... with their Audacious Self Righteousness ... for whom demonstrations (tea parties) ... murder (Dr. Tiller) ... and bombings (Oklahoma) are justified as acts of "Civil Disobedience".
But put another way ... these are angry people who parade as opponents to Tyrannical Government ... but who desire ... TYRANNICAL RULE.
In essence ... they want to create a society where THEIR Self Righteousness defines the social landscape.
The only problem is ... this movement is continually defined by the hypocrisy of the movement.
As when ... Newt Gingrich pillories Bill Clinton's sexual adultery ... while Newt himself is engaging in adultery with a much younger woman.
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deathray6 months, 2 weeks ago
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i certainly agree that the right wing anti-government movement is interesting when juxtaposed with the left wing counter-culture movements of the 1960's...in fact, isn't it likely that some of the members of the latter have become the most vocal members of the former?
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Goppy6 months, 2 weeks ago
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Excellently phrased.
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I guess the difference ... from my perspective is this.
The Counter-Culture movement of the 60's had as it's goal ... the end of a war ... and Civil Rights for ALL Americans.
The Culture War of today ... has as it's goal ... the suppression of individual rights and freedoms of Women, Homosexuals, the non-Religious.
Not to mention that part and parcel of their efforts include such morally reprehensible stances as being opposed to children gaining access to Health Care ... and Criminalizing Seniors for daring to cross into Canada for cheaper meds.
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It's a Culture War alright ... a Culture War waged by Culture-LESS people.
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donald516 months, 2 weeks ago
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death, I can see a lot who wanted May Jane legalized in their earlier years would love the federal government out of the issue... as Repugs can find it easier and cheaper to buy politicians at the state level - hence, the bogus argument for state rights!!
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splitrch6 months, 2 weeks ago
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"As when ... Newt Gingrich pillories Bill Clinton's sexual adultery ... while Newt himself is engaging in adultery with a much younger woman."
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Goppy, if that was the worst of it the world would be a much better place.
The Republicans thought they DESERVED to rule after Reagan. Like somehow the deified one was the best President ever. He is probably somewhere in the lower middle of the pack.
They we're ****** that Clinton won but it was their fault for splitting the ticket in 1992. Ever since they have been making the country pay for their anger. What we are dealing with now are the results of Republican Rule. I just hope Obama isn't too influenced by the desire for "bipartisanship." They lost the election and now we have to bring things back to an equilibrium. Congress - are you paying attention?-
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donald516 months, 2 weeks ago
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Newt is small compared to DeLay's proclaiming the Saipan sweat shops as a model of free interprise to get that "Made In America" tag. The sweat shops with forced prostitution and forced abortion!
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Newt and Abramoff working together in Saipan led to Abramoff taking American Indians for 82 million! Illegal Redistricting for Delay was small cakes too!
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marahnatha6 months, 2 weeks ago
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Is the whole environmental movement guilty for the killings of the Unibomber? I didn't kill Kennedy in the 60's and I didn't kill Tiller. Five abortionists have been killed since Roe v Wade. Only Paul Hill had an active role in the pro life movement and nobody defended what he did or protested his imprisonment. This is the reason we left the peace movement and NOW in droves, we are not for murder or throwing bricks for that matter, at any living thing.
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We do retain the same legitimate right to peaceful protest as the left. If it was legitimate to show pictures of the horrors of war and the number of coffins coming home, (something that is never shown now that Obama is Commander in Chief) or for PETA to tape packing plants,it is legitimate to show the horrors of abortion and how the institution covers up for child rape and even performed an abortion on a woman who was obviously being pressured by a boyfriend to have it done. We too are Americans and we too have First Amendment rights. We have not taken the law into our own hands and we do not condone the killing of Tiller.-
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lfergie8126 months, 2 weeks ago
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What you say would have meaning if not for the fact your conservative talking heads and party members are calling our setting president a terrorist supporting terrorism. These nuts as you call them are only doing what they feel his group wants done and with their beliefs they sure aren't liberals.
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lfergie8126 months, 2 weeks ago
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I believe calling them the party of law and order is a stretch. I have yet to see in my life time a Republican president that did not engage in unlawful acts of some kind. Going back to Eisenhower and his removal of an elected leader and plan to invade Cuba, to Nixon and his "I am not a crook" which was proven false, to Reagan and the Iran Contra scandal which included Bush number one, to the present day torture embarrassment of his son. Maybe Ford comes out fairly clean but his pardon of Nixon puts doubt on his integrity.
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What I have a problem with is their supposedly fight for less government intervention in peoples lives and business while demanding the government stop what they disapprove of. -
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Goppy6 months, 2 weeks ago
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I personally believe that ... when the Jerry Falwell movement joined forces with the so called 'Republican Revolution' back in the day ... it was the birth of an American Taliban.
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It didn't have to turn out that way ... but when Morally Vacant Hypocrites and Power Hungry Politicos take over a movement ... Extremism is usually the result.
The Activist Christian Conservative movement has many similar elements to the Taliban that arose in Afghanistan.
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marahnatha6 months, 2 weeks ago
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God doesn't "forgive everything." And even for things he does forgive, there's still a need for restitution and punishment. God says that as much as possible, live peacefully with all men (people.) The guy that killed Tiller, the guy that killed the guard at the Holocaust Museum and the guy that killed the soldier in Arkansas are guilty of murder. They deserve imprisonment and in my opinion the death penalty if they receive it after a fair trial.
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GWHayduke6 months, 2 weeks ago
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That is no doubt the truth.
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The Tiller murder has perpetuated the concept of righteousness over rule of law.
Look at what is happening with the confirmation process for Judge Sotomayor.
By all reasonable accounts, this is a moderate judge with a long history of upholding the laws of this country, appointed to the District Bench by GHW Bush, but now she has suddenly become a 'radical racist'?
Its absurd the obstructionist and destructive efforts being levied against this country by an increasingly diminished ideology simply to gain back the power that has been lost as a result of the democratic process.
Legitimizing illegal actions in favor of religious righteousness is the process that brought Mullahs and Clerics into power in Iran, Afghanistan and other radically conservative, oppressive countries. -
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marahnatha6 months, 2 weeks ago
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I personally believe that ... when the Jerry Falwell movement joined forces with the so called 'Republican Revolution' back in the day ... it was the birth of an American Taliban.
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What you believe personally has no basis in fact. Have you visited any of the training camps with the monkey bars the Christian Conservatives are using to practice beheading?
Have you had any missles blow up your Unitarian Antichrist Center or Planned Parenthood
establishment?
It didn't have to turn out that way ... but when Morally Vacant Hypocrites
You mean the "peace" activists like Bill Ayres or Tiller's "Pastor?"
Power Hungry Politicos take over a movement ... Extremism is usually the result.
Yeah, like bailouts of banks, big Corporations and bankrupt Democratic states while professing to care for the poor?
The Activist Christian Conservative movement has many similar elements to the Taliban that arose in Afghanistan.
Name five.-
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donald516 months, 2 weeks ago
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mara, how about 4 repug supreme court judges who voted last year to throw out 800 years of accepted western law - habeas corpus. The same judges who support the unitary executive where Dumya would have been supreme over the judiciary and legislative? Of course they don't back the UE now with a dem in charge! Among Scalia, Roberts, Thomas & Alito we also have Thomas an outspken proponent of torture.
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Only presidential candidate to run based on changing the Constituion - Huckabee!
Only Pres to call the Constitution :just a piece of paper" - DUMYA
Such unprecedented hypocrisy from the right!
Oh yes, the innocnet Iraqis and Afghans killed by US missiles surely satisfies your question.... why Dumya said nothing when israeli missiles killed innocents in the Gaza or Lebanon. Or when, for the first time, Dumya, authorized our milirtary to kill by hellfire missiles from drones which can't verify "eyes on target", even in Yemen. -
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EDWARDIII6 months, 2 weeks ago
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The Times exposes itself again as a mouthpiece for the democratic party. To equate opposition to the radical socialistic tendency of the current administration with anarchic terrorism is just a strategy to create a one-party system.
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Goppy6 months, 2 weeks ago
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I don't quite know what it's like to view the world in such black and white terms, EDWARDIII.
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And I don't think I'd be better for learning how to do that.
Your 'canned, knee-jerk' assessment of teh New York Times being a mouth-piece for the Democratic Party loses all steam when one considers that William Crystal was their OpEd writer of record ... until recently leaving.
As you may or may not know ... William Crystal is a founding member of the Modern Neo-Conservative movement - and a staunch supporter of every right wing effort of the past 20 years.
His replacement, although not as yet interwoven in the most extreme ... (sick) ... philosophy of the Neo-Cons ... is nevertheless ... a Conservative by any stretch.
His name is Andrew Rosenthal.
Perhaps you haven't read the Times and are unfamiliar with the variety of opinion therein.
This is a common condition for Modern American Conservatives ... as they work and play in a world of stereotypes and un-thinking 'code' ... supplied to them by the myriad Right Wing sources of 'Group-Speak'.
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tadair9196 months, 2 weeks ago
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perhaps he should have said, "mouthpiece for the establishment." the mantra is 'we tell you what we want you to believe. once its printed, it immediately becomes objective fact. so don't rock the boat or scratch beneath the surface.' whatever keeps the house of cards in tact.
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marahnatha6 months, 2 weeks ago
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The New York Times has been caught deliberately lying. They published the story of a Koran being flushed down the toilet at Gitmo, causing a great upheaval against the US in doing so & it was all a lie. How stupid do you have to be to believe a magazine, much less a whole book, can be flushed down a toilet?
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The New York Times published a story on Donald Rumsfeld with not only his summer house, but his address and the actual entrance to his home. You don't think they had an evil motive? Bill O'Reilly would never do that, and he is an Independant, not a Republican.
They printed pictures of the weekly deaths of all Americans the whole time Dubya was President & have probably stopped since Obama is President, I don't know because I wouldn't spendd a nickel on that paper to find out. They've lost many, many subscribers because you can't believe what they say.
For the record, I read the Washington Post and the Washington Times.
Dan Rather lost his job because he lied for ideologic purposes, as he should have been. I have no reason to ever listen to him again.-
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donald516 months, 2 weeks ago
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mara, the bigot, how about Dumya's minions feeding Judith Miller of the Times all those bio warfare lies that were also published in the times as leadup to invading Iraq!
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Rather's postion on Dumya's military record has not been refuted... he was let go only because he didn't have the absolute proof before going forward!
How about Fox repetitionof lies: Sadam WMD, Sadam links to OBL, we'd be greeted as liberators, the oil would pay for the war, Mission Accomplished...and then trashing anyone who diagreed with Dumya: Kofi & Tom Daschle for calling Dumya a war criminal, Joe Wilson and his outed CIA wife, the dixie chicks, the French and fires, Kerry, Gore, that Marine Major who was on the UN inspection team,... and so many more true, honest Americans!
No greater ideologues than Dumya and his neocons who hired incompetent people and only ideologues (good job, brownie! Gonzo, Rummy, and fellow liar- Condi)!
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EDWARDIII6 months, 2 weeks ago
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I'll go item for item with you and see who has the more complex outlook. I blog here to support the views of the few conservatives who have the guts to stand up in this left-of-center forum. You don't have any Idea where I stand on any but a few issues. I see that you have a tendency to start your comments with personal insults of one sort or another. Either that is a sophistic device or you really have contempt for anyone who disagrees with you. Either way it brands YOU.
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And variety of opinion has declined in the Times since Bush's first term. You find that healthy perhaps.
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donald516 months, 2 weeks ago
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OK, its Nick Kristof and he still writes erroneous right wing (NEOCON) editorials twice a week for the TIMES! He should have been fired for his exagerations, distortions and lies; but, the Times is obviously tolerating him to demonstrate a level of balance - where fox fails regularly! Even Colmes finally gave up on the hanity bigotry and hatred show!
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slate6 months, 2 weeks ago
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I went to see the 3D ultrasound of my 28 week mass of tissue Thursday. What a cute little guy, you should have seen him smiling the little embryo of nonviable tissue.
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Nahh killing one of those is killing an actual baby or having blood on you hands, you can sleep the deep sleep of the innocent, night night and God bless us everyone.-
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marahnatha6 months, 2 weeks ago
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people see what they want to see, slate
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Exactly. The Dred Scott case saw people as property, not human beings
because it was to their advantage to do so. Abortion is big business. If George Tiller was say, selling marijuana at a ridiculously high price, he would be called a "materialistic pig." He was doing a procedure that cost between $220 and $320 for $5,000 and was lauded as a "hero" who "cared deeply" for women in trouble, yet he donated no time at a "free clinic."
And the left wonders why nobody wants to listen to them on
Air America or the NY Times while Fox News is getting higher and higher ratings.-
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lfergie8126 months, 2 weeks ago
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There goes the straw man scenario again. Dr. Tiller was a medical doctor that was qualified to practice medicine. If he was preforming illegal acts he would have been shut down, arrested, and put in jail. Just because you disagree with what he did does not give you or anyone else the right to take the law in your own hands and commit murder. Say what you want about his business but he has been reported to have provide needed services for women (not just abortion) without regard for compensation.
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Personally, I don't agree with all abortions but I feel that it is not my decision to make for other people. Maybe it is better for a woman to have the abortion than to have a child that will be exposed to elements than breed criminals. Again, that is not my decision to make and I don't believe it's anyone's but the prospective mother.-
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CRYMTYPHON6 months, 2 weeks ago
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Dr. Tiller had been shot before.
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He had grown used to threats; to vandalizm,
to national tirades on why he should die.
He did not want to die.
He hired guards, he had security.
But he did not hide.
He was shot where he was every sunday;
ushering in church.
Why did he do it?
Why give your life if you don't want to die?
He said why.
Because a womans' body was a woman's right to rule.
He's gone;
The clinic is closed;
The words remain.
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Ciera-Marie6 months, 2 weeks ago
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And the left wonders why nobody wants to listen to them on
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Air America or the NY Times while Fox News is getting higher and higher ratings."
And yet you claim and believe that the writers, reportes?, and "big names" on Fox -O' Reily, Limbaugh, Coulter for starters bear no responsibility for the lies they say, the hate the incite. 'Cause it's free speech right? Unless it was Franken when he was on Air America, or Ed Schultz, etc. Then they should be investigated, fired, have charges brought against them.
Sorry but the Repubilican radio and tv hosts bear part of the blame.
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pokydoke6 months, 2 weeks ago
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You seem to be under the impression as usual that pro choice means pro abortion. That is just not true, there are many reasons to abort a pregnancy and I don't think that you or anyone else has the right to tell a mother what she can and cannot do, it's between her and her doctor. Congrats on the new baby by the way.
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slate6 months, 2 weeks ago
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Sure there are many reasons to abort, if you've been keeping up I've stated those reasons. However I want as few as can be (since contraception is a much easier form of not getting pregnant). The pro-choice argument is that what's inside a woman is just a mass of tissue, essentially making the pro-choice so much easier (if it's only mass of tissue).
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pokydoke6 months, 2 weeks ago
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I think that's the goal of most people. I disagree with you on the mass of tissue though. A viable fetus will eventually become a viable human being. One must temper their thinking with the fact that there is not a shortage of human beings, at all. I have asked this question to many anti-choice people before. How many unwanted children have you adopted? Occasionally someone will respond that they have one or several adopted children but mostly I hear crickets.
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DenCuddy6 months, 2 weeks ago
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Well, you can't have it both ways Slate, if the republicans would believe in birth control, I'd say you would have a better argument. As it is, the GOP wants abstinace or nothing, too bad it doesn't work well in the real world, or even Alaska. Congrats on the baby!
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Beau78906 months, 2 weeks ago
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slate, the argument that "what's inside a woman is just a mass of tissue" is not the only pro-choice argument, nor is it the strongest, in my opinion. As you say, there are often many reasons to abort even if one believes the fetus is a baby--for example, if the life of the mother is at stake if she carries the fetus to term. Then it becomes a decision of whose rights outweigh whose.
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I know I've also seen at least one comment from you saying that regardless of whether one considers the fetus a life, current law allows abortion.
That gets brings us back to one of deathray's points: that those who would kill or commit illegal acts in order to shut legal providers of abortion down are disregarding U.S. law in favor of a "higher" law, namely "Thou shalt not kill."
And it also gets back to one of the points of the article: that so many right-wing commentators today feed into an apocalyptic urgency that may lead extremist groups to seek illegal means to defend what they see as God's law. -
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LumFan6 months, 2 weeks ago
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Slate, you also have to realize that the Operation Rescue-types also want to ban things like contraception and sex-ed that mentions anything other than abstinence. Ever hear of "The Pill Kills"? Heck, they are even hostile to condoms. (Huge failure rates to one of the items that actually works against AIDS.)
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GWHayduke6 months, 2 weeks ago
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Thank you for the sermon, Reverend.
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Although I disagree with abortion and could never see myself / wife / girlfriend going through with the procedure, I do respect the laws of this country.
God bless the law abiding citizens of this country.-
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slate6 months, 2 weeks ago
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Yeppers it's the law of the land and I'd rather have legal abortion over back alley one's. Of course you miss the point I was making because you were too busy listening to the left here taking turns up on the pulpit and saying AMEN there Decon Duke.
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deathray6 months, 2 weeks ago
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by the way slate, i wish you a happy, healthy kid once he's born; you're clearly going to be a great dad.
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the only issue i'd take with you "blob of flesh" story is that at 23 weeks, it's 6 months or so along, which is later than i would typically agree with a termination. most people typically believe in abortion in the first trimester. -
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lfergie8126 months, 2 weeks ago
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Slate, I have raised four daughters that have given birth to my eight grandchildren. During their life there was never a time when abortion was mentioned because none of them gave birth until at least a year after they were married. With that said, if any of them had gotten pregnant, they would have had the baby if they wish because I could not care less about what the neighbors would think. By the same token, if they chose to not have the baby, that would have been their choice because there again I could not care less what the neighbors would think. I most certainly would sit down and have a long talk with them but I would still respect their decision if they chose to abort. With that being said, my oldest granddaughter is expecting and I know exactly how you feel. Congratulations.
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smithichie6 months, 2 weeks ago
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Slate, what would you do if instead of a healthy DEVELOPING baby, those scans instead showed a developing baby with little to no brain, or organs developing on the outside? Do you realize some of the developmental tests only can be done in the third trimester?
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Dr. Tiller believed it was medically unethical to provide a woman with a test and then not provide her the means to do anything, which is why he performed late term abortions.
Would you guilt trip your daughter if she chose to terminate in the third trimester because she didn't think she was up to the challange of a 'special needs' child? Have you experienced the joy of when a 'special needs' child has grown large enough and violent enough to place the parents life in actual danger?
Personally, I don't blame women who decide they are not up to it and frankly don't think it's anyone's business but her's and her doctor's.-
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slate6 months, 2 weeks ago
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Slate, what would you do if instead of a healthy DEVELOPING baby, those scans instead showed a developing baby with little to no brain, or organs developing on the outside? Do you realize some of the developmental tests only can be done in the third trimester?
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I've already voiced my opinion on said matter before, I'm too tired and this thread too old to do so again.
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donald516 months, 2 weeks ago
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slate, what if it was a medical critical choice beetween the mother or the child, you fool? You would eliminate any choice at all for this women and her body - sounds rather dictatorial of you, slate.... but you like torture and preemptive war too!
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slate6 months, 2 weeks ago
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slate, what if it was a medical critical choice beetween the mother or the child, you fool? You would eliminate any choice at all for this women and her body - sounds rather dictatorial of you, slate.... but you like torture and preemptive war too!
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If IF was skiff we could all take a ride Donna, and it seems you arlready have a ticket on the crazy train,,,,,,,, all aboard.
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k9kssr6 months, 2 weeks ago
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Slate,
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Congratulations are in order for your blob of 28 week old tissue!! I remember the 3D ultrasound of my daughter's blob at that stage of development with what is now my 12 month old granddaughter. In the ultrasound she had her little blobs of tissue divided into what resembled human hands folded against the side of what appeared to be a face (complete with eyes, nose and tiny rosebud mouth). Strangely, after her birth and she became a "real" person with certain rights, she slept the same way!! Amazing! -
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gamahuche6 months, 2 weeks ago
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Krugman shines, as usual..
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FTA:
But this doesn’t change the broad picture, which is that supposedly respectable news organizations and political figures are giving aid and comfort to dangerous extremism.
What will the consequences be? Nobody knows, of course, although the analysts at Homeland Security fretted that things may turn out even worse than in the 1990s — that thanks, in part, to the election of an African-American president, “the threat posed by lone wolves and small terrorist cells is more pronounced than in past years.”
And that’s a threat to take seriously. Yes, the worst terrorist attack in our history was perpetrated by a foreign conspiracy. But the second worst, the Oklahoma City bombing, was perpetrated by an all-American lunatic. Politicians and media organizations wind up such people at their, and our, peril.
******
I think its the utter RECKLESSNESS of the people who are willing to channel hatred at whatever their perceived "opposite" nemesis that frightens me the most..
Its much more extreme than it is in most parts of Europe. I can go into a shop in my small town and have a chat with the owner and he'll ask me a very direct question; I'll respond to him with me passionate opinion - for example re the proposed "missile shield" here - and when I ask his opinion and its the exact opposite we almost fall over laughing because the human relationship is so much more significant than the "idealism"..
The US, in my experience, has almost always been much more segregated into interest groups and the differences between people, rather than being seen as marvellous diversity are instead seen as threats. The person with the contrary opinion is rapidly cast as "the other". When "the other" IS extremely different - e.g. Obama as the first black President - its simply too much for many people to deal with and they revert into some infantile mode of "yah boo sucks" - we hate EVERYTHING about him - he holds his blackberry in the wrong hand it probably means that he wipes witht he wrong one too..
Our tiny "new democracy" remains part of a culture that has had to survive hundreds of years of foreign rule and domination and though its still a work-in-progress to get up to speed with 20th Century Europe its survival was ensured by the solidarity between individuals of great diversity despite their invading occupiers' attempts to divide and rule. Of course the holocaust happened here too but some of the targets survived and I see one of them every day when I look in the mirror.-
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Goppy6 months, 2 weeks ago
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You are glossing over the Waco thing.
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McVeigh saw the Government as an oppressive institution.
This sentiment mirrors exactly the motivation of the Tea-Party folks - who complain about taxes ... but nevertheless ... take every advantage of government largesse.
In addition, McVeigh was an ardent reader of right wing extremist publications such as the Turner Diaries ... written by Neo-NAZI William Pierce.
It should be no surprise that McVeigh chose FOX News to be the recipient of a letter whereby he attempted to justify his attack on the Federal Building. ... (He chose Rita Cosby to send the letter to.)
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Ciera-Marie6 months, 2 weeks ago
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Again McVeigh and Nichols by G W Bush and Cheneys definition and the definition of terrorist were homegrown terrorists. There was more than the triggering of Waco (Terrorist / Cult.). You forgot to mention Ruby Ridge. (Ruby Ridge another homegrown terrorist/religious fanatic.). It was not just about the FBI.
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beavith16 months, 2 weeks ago
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he offers his personal opinion and you guys buy it.
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he won his nobel for some arcane work he did in the early 1980s. he's never risen to that level of impact again, yet, because he has a column in the NYT, his opinion means something more than the talking heads on Fox or MSNBC?
people: challenge authority.
LOL! mainstream? Keynesianism? lemming much? it doesn't hold a straw of credibility and is a fast track to dynamiting our currency. that being said, it makes me happy that you guys have taken the bait hook, line and sinker.
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lloydm656 months, 2 weeks ago
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GWHayduke> This is not a law,but an edict hand down by old men.Besides roe v Wade of today was not what we had in seventy three.At this rate of progression,by the year twenty,twenty we could have post birth abortions,you know to make sure it's really wanted.Wouldn't take much of a change in law.Just declare that life begins at day,one,two,or three.As long as we keep it between the doctor,and the mother.Husbands are already denied a part in the decision.
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GWHayduke6 months, 2 weeks ago
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Not a Doctor are you?
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Not exposed to perinatology, huh?
There are some ghastly conditions created in this ever-expanding population of ours. External and internal factors have caused humans to see a dramatic increase of diseases, mutations, syndromes and chromosomal anomalies across the board.
Forcing a woman to carry a non-viable baby to term on some moral high ground is nothing more than crass piousness.
As for your 'theory' concerning post birth abortions or an increase in performing the procedure - you really should learn more - abortion has been in steady decline.
http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,184...
Still too many, I agree, but many are absolutely necessary.-
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marahnatha6 months, 2 weeks ago
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Nobody in the pro-life movement asks that non-viable babies (meaning babies that have died) be carried nine months. We don't consider DS babies or any other adoptable babies non-viable because the biological parent(s) don't have the finances or inclination to raise them themselves.
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Abortions were allowable in 1973 before Roe v Wade for rape, incest or for the mother's life. Nobody advocated for the death of a woman to bring a baby to term.
The whole Roe v Wade case was a sham. When you have to beat the bushes to flush out a "victim" you can use to make a case, there aren't that many "victims."-
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bruhaha6 months, 2 weeks ago
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"Abortions were allowable in 1973 before Roe v Wade for rape, incest or for the mother's life. Nobody advocated for the death of a woman to bring a baby to term."
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Except for those who continue to try to pass laws prohibiting abortion even in cases of rape, incest, or for the life the mother.
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smithichie6 months, 2 weeks ago
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Mine and my ex's last pregnacy was unwanted. Do you think I should have been able to override her decision for what I would have done?
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I would have opted for an abortion. She opted for adoption. Silly me, I supported her decision since I figured it's her body.
A man's decision time is when he is deciding who to have sex with and what sort of protection to take. If he is afraid of having a potential child aborted he should only sleep with pro-life or anti-choice women, he should discuss these issues before sex and he should be in charge of his own sexual protection.
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marahnatha6 months, 2 weeks ago
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It all goes back to Abraham Lincoln accusing Harriet Beecher Stowe, asking, "Are you the lady that started this (Civil) war?" for writing "Uncle Tom's Cabin." How many African Americans who think for themselves have been accused of being "Uncle Toms" for not making themselves useful idiots?
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For the record, there are plenty of tree-hugging Conservatives. We like animals too, we just don't use it as an excuse to have our pictures taken naked for a group of people who condone ********** and killing of "unwanted" animals like PETA does. -
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Goppy6 months, 2 weeks ago
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The Modern Republican cannot abide perspective.
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Theirs is a tunnel vision.
That's why they never waiver.
They claim consistency and moral fortitude ...
When actually, their tunnel vision prevents them from seeing any other direction.
So straight ahead they go ... oblivious to all other perspectives ...
... they are ... for visual explanation ... the movie ... "Doctor Strangelove" ... now imagine Slim Pickens ... astraddle an "A" Bomb ... blissfully straight into oblivion.
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Poulenc6 months, 2 weeks ago
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I'm not certain that extreme acts of violence are finally attributable to doctrinairism, right or left.
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The guys who kill abortion doctors or fire in places like the Hollocaust Museum are serious nut jobs.
Ideology may fuel their craziness, even "justify" their actions to those doing the heinous deeds, but, finally, what they do transcends partisanship.
Their acts are those of people who kill because they're mental cases--not righties or lefties.-
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deathray6 months, 2 weeks ago
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...except that they are rational enough to premditate their actions, some of which require enough planning that the insanity defense could never apply.
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i believe dr. tiller's murderer to be an example of this
here's a a chart depicting group on group crimes in 2007, cross indexed. it's an eye opener:
http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2009/05/13/opini...
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deathray6 months, 2 weeks ago
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in case anyone is interested, here's a related article that night help clarify things:
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Is Racist Hate Republican or Democratic?
http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/06/12/we...
fta:
"As was Doug J. at Balloon Juice. “How many acts of right-wing terrorism have to occur before DHS is allowed to start keeping track of it?” he asks. “I really don’t get the conservative reaction to the original DHS pronouncement. No one is trying to lump angry Red State commenters in with honest-to-God terrorists…except, weirdly enough, the Red State commenters themselves. There are crazy people out there shooting up abortion clinics and Holocaust museums. These people identify with causes normally described as right-wing. Deal with it. Tea bag away to your heart’s content. It’s not til you start plotting to kill people that DHS should take an interest. If anyone starts spying on you prior to that, then I, the ACLU, and dirty hippies everywhere will support your grievances.”-
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deathray6 months, 2 weeks ago
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here's another quote from another perspective, same article:
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Paul Campos at Lawyers, Guns and Money, however, feels that several recent violent events point up a hypocrisy of Homeland Security efforts:
If radical Muslims had carried out terrorist attacks in Kansas and Washington DC over the past five days, we might be trying to pass legislation giving the president the legal authority to place people in preventive detention, and Daniel Pipes would be implying that we need to round up Arab-Americans (correction: Muslims) and put them in relocation camps.
But it was only a couple of old white guys, so our civil liberties remain unthreatened.
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jimdoze6 months, 2 weeks ago
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How amazing!
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A left wing economist is trotting out the au courant left-wing talking point that conservatives are linked to dangerous extremists. I find it truly amazing how far afield left-wing economists will stray.
Is it surprising to anyone that Salon just ran the same story by Glenn Greenwald? I wonder how many other pundits are running with the same story in "Mainstream Media" outlets this weekend?
It looks an awful lot like a concerted effort to put a jackboot on the throat of conservative dissent.-
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CRYMTYPHON6 months, 2 weeks ago
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Hi JimDoze!
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Saw your delayed comment about how doubting you and bush
about the Iraq war was responsible for killing our soldiers!
That was hate speech.
But if it is any comfort,
- I doubt it moved anybody. Too long, and not exactly convincing.
Probably not, anyway.
If you are worried about me though I will watch for strangers with really old guns.-
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jimdoze6 months, 2 weeks ago
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Crym, you are twisting my words.
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If you truly believe that open, full-throated dissent has absolutely nothing to do with deaths of American soldiers in the line of fire, you are clueless about assymetric warfare.
Furthermore, I said in that post that I do not condemn such activity because that is the price we pay for an open society. But, that does not make what I said any less true.
For the benefit of those who may have missed that post, I will re-iterate what I believe to be true... that there is at least as clear a link between that dissent and American service deaths as there is between conservative talk and extremist terror within our country.-
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CRYMTYPHON6 months, 2 weeks ago
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That's very clear .
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Dissent kills soldiers,
but you do not condemn it, because that is the price we
pay for an open society.
That is wrong, - but it is clear.
Speak as you wish against President Obama;
it will not influence Al Qaeda one bit.
Our soldiers are safe from your dissent;
in fact, they are safer for it.
But as for hate talk in the US,
and who gets moved to blow someone else away,
- that also is clear.
Calls to rise up and kill
encourage people to rise up and kill.
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CRYMTYPHON6 months, 2 weeks ago
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Perhaps you are right.
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Perhaps your bringing up the iraq war disent was an unfortunate
distraction.
I welcome the return to the subject!
Tiller was killed after years of
public discussion on the moral merit of killing him.
As well as minor matters like where he could be found
if you were to misinterpret the hypothetical nature of
the discussion and decide to go do it.
If that is not hate speech,
if that is not a call to kill kill kill ,
- what exactly does meet your criteria?
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donald516 months, 2 weeks ago
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Conservative dissent: a Texas governor wanting to secede, rebellion from OxyRush and hannity, Un-American claims from Bachmann of Minnesota, all repugs supporting no control on assault weapons, Faux Fox Facts telling folks to arm themselves.... Repug Suprem court judges voting to throw out habeas corpus and supporting torture... eavesdropping on Americans, a repug president outing a CIA agent and getting away with it...a repug president letting 911 happen than lying to let even more Americans die in Iraq, ... the list is so extensive of the continuing dissent and barrage on American values/laws.... from the true terrorist party of America and the world, the Repugs!
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CRYMTYPHON6 months, 2 weeks ago
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Hate is a human condition,no more of the left than the right.
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So is rage, anger, and all other illnesses of the heart.
They afflict us all.
Fortunately, so do love, charity and patience.
What use a political party finds for these
characteristics, - depends on what the party wants.
If your goal is to see a society without hungry children,
without homeless families, without young people economicly
damned for lack of oportunity,
- then your party has a use for your love and hope.
If your party's goal is to plant the flag in as many places
as possible,
to grind the nose of all oponents into the dust,
to mold all citizens into one figure of upright conformity,
- then your party has a use for your hate, your anger,
and your desire to sit in front of a tv and see who got
blown away today.
And each party will work, through tv or radio or speech
or slogan, to encourage these emotions.
Hope, love, tolerance, - these are spiritual treasures.
Democrats and liberals do not own them.
They belong to all Americans.
If the republicans reject them,
we will just hold onto them for a while.
A long while, perhaps.-
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GWHayduke6 months, 2 weeks ago
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Well said Crymty.
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Funny how conventional wisdom is seen as an "effort to put a jackboot on the throat of conservative dissent".
Apparently the conservative elites who brought us 8 years of war, countless deaths, an imploding economy and destroyed diplomatic relations, know better what is good for this country and its people. -
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thesatyr016 months, 2 weeks ago
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The true threat to this nation isn't terrorism,but the insanity of the Far Left. They just want a Communistic one party system where any one who voices dissent is tossed in the Gulag.
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All they do is insult and attempt to marginalized any one who doesn't walk in goose step with their suicidal agenda. The Far Left aren't Americans. They want to see America destroyed from the inside.
They will be the first ones up against the wall when the Revolution comes...or maybe second...after the lawyers.-
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CRYMTYPHON6 months, 2 weeks ago
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You are against insults,
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- and then insult anyone left of you?
against marginalization,
- and then tell us the left aren't even real Americans?
You aren't trying to make sense;
or argue for an opinion.
You are just sort of a propeller decoration;
a statue in a fountain,
its mouth open,
spouting.
What comes out of your mouth,
- is a matter of plumbing.
Nothing to do with you .
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merlin12466 months, 2 weeks ago
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I see the vicious back and forth here and am more convinced than ever that for America and its mangled and manacled Constitution to survive, both ruling parties must be put to the curb and replaced with political institutions that actually care about America, as a whole, and not this patchwork of warring constituencies that will ultimately lead to blood, and massive amounts of it, in our streets. BOTH parties are equally despicable in their own ways, and our children deserve better by having representation as the individuals they are. I look forward to the day when Neocons/Progressives are mere mentions in our history books.
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CRYMTYPHON6 months, 2 weeks ago
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With a 'poof' Merlin the magician appears.
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He shouts "You are arguing! Is that any way for adults to behave?
Is that the way for a democracy to find its voice?"
The debaters stare in silence a moment.
A Democrat and a Republican consider,
then simultaneously say,
"Yes?"
"Oh," says the wizard; "nevermind."
and disapears in a flash of smoke ! -
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