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Posted By Progressive 6 months, 2 weeks ago in Political NewsThe shameless fools whose Iraq folly empowered Iran's hard-liners are back, smearing Obama as an appeaser
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hyperbola6 months, 2 weeks ago
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They are desperate to keep americans dying to "protect" zionist crimes against humanity. Hard to believe any American would listen to such traitors.
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Our "Coup" in Iran?
http://www.propeller.com/story/2009/06/18/our-quot...
Why were the Lebanese elections regarded as a “crushing defeat” for Hizbullah and FPM and their allies? It was not because the final count of seats was substantially different from what it had been before, but because pre-election hype had made it seem as if the opposition was going to sweep into power. When the government retained its majority amid high turnout, this was declared to be a wonderful thing and proof of the vibrancy of Lebanese democracy, such as it is, even though in terms of the sheer number of votes cast the opposition garnered more support. Because of the sectarian balancing act that is required in Lebanese government, the larger vote tally won by the opposition translated into a minority of seats because of where those votes were cast. In the parallel universe in which most Western commentary on such things is written, this was a repudiation of the opposition and a triumph for freedom, etc., rather than being seen as something of a fluke of Lebanese parliamentary politics. I suppose flukes don’t lend themselves very well to propagandistic uses.....
Now let us turn to Iran. The pre-election hype was that the opposition candidate was enjoying a surge in support in the final weeks and stood a chance of forcing a run-off, if not actually beating the incumbent outright. Then, amid record-high turnout, the incumbent won handily and the opposition complained that it had been robbed. In other words, the hype in Lebanon was just hype and was shown to be such on election day, whereas it was God’s own truth in Iran. As the Leveretts argue in Politico today, Ahmadinejad’s official percentage of the vote is very close to his 2005 total against Rafsanjani. As it happens, this is true. Of course, this result was from the head-to-head run-off between two candidates, rather than the multi-candidate first round, but it is not necessarily impossible that a comparable percetange of a larger electorate backed Ahmadinejad in the first round as turnout increased....
Given all of this, the readiness with which almost everyone in the West seems to be accepting the “coup” explanation is rather worrisome. It is similar to the lockstep consensus on the “Iraqi threat” six years ago that made war all but inevitable, and it is similar to our political class’ certainty last year that Georgia was merely an innocent victim of “Russian aggression,” which has been found again and again to be false. The “coup” in Iran is becoming one of those things that “everyone knows,” and as we have seen more than a few times in the past the things that “everyone knows” are not always true. Moreover, this thing that “everyone knows” about the Iranian election is based on partial, sketchy and biased information–sound familiar?-
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hyperbola6 months, 2 weeks ago
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...Part of the “coup” argument is that America must not side against the Iranian people, and it is taken for granted that the people are on Mousavi’s side, because Mousavi’s claims of representing the majority are taken at face value and Mousavi’s side is sometimes simply identified as the side of The People. Were the situation reversed and Ahmadinejad supporters were the ones rioting, it is all but certain that no one would believe a word of their complaints. It is being called fascism when the police attack pro-Mousavi protesters, but you know that it would also be called fascism if it were Ahmadinejad’s people rioting in the streets rather than Mousavi’s, even if the positions of the two candidates were reversed exactly and their actions were identical....
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The “coup” argument is a consensus view that fits a lot of existing prejudices, allows us to reaffirm pleasant myths about the virtues of popular government (which we are supposed to believe would have yielded a good result, were it not for those meddling fraudsters), and provides an excuse for moralistic posturing in which we get to flaunt our enthusiasm for democracy mostly for our own satisfaction. I am increasingly skeptical that it describes the events of the last few days.
http://www.propeller.com/story/2009/06/18/our-quot...-
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Progressive6 months, 1 week ago
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Personally, I don't think it matters much whether Ahmadinejad or Mousavi won the election, since neither actually runs the country, but I wonder how the election results could be announced less than three hours after polls closed when paper ballots had to be counted.
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For what it's worth, I tend to give credence to the results as posted here, mindful of the caveats therewith :
http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2009/06/iranian-ele...-
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hyperbola6 months, 1 week ago
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Actually it is kind of amusing seeing all the Americans (and Israelis) supporting the Mullah's candidate (Musavi). After all, part of Ahmadinejad's popularity with "average" Iranians has been his outspoken criticism over his entire term of corrupt Mullahs.
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Here is an analysis from american mideast experts (and ex-NSC members) that hits the mark.
Ahmadinejad won. Get over it
http://www.propeller.com/story/2009/06/18/ahmadine...
Without any evidence, many U.S. politicians and “Iran experts” have dismissed Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad’s reelection Friday, with 62.6 percent of the vote, as fraud.
They ignore the fact that Ahmadinejad’s 62.6 percent of the vote in this year’s election is essentially the same as the 61.69 percent he received in the final count of the 2005 presidential election, when he trounced former President Ali Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani. The shock of the “Iran experts” over Friday’s results is entirely self-generated, based on their preferred assumptions and wishful thinking.
...Like much of the Western media, most American “Iran experts” overstated Mir Hossein Mousavi’s “surge” over the campaign’s final weeks. More important, they were oblivious — as in 2005 — to Ahmadinejad’s effectiveness as a populist politician and campaigner. American “Iran experts” missed how Ahmadinejad was perceived by most Iranians as having won the nationally televised debates with his three opponents — especially his debate with Mousavi.
Before the debates, both Mousavi and Ahmadinejad campaign aides indicated privately that they perceived a surge of support for Mousavi; after the debates, the same aides concluded that Ahmadinejad’s provocatively impressive performance and Mousavi’s desultory one had boosted the incumbent’s standing. Ahmadinejad’s charge that Mousavi was supported by Rafsanjani’s sons — widely perceived in Iranian society as corrupt figures — seemed to play well with voters.
Similarly, Ahmadinejad’s criticism that Mousavi’s reformist supporters, including Khatami, had been willing to suspend Iran’s uranium enrichment program and had won nothing from the West for doing so tapped into popular support for the program — and had the added advantage of being true....
With regard to electoral irregularities, the specific criticisms made by Mousavi — .... Moreover, these irregularities do not, in themselves, amount to electoral fraud even by American legal standards. And, compared with the U.S. presidential election in Florida in 2000, the flaws in Iran’s electoral process seem less significant.-
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hyperbola6 months, 1 week ago
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The Obama administration should vigorously rebut any argument against engaging Tehran following Friday’s vote. More broadly, Ahmadinejad’s victory may force Obama and his senior advisers to come to terms with the deficiencies and internal contradictions in their approach to Iran. Before the Iranian election, the Obama administration had fallen for the same illusion as many of its predecessors — the illusion that Iranian politics is primarily about personalities and finding the right personality to deal with. That is not how Iranian politics works.
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The Islamic Republic is a system with multiple power centers; within that system, there is a strong and enduring consensus about core issues of national security and foreign policy, including Iran’s nuclear program and relations with the United States. Any of the four candidates in Friday’s election would have continued the nuclear program as Iran’s president; none would agree to its suspension.
Any of the four candidates would be interested in a diplomatic opening with the United States, but that opening would need to be comprehensive, respectful of Iran’s legitimate national security interests and regional importance, accepting of Iran’s right to develop and benefit from the full range of civil nuclear technology — including pursuit of the nuclear fuel cycle — and aimed at genuine rapprochement.
Such an approach would also, in our judgment, be manifestly in the interests of the United States and its allies throughout the Middle East. It is time for the Obama administration to get serious about pursuing this approach — with an Iranian administration headed by the reelected President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.
http://www.propeller.com/story/2009/06/18/ahmadine...-
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Ratskii6 months, 1 week ago
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My Bullsh*t meter has been hitting the red lately, hyper. You, Nature Boy and Descent have not just been arguing a point I have disagreed with. You have been using right wing tactics to put your thesis forward. I get the feeling your arguments are not disinterested and that you feel you have a dog in this fight. Do you think Mousavi would be less sympathetic to the Palestinian struggle than Ahmadenejad? Personally I don't think he'd dare to.
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Gransater6 months, 1 week ago
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Hyper
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Experts aside, how do you explain the massive demonstrations by Iranians, in Iran, against the result of the election.
This in a country where contrary opinions to the government generally isn't too healthy. Are all those people missguided aswell?
There is a sight, if it's still up, called Persian Bay, where regular Iranians are communicating with the world, against newly imposed law in Iran. There is more to this than meets the eye, and your assumption that just because A. won the election last time by some 60 %, he should be able to do so again is at best faulty.
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capecoralMComment removed: Retracted by user2 Replies
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cherev6 months, 1 week ago
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"The shameless fools "
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Ah...such tolerance from the "winners". Neocons beware: Arm yourselves to the teeth. If the "winners" still have to engage in this type of rhetoric AFTER they're already in power, be prepared for them to do worse in the future.-
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mesodude6 months, 1 week ago
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Please don't try to preach about tolerance. We really don't need to hear from white surpemacist nazi sympathizers who support murderous reactionaries that gun down innocent museum guards. We need cons to be quiet and let us clean up the horrific MESS you caused. Thanks.
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mesodude6 months, 1 week ago
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Everyone has their limits and you people have gone freaking overboard. I've never seen anything like you neocons in my lifetime--thinking you can destroy a country for 8 years, get kicked out of office and THEN destroy the country further to get back into power. It's outrageous.
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jk54896 months, 1 week ago
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"-thinking you can destroy a country for 8 years, get kicked out of office and THEN destroy the country further to get back into power. It's outrageous."
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You sound completely deranged. Destroy a country for 8 years? How exactly? For one thing the party currently in power has been there since 2006 and now they have complete unchecked power with an incompetent, inexperienced extremist in the oval office. In 6 months time this country has gone from a recession to the largest expansion of government power and spending in history. All unconstitutional, by the way. You obviously hate the principles of individual freedom and limited government that the country was founded on and prefer the oppression of centralized control that goes with your liberal extremist sickness.-
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CaptainLucid6 months, 1 week ago
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Ignoring warnings about Osama and allowing the worst attack since Pearl Harbor. Ignoring the weather report in New Orleans.Assuming the Iraqis would welcome us with open arms when we showed up to repossess their oil. Letting Bin Ladin off the hook because we were more interested in getting back our oil that happens to be buried under Iraqi sand. Borrowing and borrowing and borrowing because he wanted rich people like the ones who the war would benefit to get a big tax cut. Aiding and abetting massive bank fraud that almost destroyed out economy. Did I leave anything out bitch? What do you exactly mean by the party in power when the chimp holds the veto power. My guess is you don't mean crap and are just shooting off your ignorant mouth.
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Grumpy63528Comment removed: Spammer, Hard Banned
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Grumpy63528Comment removed: Spammer, Hard Banned
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Mutainia6 months, 1 week ago
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mesodude6 months, 1 week ago
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"I'll take "Night of The Living Neocons" over "Day of The Living Neo-Marxists" ANY time."
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--Listen, we let you people get away with murder for 8 years and you've gotten away with murder since you LOST. If we have to CRUSH your tiny little neocons skulls to keep this country safe and get us back on track, trust me, we will. ;-P-
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Mutainia6 months, 1 week ago
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I'm not a neocon, I'm a Conservative with Nationalistic tendencies. Still, though, I'll take whatever stupidity of neocons over the nation destroying nature of neo-Marxists ANY day. I mean, after 8 years, there was still somewhat of an America inSPITE of the great stupidity of Dubbya. I doubt there will be an America after Obummer is through.
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mesodude6 months, 1 week ago
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"I'm not a neocon, I'm a Conservative with Nationalistic tendencies."
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--No, dittohead con who probably supported Bush and his thugs who raped our country for 8 years.
--Still, though, I'll take whatever stupidity of neocons over the nation destroying nature of neo-Marxists"
--Why do greedy, filthy tax cut wh*re neocons think their silly little "marxist" and "socialist" labels mean anything--when you support all manner of corporate welfare and bitch when we try to provide health insurance for children? No one cares what you think is a marxist or a socialist. We don't give a crap what you think.
"I mean, after 8 years, there was still somewhat of an America inSPITE of the great stupidity of Dubbya. I doubt there will be an America after Obummer is through."
--That's the clue right there that you're a lying greedy con because this country was left a virtual pile of excrement when Bush left office and for you to sit back and actually claim Bush and his band of oil wh*res left anything but death and destruction in their wake is an absolute joke. There's a reason you're embarrassed to call yourself a Republican: Your judgment sucks in every conceivable way so what makes you think anyone cares about your doomsday prediction for the Obama administration? Exactly...We have NO reason to take stock in one word of what you destructive trolls bark out.-
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Mutainia5 months, 1 week ago
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Mut: I said "tendencies". Looks like you're a commie Marxist to the max.
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"I'm not a neocon, I'm a Conservative with Nationalistic tendencies."
--No, dittohead con who probably supported Bush and his thugs who raped our country for 8 years.
Mut: Still, though, I'll take whatever stupidity of neocons over the nation destroying nature of neo-Marxists"
--Why do greedy, filthy tax cut wh*re neocons think their silly little "marxist" and "socialist" labels mean anything--
Mut: Because it fits.
--when you support all manner of corporate welfare and bitch when we try to provide health insurance for children?
Mut: Which will be poor and government control. On the bright side, it will force you to take better care of yourself.
-- No one cares what you think is a marxist or a socialist.
Mut: Those who care about the country do, and, who have a brain.
-- We don't give a crap what you think.
Mut: Of course not. You will when Obummer is gone, I bet.
I mean, after 8 years, there was still somewhat of an America inSPITE of the great stupidity of Dubbya. I doubt there will be an America after Obummer is through.
--That's the clue right there that you're a lying greedy con because this country was left a virtual pile of excrement when Bush left office and for you to sit back and actually claim Bush and his band of oil wh*res left anything but death and destruction in their wake is an absolute joke.
Mut: Right. But, it was STILL here. You're STILL able to get a job and make somewhat of a living without complete commie government control. You STILL have the ability of free speech and expression. I doubt it will be that when Obummer is done.
-- There's a reason you're embarrassed to call yourself a Republican: Your judgment sucks in every conceivable way so what makes you think anyone cares about your doomsday prediction for the Obama administration?
Mut: My judgement would suck more if I was you, I feel.
-- Exactly...
Mut: Nice to see that we agree there. :)
--We have NO reason to take stock in one word of what you destructive trolls bark out.
Mut: IF you think I'm for Dubbya like you keep on thinking, I agree.
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Grumpy63528Comment removed: Spammer, Hard Banned
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Progressive6 months, 1 week ago
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Slip slidin' away
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Slip slidin' away
You know the nearer your destination
The more you're slip slidin' away...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKxyoud_c-E
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prophyporcritesComment removed: Spammer, Hard Banned31 Replies
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simonsez6 months, 1 week ago
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It's difficult to deny that a Democratic Republic on Iran's southern border has not emboldened the young people in Iran to stand up for more freedom. They are all Shias and close knit in many ways.
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This may be the first dividend of the unpopular Iraq war ...-
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Ratskii6 months, 1 week ago
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You got to be kidding.
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Shia majority Iraq that refuses to make any concessions to the Sunni minority. Iraq president who is completely friendly with the Iranian Mullahs. Democratic (read corrupt) Iraq where 100s of millions of dollars (perhaps billions) have gone missing. Democratic Iraq where the neighborhoods are separated by concrete walls.
Boy, they'd have to really be foolish not to what that, wouldn't they? -
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Grumpy63528Comment removed: Spammer, Hard Banned3 Replies
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Grumpy63528Comment removed: Spammer, Hard Banned1 Reply
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Natureboy6 months, 1 week ago
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"What caused the neocons and their fellow travelers on the right to sit up in their coffins this time is the almost certainly rigged Iran election and the massive unrest that has roiled the country in its aftermath."
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Want some cookies with that koolaid?
What Americans think is happening in Iran is about 90% psyop. -
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lloydm656 months, 1 week ago
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Mesodude what part of the last eight hurt you so bad.I think the war solved a lot of problems.We seen Saddam,and many of gangsters hung.We were able to remove the sanctions that killed over a million children by starvation,we have millions more free people in the world,and millions more to come.Yes war is hell,but when it's over sometimes a hell's been removed.I would explain more,but due to your drain bamage it would be futile
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