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Posted by: myfairlady 6 months, 2 weeks ago
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myfairlady6 months, 2 weeks ago
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Thinker226 months, 2 weeks ago
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No matter what the US will do there will be some yelling that the US WAS 'meddling' in the issue for the simple reason the US is only military superpower on the planet and it's very convenient to blame the US and its allies for everything.
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A pretty convincing example is the popular accusation of the US for Iranian support of Hezbollah, Hamas and other terrorist organizations because the US allegedly helped the Iranian Shah to get the power in Iran 56 years ago... despite the fact that the Shah himself as well as ALL his aids and supporters were IRANIANS.
Neither the US nor any other state can ignore the existence of other countries for as long as these countries share the same planet Earth. Anything BUT ignoring the existence of other states can be seen as 'meddling' in their issues. -
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UnusualSuspect6 months, 2 weeks ago
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And why should we "meddle"?
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The US loves to remind the world that we promote democracy, so when a country like Iran has elections, we should let them let solve it themselves.
We're not the policeman of the world, as much as we'd like to think we are...-
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Thinker226 months, 2 weeks ago
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> we should let them let solve it themselves.
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As long as the Iranians like the results of their elections and as long as they do not 'meddle' (and I mean REALLY) in other countries' issues letting them to solve their problems themselves if fine with me.
I do have some troubles with suggestions to let Iranian leaders to continue their nuclear program and then use the weapons obtained as a result against other states.
> We're not the policeman of the world, as much as we'd like to think we are...
One does not have to be a 'policeman' in order to fight back if attacked or even to help his/her friends and relatives to defend themselves. France and Britain were not 'policemen' when they've declared a war on Germany in Septembeer, 1939. The US was not a 'policeman' as well when it helped France, Britain and the Soviet Union to fight the Nazis.
Allowing Iran to develop nuclear weapons will inevitably lead to a large scale war in the Middle East which will not only certainly result in an unprecedented world-wide economical crisis but will have a lot of other unpredictable consequences. Do you really believe that the US should sit idle and wait for this to happen?-
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Georgia506 months, 2 weeks ago
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Hi Thinker. Long time no see.
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I guess we need to sit back and not meddle in Iran's affairs so they can get on with the task of arming terrorists with nukes and wiping Israel off the map.
And it appears we owe South Africa an apology for meddling in their affairs. I will now hold my breath....-
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Thinker226 months, 2 weeks ago
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> And it appears we owe South Africa an apology for meddling in their affairs.
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No way. South African racists were bad guys so it was acceptable to meddle in their afrairs. It is also, apparently, acceptable to meddle in the affairs of Israel because of the "apartheid" regime there... -
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UnusualSuspect6 months, 2 weeks ago
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Thinker226 months, 2 weeks ago
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> Sitting down with Iranians about their nuclear program is quite different...
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Of course. You would not suggest to talk about the nuclear program with those who may be removed from power tomorrow because their election appears to be suspicious to the masses and Western media?
Only when Ahmadinejad (and I have no doubts that it will be Ahmadinejad) will finalize his grip on power in Iran adn the election turmoil will be behind us... only THEN it will make some sense to "sit down with Iranians about their nuclear program". I suspect, however, that the Iranians will not be eager to join these talks.-
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jovial6 months, 2 weeks ago
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Thinker226 months, 2 weeks ago
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jovial6 months, 2 weeks ago
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If Israel wants to do something about Iran let THEM do it. Why do we have to keep getting entangled in wars to satisfy Israel's needs. Israel told us with no remorse the other day to butt out of their internal politics. I hear a lot of people "cheerleading" the U.S. to get involved with aggression in Iran. I think if Israel feels threatened to such a great extent they should invade Iran. That's how they felt about Lebanon and Gaza and they invaded. What's stopping them now?
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Thinker226 months, 2 weeks ago
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You should read something about Israel, Iran and, possibly, other countries and subjects in order to not make a fool of yourself THAT frequently, Jovial.
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For starters, you will be amazed to discover that Israel DOES feel threatened because Iranian leaders declared on multiple occasions their intentions to "erase" Israel from the map or simply destroy it. Considering the hundreds of nuclear-capable Iranian missiles combined with their nuclear program one has to be an idiot to believe that Iranian leaders are not planning to attack Israel ot at least blackmail Israel and the rest of the world into complying with Iranian demands.
You will be amazed even more to discover that Israel can not 'invade' Iran for many different reasons. First, Iran does not have a common border with Israel meaning that Israeli invasion forces will have to go through at least one Arab country (Syria, Jordan and Iraq) to reach Iran which is 900 kilometers from Israel at the closest point.
Second, Iran is a large country 80 (yes, EIGHTY) times as large as Israel with population about 12 times as large as the population of Israel. These three reasons (distance, size and absence of a common border) make Israeli invasion to Iran an impossibility.
Excluding invasion of ground forces and considering that Israeli air force while being top-notch technically is rather small in numbers and not equipped well for the long distances involved means that Israel has very few options left to fight back in case Iranian leaders will decide to make good of their promises to destroy Israel. I personally do not see any other practical option for Israeli reaction to an Iranian attack but a nuclear strike massive enough to eliminate the possibility of a following Iranian counter-attack.
Should I continue to explain the consequences of a large scale nuclear war in the Middle East on the economy in the US and the rest of the world or you can use your own imagination?-
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Thinker226 months, 2 weeks ago
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As I've said, Jovial, you should read something about Israel, Iran and other countries and subjects. You will be amazed to discover that Israel is a SOVEREIGN STATE and that this means, among other things, that the Israeli people and its leaders have the right to decide what is good for them, NOT do what someone else says.
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By the way, I have not seen yet your declaration saying something like "If they (Palestinians) want our help then they better do what we say" and demanding to stop all kinds of aid to the Palestinians for as long as they are not in full compliance. Does it mean that the Palestinians actually DO what you say or, alternatively, that you treat Palestinians differently from Jews?-
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jovial6 months, 2 weeks ago
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Then if they are A SOVREIGN STATE let them take care of their own problems no matter how formidable they may seem. We do it. It seems that the only time Israel likes to invade or attack other people is when they know for a fact they have overwhelming military superiortiy. Let's see if the warmongerers in your cabinet have the stomach to fight a real war.
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Thinker226 months, 2 weeks ago
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> Then if they are A SOVREIGN STATE let them take care of their own problems...
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Israel always took care of their own problems, Jovial. It will do it again if necessary even if Iranian leaders will decide to attack it. I've already explained how Israel will, possibly, do it considering the size of Iran, the distance between Israel and Iran, the Arab countries in-between and the need to assure that Iran will not be capable to launch a counter-attack against Israel in the future. I've also explained that such Israeli actions will inevitably result in catastroplic consequences for the world economy making it of utmost importance for the US and other Western countries to prevent Iran from attacking Israel... but you've, apparently, ignored my explanations. It's a pity as ignorance never makes you smarter.
> It seems that the only time Israel likes to invade or attack other people is when they know for a fact they have overwhelming military superiortiy.
No, Jovial. Israel NEVER attacked other people without a provocation. It ALWAYS responded to an attack or an act of aggression by a militarily weaker enemies (PLO or Hezbollah based in Lebanon) or by militarily stronger ones (Lebanon, Syria, Transjordan, Iraq and Egypt in 1948; Egypt, Syria and Jordan in 1967; Egypt and Syria in 1973)... and I can assure you that in every case it was a real war.-
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jovial6 months, 2 weeks ago
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I could care less about the history/logistics lesson. If Israel wants our help they should seriously consider what our President is saying. To thumb their nose at us and try to run counter to our policies as we try to help them is not productive.
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Thinker226 months, 2 weeks ago
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> I could care less about the history/logistics lesson.
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I doubt it. Caring LESS about history lessons is hardly possible for someone who does not care about these lessons at all, Jovial.
> If Israel wants our help they should seriously consider what our President is saying.
I can assure you that the Israeli government takes the President's sayings VERY seriously. This being said, however, it does not mean that it will always comply with these sayings nor does the US law require such full compliance with the President's sayings as a condition of the US aid to Israel.
to put in simpler terms Israeli government' job is to care about ISRAELI interests just as the job of American government is to care about American interests. As long as aid to Israel is being seen to be in American interests this aid will continue do you like it or not.-
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Thinker226 months, 2 weeks ago
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> I care about history..just not your twisted interpretation of it.
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You do? In this case you should have no troubles offering an anternative interpretation correlating with documented facts and common sense. Good luck, Jovial!
> Well the US law should require full compliance. That is a major part of the problem.
If you believe that the US laws that do not require full compliance are "a major part of the problem" you should move to a place where such compliance is already achieved.-
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Thinker226 months, 2 weeks ago
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Good luck, Jovial! Don't forget to offer your alternative interpretation of history correlating with documented facts and common sense, however.
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In this case, you've forgotten to include such alternative interpretation, unfortunately. You've also forgotten to include a couple of examples of my "name calling" you've complained about and in general, you did not include ANY examples of ANY bad things I've, apparently, committed.
Keep the good work, Jovial!
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Dionys6 months, 2 weeks ago
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"I do have some troubles with suggestions to let Iranian leaders to continue their nuclear program and then use the weapons obtained as a result against other states."
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More "the x's have nuclear weapons!!!!!!!" scare tactics. Don't you ever learn?-
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Thinker226 months, 2 weeks ago
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I've learned long enough to know that two and two is four, Dionis. I've also learned long anough to know that if someone is threatening to kill you it's wise to believe him especially if he is spending a lot of money on weapons... like the Iranian leaders are doing.
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Nevertheless you're welcome to PROVE me wrong, Dionys... if you can.-
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jovial6 months, 2 weeks ago
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Thinker226 months, 2 weeks ago
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> That's your tactic to throw up some conspiracy that's semi-plausible...
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It's interesting that you refer to multiple and VERY public threats to destroy Israel made by Iranian President Ahmadinejad, the Supreme Leader of Iran Ayatollah Khamenei and other political, religious and military Iranian leaders as "some conspiracy that's semi-plausible".
> The problem is you can't prove it right either.
I CAN. To prove the Iranian threats I can show hundreds of links to relevant declarations of Iranian leaders.
To prove me wrong, however, Dionys (or YOU) will have to show that Iranian leaders somehow conspired with the Zionists against their own people to create an impression of aggressive threatening Iran while in reality Iran is a peaceful, friendly and loving democracy. Somehow I doubt that either of you will even try to tackle this difficult task.-
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jovial6 months, 2 weeks ago
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A declaration isn't proof. How many times has the U.S. been threatened by that nut from N. Korea. It's all blowhard. LIke I said before, it's Israel's problem. They wanted us to butt out of their politics. So let us butt out. You guys should be on your own. maybe your country should start giving us money instead of vica-versa. Tired of Iran's threatening, let Israel ATTACK THEM!.
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Thinker226 months, 2 weeks ago
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They (Iranians) already have the gun (hundreds of nuclear-capable missiles with range of 2000 to 3000 kilometers). They're busy working on loading this gun (the Iranian nuclear program).
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This means that you DON'T KNOW what their gun is loaded with but you believe that it's loaded with blanks and you "wouldn't sweat it" until the bullet hits you proving you were mistaken. Somehow I do not believe that this is what you would do if someone was pointing a gun at you yelling that he was going to kill you.
You believe that Iranian leaders are morons spending billions on missiles which are practically unusable without warheads. Alternatively, you believe that Israelis are morons supposed to buy this tale.-
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Thinker226 months, 2 weeks ago
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As I've already explained you better believe to someone who is pointing a gun at you yelling that he is going to kill you.
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Regarding "Iran KNOWS for a fact" you may recall that in November, 1941 Japan KNEW for a fact as well. Nevertheless, in December, 1941 it attacked the US in Pearl Harbor.
I do not have any reasons to beleive that the Iranian leaders are liars and bluffers. If you beleive that YOU know better than the Supreme Leader of Iran Ayatollah Ali Khamenei and the President of Iran Mahmoud Ahmadinejad what Iranian plans and intentions are be my guest and share this information with us.
Don't forget to explain the benefits Iran is gaining from "bluffing" about its intentions to destroy Israel. In return I'll explain to you what Iran is, apparently, losing from its "bluffing" while it is playing (according to you) a "sheep in the wolf's clothes".
Good luck!-
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jovial6 months, 2 weeks ago
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Don't forget the benefits that Israel is gaining by this enhanced fear mongering. They get unfettered military aide and money. It's time to get Israel of the tit. The arrogance of you to equate the goals of Israel to our goals without considering us at all. I'm ignoring your cheerleading azz , because you sound like a stinking broken record. The same mentality over and over again without the wilingness to try something different.
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Thinker226 months, 2 weeks ago
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> Don't forget the benefits that Israel is gaining by this enhanced fear mongering. They get unfettered military aide and money.
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This is hardly a "benefit", Jovial. You see, American aid to Israel amounts to $3 billion a year while Israel spends on defense about $13 Billion. It seems that Israel would gladly turn down US aid and use the remaining $10 billion elsewhere in case there was no need to spend that much on defense.
> The same mentality over and over again without the wilingness to try something different.
As I've said ignorance rarely makes you smarter. If you don't like the mentality of trusting those threatening to kill you and fighting back when attacked why don't you offer a BETTER alternative instead of ignoring the only (at least for now) option available?-
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jovial6 months, 2 weeks ago
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Ignorance is running into a wall again and again like you are. Your name calling proves you can't dispute my facts. Israel needs to fight their own battles. For a couple of countries that are so small in land mass and population. Israel and the Palestinians- have directly or indirectly been the cause of more grief and trouble than frankly they're worth. Take your 10 billion and see ya! BTW, 3 billion is over 20% of your defense budget. So you and your country's arrogance shines again. I say cutoff all aid, and let you guys do whatever you like. I'm sure one day your common sense will get the better of your arrogance.
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Thinker226 months, 2 weeks ago
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> Ignorance is running into a wall...
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I'm not running into a wall, Jovial. To the contrary, I'm always offering clear as well as factually, logically and documantally supported statements.
> Your name calling proves...
The only name I've use referring to you was 'Jovial' but it was the name you've chosen for yourself, Jovial.
> I say cutoff all aid, and let you guys do whatever you like.
Well, you may say whatever you want, of course. If and when your sayings will mean something come back and I'll gladly continue this conversation. -
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Endoscopy6 months, 2 weeks ago
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When is it meddling to call a spade a spade. Obama's refusal to acknowledge the wrong done there is tantamount to endorsing it. The President of France gave a speech denouncing what happened and that is not meddling. Obama is to be found wanting.
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