Comments for Sarkozy: Burqas 'Not Welcome' in France »
Posted By Eagle_Eye 5 months, 2 weeks ago in ReligionPresident Nicolas Sarkozy said the Muslim burqa would not be welcome in France, calling the full-body religious gown a sign of the debasement of women.
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Eagle_Eye5 months, 2 weeks ago
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""The burqa is not a religious sign, it's a sign of subservience, a sign of debasement — I want to say it solemnly," he said. "It will not be welcome on the territory of the French Republic."
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I have to agree with this statement....it's a "Taliban" garment isn't it?? If it was a "Muslim" religious garment then the entire female population would of been covered for centuries..IMHO-
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CRYMTYPHON5 months, 2 weeks ago
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It is not only taliban; although they demand it.
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The iranians (who are shiite) also 'encourage' it.
It is not expected of women in all moslem societies; say, Egypt or Morraco; not yet.
Consider it enforced for women in any muslem society that considers itself
purist or conservative.
But I agree; it is a sign of subservience, at the least.
In my opinion it is an abomination that steals the human face.-
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CRYMTYPHON5 months, 2 weeks ago
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I feel exactly the same way,
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If the dress codes of Orthodox jews or scientologists or reformed baptists
were to remove them from society,
- my obligation to society would be to bann it..
A society has the right to make minimal human demands
for the right of citizenship.
We demand a face.
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Dionys5 months, 2 weeks ago
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It's a conservative religious garment often in use in the more conservative Muslim countries. It's not a 'Taliban' garment. The same issues regarding covering women can be found in both the Bible and Qu'ran and can be seen in Muslim culture and Orthodox Russian/Eastern-European culture.
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What people might want to do is ask the women who wear them what they think. A large majority, when allowed to speak freely, appreciate the wearing of the outfits.-
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CRYMTYPHON5 months, 2 weeks ago
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"When allowed to speak freely"?
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When does that happen?
Some sidewalk interview?
A door to door poll?
Conservative Moslem women are not allowed to talk to strangers unacompanied
by a male relative.
They are not supposed to be out .
And what percentage of slaves ever are in favor of freedom?
The paraphanalia of slavery: shackles, iron collars, - and burquas.
It is up to free people to ban them.
No doubt their decendents will thank us.
Assuming we do anything, anyway.-
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Beau78905 months, 2 weeks ago
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I have to go with Dionys here. While I may not agree with their choice to wear burqas, some women would in fact choose to wear them.
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I'd say it's up to free people to choose for themselves, and for other members of society to be tolerant of their choices.-
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CRYMTYPHON5 months, 2 weeks ago
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I, (and you and dionys) spend most of our time on propeller proclaiming the duties of a community to its individuals.
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There can not exist, without acknowledging the the duty of the individual to the community.
If you belong to it,
- you are not allowed to teach and terrorize your children to hide their faces from the community.
That is, literaly, dis-figurement ; the removal of the face.
It is beyond the duties of tolerance.
A just society may say,
I don't know who you are; I have no obligation to you. Scram.
Which is a lot of words to have to use,
to argue against making women walk around in tarps because you own them.-
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Beau78905 months, 2 weeks ago
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You know I'm not arguing for "making women walk around in tarps because you own them," right?
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Your argument works better as a refutation of the fundamentalist Muslim law that requires burqas be worn than one in support of Sarkozy's desire to ban them.
And I'd agree: People should not be required to wear what they don't want to wear. And people should be free to wear what they want to wear.
In the context of proclaiming the duties of a community to its individuals, I'd put it this way: A community should not micromanage its members. A religion shouldn't dictate what they can wear. A government shouldn't either.-
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Beau78905 months, 2 weeks ago
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No--IDs are there for the purpose of identifying someone. People should have to show their face on identification cards, and if checking the ID is necessary for security, a woman wearing a burqa should have to show that her face matches.
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But that's different from banning burqas at all times, everywhere. -
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CRYMTYPHON5 months, 2 weeks ago
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I know that no one who respects liberty is in favor of making anybody wear
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tarps. Not Dionys, nor Beau.
But the most unpleasant and treacherous part of respecting liberty is
the obligation to say, occasionaly , 'you may not '.
If this were an issue of adults deciding freely what to wear,
- there would be no issue.
But it is not a matter of style;
but of humanity; of ownership and human faces.
To be raised not to have a face that you can share
with your fellow citizens, - means you are not a citizen.
You are owned by those who you are allowed to see you.
A free society will regard that as slavery; and as a threat.
It will say 'You may not'.
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Candida5 months, 2 weeks ago
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CRYMTYPHON: " If you belong to it, - you are not allowed to teach and terrorize your children to hide their faces from the community."
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There are a lot more hideous things some groups teach their children, like hatred, within the western countries. We should perhaps take care of those problems before we spend too much time on superficial things like clothes.
"That is, literaly, dis-figurement ; the removal of the face."
Yes, in a way it is, but there are other kinds. What about heavy make-up? How many women do you see bare-faced on the streets? We don't notice it because it's part of our culture. How about tattoos? Should people be allowed to cover their bodies, including their faces, with tattoos?
"It is beyond the duties of tolerance. A just society may say, I don't know who you are; I have no obligation to you. Scram."
Why? If it's really their freedom we are concerned about, you can do a lot to inform them of their rights as soon as they arrive in a western country. We could provide or even mandate free English (French or whatever) classes for them so they would not be completely dependent on their husbands. We could make sure that they have a basic understanding of the legal system. Why are we hung up about their clothes?
A few years ago, a small Muslim group wanted to introduce Sharia law for family matters in Ontario. I was at the parliament, with many Muslims as well, protesting against it. In the end, the Premier simply said: "No, thank you" and even took away similar arbitration rights from other religious groups. Clothing is not the real problem.
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Candida5 months, 2 weeks ago
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CRYMTYPHON: "Conservative Moslem women are not allowed to talk to strangers unacompanied by a male relative. They are not supposed to be out ."
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Then, I guess, the burqa is just a small part of the problem. We can't reshape their society, so we better let them do it.
Regarding those who immigrate to western countries, first generation immigrants tend to stick to their old customs, but later generations gradually shed them.
I've never seen women speak freely about the burqa, but I have seen discussions about the hijab, and some Muslim women wear it voluntarily
Take a look at this video:
http://www.tvo.org/cfmx/tvoorg/tvoutils/globalfile...-
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Candida5 months, 2 weeks ago
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Sorry about the link to the video; I've just noticed it doesn't take you where it should. Let's try this one, and click on the Watch Video link on the right column. A bunch of Muslim women freely discuss the hijab. Some are for it, some are against it.
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http://www.tvo.org/cfmx/tvoorg/theagenda/index.cfm...-
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Candida5 months, 2 weeks ago
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That doesn't seem to work either, so this is my last try. The first is the main page where one has to select Watch Video, and the second should be the video itself.
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http://tinyurl.com/lfebub
http://tinyurl.com/kq355b
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Candida5 months, 2 weeks ago
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CRYMTYPHON: "It is up to free people to ban them."
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There is a difference between disliking or condemning something and banning it. How do you know how those women really feel? You can argue that they have been brainwashed, but do you really know what's good for them? Why would you force your will on them?
In the western countries they have the same rights as everybody else. It is true that they may be coerced by their families into wearing the burga, but lots of people are coerced into all kinds of things. My neighbor's daughter is going to have an arranged marriage this summer. Should I interfere because I find it coercion? If a freed slave insists on staying with his/her owner, should we interfere?
"The only freedom which deserves the name is that of pursuing our own good in our own way, so long as we do not attempt to deprive others of theirs, or impede their efforts to obtain it. Each is the proper guardian of his own health, whether bodily, or mental or spiritual. Mankind are greater gainers by suffering each other to live as seems good to themselves, than by compelling each to live as seems good to the rest."
John Stuart Mill, On Liberty, 1859-
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CRYMTYPHON5 months, 2 weeks ago
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How do I know how they feel?
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I don't.
I suspect that given a choice empty of threats,
many or most would keep to what they have been taught.
Slaves are seldom thrilled at the idea of freedom.
What of it?
There is no deeper human interaction than to simply show your face.
To be taught it must be hidden, as a sign of your ownership by the men of your culture,
is worse than wearing chains.
The affirmation of freedom is not confused with the indiference to the conditions of your fellow citizens.
if they are brought up to be slaves they will be slaves;
- and their future liberty must rest with those who act to free them.
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gamahuche5 months, 2 weeks ago
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earthlingerer5 months, 2 weeks ago
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hyperbola5 months, 2 weeks ago
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tricky business
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"""Because they are accepted norms of fashion..."""
Not everywhere and not by everybody. Indeed, perhaps only by a minority of the world's population. "Accepted norms" is a very double-edged sword.
One should also not forget that the traditional dress for "arab" men was an ankle length WOOL robe and a hat/face covering. Very practical for isolation of the body from killing heat in a hot, desert climate.
That said, I don't think much of burkas and expect they will die a natural extinction.-
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earthlingerer5 months, 2 weeks ago
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Yes perhaps only a minority of the world's population. Such as China, India, Russia, the EU, the US, Mexico, all of South America, Australia, Japan.... etc. Much like BEER is a global beverage, and there is NO civilization that began without beverages made by fermenting sugar.
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Women who want to wear a burqa in France probably have enough money to live rather well wherever it is they wear burqas
When you're in Rome, do as the Romans...
...or serve as "entertainment" for the locals.
Gaul WAS part of the Roman Empire.
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gamahuche5 months, 2 weeks ago
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"Good enough?"
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No!
POSIIBLY it might be if I could untangle what you're trying to say, but I rather doubt it!
One huge mistake in this debate is the assumption that all the women involved WANT to remove/discard/ eliminate the burka.
I'm not an apologist for any woman to be forced to wear anything that she doesn't want to. OTOH many Arab women feel protected by it..
[Whether they should feel the need for such protection in an ideal world is a different issue again.-
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earthlingerer5 months, 2 weeks ago
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Okay, maybe I was a little off...
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Women should be allowed to wear burqas as long as they don't go into banks, stores, attend public functions, use public transportation, approach police officers, or work in any capacity where they deal with the public at large.
Then the norms that we hold and respect as a society won't be affected.
If you're so special that others cannot behold your "beauty", then maybe you should be "kept" in a special cloistered place.
Now, if I wanted to wear a mask into a bank because of my ancient traditions, which go back many hundreds of years BEFORE islam, should I be able to upon those celebration days? Maybe I might want to wear a dirk in a nightclub? How about Sikh ceremonial daggers in a courthouse.
Precedent has already been set, and for at least several centuries.-
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Candida5 months, 2 weeks ago
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TheRealizer5 months, 2 weeks ago
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Canida... I may be wrong (have been before) but for some reason you strike me as a religious zealot...
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I have had a lifelong hatred of organized religion of any persuasion. More evil is perpetrated in the name of religion than from any other source!!-
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Candida5 months, 2 weeks ago
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Yes, you are wrong. I'm an atheist and I agree with you that organized religion has visited much more evil than good on the world.
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I have no love for Islam, or any other religion, but when you say that the Muslim women's husbands should lock them up at home if they don't want you to see them, it strikes me that you are concerned primarily with your own safety, rights and comfort and not with their freedom. -
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Natureboy5 months, 2 weeks ago
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A good point. If you want to see woman debased, check out an American beauty pageant, or any other setting where women are paraded like cattle at auction.
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Which is more debasing to women, a culture which prescribes garb concealing their physical attributes, or a culture (ours) which judges women mercilessly on the basis of their physical attributes?-
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Candida5 months, 2 weeks ago
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Lots of women get beaten in our society too; otherwise we wouldn't need so many shelters for them. It's true that they can leave, but so can the Muslim women in western societies. You probably will say that they risk being killed. Quite a few of our women run that risk too.
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CRYMTYPHON5 months, 2 weeks ago
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Candida, that women in our society are treated poorly,
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is no refutation even of an islamic nation's enslaving
women.
And it is the west we are talking about.
If we treat women poorly,
- let us do better.
Start by banning the wearing of Burqas.-
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Candida5 months, 2 weeks ago
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jordan115 months, 2 weeks ago
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No one forces women to enter beauty pageants. Muslim girls are taught that they're subservient to men. They are taught to hide themselves, and if they don't, suffer often severe consequences. And trust me, women who see those consequences think twice about discarding THEIR coverings. Every time a Muslim woman is abused for 'uncovering' herself, it sends a very distinct message to ALL Muslim women. They have no free choice with these things hanging over their heads, (no pun intended).
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There is no place in a free society for pockets of cultures which abuse their members. France is right to do this. It simply can't be ignored that women who wear those garments are from a culture which makes women fearful and subservient, represented by the garments themselves. And women who wear them are sending a subliminal message to other Muslim women.
This is sort of like why our capital building won't be flying the confederate flag. Because of what it represents.
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CRYMTYPHON5 months, 2 weeks ago
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First time I ever negged a gamahuche comment.
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Had to happen sometime.
He is an honest person who enforces his morals chiefly at himself
- and only secondly at others.
So he does not agree we should tell someone else 'You can not wear that'.
I say it though.
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earthlingerer5 months, 2 weeks ago
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Natureboy5 months, 2 weeks ago
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So no yarmulkes? No tzitzits for the orthodox? No scapulars or crosses for the Catholic faithful? No "Our Lady of Guadalupe" Tee shirts or tats for our hispanic brethren? What about those little red spots on the foreheads of the Hindus?
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Who made Sarkozy or ANYBODY the frickin' fashion police? This is sh!t! What next, France gets a dress code like a Catholic prep school? Polo shirts with fleur-de-lis mandatory?
A better dress code -
If you are around those whom you believe would be offended by your nakedness, cover, it, somehow. Beyond that, do as thou wilt! Freedom is a good thing!-
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CRYMTYPHON5 months, 2 weeks ago
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RocknRoll is a good thing.
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Ice cream is a good thing.
Frisbees are a good thing.
Freedom ism't a good thing.
It is a requirement.
Those who are brought up to hide their faces from the rest of
the humans, do not share in human society;
they do not have a common face with the civilization.
The civilization can bann them like any other alien.-
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Beau78905 months, 2 weeks ago
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CRYMTYPHON5 months, 2 weeks ago
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If the culture is raising up a person from childhood,
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to believe it is right,
- there is damn little point in my asking them.
Particularly if that same culture does not allow for
me to even talk to them without a big male relative
present.
Stockholm syndrome is not a sign of individuality;
still less a cultural tradition from the bronze age
that has no business in a free society walking
the sidewalks of paris.-
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Beau78905 months, 2 weeks ago
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I'd wager that converts to Islam would be more likely to make the choice to wear burqas of their own volition than those who were immersed from birth in an oppressive culture that requires it.
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How can one ever know what factors influence anyone's decisions other than to ask the individual in question?-
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CRYMTYPHON5 months, 2 weeks ago
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"How can one ever know what factors influence anyone's decisions other than to ask the individual in question"
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Is it so hard to know how children are raised?
Is it so dificult to identify what restrictions their family
create not to step beyond those restrictions?
Our duty to be tolerant of other cultures,
- obligates us to be sensible of what not to tolerate .
We are not talking about cultural subtlties
This is about men forcing women to never show
their faces to the society they belong to.
That is a crime.
A society has an obligation to say 'that is wrong.'-
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Beau78905 months, 2 weeks ago
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You don't believe every woman who wears a burqa does so because she grew up in a repressive culture that forces it upon her, do you? The society I live in allows me to hide my face if I so desire.
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There is more to revealing oneself than showing one's face. Many Muslim women who wear burqas by choice express strong opinions publicly and show more of their true selves that way. (Perhaps not in Afghanistan.)
It's interesting that we're having this discussion online--where one can know quite a bit about another without ever seeing his or her face.-
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CRYMTYPHON5 months, 2 weeks ago
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"You don't believe every woman who wears a burqa does so because she grew up in a repressive culture that forces it upon her, do you"
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Of course I do.
Exclude grown up converts, if you want; an irrelevant percentage.
And that we have this discussion without seeing
each other's faces, - does not correspond.
Talking on the internet is an expression of freedom.
So also is walking down the sidewalk.
To be trained like a dog not to have a face when you are on the sidewalk,
- is to be raised a slave.
A free society has the right to say 'no'.
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CRYMTYPHON5 months, 2 weeks ago
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Every culture raises its children with a set of fiat
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rules, beliefs and strictures.
They are not all equal.
Ones that tell you that you own someone else,
- are bad cultures.
Ones that tell you to decide who you are,
- are good cultures.
A culture that tells women not to show their faces in
public is a bad culture; a free society should rule against its
presence in its streets.
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jordan115 months, 2 weeks ago
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Ask them.>>>>
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What would happen to them behind closed doors if they said they really didn't want to wear them? They aren't safe because they live in the boundaries of a free society. Women are abused all the time in 'free' societies.
I think people are missing the point of what the garment represents, and are being disingenuous when they don't admit to that. As long as it's there, it's an intimidating tool which sends a message to ALL Muslim women.
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Eagle_Eye5 months, 2 weeks ago
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A woman can cover her self from head to toe and it doesn't need to be a Burqa....
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Burqa's make it very easy for any one to hide their identity male or female along with having a "Bomb" vest strapped onto them which makes it very easy to go any where....IMHO, security is far more important, especially if you have had terrorists in your country.-
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Eagle_Eye5 months, 2 weeks ago
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Dionys5 months, 2 weeks ago
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"Did I say anything about the US??"
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You said that a particular kind of clothing makes it easy to hide, go anywhere, or whatever with a bomb strapped to one's chest. Then you stated security is far more important, especially if there are terrorists in 'your' country.
There are terrorists in the US. You say security is more important. So how can you disagree with a US dress code? -
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Candida5 months, 2 weeks ago
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Eagle_Eye: "I feel strongly about wanting to know if that is a female or a male next to me and if there are any concealed weapons"
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Do you always know whether the person next to you is a male of female when he/she is wearing pants?
Doesn't a large portion of the US population carry concealed weapons right now? I thought it was considered a good thing in the US. I remember reading comments about some places where it's mandatory.
Yes, it would be easy for a terrorist to use a burqa, but is this a real problem in the West? By the same token you could outlaw all loose-fitting clothes, like puffy parkas. Parkas would be more useful because they draw a lot less attention.
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CRYMTYPHON5 months, 2 weeks ago
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The fact you have been brought up to regard yourself as
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property, - does not obligate me to treat you as property.
The fact you have been taught to hide your face in public,
does not moraly obligate the public to allow you to do so.
If you wish to join the humans in the streets of a democracy,
a face is required.
Any religion that teachers otherwise,
- let them keep to their caves.
It is a double blasphemy to have such costumes on the streets of London and Paris.
People have worked to make those places free.
More work required.-
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Dionys5 months, 2 weeks ago
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"It is a double blasphemy to have such costumes on the streets of London and Paris.
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People have worked to make those places free."
I guess you and I disagree on what it means to be 'free.' In my book it includes the freedom to wear a Burqa if one so chooses. -
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Candida5 months, 2 weeks ago
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CRYMTYPHON: "The fact you have been brought up to regard yourself as property, - does not obligate me to treat you as property."
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But isn't it exactly that what you are doing when you deny that they are able to make their own choices and want to dictate to them to wear the kind of clothing you like?
"If you wish to join the humans in the streets of a democracy,
a face is required. "
Why? Because you say so? Can't you see that you are replacing: "Thou shalt not show your face" with "Thou shalt show your face"?
"The only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others. His own good, either physical or moral, is not sufficient warrant."
John Stuart Mill, On Liberty
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