Comments for Michael Jackson: Bad! And very dangerous - The Independent »
Posted By gamahuche 5 months, 3 weeks ago in NewsThis week, the news has been dominated by Michael Jackson. But, in this highly provocative article, the author and former music industry executive John Niven questions the adulation of the 'King of Pop', given the allegations of child abuse that emerged in recent years
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gamahuche5 months, 3 weeks ago
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Everything that has a front has a back. When people die it seems that they frequently get a pass on the aspects of their life that are - at the very least - questionable. This story makes no bones about exposing the darker features of the Michael Jackson story. Do we do honour to ourselves - or even to him - by closing our eyes to the dark side of life? Did it ultimately benefit MJ that he was able to spend millions to avoid facing the music,lost in alcohol and drugs?
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ekklesiawarriorComment removed: Hard Banned
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hyperbola5 months, 3 weeks ago
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I was kind of bemused by the author's "expectation" that the BBC's News Night was going to be anything more than trivia with the conventional constraints. That is was it ALWAYS is, independent of topic - maybe the author is so far inside the Brit propaganda bubble that he doesn't know any better?
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gamahuche5 months, 3 weeks ago
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I would disagree with this hyperbola.
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Until the Iraq War the BBC remained a very independent entity.
They were sandbagged by Tony Blair - or rather by his hitman.
David Kelly later died.
The details of his death make it extremely unlikely that this was a suicide, though it was declared as such.
Here's a relevant comment from the Economist:
The David Kelly affair
Blair, the BBC and the war
Jul 24th 2003
From The Economist print edition
THE rapturous ovations that greeted Tony Blair's speech last week to both houses of America's Congress had barely died down before Britain's prime minister was cast low by a shocking development in the war. Not the war in Iraq, but a related and ferocious war he is waging at home against Britain's state-financed broadcaster, the BBC.
Within hours of Mr Blair's speech, one of the government's leading authorities on Iraq's weapons of mass destruction was found dead. He had killed himself. The government had earlier named this man, David Kelly, as the source for BBC reports that the government had “sexed-up” the evidence on Iraq's weapons of mass destruction. Specifically, the BBC had reported its source as criticising the government's claim that Iraq's WMD could be deployed at 45 minutes' notice, later emphasised by the prime minister to great effect. This had been included in the government's published dossier of intelligence at the last minute, according to the source, at the insistence of 10 Downing Street and against the wishes of the intelligence agencies. …-
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hyperbola5 months, 3 weeks ago
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Well gama, I hae been watching the BBC from time to time for about 30 years now. It has been a long time since they ever get out of the standardized "propaganda bubble". The "controversies" that they stage for people are will within the boundary of that bubble and they avoid raising real issues.
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gamahuche5 months, 3 weeks ago
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I woud like to rewrite the last 2 sentences - changes in caps..:
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Do we do honour to ourselves - or even to him - by closing our eyes to the dark side of HIS life? Did it ultimately benefit MJ that he was able to spend millions to avoid facing the music of the child-abuse charges, in a lost reality of alcohol and drugs? -
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Candida5 months, 3 weeks ago
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Just like the adulation is overblown in the MSM, the condemnation in the article is overblown as well. He is not dangerous, he is dead. What he deserves most of all, in my view, is pity. I've never been a great fan of his, but whenever I saw him in his later years, I saw a man who has never grown up and who was extremely uncomfortable in his own skin. In spite of all his successes, I see his whole life as a complete disaster.
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mark-stevens5 months, 3 weeks ago
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The black Micheal Jackson was never convicted of anything. On the other hand a white Pete Townsend was CONVICTED of the felon charges of collecting child porn.
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You are talking about a dead man, while Pete Townsend was being honored at the Kennedy center last month. Why isn't there an out cry about that!!!-
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JamesMarcus5 months, 3 weeks ago
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Townshend's crime consisted of having images of child porn on his computer. He claimed that he had compiled these for a project on child abuse. I have no idea what the truth is here--but it's undeniable that he's written music about child abuse on several previous occasions, the most notable being "Tommy."
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Michael Jackson was accused of a much more serious offense: sexual predation. He was acquitted--again, who knows what really happened? But even if he stopped short of actual sexual behavior, the squalid picture of a grown man spoon-feeding alcohol (under the guise of "Jesus Juice") to children, then snuggling up with them in bed, is pretty hard to stomach.-
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Progressive5 months, 3 weeks ago
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London police cleared Townsend of kiddie porn charges.:
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http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/petetownshend...-
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JamesMarcus5 months, 3 weeks ago
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I stand corrected: he didn't have porn on his computer, but he did use a credit card to look at a kiddie porn site on the Web, possibly just once. Comparing this to King of Pop's behavior in his private rumpus room makes no sense at all. Which still doesn't prevent me from enjoying Jackson's performances.
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k9kssr5 months, 3 weeks ago
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History is already being re-written on Jackson. Rev. Al Sharpton was on TV saying that, in regard to the pedophilia charges, that Michael didn't do a bad thing and wasn't "bad", but the charges were "bad".
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I can't understand why we idolize entertainers, hollyweird, and sports figures and pay them salaries that would make bankers drool, when there are more worthy recipients to honor and compensate.-
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hyperbola5 months, 3 weeks ago
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I´ll agree with that. Kind of sad that we have so many "sheep" whose own lives presumably are so lacking that they have to seek vicarious satisfaction. Of course, our whole society is pretty much structured to pressure people into such passive roles.
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theorangetrailblazerComment removed: Hard Banned2 Replies
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Poulenc5 months, 3 weeks ago
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The MJ "challenge" is whether one can separate the dancer from the dance.
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Why can't we maintain a binary view of him: as performer and as person? In fact, it's unenlightened not to.
One can enjoy what he did on stage without approving of what he did off it. Art doesn't need to answer to moral claims based on who the artist was.-
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gamahuche5 months, 3 weeks ago
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Can you separate the art from the artist so surgically?
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In certain respects MJ's life WAS his art and the two were bound together in bizarre fantasies and strange behaviour of many varieties.
Giving tens of millions of dollars to settle charges of abusing young boys cannot be simply put aside when considering the person in death.
How far would one take this thinking?
Rehabilitate Hitler because he had a nice singing voice?-
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Poulenc5 months, 3 weeks ago
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G., the two--MJ's life and art--are of course inseparable in the--what shall I call it? Forensic sense.
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But ultimately, to me, the issue isn't, do we abort praise for the art because of the man, or can we...rub our bellies and pat our heads at the same time?
I go for the latter. Art isn't moral or immoral--people are.
PS, I don't believe that MJ's life was his art. It was undoubtedly, partly, at least, a second career.
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Charlson5 months, 3 weeks ago
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When the adulation started I cautioned that celebrating his music is not the same as celebrating the man. I love his music but truly dislike the man and his behavior. Many people have had horrible lives but didn't prey on children. The man was no saint.
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AnteUp5 months, 3 weeks ago
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I thought it funny that the writer brought up Hitler.
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Over the weekend - when the slanted coverage would not
go away - I thought of Hitler too but considered it to
inflammatory to mention. I thought of Hitler being eulogized
as a great watercolorist - but "all the other stuff" being
ignored. If only they had had MTV - maybe that type of
distraction would have made an obit like that possible?
Do big bucks and celebrity (famous OR infamous) excuse ALL?
I find the interviews with those who's gravy train might
be effected by his passing disgusting. I have heard more
self-serving self-promoting (greed barely beneath the surface)
interviews than I'd care to see in a lifetime.
And poor old California, with their financial woes, has to
try to provide security for what will most likely be a circus
of those who need to see, and be seen tomorrow.Maybe the King
of unworthy celebrity would identify with them?-
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lvrofwolves5 months, 3 weeks ago
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Nobody is lifted so far up by themselves. There are a lot of people responsible for that, and of course they all want a peice of the fame and or $ associated with that.
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$ should excuse nothing.
I've never been a real fan of anyone, a fan of their work, yes, even tho I would NEVER agree that any entertainer or sports figure should receive several millions a year, while there are people who save lives every day that don't even make 1 mill.
I wouldn't have mentioned Hitler, not a bad artist and I'm sure anyone who would want his work is solely because Hitler did it and not because it's so great! and even if it was....no..Hitler should be defined alone. Probable child molesting and weirdness doesn't come anywhere near what Hitler was.-
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AnteUp5 months, 3 weeks ago
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I must admit to having idolized several people at various stages of my development.
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Sometimes it goes away - only a very few have stayed constant. I've been crushed when I was forced to give up a hero prematurely - like when I learned too much about
their true character - and it was so bad I couldn't do a mental rehab on MY image
of them..............just had to give them up. That's the pits - but we do try to be grown up.
No art critic here - but I heard Hitler's watercolors really were nothing to write
home about. I used that analogy only because EVERYONE is aware of his
other infamous "accomplishments". It strains credibility to think one could
narrowly focus on a few positive points in such a case - and avoid mentioning
the really obvious. I have been witness to that phenom for over a week now.-
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lvrofwolves5 months, 3 weeks ago
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I'll agree tho Hitler is an EXTREME example!
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I didn't hate MJ, I'll agree he was very talented, I just don't believe in putting anyone so high up, some people ( the person and the fan) probably forget they are human, and many feel they are way above the law.
Ok there's one person in the world that if he touched me I might faint, as a person tho? I probably would not like him all that much, his entertainment persona tho? mmmmmm!and I would be very upset if something happened to him.-
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lvrofwolves5 months, 3 weeks ago
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Till Lindemann, the front man (singer) of RAMMSTEIN!!
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlpDqAtj2d0=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLjc6lmAZTw=related
10 years and growing strong, if I ever get to go to a concert, I'll have to have smelling salts with me, wouldn't want to miss one second by fainting!! seriously the most beautiful man on earth IMO....makes me kinda feel like a little teenager all gooshy over someone, but he's exactly 1 month younger then me so I'm ok with that lol!!-
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AnteUp5 months, 3 weeks ago
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Oh my! I know my "little one" had some of their cd's but I had this awful
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feeling that they were neo-Nazis or something - never listened to them.
Okay - he's pretty muscular - not a bad face - but he looks kind of scary
to me. Hey - each to their own. I go for tamer heartthrobs - like James Taylor,
James Spader, Tom Hanks or Antonio Banderas. I did, however, have an erotic
dream about Keith Richards ONCE only. I was really worried about myself after
that!! Can you imagine - maybe I should have described it as a nightmare - lol!-
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lvrofwolves5 months, 3 weeks ago
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OH GOD....NO they are not neo nazis in any sense of the word,( there's 6 of them)and I'm pretty sure Tills Mom is Jewish.
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Keith Richards hahahaha.....well I've dreampt of stranger men!
Till is 6'3" 100% all man beef if you ask me.......drool drool drool ;-)
next up would be Javier Bardem
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jordan115 months, 3 weeks ago
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I didn't/don't idolize Michael Jackson (or anyone else for that matter). He was a cute kid, & I enjoyed some of his songs. Didn't consider him 'great' by any means, & had pity for him as a man who appeared to have lost his way. As for his "dark side", I'm not going to speculate or take the word of anyone else on that. I wasn't in the courtroom for his trial, and won't assume the jury made a wrong decision. I do however suspect the parents who took a pay off to stop the accusations.
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gdt9285 months, 3 weeks ago
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Jackson was a pedophile, an addict and a pervert. The fact that he was enormously talented does not change those facts one whit. This endless soppy, sobby hand-wringing over a man who, by all accounts, did himself in with an impressive portfolio of drugs and booze, is getting tiresome. I for one am sick to death of the endless media attention fawning over what a wonderful -- albeit misunderstand -- guy he was, and how very special his fairy land life was. After knowing what he had been doing with kids, the video tours of Neverland are nothing short of creepy, and the comments and behaviour of the rest of the Jackson clan equally so.
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Decent, good people who contributed far more to the good of humanity than Jackson ever did die every day, many of them in virtual anonymity. I'll save my thoughts and tears for them.-
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lg5 months, 3 weeks ago
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I too am astounded as the media has turned the death of MJ into a circus. The man was talented but he was not a hero or icon. What has happened to our nation that we use MJ to "look up to"...how sad. Even politicians who had strong comments before are now changing their stories. The man is gone. His music will live on but let us not ever forget that no fame can cover up the dark side of any man...whether they be black, white, yellow or any other color. What will happen to his children and the children he "befriended". May God have forgiven him and may he be able to rest in peace.
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epiphannyy5 months, 3 weeks ago
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I think it's unfair to label him as a pedophile, considering he was acquitted of those charges. I don't know if he did anything like that or not, but to label him a pedophile when the accusers very well could have been simply looking for money (that was the first course of action both accusers took - "Give me enough money and I'll go away"). The first time he paid, possibly because he was guilty but just as possibly because he knew that a trial would cost him far more, both financially and negative publicity. So he settled and it went away. The second child's father wanted a figure so high that it was better to fight it than allow himself to be extorted. He was acquitted. Yet he was forever labeled a pedophile, regardless of outcome.
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Now the man is dead. Isn't it time to let it go? I agree that coverage has been over the top and even his fans are becoming sick of the ad nauseum coverage, but it's time to let the nastiness go and recognize his accomplishments. Because as much as his detractors try and make him nothing but a pedophile, he still sold a phenomenal number of records during his career that spanned four decades....more than 750 million. He broke the color barrier on MTV. He elevated the music video to an art form. With his song We Are the World, he introduced the idea of huge collaborations of artists coming together for charity - leading to Farm Aid and other collaborations. There is not a corner of the world who doesn't know who he is. In his death, it's time to let go of the rumors and ugliness and celebrate the contributions he made to the world.
Or are we so petty that we can't handle saying a kind word when a negative word might exist to spoil it all?-
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gamahuche5 months, 3 weeks ago
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epiphanny - the point of the article was that there was non-stop round the clock adulation going on all round the world 24/7 and virtually NO mention that there was even a cloud in the sky in MJ's life.
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The BBC devoted the ENTIRE main news hour to MJ - it was as if the world had stopped turning..
This article brought a little reality back into the picture.
Tbere may well be a lot more to come at some point.
That he behaved inappropriately with young children is unquestionable and though I wouldn't myself have written exactly this article it was the first one that I saw that even hinted at the other reality.
Blind adulation did no favours to MJ in his lifetime - it doesn't do any favours to anyone in his death.-
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gamahuche5 months, 3 weeks ago
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I should add that I have far more pity for the deplorable private existence that he led - regardess of the specific behaviour with children - and that he was preyed on by so many people.
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Whatever led to the white skin obsession and the plastic surgery is beyond my comprehension.
As for the Jackson 5 - who was the beneficiary ot that caper - in the end its impossibe to say that it was MJ, isn't it? -
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epiphannyy5 months, 3 weeks ago
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I understand that. What I am saying is that in the wake of someone's death, it's the time to celebrate their existence rather than dwell on their shortcomings. Especially when his shortcomings were quite constantly harped on during the last decade of his life. What can be said now that hasn't already been said about the "clouds" in his life? I just don't see the need for it.
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Everyone has clouds in their lives. How many people memorialize their dearly departed by focusing on, or even mentioning, those clouds in the first days following the death? Most don't. It's considered rude and inappropriate to spit on a dead man. So why should that standard be different for Michael Jackson, just because he lived a life in a bubble? I think the negative side of his life was well enough covered prior to June 25, 2009. Now it's time to celebrate his accomplishments, in my opinion.
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