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Posted by: scott4261 5 months, 2 weeks ago
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scott42615 months, 2 weeks ago
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The writer of this article is the rector at the Episcopal Church I sometimes attend in Fayetteville, Arkansas. Father Lowell Grisham has been at St. Paul's since 1997. He is my priest.
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This is a history lesson of the colonial years leading up to the founding of this nation. The purpose of Jefferson's wall implicit in the First Amendment and our heritage of freedom of religion ....as opposed to state religion.
And FTA:
"It is time that our officially sanctioned celebrations of the National Day of Prayer be rescued from the narrow grasp of the Dobson's Focus on the Family industry, and their practice of excluding all but what they call a 'Judeo-Christian expression of the national observance,' whatever they mean by that. In America, everyone is welcome to pray...."
We don't have a state religion. We are a secular nation. Free to worship - or not worship - as we choose. And that's what freedom of religion really means.-
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Goppy5 months, 2 weeks ago
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Part of being a Modern Republican in America is a frustration at the influx of people to America with ideas and culture that is not familiar to them.
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The Evangelicals have spent decades upon decades spreading the Good Word, trying to convert everyone to believe in THEIR interpretation of Salvation.
NOW ... it appears as though they are in a losing situation as people flood into America who don't subscribe to their ideas of Salvation and interpretation of Righteousness.
Of course, given the propensity of America's Evangelicals to support ... Polluters ... Insurance Companies that fight against sick people ... and ... TOTURE ... (as all polls indicate) ... it's no wonder this movement has lost some steam.
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Nevron5 months, 2 weeks ago
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Actually there is no Jefferson wall implicit in the first amendment. The statement you are referring to regarding a wall of separation between church and state, was made in a personal and private letter on january 1 1802 written to Danbury Baptist Association of Connecticut. This was 13 years after the 1st Amendment was debated in the first congressional session of 1789.
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jordan115 months, 2 weeks ago
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The statement you are referring to regarding a wall of separation between church and state, was made in a personal and private letter on january 1>>>>
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That's correct, and when you have a document like the Constitution, which isn't explicit to every question that could possibly be asked, those charged with interpreting INTENT of the document must study the writings and actions of the founders (and especially the FRAMERS of the Constitution.) This is why Jefferson and Madison hold so much weight in SC interpretations of intent. That writing you speak of, is PART of how the conclusion was arrived at that there will be a separation. You will find MANY writings from both men which make it crystal clear as to their intent when they framed the Constitution.-
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Nevron5 months, 2 weeks ago
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Jefferson was ambassador in France when the Constitution was framed and only provided vague direction regarding the drafting of the Bill of Rights. The statement Jefferson made in his letter was only to assuage the Baptists fears that Congregationalism was going to become a national religion. It had nothing to do with framing the founding documents as historians have concluded. In fact Jefferson was not in favor of removing religion from the government. When he was Governor of Virginia he declared a day of "public and solemn thanksgiving and prayer to Almighty God". I can provide more information regarding this topic if you're interested.
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jordan115 months, 2 weeks ago
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Jefferson was an ambassador in France during the Constitutional Convention, and signing. Doesn't negate it was through his and Madison's efforts, that it was written at all. But the good things is, SC Justices know that, so your point is moot.
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Jefferson also wrote the declaration of independence, and spoke of "nature's god." NOT the christian god. You see, Jefferson was a deist. Not a christian. He had little use for organized christianity, but admired Jesus above all men. Wrote a bible of his own, leaving out all the nonsense, and allowing only Jesus words to 'speak.' Thought Jesus to be the world's greatest philosopher. Didn't consider him a deity. Look up 'Deist', and see their ideas on a higher power. OH! Saying 'god' merely spoke in the vernacular of the day, to describe that higher power. Jefferson's idea of god and yours are two different things.-
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jordan115 months, 2 weeks ago
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Nevron5 months, 2 weeks ago
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Jefferson was not present when the Constitution and First Amendment were drafted and ratified. Jefferson even said so himself in a letter he wrote to Dr Joseph Priestly on June 19th 1802. In it he stated "I was in Europe when the Constitution was planned and never saw it till after it was established."
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The specifics of what he may or may not have intended for the document are primarily hearsay and subject to interpretation.-
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jordan115 months, 2 weeks ago
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gawd. It never ends. Go study the man. I did, and you don't know WTF you're talking about. I suppose I could say it nicer, but right now I'm fed up with know it all's who know nothing, and refuse to educate themselves. You're on your own.
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Nevron5 months, 1 week ago
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As President, he also signed bills which apropriated financial support for chaplains in Congress and in the armed services as well as signing the Articles of War in which he "earnestly recommended to all officers and soldiers, diligently to attend divine services."
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Jefferson was not in favor of removing religion from the government, and used his Christian faith in government functions.-
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jordan115 months, 1 week ago
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Jefferson was not a Christian. Sorry. And Madison vetoed a Senate bill that would have given federal money to 'christian' schools. You remember Madison, and his role in writing the Constitution, right?
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And once again, Jefferson believed in a higher power, and believed it was for each man to figure out what that meant. He had no allegiance to organized religion. Period.-
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Nevron5 months, 1 week ago
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Thomas Jefferson said "I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrine of Jesus." He referred to himself as a Christian and was probably a Unitarian, but not a Deist.
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James Madison, the "Father of the Constitution" and fourth president of the United States, who spoke 161 times at the Constitutional Convention, was not a Deist. He was a devout Christian. Madison stated, "Religion [is] the basis and foundation of Government."-
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jordan115 months, 1 week ago
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Jefferson did not consider Jesus a god. He did however admire Christ's teachings. When saying he was a real christian, he was pointing out that organized religion followed Paul, and all the rest who corrupted Christ's teachings. He was saying they were NOT real followers of Christ's doctrines. You are grabbing on to words and taking them out of context. You can't understand Jefferson unless you study him. ALL of his words, not a few 'well chosen' ones.
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Nevron5 months, 1 week ago
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No answer? Don't worry I can wait until you find it for me.
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I am sure you are aware that Deists are those who believe in God, but don't define Him with sacred texts or organized religion. Ben Franklin was the only Deist who signed the Constitution, but he was also a devout Christian who called for public prayer and tithed to all denominations. And as I stated earlier Thomas Jefferson said, "I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrine of Jesus." Not the mark of a Deist.
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Nevron5 months, 2 weeks ago
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Actually Jefferson was a Christian. Several months after writing the Danbury letter he wrote another letter to Dr Benjamin Rush further revealing the true nature of his address to the Danbury Baptists.
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" My views.....are the result of a life of inquiry and reflection and very different from the anti-Christian system imputed to me by those who know nothing of my opinions," he wrote. "To the corruption of Christianity I am, indeed, opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian in the only sense in which He wished anyone to be; sincerely attached to His doctrines in preference to all others."
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Endoscopy5 months, 2 weeks ago
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He is correct up to the point of what the two constitutional statements are about. They prohibited any religious test as a requirement for public office. This was because the religious tests of the time were tests of which denomination the person belonged to. The same goes for the establishment clause. That would have elevated one denomination over the others like in Europe and the earlier days of the colonies. If you read the Federalist Papers you will fined that this was not to make it a secular nation but a nation where all Christian denominations were equal. Thus not making us a secular nation but a nation inclusive of all Christian denominations. Prior to this all nations had a denomination as their selected denomination that was allowed to practice. Read your histories about why many groups came here to begin with. Also in the Federalist Papers it is stated that the constitution will fail if the country becomes a secular nation.
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