The Truth about Taqiyya »
Posted By Dionys 4 months, 1 week ago in ReligionIt has become prevalent in Islamophobic circles to misrepresent the Arabic term taqiyya. Taqiyya actually refers to a controversial minority doctrine or dispensation that allows for an individual to conceal their faith when under threat, persecution or compulsion. Even those who believe that taqiyyah is possible under such circumstances place severe limits on the possibility and see it as an option that represents “the lesser of two evils”. The possibility of using taqiyya even in a situation where you are endangered is not accepted by all scholars or schools of law.
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jovial4 months, 1 week ago
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Dionys4 months, 1 week ago
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Doughnuts to dollars he shows up and says this article is a lie because that's all Muslims do.
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I thought a good summary might help people understand what it's about rather than the ranting Mutainia and Endo engage in that misleads people and essentially lies about lying. Catholics had something similiar when the Jesuits were being persecuted by the Protestants, called 'casuistry.'
The Jews used it as well while they were crypto-Jews under some Islamic rulers:
"Maimonides's father was a Rabbi and a judge of the rabbinical court and he decided to establish his residence for a time in Fez. He wrote an epistle encouraging the Jews to hold fast to their faith and to practice taqiyya (dissimulating their faith in periods of danger). The taqiyya is commonly practiced by minorities in Islam such as Shî‘ites and Sûfîs. The father of Maimonides comforted the Jews who were forced to outwardly profess Islam by assuring them that their real faith was the genuine belief concealed within their hearts. He urged the Jews to believe firmly that God would not change Jewish revelation by abrogating the Torah in favor of the Qur’ân. This latter idea will be developed by Maimonides in his Treatises. Eventually, the family was unable to continue hiding in Fez and decided to journey to Palestine before finally setting in Cairo, where there was a substantial Jewish population."
http://www.csulb.edu/~dsteiger/maimonides.htm
If someone's saying "I'm going to kill you if you admit to being a Jew" or " I'm going to kill you if you admit to being a Muslim," and then you say you're not a Jew or not a Muslim with your tongue, while holding in your heart the true faith of your tradition -- is it lying? Probably. But is it a forgivable lie? I don't think I'd call any Jew who said they were a Christian to escape Hitler a liar, so much as people who needed to keep that part of their lives hidden to live in a world that was so oppressively unfair that to tell the simple truth about their faith meant death for them and their families. -
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Natureboy4 months, 1 week ago
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Beyond that, everybody lies. Everybody. Lies are the social lubricant which keep the wheels of society turning.
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"Honey, does this dress make my butt look big?"
"How do you like my pie? I baked it from scratch!"
Our CEO has come up with a new mission statement. Here it is. Any comments?"
If you love your family and your significant others, and for that matter if you want to keep your job, you lie. You know you do. We all do. So stop pretending its something that spiritual folks don't do, and just get over it.
Of course, I still think Al Taqqiya is the name of Muitania's transexual lover. Saying otherwise is just, well, al taqqiya. -
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Endoscopy4 months, 1 week ago
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More al taqiyya on behalf of the Muslim idea of al taqiyya.
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The following is a key verse to understand this concept. They are from three of the accepted English translations.
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YUSUFALI: Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah: except by way of precaution, that ye may Guard yourselves from them. But Allah cautions you (To remember) Himself; for the final goal is to Allah.
PICKTHAL: Let not the believers take disbelievers for their friends in preference to believers. Whoso doeth that hath no connection with Allah unless (it be) that ye but guard yourselves against them, taking (as it were) security. Allah biddeth you beware (only) of Himself. Unto Allah is the journeying.
SHAKIR: Let not the believers take the unbelievers for friends rather than believers; and whoever does this, he shall have nothing of (the guardianship of) Allah, but you should guard yourselves against them, guarding carefully; and Allah makes you cautious of (retribution from) Himself; and to Allah is the eventual coming.
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Notice that the first part of the verse basically says that if a Muslim takes an unbeliever as a friend they are no longer a Muslim. (Whoso doeth that hath no connection with Allah) If however they guard themselves (conceal themselves, al taqiyya) or say things like they are friends and be nice to them (in other words lying to them) then they are good Muslims. The words al taqiyya are translated guard in this verse.
There were former Muslims in the US that talked about how they did this during the Gulf War. With unbelievers that were coworkers or "friends" they would act upset when the scuds hit targets but when it was just Muslims they cheered.
This site is part of the guarding Islam to the unbelievers.-
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Dionys4 months, 1 week ago
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Keep in mind, of course, that 'unbelievers' doesn't include Christians or Jews.
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But then follow the lies after the translation. It does not say that if a Muslim takes an unbeliever as a friend they are no longer Muslim. Anyone who can read English can see that. It does say that given the exact same circumstances in friendship one should choose a Muslim over an 'unbeliever' (the word in context refers specifically to a particular group of animists). Which seems reasonable in the context of the period this was written.
"If however they guard themselves (conceal themselves, al taqiyya) or say things like they are friends and be nice to them (in other words lying to them) then they are good Muslims."
This again is a lie. The only time taqiyya is acceptable is under the threat of imminent violence directed at a Muslim simply because they admit to being a Muslim. Thus if someone says "I'm going to kill you if you're a Muslim" and you say "I'm not a Muslim" on your tongue, but hold true to Islam in your heart, you will not be out of touch with God.
"The words al taqiyya are translated guard in this verse."
As I said. You have a hard enough time with English, much less trying to understand an English translation of an Arabic word you know nothing about in the context of a society you are intent on remaining ignorant about.
"There were former Muslims in the US that talked about how they did this during the Gulf War. With unbelievers that were coworkers or "friends" they would act upset when the scuds hit targets but when it was just Muslims they cheered."
Yet another unsubstantiated lie from the anti-Muslim web sites.
"This site is part of the guarding Islam to the unbelievers."
You're a communist because you say you're not a communist!!! McCarthy would be proud. -
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Dionys4 months, 1 week ago
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The other curious thing I note is that you continuously go back to Surah 3.28 over and over to "prove your point" (despite not knowing a lick of Arabic and lacking sorely in English skills), but don't mention the other Surah quotes regarding truth and lying:
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“And cover not Truth with falsehood, nor conceal the Truth when ye know (what it is). (Qur’an, 2:42)”
“If ye are on a journey, and cannot find a scribe, a pledge with possession (may serve the purpose). And if one of you deposits a thing on trust with another, Let the trustee (Faithfully) discharge His trust, and let him fear his Lord. Conceal not evidence; for whoever conceals it,- His heart is tainted with sin. And God Knoweth all that ye do. (Qur’an, 2:283)”
“O ye who believe! Stand out firmly For justice, as witnesses To Allah, even as against Yourselves, or your parents, Or your kin, and whether It be (against) rich or poor: For Allah can best protect both. Follow not the lusts (Of your hearts), lest ye Swerve, and if ye Distort (justice) or decline To do justice, verily Allah is well-acquainted With all that ye do. (Qur’an, 4:135)”
“But if anyone earns A fault or a sin And throws it on to one That is innocent, He carries (on himself) (Both) a falsehood And a flagrant sin. (Qur’an, 4:112)”
“...Help ye one another In righteousness and piety, But help ye not one another In sin and rancour: Fear Allah: for Allah Is strict in punishment. (Qur’an, 5:2)”
“O ye who believe! Stand out firmly For Allah, as witnesses To fair dealing, and let not The hatred of others To you make you swerve To wrong and depart from Justice. Be just: that is Next to Piety: and fear Allah. For Allah is well-acquainted With all that ye do. (Qur’an, 5:8)”
“O you who believe, you shall reverence GOD, and be among the truthful.” (Qur’an 9:119)
“Allah commands justice, the doing Of good, and liberality to kith And kin, and He forbids All shameful deeds, and injustice And rebellion: He instructs you, That ye may receive admonition. (Qur’an, 16:90)”
“It is only those who believe not in the Ayah (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) of Allah, who fabricate falsehood, and it is they who are liars.” (Qur’an 16:105)
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crghss4 months, 1 week ago
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So you mean like the 9/11 hijackers going to strip clubs and drinking alcohol the night before they flew planes into US buildings that murdered thousands of American citizens and others from around the world.
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Is this an example of taqiyya?-
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Mutainia4 months, 1 week ago
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Not exactly. From my understanding of Islam, IF you die in the cause of Allah (Jihad, which is killing infidels in the hopes of spreading Islam), your sins are forgiven on earth and you go STRAIGHT to what sounds like a slothful brothel in the sky.
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Dionys4 months, 1 week ago
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"So you mean like the 9/11 hijackers going to strip clubs and drinking alcohol the night before they flew planes into US buildings that murdered thousands of American citizens and others from around the world."
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When someone tells you that a group of supposedly Orthodox Muslims went to strip clubs and had alchohol before doing ANYTHING, perhaps the alarm bell that should be going off in your head is that no Muslim, especially an Orthodox Muslim, would be drinking alcohol and going to strip clubs.
Is it taqiyya when Christians fly planes over Iraq, drop bombs in "shock and awe" and blow up thousands of babies? Or is it justice killing hundreds of thousands of innocents because God told George Bush to invade Iraq? -
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icono14 months, 1 week ago
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taqiyya
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also of interest is the word 'Dissimulation'; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissimulation...... "However, the dishonesty comes from the employment of half truths — which involves omission of facts essential for a full description or account. In such instances, the ethics of such conduct is considered questionable at best.",
used to describe al Taqiyya.
It would seem that the 'true followers' of Allah were partying the night before 9/11 to give themselves the appearance of 'being normal', which in itself would bring into question how devout a Muslim they truly were, or to get a sneak peak of their version of heaven, although it could easily be argued that 'strippers' are not virgins. But as I understand it, an infidel stripper is equivalent to one Muslim virgin..... which again makes one wonder about their view of Muslim women.......
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Mutainia4 months, 1 week ago
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Muhammadans like "I'm not a Muslim, yet, desperately defend Islam" (Dionys...who is also possibly kingnorris) like to say Quran 3:28 is NOT talking about Muslims not being able to take Jews and Christians as friends, but, that they can't take them as HELPERS. But, this doesn't make sense because Quran 3:28 says, "unless you 'guard yourself against them'". So, you TAKE them as HELPERS if you 'guard yourself against them'? By the way, if it IS, as the Muslims say, "helpers", explain Quran 5:51? And, on TOP of this, WHY should the Muhammadan be cut off from Allah if the Muhammadan really DOES take the Jew or Christians as friends, I mean, "helpers"? Quran 3:28 basically says the Muhammadan WON'T be cut off from Allah IF the Muhammadan doesn't really take the Jew or Christian as "friends and helpers", which means, he won't be cut off from Allah if it's really a LIE (al taqqiya), FORCING the Muhammadan into being a hypocrite around Jews and Christians (anyone NOT a Muhammadan, actually). So, beHOLD the truth from someone I call the "gad fly on the big, giant, up-raised patooti in prostration", better known as "Christian Prince", who is a Native Arabic speaker and REALLY knows his Quran and Hadith:
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3uXqZr2RM3E-
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Mutainia4 months, 1 week ago
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Besides this, there is Quran 16:106 which says the Muhammadan can lie under compulsion. It would be nice if that meant only when a gun was to their head, but, how many Muhammadans, especially the Jihadist type with the bomb, is going to think it means dressing up like a pregnant woman or rabbi before stepping up on a bus in Tel Aviv? Also, there is the Hadith that has Muhammadan saying "war is deceit", and, according to Islam, anything NOT under Islamic territorial control is considered "dar al harb" (i.e. the abode of war). And, then there is:
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"(Verily) we smile for some people, while our hearts curse (those same people)." Sahih al Bukhari, v4, p45 publishers Uthmania, Egypt that Abu al-Darda' said he heard the
Prophet (s) state:
(unless you indeed fear a danger from them) meaning, except those believers who in some areas or times fear for their safety from the disbelievers. In this case, such
believers are allowed to show friendship to the disbelievers outwardly, but never inwardly. For instance, Al-Bukhari recorded that Abu Ad-Darda' said, "We smile in the
face of some people although our hearts curse them.'' Al-Bukhari said that Al-Hasan said, "The Tuqyah is allowed until the Day of Resurrection.'' Allah said,
Verily, we smile for some people, while our hearts curse those same people. (Sahih al-Bukhari, v7, p102) -
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ForrestPhelps4 months ago
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To: Mutainia
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And I propped this article initially as a good discussion of a subject that has come up on Propeller before.
Now I wish I could prop it again in the hopes that others will come upon this and learn a little bit more about Mutainia.
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Dionys4 months, 1 week ago
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"MutainiaMember blocked"
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I don't even have to look at your garbage to see that you're likely spreading your usual lies about Islam. Such as that suicide or murder will take Muslims to heaven (a lie, and one that has been disputed by all the great Muslim scholars for years over and over). Or that "Jihad" means holy war. Or your usual spew and misinterpretations of the Qur'an based on your interpretation of English translations. Your bias is apparent.
What is disturbing, or should be to you, is that your self-righteous spew and lies is most purely a representation of WHAT YOU CHOOSE TO SEE in Islam. Considering the horrors you project onto Islam, I feel sorry for any God that has to see inside your twisted head.-
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Mutainia4 months, 1 week ago
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OINAMYDDI: I don't even have to look at your garbage to see that you're likely spreading your usual lies about Islam.
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Mut: You NEVER looked at my "garbage", you just scanned it and called it lies without evidence, like you did just now.
OINAMYDDI: Such as that suicide or murder will take Muslims to heaven
Mut: If it's killing infidels for Allah, it's not considered such.
OINAMYDDI: (a lie, and one that has been disputed by all the great Muslim scholars for years over and over).
Mut: Thanks to al taqqiya, that can't be verified.
OINAMYDDI: Or that "Jihad" means holy war.
Mut: Thanks to al taqqiya, one can't tell the Muhammadan who views it as "inner struggle", from the one who steps up onto a bus in Tel Aviv dressed as a pregnant woman or Rabbi.
OINAMYDDI: Or your usual spew and misinterpretations of the Qur'an based on your interpretation of English translations.
Mut: Again, when I present from the Quran I might be using, show YOUR Quran in the RIGHT English translation, ok?
OINAMYDDI: Your bias is apparent.
Mut: My teaching of Islam is apparent, that is why YOU, O "I'm not a Muslim, yet, desperately defend Islam" are so freaked out here.
OINAMYDDI: What is disturbing, or should be to you, is that your self-righteous spew and lies is most purely a representation of WHAT YOU CHOOSE TO SEE in Islam.
Mut: SHOW where I've lied about Islam WITH the Quran you say exists, NOT the one's I've been using (i.e Yusufali, Shakir and Pickthal).
OINAMYDDI: Considering the horrors you project onto Islam,
Mut: What happened in Jakarta this morning? What happens in Iraqi Shiite market places a LOT? Looks like Islam is providing me with a TON of material. How come?
OINAMYDDI: I feel sorry for any God that has to see inside your twisted head.
Mut: Only twisted to YOU O "I'm not a Muslim, yet, desperately defend Islam", only twisted to you...well, to you and those under Islam who have to SAY it's twisted, or, have their skin burned off and replaced, daily throughout eternity in hell fire.
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Goppy4 months, 1 week ago
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Thanks for the story, Dionys ...
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Although ... I didn't need any convincing to know beforehand that Mutainia is a one man hate factory against Muslims.
This sort of behavior is a constant among many on the right.
As I've said before, the Modern Republican philosophy ... since Ronald Reagan 2 ... is based upon 'creating enemies'.
That's why you so often find paranoiacs and bigots aligning themselves with Republicanism.
I can't live like that. It goes against my entire spiritual outlook.
I would be one sad person ... if ... like Mutainia ... I carried a hate for so many people ... it's debilitating.
Plus, it's completely at odds with Christianity ... not that Mutainia is a Christian ... I'm just saying.
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icono14 months, 1 week ago
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Endoscopy4 months, 1 week ago
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And Goppy is at odds with Christianity. Mutainia came to his conclusions probably like me. I paid no attention to it and when 9/11 occurred I started looking into it. I was fed al taqiyya by Muslims on this site under various stories. They showed me all of the nice verses about how there is no compulsion in religion, In war they are not to damage buildings, trees, unarmed people, or women or children. I was told that a Muslim must not kill themself or lie. This sounded nice but ran against the reality of what was happening in the world. I started to read what was in the Quran, hadith, and Ibn Ishac. I read Robert Spencers " The Truth about Muhhamad" which was a biography of the Muhammad that Islam believes in. It was heavily footnoted with reference to the three documents I had been looking at. This book is what any good Muslim believe about Muhammad since everything comes from the Quran, Hadith, and Ibn Ishaq.
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Read that book and then say that Mutainia and I are wrong.
I expect that there will be posts against my post by Muslims crying about Robert Spencer. That is because he has made it his life's work to show what Muslims believe if they believe in their holy books. They get quite rabid over him and he mostly quotes the holy books of Islam..
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Mutainia3 months, 2 weeks ago
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I've got a question. How come when you type "Mutainia" into your web browser, the first page has this bogus story that, (tries to make me out to be a liar), right near the top on the first page? I mean, who is calling the shots here? I noticed that before Muhairi8 was bannished, his two stories he created that were out to TOTALLY try to show me to be a liar, were where this lying "The Truth About Taqiyya" story now is. Are Muhammadans ruling Yahoo? But, I can understand why the Muhairi8 stories would be there, because they had "Mutainia" in the title. THIS is the first story that DOESN'T. So, dear readers, WHO on Yahoo is trying to make me out to be a liar by putting THIS story on the front page of Yahoo when you type in "Mutainia"? TYPE "Mutainia" into your Yahoo browser, and, you will see that THIS (a story that has NOTHING to do with Mutainia, except that I, Mutainia, expose taqqiya a lot), is the FIRST thing you see. How come?
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Mutainia3 months, 2 weeks ago
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Thanks, Propeller, for replacing this Islamic taqqiya story with the story I put on Propeller about Dr Strangelove without the laughs. For a while there, I thought Muhammadans had GOTTEN to you to try to make me look like a liar about taqqiya whenever "Mutainia" was typed into the most common of web browsers (i.e. Yahoo), if you know what I mean. I still find it puzzling that out of ALL the stories I commented on, it was THIS story by Dionys that would show up on Yahoo when you typed "Mutainia" into it's web browser. Truly, I thought you had gotten a call from Dionys' people telling you that they knew where you lived, or something like that, IF you didn't put this pro-Islam/pro-taqqiya/anti-Mutainia story on when "Mutainia" was typed into the Yahgoo web browser. I know you replaced it with the Strangelove video on put on, but, still, it's raised questions within me. I'll be doing some cutting and pasting now being that this might mean I'll be bannished.
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Sincerely,
Mutainia
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Mutainia3 months ago
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So, let me get this straight. IF you want to learn if Muhammadans can or can't lie to you, go to Muhammadans on this website and they will say they can't lie? Do you think that IF a Muhammadan is given license to lie (thanks to Muhammad saying "war is deceit") a Muhammadan website is going to say, "yes, we Muhammadans can lie. Quran 3:28 and 16:106 allow us to lie"? I mean, do you think they will admit that they can lie when it's quite apparent that they can?
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Mutainia3 months ago
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So, let me get this straight. IF you want to learn if Muhammadans can or can't lie to you, go to Muhammadans on this website and they will say they can't lie? Do you think that IF a Muhammadan is given license to lie (thanks to Muhammad saying "war is deceit") a Muhammadan website is going to say, "yes, we Muhammadans can lie. Quran 3:28 and 16:106 allow us to lie"? I mean, do you think they will admit that they can lie when it's quite apparent that they can?
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