Rationing? Democrat says its happening already »
Posted By jovial 4 months ago in Political NewsThe debate over reforming the U.S. health care system has inspired a torrent of often conflicting statistics. Today, we look at three assertions made by Democratic Rep. Bill Pascrell of New Jersey. On July 28, 2009, Pascrell took to the House floor to counter assertions by Republicans and others that a Democratic bill under consideration in the chamber would lead to the rationing of health care. Pascrell's larger point was that rationing already exists today, just a different type – thanks to the financial barriers to coverage faced by millions of Americans. Specifically, Pascrell said: "Forty-five percent of Americans went ...
Read Full Story at politifact.com »
1134 Views Share Story 101 Comments Report
Submitted By:
jovial
Grew up In Brooklyn. Joined the Navy in 1976 stayed in 10 years. Aircraft Electronics tech. Worked for Major Govt. contractor then settled in California ...
Who Also Submitted: All »
RSS Join the Discussion
+ Add CommentShowing 100 of 101 Comments (view all)
-
88%
jovial4 months ago
-
-
43%
4cprocess4 months ago
This comment is below the standard viewing threshold View It »
First of all I want to make it clear that I'm not denying that people are dying in this country without healthcare or healthcare insurance.
Reply
Of the three statements discussed in this article one was "mostly true", one was "half true" and the last was designated as true. Seeing that we are dealing with the "truth" here as per your statement, let's just save the first two for future debate and deal with the the the one "truth".
"As many as 22,000 Americans die each year because they don’t have health insurance." This is an estimate from a credible source, that Pascrell cites correctly. We rated this statement true."
The information/reasearch used was supplied by a reasearch paper done by (Stan Dorn, "Uninsured and Dying Because of It: Updating the Institute of Medicine Analysis on the Impact of Uninsurance on Mortality," Urban Institute report, released January 2008) the Urban Institute. The Urban Institute is supposedly a "nonpartisan economic and social policy reasearch group" according to their website. In other words, a bureacratic agency, based in Washington, D.C. and mostly funded by the federal government and created under President Johnson in the mid 1960's.
Now that we have that out in the open, I assume we can continue. I feel it helps all parties to at least know where they are accumulating their information from.
Also a note at the end of his reasearch paper reads:
"The views expressed are those of the author and should not be attributed to the individuals listed above (short list of co-reasearchers), to the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation, or to the Urban Institute, its trustees, or its funders."
He attributes the "National Center for Health Statistics, preliminary death rates for 2005" as his primary source for the numbers and calculations he uses.
My questions are simply this:
cont. -
11%
Endoscopy4 months ago
This comment is below the standard viewing threshold View It »
A Democrat on the floor tells whoppers and we are supposed to just believe hat he says. What a crock. I have heard too many lies from the Democrats over the years. Both side do it but the Democrats always come out swinging with the greatest distortions when trying to gain the upper hand. Truth means nothing to them at those times.
Reply
-
-
92%
Bkumm4 months ago
This comment is below the standard viewing threshold View It »
I've been saying this ever since the whole health-care debacle began. Look, it's this simple. If we have a government run universal health care system two groups benefit immediately:
Reply
1. The poor. Especially the working poor.
2. Business owners.
What is less obvious is the other two groups that benefit:
1. The rich, especially those without a need for medical insurance already. They won't have to share services with anyone without an American Express Black card.
2. Everyone else. This is especially true when it comes to emergency care. Currently, those without medical insurance have two choices, go to the emergency room or die. With health insurance available they will no longer have to choose between those two options. Which will leave emergency rooms and emergency care more available for, well, emergencies.-
95%
Goppy4 months ago
This comment is below the standard viewing threshold View It »
Well said, Bkumm.
Reply
It's astonishing to me that there are supposed 'rational' citizens opposed to this.
I've also mentioned the massive cost to our American corporations.
As I've pointed out ... GM must add $1,400 to each car sold just to cover their massive Health Care costs.
This is detrimental in the global marketplace ... where all competitors have a National Health Care plan.
. -
29%
rbiii4 months ago
-
-
94%
Goppy4 months ago
This comment is below the standard viewing threshold View It »
By the way ... here's an assessment from our friends overseas ...
Reply
From the London Observer ...
"In a very un-British way, Americans expect the best and the shiniest from their medical providers, without fail. If President Obama is serious about reforming the U.S. system, he will have to break the news to "the American middle class that they can't have every treatment under the sun.
But that would be admitting that universal health care means "rationing," and that's a dirty word in the U.S. context.
Americans don't seem to realize that their health care is already rationed -- it is meted out only to the rich and employed.
To Britons, it is baffling that Americans refuse to consider a system that would require a few people to wait for the most expensive operations, yet they tolerate their current system, which "is fiendishly complex and full of loopholes, so even those with coverage can have it withdrawn."
Unfortunately, it looks as if the opponents of health care reform are winning. The Republican attack machine has cranked into gear, telling Americans that Obama's plan will involve government bureaucrats, not doctors, making decisions about their treatment."
. -
68%
antibrainwasher4 months ago
This comment is below the standard viewing threshold View It »
the angry white lynch mob of terrorist repugs thugs are targeting Dem lawmakers at town hall meetings, disrupting and shouting down any questions. Their form of democracy is to not allow any intelligent discussion. The terrorists faux noise sponsored and insurance monopoly funded trailer trash shouted down any officials trying to make a case for health care reform.
Reply
these are the same terrorist thugs who shot the abortion doctor, and threaten to murder Obama. Birthers, racists and morons. -
-
-
77%
mesodude4 months ago
This comment is below the standard viewing threshold View It »
Of course rationing is happening and so is bureaucracy (the other word the right uses to try to scare Americans and turn them against health care reform). Insurance companies spend billions in court to ration health care and that's why they're so desperate for tort reform. They want to ration healthcare dollars paid out to attorneys as well as to insurance policy holders. Their approach is basically, use big words and hope that people can't grasp the fact that the threats they allegedly will face if the government gets involved are no different from what they already experience with the insurance companies.
Reply-
36%
rbiii4 months ago
This comment is below the standard viewing threshold View It »
In the private sector, you have to answer to your shareholders or stakeholders (in a private company)... if you do not provide a service that there is a demand for, someone else will.
Reply
There's no such dynamic with a public option and the reason there is rationing today is because there are already two government run options in the market.
Real reform would be to make it easier for someone to step in and fill a void in supply.
1) That's how our economy is supposed to work.
2) That is the most efficient way for an economy to work.
Adding (in reality, expanding) a government option makes it harder for a smaller company to get into the market and capitalize on the void in supply.
-
-
82%
Performance_Racing4 months ago
This comment is below the standard viewing threshold View It »
Rationing of health care? How insensitive are these politicians and people? The only reason why health care is so easy to get for the insured is that so many are doing without it. Of course it would be a jolt to a system if everyone could get health care without going bankrupt. But my goodness, people need not suffer any longer...
Reply -
67%
primusdawg4 months ago
This comment is below the standard viewing threshold View It »
A "free market" is de facto an impossibility when the "product" in question means the difference between life and death, wellbeing/pain, or mobility/dependence. An unregulated health "market" gives us parasites who feed on public fears. We used to call them "snake oil salesmen". In our present system the insurance industry is the parasite, drawing off obscene profits by taking your dollar and reluctantly giving your doctor 65 cents. If it has to.
Reply
Change the terms and it becomes clearer. What if we stop arguing whether health care is a priviledge, or a right, or a commodity, but rather define it as public good? Like fire protection, or interstate highways, or sewage disposal. We pool our resources, get the benefits of economy of scale, and everyone pays equally (based on their ability) for equal access?
It's a popular tactic to cry "socialism" whenever an idea threatens to lower some fat-cat's take, but socialism has a pretty narrow definition: the government ownership of production. No one is talking about the government owning the hospitals or the drug manufacturers. We all pay for the FAA to steer the air travel industry; is that socialism? Would we be better off with each city hiring their own private regulatory body, with different protocols from airport to airport? How much more would it cost to travel then? How about negotiating with several local private fire brigades to get the best price when you smell smoke in your house? Fires spread; so does disease. A country without a way to care for its citizens' health is not civilized. It's a licence to gouge. -
33%
hrhsheeba4 months ago
This comment is below the standard viewing threshold View It »
Medicare and medicaid are a nightmare. We do need reform. Let the insurers fix thier systems. Yes HMO's are as close to national healthcare as I want to get. I know many Canadian MDs who came to the US because they couldn't run routine diagnostic tests that were needed. Start sending the medical bills of illegal immigrants to the country they came from we can't afford to fix and feed everybody. The founding fathers never planned on the government giving everyone free healthcare, free housing, free disaster releif You want free go to Cuba
Reply -
rckz3Comment removed: Spam
-
25%
jimdoze4 months ago
This comment is below the standard viewing threshold View It »
–verb (used with object)
Reply
1. to supply, apportion, or distribute as rations (often fol. by out): to ration out food to an army.
2. to supply or provide with rations: to ration an army with food.
3. to restrict the consumption of (a commodity, food, etc.): to ration meat during war.
4. to restrict the consumption of (a consumer): The civilian population was rationed while the war lasted.
The natural allocation of resources by price is not rationing. The underlying premise to this article is a nonsensical canard.
There are not infinite supplies of everything, ergo things have a price. Prices limit the resource to those who are willing to pay the price. That is not rationing. If supplies of everything were infinite, nothing would have a price. -
moonstream1Comment removed: Spammer, Hard Banned1 Reply
-
moonstream1Comment removed: Spammer, Hard Banned
-
50%
oldslowjim4 months ago
This comment is below the standard viewing threshold View It »
Why are we so worked up over this number of deaths, supposedly unnecessary, as compared to unnecessary automobile accident deaths. It seems to me that we should put our attention, and money, where it will do the most good.
Reply
With today's technology, there are many, many things that could be done to reduce drastically the number of auto accident deaths. Why not put our money into these? Why not massive changes to the auto industry?
Why the outcry over deaths of soldiers in Iraq, volunteers by the way, or over medical care when there are other areas where unnecessary deaths occur, and in greater numbers?-
50%
jovial4 months ago
This comment is below the standard viewing threshold View It »
Because we are paying for these deaths. Paying more than any other civilized country in the world. When we pay this much money we should get a good return. To get 22,000 dead people and pay the most money to obtain those results, is a tragedy. Automobile accidents are just that, accidents! If there were a lack of traffic signals and signs that were attributing to automobile deaths, we would do something about it. So why should we just sit by idly and do nothing in this situation?
Reply
-
-
0%
rawleighf4 months ago
This comment is below the standard viewing threshold View It »
With Global Warming, as before in world history, leaving us will come change in rain patterns, thus continental crop failure. as Africa and soon North America. One dry season and world famine will stare us in the face. There are to many passengers in the life boat. We are about 2 billion over populated on this Earth! and this time there may not be enough fish in the Seas to sustain mankind until recovery, We may turn out like Mars which features what appears to be ghost town remains. It ran out of ready available water and the planet heated tpo far up.
Reply -
-
50%
acheapmom4 months ago
This comment is below the standard viewing threshold View It »
We are RUSHING to throw in a NEW SYSTEM in -- months!
Reply
We planned better for D DAY---and this is a MUCH BIGGER MORE COMPLEX operation...
And because our country (like Chicago) is currently governed by mostly one party (which has a Well $$$$$$$$$$$funded$$$$$$$$$$$ and powerful media machine - except for a few maverick media types)....we will not be taking the TIME to rationally think out WHaT we are doing.
The Stimulus bill was (mainly) politicians cleaning out their inboxes of pet projects and dumping them quickly into the bill...that worked well (not).
And before the DEMS lose some of their power, they will JAM THIS BILL onto us.
And when the FEDS have MORE access to my records...will they be nice and not abuse that power?
Or---if I await a key decision on upcoming surgery---would I be better off to not loudly protest any of my government's policies???
(I know the last two comments I made push the edge a bit...but hey we are already in Big Brother and Big Sister land!!!)
Welcome to Chicago politics. Might makes right. -
0%
rckz34 months ago
This comment is below the standard viewing threshold View It »
The new Messiah is going to cover 50 million more people, cover pre-existing conditions, eliminate denials and copays. All this, without raising costs or rationing care.
Reply
Change water into wine? Feed the multitudes with a few loaves and fishes? Cheap tricks! Jesus move over...we've got the real deal here. -
0%
rckz34 months ago
This comment is below the standard viewing threshold View It »
We know Obama’s position on one vulnerable group…unwanted infants…abort ‘em.
Reply
Now with his healthcare “reform” we see he’s consistent with another vulnerable group…the elderly ill. Let’s not waste money on them…ration care and, as appropriate, euthanize. -
-
100%
Natureboy4 months ago
This comment is below the standard viewing threshold View It »
Not even touching on the real rationing.
Reply
When your insurance company's medical director says you can't have that surgery because it is investigational/experimental/treatment of a preexisting condition/not for a covered condition, you are a victim of the worst sort of rationing.
When you come down with a serious condition and your insurer cancels your coverage for bogus reasons, you are a victim of the worst sort of rationing.
This is death by denial. It happens every day in the USA.
More News
Politics Daily
Obama Gets Support for Afghan Plan, But His Overall Approval Rating Drops
Poll Finds Continuing Signs of Trouble for Reid Re-Election Bid
Chaos Theory - Heckuva of a Jobs Summit, Obama
U.N. Panel Will Investigate Controversial Leaked Climate E-mails
Henneberger and Corn on The Diane Rehm Show: Afghanistan, Jobs, and Much More
Add a Comment
Sign In With Your Propeller Account
Please keep your comments relevant to this story.
To create a live link, simply type the URL (including http://) or email address and we will make it a live link for you. You can put up to 3 URLs in your comments. Line breaks and paragraphs are automatically converted — no need to use <p> or <br /> tags.